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Evolution of Open World Games 1980-2021

Bragr

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So here's what I think: if you're going to try and sound like a basement nutjob with a Nintendo complex, why stop with 3D? or open world? Let's take your crazy to the next level. To that end, I propose the following and while I can't promise it'll get you that coveted Mario tag I can say for sure that it will cement your reputation as someone who obviously fucked an SNES to "lose" his virginity:

(you ready for this?)

Bragr's Next Big Overshare should be...

Mario 64 was the first man on the moon

Boom. Crowd gasps. Mic drops. Iwata smiles from above. And if the nerds try and prove you wrong....what is a "moon"? and a who can really say what a man is? Your position is unassailable. Your future on this forum secure.

You're welcome.
Keep going, keep trying to direct the conversation into something else so you don't have to back up your words. That Mario 64 was one of the first fully 3D games is a pretty common understanding. Even kids know this.
 

Bragr

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Of course Elite is fucking 3D.....

bbc.co.uk/news/av/technology-30576913

I also posted multiple other examples of pre Mario 64 3D open world games. Now shush.
This is not full 3D games you nutjob, it's 3D-2D hybrids and wireframe tech demos. Jesus Christ, none of those articles says what you think they do. Do you even know what it means to render something in 3D? if anything, you should argue for Star Fox.
 

Lanrutcon

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Keep going, keep trying to direct the conversation into something else so you don't have to back up your words. That Mario 64 was one of the first fully 3D games is a pretty common understanding. Even kids know this.

And yet here you are, unable to convince anyone. That can't feel good.
 

Eddie-Griffin

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Then what do you think is open-world? open-world games have an explorable space with multiple objectives, how do you describe an open world?
No open world games are open world games. Not running around empty space with a linear objective. Using your poor definition Busy 3D is open world now, and that game actually has more exploration than Mario 64 with it's connected wide open nothing.

Oh brother, here comes the self-righteous wingman that hasn't read the conversation. It's hard to argue reason when you and your friend argue that elite 3d was an open-world 3D game that outdates Mario 64. You know that this was before they could render 3D in a game in real-time right? oh fuck it, forget about it. Let me guess, you only play mobile games and this is the first time you heard about Mario.
From this it's clear you are one of those N64 kids that think N64 is more revolutionary than evolutionary, the latter being the actual fact.

No, those were not full 3D games. We are talking about fully realized 3D open-world games here. 3D as in a 3D camera, 3D enemies, 3D environments, you are completely off-grid here.
If Hunter isn't a full 3D game to you l, time for glasses.

Not to mention Mario 64 has a decent amount of sprites itself.
 

Bragr

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No open world games are open world games. Not running around empty space with a linear objective. Using your poor definition Busy 3D is open world now, and that game actually has more exploration than Mario 64 with it's connected wide open nothing.


From this it's clear you are one of those N64 kids that think N64 is more revolutionary than evolutionary, the latter being the actual fact.


If Hunter isn't a full 3D game to you l, time for glasses.

Not to mention Mario 64 has a decent amount of sprites itself.
I specifically mentioned multiple objectives in an explorable environment, don't twist my words to fit your own opinion. And I am not saying it's a fully open-world, but a hybrid, a platformer with open-world elements. Mario 64 and Ocarina of Time were open-world pioneers that inspired stuff in GTA and later on fully open-world games.

If Bubsy 3D has an open environment with multiple objectives, it certainly has some open-world elements. I never said the N64 was revolutionary, but some games on it were.

What Hunter game are you referring to here.
 

Eddie-Griffin

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I think the only ones who are convinced that Mario 64 wasn't a pioneering 3D game are you.
Literally just kids who grew up with Nintendo that ignored the other consoles and computers.

It was a nice tech demo that spawned some clones that died off by the end of the 90's. No open world game today was looking at the N64. It wasn't an open world game, and it seems you back pedalled from that a bit.

I'm not even sure you renner what your original argument was.
 

Bragr

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Literally just kids who grew up with Nintendo that ignored the other consoles and computers.

It was a nice tech demo that spawned some clones that died off by the end of the 90's. No open world game today was looking at the N64. It wasn't an open world game, and it seems you back pedalled from that a bit.

I'm not even sure you renner what your original argument was.
"Anyone who makes 3-D games who says they’ve not borrowed something from Mario or Zelda is lying — from the games on Nintendo 64." - Dan Houser, maker of GTA.
 

Eddie-Griffin

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I specifically mentioned multiple objectives in an explorable environment,
Which in Mario 64s case is not an open explorable environment, it's segmented levels with empty space to run around in but the level itself is not completed in such fashion. Croc has the same issue but with less empty space to run around in, neither are open world. You need a world for that to happen, like say Daggerfall which came out the same year. Segmented levels are not a "world" empty space in a level is not "exploration" and the standard way to complete levels is no different than any other generic 3D platformer, you go through the level to reach point a. Sometimes you can switch the objectives but it still plays the same way.

Sunshine is barely open world too for the same reasons. Something like say GTA or Jak is actually open world. If you can't tell the simple differences you can't be helped.

I am not saying it's a fully open-world,
Someone's running from a failed argument.

Mario 64 and Ocarina of Time were open-world pioneers that inspired stuff in GTA and later on fully open-world games.
Lol. Like I said Daggerfall came out the same year, I doubt many rpgs, especially Wrpgs are looking at the N64 for open world influence. Your pushing your own beliefs over reality.

But a hybrid, a platformer with open-world elements. Mario
There are no open world elements, it's all in your imagination.
 

Eddie-Griffin

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"Anyone who makes 3-D games who says they’ve not borrowed something from Mario or Zelda is lying — from the games on Nintendo 64." - Dan Houser, maker of GTA.
Yes I'm sure he speaks for all those PC 3D games that influenced most of the games out today.

Especially in the countries the N64 didn't sell in.

Good thing Daggerfall had Mario 64 to influ- oh that came out the same year? That throws that out the window.
 
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Eddie-Griffin

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"Anyone saying that Mario 64 is not the quintessential blueprint for 3D games and not one of the most important video game releases ever is flat out lying and likes pineapple on Pizza."

- God
I'll never get this weird take. Almost no 3D games take any design from Mario 64 or Zelda, I guess people just want to believe it. You have a few here and there but a lot of this also share influence with others, even outside of that most games today owe them nothing. Last I checked Skyrim influenced Zelda.
 
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I guess people just want to believe it.
Or you just want to believe that "almost no 3D games take any design from Mario 64 or Zelda" which is quite the take to say the least given that the influence is so shockingly obvious. I am pretty confident that many if not most game designers would call you out on this.
 

Bragr

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Which in Mario 64s case is not an open explorable environment, it's segmented levels with empty space to run around in but the level itself is not completed in such fashion. Croc has the same issue but with less empty space to run around in, neither are open world. You need a world for that to happen, like say Daggerfall which came out the same year. Segmented levels are not a "world" empty space in a level is not "exploration" and the standard way to complete levels is no different than any other generic 3D platformer, you go through the level to reach point a. Sometimes you can switch the objectives but it still plays the same way.

Sunshine is barely open world too for the same reasons. Something like say GTA or Jak is actually open world. If you can't tell the simple differences you can't be helped.


Someone's running from a failed argument.


Lol. Like I said Daggerfall came out the same year, I doubt many rpgs, especially Wrpgs are looking at the N64 for open world influence. Your pushing your own beliefs over reality.


There are no open world elements, it's all in your imagination.
Look at the whole conversation, I always said it was a hybrid open-world platformer, it's just you who try to slime your way into the middle with no context.

The size of the level is not how open-worlds are defined, in Mario 64, the levels are not blocked off, they are free-roaming environments. They are just smaller than modern open-worlds.

What you completely fail to grasp, is that the design in Mario 64 is the bedrock of any open-world 3D game. In Mario 64, the world around you is defined by anomalies, for example, you see a tree to jump on, a gathering of enemies, a mountain to climb, a corner to look behind, a box to jump on etc... All of this is in 3D, meaning you can explore around it, under, and over it. The levels also create various forms of goals, it tells you your objective from the get-go, but you can also gather coins, or take on other stars out of turn. The way the game set goals and manipulates the player and entice exploration was studied or "borrowed" by many who made 3D games at the time and was continued and advanced in Ocarina of Time, and become the standard of 3D exploration and is what GTA, action-adventure games and open-world games, in general, are built upon. Daggerfall features some of this, but is nowhere near as deep or complex in its design.

Daggerfall and PC games featured barely any gameplay similarities, it was rather crude to say the least, slow and stumbling, while Mario was a 3D character that could run, jump, swim and create sandbox level interactions and emergent gameplay in real-time, which is also the bedrock for open-world games.
 

Bragr

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Yes I'm sure he speaks for all those PC 3D games that influenced most of the games out today.

Especially in the countries the N64 didn't sell in.

Good thing Daggerfall had Mario 64 to influ- oh that came out the same year? That throws that out the window.
Hahaha keep trying to row the boat, I don't know how much more direct that quote can be.
 

Eddie-Griffin

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Or you just want to believe that "almost no 3D games take any design from Mario 64 or Zelda" which is quite the take to say the least given that the influence is so shockingly obvious. I am pretty confident that many if not most game designers would call you out on this.
It so shockingly obvious you can't mention them for every Ass creed there are 40 daggerfalls. that owe something to some PC/Amuga studio or a PlayStation game.

The only game engineers that would call me out would be console based one or some shareware devs trying to imitate console games.

Please tell me these games, it's not Skyrim, it's not MK11, It's not Hitman, it's not Halo, it's not Forza, It's not The Witcher III. If it's obvious you should be able to point out a substancial amount of games from many devs.

No one is saying they had no influence but it's just hyperbole. Most major A-AAA games today have little connection to japanese games at all. Outside of indies and obviously Nintendo consoles, you only have a handful of franchises and they have shared influence with other games to MORE SO in some cases.

Nothing I'm saying is controversial.
 

Bragr

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Almost no 3D games take any design from Mario 64 or Zelda,
Are you on drugs boy?

“It was like an epiphany, that’s what I would say: Mario 64 was an epiphany. I think Mario 64 is why Psychonauts exists and I think it’s the biggest single influence.” - Tim Schafer

"It defined the 3D platformer as a genre. The industry hadn’t really figured out 3D platforming yet, and here it was, a masterwork that set the standard." - Tom Hall

"I think everybody understood that it changed everything (Mario 64); everybody was paying attention." - Michael John (insomniac)

"Still my favourite game of all time. I still have vivid memories of all the different levels. The control is still pretty much unrivaled. It convinced me that games were art." - Gabe Newell on Mario 64
 

Eddie-Griffin

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Hahaha keep trying to row the boat, I don't know how much more direct that quote can be.
Yep that one guy.

Crazy how the Daggerfall thing flew over your head. You might need some help with that obsession. It literally throw the quite out the window and shows one guy projecting means nothing.

The size of the level is not how open-worlds are defined, in Mario 64, the levels are not blocked off, they are free-roaming environments.
Actually they are blocked off. You are literally losing your mind live.

The whole point of the castle is to segment the levels there is no "world" no one same is calling Mario 64 an open world game. It's just you.

Having roaming environments has nothing to do with a game being open world, a connected world however, does. You are trying to act as if some empty running space in a level qualifies for open world despite it not being related to the objective for the stage, which requires you to complete the level in normal fashion. It's no different than Crash at that point, the only differentiator is you have more space to run in a level. Ok, that's nice and all but that's not "open-world."

Daggerfall would be open world for an example that released the same year. Jak would be another that would serve as a later example.
 
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Nothing I'm saying is controversial.
No, it's just stupid. I'm not interested in a discussion with someone who thinks Mario 64 needs to be compared to racing games and fighting games to be eligible for being a huge influence on the 3D gaming space.

Saying that Mario 64 wasn't a huge influence on 3D games is like saying Nirvana wasn't a huge influence on the music world.
 

Bragr

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Yep that one guy.

Crazy how the Daggerfall thing flew over your head. You might need some help with that obsession. It literally throw the quite out the window and shows one guy projecting means nothing.


Actually they are blocked off. You are literally losing your mind live.

The whole point of the castle is to segment the levels there is no "world" no one same is calling Mario 64 an open world game. It's just you.

Having roaming environments has nothing to do with a game being open world, a connected world however, does. You are trying to act as if some empty running space in a level qualifies for open world despite it not being related to the objective for the stage, which requires you to complete the level in normal fashion. It's no different than Crash at that point, the only differentiator is you have more space to run in a level. Ok, that's nice and all but that's not "open-world."

Daggerfall would be open world for an example that released the same year. Jak would be another that would serve as a later example.
That one guy made GTA III lol.

Jesus, you just ignored my whole reasoning for why it's designed was influential. GTA V is also "blocked off". Have you played Daggerfall? it's large, it was good back in the day, but if you think GTA and Assassins Creed was based on Daggerfall you are missing some marbles.
 

Eddie-Griffin

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Are you on drugs boy?

“It was like an epiphany, that’s what I would say: Mario 64 was an epiphany. I think Mario 64 is why Psychonauts exists and I think it’s the biggest single influence.” - Tim Schafer

"It defined the 3D platformer as a genre. The industry hadn’t really figured out 3D platforming yet, and here it was, a masterwork that set the standard." - Tom Hall

"I think everybody understood that it changed everything (Mario 64); everybody was paying attention." - Michael John (insomniac)

"Still my favourite game of all time. I still have vivid memories of all the different levels. The control is still pretty much unrivaled. It convinced me that games were art." - Gabe Newell on Mario 64

So if I post quotes from PC dev influenced do you lose the argument or are you going to move goal posts?

Most of TODAYS games came from influences ranging from game by Origin, Looking Glass, Old EA, 80'S Activision, Sierra, and many others.

2 of your quotes even specify platforming, which is mostly an indie genre currently, Crash excluded (which wasn't influenced by either of those two games) I dont know how to make this more obvious for you.

Where is the Zeldaoot/Mario 64 game design in:

Elder Scrolls?
Witcher?
Hitman?
MK?
Half life?
Theif?
Fallout?
Halo?
Forza?
GT?
Mechwarrior?
Persona?
Quake?
Tomb Raider?
Marathon?
Myth?
Mirrors Edge?
Resident Evil?
Deus EX?
Baldies gate?
Mass Effect?

I mean this list can be much bigger. Nothing I said is controversial, most major and sub major releases have no design elements from those games. Even at the time this was true for PC, and half true for PS1.
 

Eddie-Griffin

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No, it's just stupid. I'm not interested in a discussion with someone who thinks Mario 64 needs to be compared to racing games and fighting games to be eligible for being a huge influence on the 3D gaming space.
No that's you being a coward and running from your own argument. I mentioned multiple genres and you caimed it was the blueprint for "3D game design" either realize your claim was trash or back it up.

You can pull your hair out until your bald it just hyperbole.

I dont expect you to actually find games like I just did above, I expect you to suddenly disappear because I know you can't back up such a nonsensical argument.
 

Eddie-Griffin

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That one guy made GTA III lol.

Jesus, you just ignored my whole reasoning for why it's designed was influential. GTA V is also "blocked off". Have you played Daggerfall? it's large, it was good back in the day, but if you think GTA and Assassins Creed was based on Daggerfall you are missing some marbles.
There are many games based off Dagger Fall that aren't GTA or AC.

Same with Morrowind.

Same with Oblivion.

Same with Skyrim. Wait..oh my goodness Zelda was inspired by that one. Oh no your reality...
 

Eddie-Griffin

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Anyway poor arguments aside when most of today's biggest games (which are primarily western) have dna outside of the N64(shock) and even for the time in many instances, this is all a distraction from Brags foolishness calling Mario 64 an open world game, which no one agreed with.

In fact the user who agree with him on the above delusion also has not called Mario 64 an open world game.

So if anything that's a wrap.

And yet here you are, unable to convince anyone. That can't feel good.
Welp. Poor Brag.
 
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When Mario 64 released in 1996 it immediately took the gaming world by storm. What followed were were 2 generations full of „collectathon“ games. I don’t think I need to clarify why Banjo-Kazooie or Spyro the Dragoon were influenced by Mario 64. It’s obvious.

However, there are several aspects that made Mario 64 so important for 3D gaming in general:

  • A big focus on freedom with non linear level design and non linear progression with stages that had several objectives, making exploration a key factor.
  • The precision in control was unparalleled back then and plenty of devs took notice. Mario’s set of moves was diverse, refined and everything controlled very fluently. It was Mario 64 that made any 3D game with a seeable & controllable character look ancient in comparison. It was a showpiece for movement in 3D games and conveniently showed why analog sticks are the way to go. It set the standard.
  • Dynamic camera system in a time when most games had static camera systems. While the camera was anything but perfect, it was still something unique back then.


I dont expect you to actually find games like I just did above, I expect you to suddenly disappear because I know you can't back up such a nonsensical argument.
Ah, do you mean your very narrow and one dimensional point of view that only serves to downplay the influence of Mario 64? Mario 64 set the standard for 3D analog movement, so I think you can figure it out by yourself how huge that is. Silly comparisons with fighting games and racing games won't change that in the slightest and neither does listing of 10 million games that supposedly took nothing from Mario64.
 

CleverCaviar

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Have to admit, the first thing I did was CTRL-F for "Hunter" and was surprised it wasn't in the list. I'm not super confident it was the first, but it's one of the earliest I remember.

There were other early 3D games like that around the 16bit era, but that one I remember because of the map, like a (very) early Assassin's Creed archipelago map.

 
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Eddie-Griffin

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  • A big focus on freedom with non linear level design and non linear progression with stages that had several objectives, making exploration a key factor.
  • The precision in control was unparalleled back then and plenty of devs took notice. Mario’s set of moves was diverse, refined and everything controlled very fluently. It was Mario 64 that made any 3D game with a seeable & controllable character look ancient in comparison. It was a showpiece for movement in 3D games and conveniently showed why analog sticks are the way to go. It set the standard.
  • Dynamic camera system in a time when most games had static camera systems. While the camera was anything but perfect, it was still something unique back then.
You can't say Mario 64 set standards if most of the industry doesn't use those standards outside colkectathons.

I will say this again, you have nothing to counter over 20-30 years of gaming I listed. Most of modern gaming has no connection to that game. Most big games give there influence to games on PC.

Nothing I'm saying is wrong, you just want to project your feelings.

Meanwhile several action adventure games including an Elder Scrolls game cite tomb Raider (same year) for influence, which only released on PC.

Meanwhile a ton of modern developers constantly cite Bethesda, Looking Glass, Old EA, and tons of other pc devss as influence from the late 90's until now, where those games dominate the market.

The issue is you refuse to move on. You are making yourself believe more than 5% of games use any design philosophy from Mario 64. Even back then it barely had an influence on the PC side of things, but I'm talking about now where the PC design philosophy dominates 90% of the gaming market consoles included, outside indies.

You'd have to be nuts to deny this, what you're doing is lying and trying to spin this as me saying the game didn't have some influence, that's not the issue, the issue is your imagining that any significant portion of the industry can be traced back to that game design outside a handful of franchises.

I have no idea why you think this. Where were you 8 years ago when japanese fans were crying about japanese gaming being dead and them not wanting to have their favorite studios westernized with unfamiliar design philosophy?

Did you just pretend that didn't happen?
 
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It's not though. It only looks good. The gameplay is still whack as fuck.
And almost everything that makes open World games great is awful in CP2077. It's actually unbelievable it's the same company that made one of the best open World games ever just a few years before with The Witcher 3.
 

Eddie-Griffin

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Have to admit, the first thing I did was CTRL-F for "Hunter" and was surprised it wasn't in the list. I'm not super confident it was the first, but it's one of the earliest I remember.

There were other early 3D games like that around the 16bit era, but that one I remember because of the map, like a (very) early Assassin's Creed archipelago map.

Robocop 3 came out the same year. Both ahead of their time in 3D.

Being able to drive or fly around the city was big at the time. Amiga version had that dumb dongle though. Dont think the other versions did curiously.
 
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You can't say Mario 64 set standards if most of the industry doesn't use those standards outside colkectathons.
That is not true as analog movement in a 3D space isn't some exclusive feature for games outside of collectathons. Camera and character movement in a 3D space are some of the most important things when developing most 3D games. Mario 64 set the standard. Absolutely.

You also seem to have this weird obsession that influence only counts when A) the influence is obvious and comes in form of the same genre or same basic concepts, nullifying that influence also can be nuanced or vicarious, and B) that influence has to be direct. Let me put it this way: person A influenced person B, person C never heard of person A but is influenced by person B, meaning that person C is indirectly influenced by person A.
I will say this again, you have nothing to counter over 20-30 years of gaming I listed.
There is only 1 thing I need to counter, which is the significance of 3D movement and camera control for 3D games. Mario 64 set the standard for both. I don't need to go in detail why Forza is influenced or not influenced by Mario 64. Thats completely besides the point and doesn't change the standards that Mario 64 set.
. Even back then it barely had an influence on the PC side of things, but I'm talking about now where the PC design philosophy dominates 90% of the gaming market consoles included, outside indies.
A) not true B) your point is way to PC centric to considered in any way objective, so much for projecting feelings. You are very clearly biased.
 
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Lanrutcon

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Irrelevant
Have to admit, the first thing I did was CTRL-F for "Hunter" and was surprised it wasn't in the list. I'm not super confident it was the first, but it's one of the earliest I remember.

There were other early 3D games like that around the 16bit era, but that one I remember because of the map, like a (very) early Assassin's Creed archipelago map.

Nice.

I think the only ones who are convinced that Mario 64 wasn't a pioneering 3D game are you.

Oh, now we're arguing about it being a pioneering 3D game. Realised your initial assertion was completely stupid and changed your story...again.
 

Bragr

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Oh, now we're arguing about it being a pioneering 3D game. Realised your initial assertion was completely stupid and changed your story...again.
lol stop being so desperate to offend because you are losing the argument, you don't know what pioneering means do you, let me educate you:

"involving new ideas or methods"

Alas, a pioneering game is a game and innovates and breaks new ground.
 

Bragr

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So if I post quotes from PC dev influenced do you lose the argument or are you going to move goal posts?

Most of TODAYS games came from influences ranging from game by Origin, Looking Glass, Old EA, 80'S Activision, Sierra, and many others.

2 of your quotes even specify platforming, which is mostly an indie genre currently, Crash excluded (which wasn't influenced by either of those two games) I dont know how to make this more obvious for you.

Where is the Zeldaoot/Mario 64 game design in:

Elder Scrolls?
Witcher?
Hitman?
MK?
Half life?
Theif?
Fallout?
Halo?
Forza?
GT?
Mechwarrior?
Persona?
Quake?
Tomb Raider?
Marathon?
Myth?
Mirrors Edge?
Resident Evil?
Deus EX?
Baldies gate?
Mass Effect?

I mean this list can be much bigger. Nothing I said is controversial, most major and sub major releases have no design elements from those games. Even at the time this was true for PC, and half true for PS1.
And you talk about moving goalposts, what a fuck are you even talking about now? why the hell are you listing random games? You are so desperate to not come off as a fool that you start to drag in other genres and games. The discussion is about Mario 64 and what its design principles meant for open-world games.

You seem to be trying to make some weird-ass argument that Mario 64 didn't inspire every 3D game in history, and Crash Bandicoot (wtf)? which has nothing to do with anything. You have already proven yourself to be clueless, and this is starting to become sad and creepy.
 

Bragr

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There are many games based off Dagger Fall that aren't GTA or AC.

Same with Morrowind.

Same with Oblivion.

Same with Skyrim. Wait..oh my goodness Zelda was inspired by that one. Oh no your reality...
I have said nothing about games "based off" Daggerfall. I am saying that the action-adventure games that become open-world games were influenced by Mario and Zelda to some degree, because the developers said so themselves. And I am well aware that Breath of the Wild took some inspiration from Skyrim, just like the next Elder Scrolls will take some inspiration for Breath of the Wild, considering Todd Howard thinks that game improved elements of Skyrim. What does that have to do with anything of what we are talking about?
 

Lanrutcon

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lol stop being so desperate to offend because you are losing the argument, you don't know what pioneering means do you, let me educate you:

"involving new ideas or methods"

Alas, a pioneering game is a game and innovates and breaks new ground.

Congratulations! You finally got it right. Mario 64 was indeed a pioneering game. It only took you changing your story 3 times after being repeatedly proven wrong to start making sense. Think back at that idiot who claimed Mario 64 was the first 3D game....you've grown so much since then. I'm glad we've established that you can be taught.
 

Eddie-Griffin

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And you talk about moving goalposts, what a fuck are you even talking about now? why the hell are you listing random games? You are so desperate to not come off as a fool that you start to drag in other genres and games. The discussion is about Mario 64 and what its design principles meant for open-world games.

You seem to be trying to make some weird-ass argument that Mario 64 didn't inspire every 3D game in history, and Crash Bandicoot (wtf)? which has nothing to do with anything. You have already proven yourself to be clueless, and this is starting to become sad and creepy.
No the claim was "3D game design" you are trying to move from the conversation because like the other guy you know you can't back up that crap.

Crash bandicoot has a lot to do with the thread because half the shit you used to claim Mario 64 is open world applies to Crash except running around wide empty space. Which you could add to crash but stretching it's levels 25ft in every direction.

Bottom line is you dont know what an open world game is and have been struggling to back up your nonsense.

I have said nothing about games "based off" Daggerfall. I am saying that the action-adventure games that become open-world games were influenced by Mario and Zelda to some degree, because the developers said so themselves. And I am well aware that Breath of the Wild took some inspiration from Skyrim, just like the next Elder Scrolls will take some inspiration for Breath of the Wild, considering Todd Howard thinks that game improved elements of Skyrim. What does that have to do with anything of what we are talking about?
See this is why you keep losing these arguments because you dont think. That's why you ask dumb questions like what does Skyrim have to do with the conversation when TES is an example of a series not influenced by the two games you are parading.

Very few action adventure games take from Zelda oot or Mario 64, that's false no matter how you spin it. You can't grab a few names citing them as influence and then decide ever dev did the same.

Look at games influenced by looking glass games or Star Control etc. or Tomb Raider, one of the TES were inspired by that, I can name developers to.

The issue is you're trying to push your delusion beyond reason. Those games influenced a select some games, keep it in their circle, dont make up influence.
 

Bragr

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Congratulations! You finally got it right. Mario 64 was indeed a pioneering game. It only took you changing your story 3 times after being repeatedly proven wrong to start making sense. Think back at that idiot who claimed Mario 64 was the first 3D game....you've grown so much since then. I'm glad we've established that you can be taught.
Oh, so now pioneering is the right word, even though you bashed it in the post above?

Please, tell me where I said that Mario 64 was the first 3D game ever, and after that, please tip-toe yourself out of this thread.
 

Lanrutcon

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Oh, so now pioneering is the right word, even though you bashed it in the post above?

Please, tell me where I said that Mario 64 was the first 3D game ever, and after that, please tip-toe yourself out of this thread.

Jesus, you're right. You've changed your story so much I had to go back and check what idiocy you spouted to start this.

You said Mario 64 was an open world game. Oh God it's like I'm reading it for the first time all over again and it's still the stupidest thing I've read this year.

And now after you've flip flopped across multiple posts we're at pioneering, which is an improvement at least.
 

Bragr

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No the claim was "3D game design" you are trying to move from the conversation because like the other guy you know you can't back up that crap.

Crash bandicoot has a lot to do with the thread because half the shit you used to claim Mario 64 is open world applies to Crash except running around wide empty space. Which you could add to crash but stretching it's levels 25ft in every direction.

Bottom line is you dont know what an open world game is and have been struggling to back up your nonsense.


See this is why you keep losing these arguments because you dont think. That's why you ask dumb questions like what does Skyrim have to do with the conversation when TES is an example of a series not influenced by the two games you are parading.

Very few action adventure games take from Zelda oot or Mario 64, that's false no matter how you spin it. You can't grab a few names citing them as influence and then decide ever dev did the same.

Look at games influenced by looking glass games or Star Control etc. or Tomb Raider, one of the TES were inspired by that, I can name developers to.

The issue is you're trying to push your delusion beyond reason. Those games influenced a select some games, keep it in their circle, dont make up influence.
Yes, its 3D design was hugely influential, as I showed by just a few quotes. I just backed it up a 100 times over by the developers themselves. They literally say they are inspired by it, and you say "no, you are wrong, you aren't." Jesus.

What a hell are you talking about Crash for, if you could stretch it? what? what if you could stretch Mario 64? or Daggerfall? man...

I have been stating what an open-world game is multiple times. All you have to say is "it's big and wide", which is as useful as speaking gibberish. GTA and Creed and Far Cry are all artificial closed-off areas just like Mario 64.

Why ain't Mario 64 and Ocarina of Time influential just because they didn't influence the design in The Elder Scrolls? what? do you think they have to inspire every game ever to be influential? and Skyrim didn't influence BotW, I checked, and apparently, that's not true. You seem to believe that I think Mario 64 inspired every game under the sun, which has no basis in reality or anything I said, and why this is getting creepy and weird.
 

Bragr

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Jesus, you're right. You've changed your story so much I had to go back and check what idiocy you spouted to start this.

You said Mario 64 was an open world game. Oh God it's like I'm reading it for the first time all over again and it's still the stupidest thing I've read this year.

And now after you've flip flopped across multiple posts we're at pioneering, which is an improvement at least.
Aaaalright. The only argument you have is that I have flopped, and then you discover that I never flopped and you still cry and moan and stalk me like a teenage bitch. About time you get on your broom and fuck off.
 

Lanrutcon

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Aaaalright. The only argument you have is that I have flopped, and then you discover that I never flopped and you still cry and moan and stalk me like a teenage bitch. About time you get on your broom and fuck off.

You're adorable when you try and talk like an adult.
 

Eddie-Griffin

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That is not true as analog movement in a 3D space isn't some exclusive feature for games outside of collectathons. Camera and character movement in a 3D space are some of the most important things when developing most 3D games. Mario 64 set the standard. Absolutely.
For consoles (in some cases) sure, but you're projecting beyond that, this is were your fanaticism comes in. You accuse me of being PC centric when I am actually being neutral. Computers had been moving in 3D space in various genres 10 years before the N64 was new. Your lack of accepting that is due to you not wanting to acknowledge that a significant part of the gaming market has taken no design cues from the game nor oot.

You can tell the bias in your argument by ignoring the clear design relation over the years, look at TES as an example, it had nothing to do with either, most games it influenced tok nothing from either, and obviously coming out in 96, it wasn't influenced BY either. Yet the core design philosophy on Daggerfall is still the same now among it's sequels and influenced games just evolved. Including those that inspired TES. That's already hundreds of games in multiple genres.

or vicarious, and B) that influence has to be direct. Let me put it this way: person A influenced person B, person C never heard of person A but is influenced by person B, meaning that person C is indirectly influenced by person A.
Your example is terrible. This only works if Mario 64 is Person A, and for most computer games Mario 64 is not person a.

Again it's like a spoiled kid, your accusing me of something your doing. You are dismissing the development of computer games in 3D and are artificially deciding nothing mattered until Mario 64, yet I just gave you an example using just one game that puts hundreds of games out of Mario 64s influence, with again, just one game.

You are basically trying to force your personal feelings down people's throats instead of being open to other possibilities. You decided at some point most games owe Mario 64 even when it doesn't make sense and can be proven, and when challenged you call bias because you can't back it up.

Now unlike you I actually do know some games on computers had influence from Mario 64, especially cross platform developers who also published on consoles, but most dont. Just like Mario 64 may have had great influence on many PS1 games but there's also a good quantity that doesn't either, including Mario 64's main rival of the time.

But you are trying to make things one way only and it's sad. This is why you receive ignoring the many games I listed and reducing them to a free to make it seem like I'm directly only comparing Mario 64 to Forza. It shows you're not ready for discourse. You clearly dont have the mentality for it.

A) not true

Reality knocks and says hi. The vast majority of the A-AAA gaming releases are software influenced by western computer gaming design philosophies. This is well know, it's been acknowledges by industry staff, veterans, and the press, it's led to 21+ years of current domination in the industry, we also have japanese fans crying for 7 years about their favorite devs "westernizing" because they tried adopting the same design philosophies because it was seen as necessary to succeed. We have had important figures discuss the major shift to Computer design being dominant.

If you want old design philosophy you'll find that mostly with indies or budget digital releases. This attempt to expand the N64 is frankly sad, A desperate attempt to keep the system relevant. But how far can you stretch that when only one country was the console a success?

Only a biased person who can't let go and can't handle an open discussion will react as you do. Outside a select number of franchises, which continues to shrink, there's very little shared design philosophy between the last 21+ years of dominant games, and Mario 64 or OoT. Even back then there was little influence, and Tomb Raider arguably was the console focused franchise that was more influencial on PC given how it released on PC and did pretty well. But even that paled in comparison to bigger influences.

But in modern times? You'd have to be brain dead to believe there's much Oot or Mario 64 dna out there. The part of the industry least influence by such games is now dominant and had been dominant in the gaming industry for over 2 decades. The evidence is overwhelming and indisputable.

Ignorance or bias can't really save you here.
 
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The issue is you're trying to push your delusion beyond reason.
The biggest delusion in this thread is the claim that Mario 64 isn't one of the most influential games of all time.

No the claim was "3D game design" you are trying to move from the conversation because like the other guy you know you can't back up that crap.
Just because I don't have the need to make this a list war doesn't mean I didn't back up what I've said.

The 3D analog movement that Mario 64 brought to the table alongside its camera control are key to developing most 3D games. Those two aspects are essential and still get used to this day. If you can't see that you are honestly blind.

Since you are so confident that Mario 64 only influenced collectathon platformer games, where is this plethora of games that came before Mario 64 that did 3D analog movement and camera control?

There were stepping stones but it wasn't before Mario 64 when 3D gaming finally hit strong. And before you mention any of that: First-Person games do not count, as the way of movement is completely different then to any 3D game with 360 degree movement with a visible character. There is also no need for a dynamic camera system in first person games. 3D-Fighting and 3D-racing games also don't count, obviously.

Just like Mario 64 may have had great influence on many PS1 games but there's also a good quantity that doesn't either, including Mario 64's main rival of the time.
Crash works completely different and unlike Mario 64 where 3D movement is key to the experience, Crash can easily be played with a standard d-pad and doesn't offer a sandbox like level design. It hardly influenced 360 degree movement in 3D games.

Computers had been moving in 3D space in various genres 10 years before the N64 was new. Your lack of accepting that is due to you not wanting to acknowledge that a significant part of the gaming market has taken no design cues from the game nor oot.
And here is how you are wrong. I didn't claim that Mario 64 is the first 3D game or that there weren't 3D games in various genres before. I am entirely talking about the movement of characters in a 3D space with a visible character and a dynamic camera you can control. Mario 64 set the standard and only a completely deluded blithering jackass would deny the significance of Mario 64's impact and downplays its influence with random comparisons and talking points that were never part of the discussion.

If you want to die on that hill, sure do that, but you need to accept you will be very lonely on that hill. You are also logically inconsistent. You are grasping at every straw you can find while accusing me of saying things I never said. Thus, I will move out here. Have fun with your e-boner. You know nothing about video game development.

“Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.”​


― Mark Twain
 

Beelzebubs

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I'm gonna stop replying in this as a few people have absolutely no fucking clue it seems, that 3D open world games existed well before Mario 64 despite the proof of it listed in the video that is at the start of this very topic....

Y'all need to do some research or even read the bloody topic in question. There is literally a video showing you're talking out of your ass....
 

Eddie-Griffin

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Mario 64 isn't one of the most influential games of all time.
Look your clearly an immature little guy who can't think for himself often, hence you quoting other people words, and it's clear you want to expel your beliefs out instead of accepting reality, and that's a lonely, lonely way to live.

Let's just be perfectly honest you have no clue what your talking about. Not even a little bit. You have no knowledge of the industry outside consoles for that era, not even that, just N64.

Just this one line proves this. You are so desperate that you made up an argument no one made. No one said Mario 64 wasn't influencial, the argument was it, AND OoT did not influence the exagerrated amount of games you are implying(especially since many devs never even played the game). Those are two completely different arguments, you decided to be so full of it that you made up an argument no one made. No where, go back and read every post in order, it doesn't exist.

The 3D analog movement that Mario 64 brought to the table alongside its camera control are key to developing most 3D games. Those two aspects are essential and still get used to this day. If you can't see that you are honestly blind.
Computers had camera and 3D movement for years including analog.

Your ignorance of this does not mean other games didn't exist because you got a real 3D game for the first time post Starfox SNES, welcome to the club.

Was that important for consoles? In many cases yes, was it important for PC? No. Mario 64 wasn't even the first console game with analog movement. But sure, it was a newer thing for consoles, but for some dumb reason you apply this to PC which had 10 years of 3D games before Mario 64 and more breakthroughs in 3D happened the SAME YEAR as Mario 64.

The only reason why you are even arguing this is because you dont know, but decided to argue what you wanted to believe instead. For some reason you think 3D game movement on PC started with Mario 64. This is what we call confirmation bias. (Also ignoring Tomb Raider which actually released on PC the same year and is a commonly cited influence)

Since you are so confident that Mario 64 only influenced collectathon platformer games,

Didn't say this, out of context. Also you ignoring the multiple times I said it had influence, just you were speaking hyperbole over the extent.

There were stepping stones but it wasn't before Mario 64 when 3D gaming finally hit strong.
Plenty of 3D games on computers, you clearly are just spreading fanboy drivel.

I get it, SNES only had games like Starfox and similar, so to YOU the N64 was a big jump. Why are you applying this to PC? That even had its own 3D platformer the same year?

Also lol "doesn't count", someone's argument is falling apart. A ton of TPS and third person action games use similar camera/movement as an FPS. Even so, you're acting like all PC had was FPS in 3D proves you know nothing about PC. You played nothing but the N64, why are you even arguing? You already lost. Name the genre and I can give you 3D games same year or before Mario 64.

Dont make such claims if you can't back them up.

Crash works completely different and unlike Mario 64 where 3D movement is key to the experience, Crash can easily be played with a standard d-pad and doesn't offer a sandbox like level design. It hardly influenced 360 degree movement in 3D games.

Lol, you have the whole quote for context and still messed up, I never said Crash influenced anything, I said Crash was an example of a game that didn't take any influence from Mario 64

But anyway please let me know which genres you believe "that count" and which you think PC didn't have before Mario 64 so the facts can beat you in the head. It's time to educate the N64 youngin definitively.
 

Eddie-Griffin

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I'm gonna stop replying in this as a few people have absolutely no fucking clue it seems, that 3D open world games existed well before Mario 64 despite the proof of it listed in the video that is at the start of this very topic....

Y'all need to do some research or even read the bloody topic in question. There is literally a video showing you're talking out of your ass....
Apparently 3D in general only started on N64 launch in 1996 now...lol.
 
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Computers had camera and 3D movement for years including analog.
As long as you are completely misinterpreting what I'm saying, nothing you will say further down the line can be taken seriously as you are not even getting the most basic notions.

So go ahead. I want all those games with 3D analog movement and dynamic camera control on PC and consoles. List them! Spare me your novels. Where are those games with 3D analog movement and dynamic camera? Where are those alleged facts?
(Also ignoring Tomb Raider which actually released on PC the same year and is a commonly cited influence)
Tomb Raider has digital movement and the camera can't be used when moving the character. The original didn't even support a mouse and was entirely played with a keyboard. You have just proven that you don't know jag about what I am talking about. You can only save your argument when you list the plethora of games that had 3D analog movement with a a visible character and a dynamic camera system, released before Mario 64. So go ahead. As long as you don't do that, anything you say is gibberish and Mario 64 remains one of the most influential and impactful game ever.

And first person games don't need analog control or dynamic cameras to work and thus most FP games didn't have that. It's simple. You don't know what you are taking about. Again. Not a failing argument. Just you don't getting it. Again.

Apparently 3D in general only started on N64 launch in 1996 now...lol.
Conveniently ignoring what I have said:
And here is how you are wrong. I didn't claim that Mario 64 is the first 3D game or that there weren't 3D games in various genres before. I am entirely talking about the movement of characters in a 3D space with a visible character and a dynamic camera you can control.

You just have proven to be dishonest.