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eSports Pro hits out at Call of Duty skill based match making

-Arcadia-

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Glad to see some callouts happening in this thread. I really do think a lot of these ‘content’ ‘creators’ are whiny babies that just want to stomp an entire lobby and have their fun come at the expense of everyone else’s.

We have a similar problem over on Fortnite — people more interested in 20 and 30 kill games on players that never had a chance, than playing fair and facing players of their own skill. They’ve been sobbing profusely for over a year, about some light, forgiving matchmaking being added, only to be ignored, which has been kind of wonderful.

That said, without being overly familiar with how CoD works, I really think there should be some kind of unranked place to just blow off steam and relax. Something where you don’t have to be your best, or an anything goes, casual mode.
 
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soulbait

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Imagine an NFL player whining about how competitive the games are and he wanted to play against college or high school kids instead, in a game of pickup at a local park. I would imagine most people would ask why did you work so hard to become a pro if all you want to do is smear random kids at a park. How does that show off your skills or show how you should get paid to play a game?

I stopped playing competitive online games a few years ago. They just lost their fun too me. There were too many people too worried about the KD ratio and whatever rank they are in. When the original Modern Warfare beta came out, I played it non-stop, and was usually on top with kills. Full game came out, I had a pretty good advantage at first, due to knowing how to play, but then slowly my true skill began to show: somewhere in the middle. I didn't care. Didn't bother me I was no longer on top of kills for my team. I usually walked away from matches somewhere in the middle. In MW2 (when I remember them first tracking assists), I was usually again in the middle with kills but usually had the most assists. I enjoyed being a "support" role.

Then people started to talk a lot about KD and that would be their focus. Team play began to go away, where people were more focused on their own personal stats versus just having fun in the game. Every game mattered due to being able to brag about KD and whatever. That focus away from team play to worrying about their own stats really killed it for me. Even with my friends who I played with, their focus was shifting to. Now being on the "support" role, middle skilled player people would question why even play. It just got dumb.

I like the idea of skill based matches, because then people like me who are, admittedly now due to how long it has been since I have really played, lower skilled or do not have the time to dedicate to really get good and still have a fun experience with the possibility to come out on top for their team. Having the possibility to win, due to the games being more competitive, actually makes it feel more casual to me, as someone who's goal is not to have the best stats. I can play, knowing I have a chance to win, but if not I don't care. However, going into match after match knowing you are going to get slaughtered is not fun.

I think skilled match making should be there and should be there by default due to this. It will just make the games more fun/enjoyable for many more people unless your only goal is slaughter the entire game. But yeah, there should be a way not be matched on skill, if you want to. Make it opt-in and everyone that wants to play that should be able to.

I guess what I am saying is this: I agree with the whiny pro player that the option should be made available. However, it is really sad that it is a pro player who is complaining so much about this. You get paid to play and be good at a game. You only get better by playing those who are at least as good as you or better. For me, I would be happy to just play with people around my same skill set, who really do not care about their rank and just want to have fun. Maybe then I will hop back into competitive shooters.
 
Oct 26, 2018
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What a tosser. Maybe he's just not as good as he thought...
Exactly.

Most of these esport gamers I bet are crap if they are put in a match where the other side are good random gamers or clans.

You don't have to be a pro esports gamer to be good at games.

I used to play COD a lot and used to rack up good stats and 70% win % even playing lone wolf with total randoms. Everyone thinks they are god.

Then you get put into a match where the other team is partied up and all kind of good. Then you end up losing and instead of going 20-3, you end up struggling at 12-10 even though you feel like you're trying even harder than a normal random match.

Problem is esports guys don't understand is that if they are that good then you get put up against similar good players.

It's not like pro baseball teams play against Single A minor league teams.

But since gaming is digital and the game can throw you into SBMM or random matches with noobs, all these big shots want to go 30-0 against noobs.
 
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-Arcadia-

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One of the most pathetic Esports players ive ever seen.

What an absolute knob and dick.

In my experience, at least shooter players, they’re all cut from the same cloth. Whining about everything that doesn’t favor them.

The concerning part is when their streaming fanbases start parroting them, then developers roll over and actually remove some really fun or nice stuff to satiate them.
 
Oct 2, 2017
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If all high skill players are in the same class, then they are all in the same boat. What's the problem? Maybe he should start over if it is too hard and wants to play against less skilled players.
 

Magenta Mage

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The data these companies have shows that people play the game more and longer with these systems in place. If you play a game longer I would have to imagine you're having some degree of fun. So whether players realize it or not, they are in favor of SBMM.

When you create a game that sells to millions and millions of people, you shouldn't cater it to the 0.1% like Scump and other pros.
 
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Bolivar687

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I agree there should be a ranked playlist, with SBMM possibly scaled back a bit in unranked lobbies. However, I do think a lot of these competitive players are bummed out they can't go 50-5 against total n00bs, but it is concerning to hear the same concerns about sweaty lobbies from regular players on GAF.

However, I think Ayoli's article nailed what's really going on here:

Now from what I've read in this patent, the matchmaking seems study everything about your playstyle and what you like/dislike. So that would include game modes, maps, guns, what you're good against, what you're bad against (playstyles, weapons, etc.) They it keeps this information about you in a database with everyone else information. This is their first step.

Next, it appears they try to "coach" you into improving by placing you against your weaknesses. Not necessarily people at your skill level. So for example, if you're great against SMGs and ARs, but struggle against snipers and LMGs, it seems to use the information collected to potentially place you in matches against other players that have snipers and LMGs as their strengths. So while it doesn't really mean those players are better than you skill wise, it still places you against your weaknesses. That's why it always feels like you're going against a sweaty team every single match. Those enemies are simply just good at what you struggle against.


I have no information to actually back this next claim but I believe it to be mostly true. I've noticed that if you intentionally change your playstyle every single match, the matchmaking gets confused and you end up doing a whole lot better than you would if you just played the exact same way every time. I suggest we all try this out and see how it may affect your gameplay and experience. So far I've done about 100 matches and have done well in a vast majority of them. I've only lost 16 matches and have gone negative in 9. (K/D not ELIM/D)

I think this is probably true, as I have always said that I have few issues with the SBMM in MW2019 and Cold War, and that previous CoDs, most notably Black Ops 3, were much sweatier for me than these new games. I have my top 5 loadouts using each of the 5 primary weapon classes, with the perks and equipment evenly distributed as well. That's how I've always played Call of Duty, to maximize the range of challenges I'm completing to get bonus XP and rank up fast. I switch it up every game, play aggressively, and have not had problems getting chopper gunners on Core and gunships in Combined Arms. That said, I don't think people shouldn't be forced to play a certain way to enjoy the game, so hopefully some adjustment is made to placate the community. With how much products rely on influencers these days, I can't imagine Treyarch ignoring the pro community much longer.
 
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Jun 26, 2008
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Can anyone tell me why I am 10 comments in any anyone gives a shit about what Overwatch does?

I left call of duty cause sbmm was dumb. I saw how I would have to play the game and that was not going to be fun. I just want a game of tag with quick reflexes on top and maybe coming up with 1 trick per match to make you feel dumb.
 
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Magenta Mage

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I thought this theory was actually on point:

I wanna talk about how the match making actually works and why many of you are misinformed.

I don't mind SBMM that much although I do wish, at the end of the day, they'd separate playlists and stop disbanding lobbies after every match.
Keep in mind that a patent existing has no connection whether that method or technology is actually used in the real world. We don't have any evidence one way or another whether this is actually in use. Companies patent things all the time that never get used.
 
Oct 26, 2018
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I agree there should be a ranked playlist, with SBMM possibly scaled back a bit in unranked lobbies. However, I do think a lot of these competitive players are bummed out they can't go 50-5 against total n00bs, but it is concerning to hear the same concerns about sweaty lobbies from regular players on GAF.
I don't get why all competitive games don't have both ranked (SBMM) and unranked. Maybe it splits the community too much and server costs ad maintenance zooms up.

Gamers can flip flop between their competitive mindset and gaming in a drunken stupor with noobs in unranked.
 
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Nixonomics

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I think most pub stompers are gonna agree with what the esports player is saying and those who get pub stomped are going to feel justified in trash talking someone better than them. I'm a competitive person and I can't stand SBMM in casual playlists. Sometimes you just want to unwind - and with SBMM if you're a good player in the top percentile you won't have that option. Good luck playing some off-meta, shits and giggles loadout in a lobby full of sweats. If I want to have close matches I'd queue a ranked playlist.

The good old days of god lobbies are behind us.
 
Jan 11, 2019
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In my experience, at least shooter players, they’re all cut from the same cloth. Whining about everything that doesn’t favor them.

The concerning part is when their streaming fanbases start parroting them, then developers roll over and actually remove some really fun or nice stuff to satiate them.
That's what I hate the most as well.

Me & Mista Mista have very similar opinions when it came to the "Pro League" of Rainbow Six Siege and how they ruin the game's meta because, like you said, they whine so much and have things changed/removed from the game.
 
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Hairsplash

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a creative way to eliminate Cheaters... Cheaters (aim bots, etc) are too good, thus they ultimately get put with other cheaters... (sadly, the pros have to play with cheaters...)

well you could make it “real” and only have death matches... get killed and you can only play again in a new day... it would get real boring, fast, everybody just sitting around hiding because they are afraid to get killed.
...just like real war...
 
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BattleScar

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Imagine having to work hard at the job you do so that people will pay you... man must have been a struggle for him up to now where he didn't have to try to get paid for something.
If they're Pro eSports players and they stream for a living, I'm inclined to agree with this.

I go to work every day wishing people would make my life easier. Unfortunately, as is the case with everyone in the world, were stuck in ELO hell and have to work hard for 9 hours every day.

What would be really bad, is if you're finishing a hard day of work at another job, and you want to kick back and relax and play some casual COD, only to get absolutely fucking assblasted by some pro eSports streamer who's running around trying to make some montages.
That would be fucking annoying.
 
S

SLoWMoTIoN

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"I’m not trying to play Scuf wielding game fuel chugging demons with szn in their psn on Miami TDM."

If you are over 12 and speak like this quit the internet.
 
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Grinchy

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This guy (Scump) is genuinely insane at the game. He doesn't need to "git gud" :messenger_tears_of_joy:

I think it's hard to really get his point without understanding where he's coming from. He's a streamer who also plays on a pro team. So most of his time playing the game, he's playing high intensity scrimmages and matches against other pro teams in tournaments. When he's not doing that, he's just looking for a way to go around spraying out some camo grinding and talking to the chat, reading donations, ect.

But there's no option for that. He gets out of a scrimmage and ends up in a lobby with the highest ranked regular players on the internet. If they did a ranked playlist, all those people who think they're heading to COD Nationals can play each other there. Is he right or wrong? You can decide that, but some of the responses here are clearly from people who don't know him or understand his underlying point.
 

rodrigolfp

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Theres no need for sbmm if theres a ranked playlist. Youll match up with people who are similarly ranked and thats the end of that. Cod is a casual shooter..its pickup and play. Every single match shouldnt feel like a championship game.
There is no need to CoD to exist but it is cool that it exists. Point being that options are always good. And there is not such thing as casual game. It's the player that is casual or not.
 
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What a tosser. Maybe he's just not as good as he thought...
He's been playing competitively at least since MW3... no, the matchmaking is just bad.

There is no need to CoD to exist but it is cool that it exists. Point being that options are always good. And there is not such thing as casual game. It's the player that is casual or not.
Lolno, it's a casual game and casual games do exist. Developers pander to new/bad players.
 
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rodrigolfp

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He's been playing competitively at least since MW3... no, the matchmaking is just bad.


Lolno, it's a casual game and casual games do exist. Developers pander to new/bad players.
haha no. It's the player that plays casually or not a game.
 
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QuantumZebra

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So basically what he's saying is that because he can't steamroll inferior players, he's upset and might lose money for being exposed. These 'Pro' gamers are the real casuals and crybabies.

Hate to see it.

I mean yeah that's kind of how I see it.

Off the top of my head I always see YTers gameplay, but no indicator that its ranked (unless I'm missing it).

I guess unless they're Twitch streaming the entire time you won't see what mode they're in or whatever.

World's smallest violin in that case.
 
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soulbait

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This guy (Scump) is genuinely insane at the game. He doesn't need to "git gud" :messenger_tears_of_joy:

I think it's hard to really get his point without understanding where he's coming from. He's a streamer who also plays on a pro team. So most of his time playing the game, he's playing high intensity scrimmages and matches against other pro teams in tournaments. When he's not doing that, he's just looking for a way to go around spraying out some camo grinding and talking to the chat, reading donations, ect.

But there's no option for that. He gets out of a scrimmage and ends up in a lobby with the highest ranked regular players on the internet. If they did a ranked playlist, all those people who think they're heading to COD Nationals can play each other there. Is he right or wrong? You can decide that, but some of the responses here are clearly from people who don't know him or understand his underlying point.

He could always just play another game....

Last I checked, games are not made directly for streamers. Sure, they have added options in them for streamers because it helps the publicity of the game. However, their main consumers are not professional streamers or pro gamers. The skill based matched making is there for most people to have an enjoyable time playing and keep players engaged. Dying all the time without a chance of winning? You stop playing. Constantly mopping the floor and winning? Sure, fun at first, but gets boring after a while. These systems are in place to keep gamers interested so they can sell more.

Sure, he is coming from a different perspective, but his perspective is a small minority overall when compared to everyone else who plays the game.

I am in favor in them adding a mode where players can opt-out of skill based match making and then be matched with anyone else who has. Sure, why not? But coming from someone who is whining because he cannot just kill a bunch of noobs, while still being paid to play the game, well I don't care about that. As I mentioned before, it is the same as a pro NFL player complaining about the competitiveness of the games he is in and he wants the ability to play high school and college kids in a pick up game in the park so he can smear them and not have to play as hard. Who cares.
 

fourfourtwo

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Imagine an NFL player whining about how competitive the games are and he wanted to play against college or high school kids instead, in a game of pickup at a local park. I would imagine most people would ask why did you work so hard to become a pro if all you want to do is smear random kids at a park. How does that show off your skills or show how you should get paid to play a game?

A fairly bad analogy considering that even NFL players are allowed to want to have fun in their downtime. Do you think Thomas Brady or Peyton Manning want every pickup game in the local park to be as intense as the Superbowl cup final?

And nobody is asking for entire lobbies where it's 1 pro versus complete noobs - a mix of skill levels would be sufficient (as it used to be - groups of friends were able to play together, it's not exactly a huge thing to ask for).

I can't even play in my living room anymore without getting demolished - sitting back on the sofa with the console hooked up to the big TV without a WiFi connection is a massive disadvantage compared to playing at my desk in an office chair with a low input lag monitor and hardwired connection.
 
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iconmaster

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"I’m not trying to play Scuf wielding game fuel chugging demons with szn in their psn on Miami TDM."

Paging Neil Gaiman, you're needed in translation services.
 

Tygeezy

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A fairly bad analogy considering that even NFL players are allowed to want to have fun in their downtime. Do you think Thomas Brady or Peyton Manning want every pickup game in the local park to be as intense as the Superbowl cup final?

And nobody is asking for entire lobbies where it's 1 pro versus complete noobs - a mix of skill levels would be sufficient (as it used to be - groups of friends were able to play together, it's not exactly a huge thing to ask for).

I can't even play in my living room anymore without getting demolished - sitting back on the sofa with the console hooked up to the big TV without a WiFi connection is a massive disadvantage compared to playing at my desk in an office chair with a low input lag monitor and hardwired connection.
I've seen nba players play pickup games at the gym and i can assure you they aren't looking to drop 100 points on scrubs.
 

Ten_Fold

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Yep just like SF, once you get to a high enough rank everyone will be decent/pro level. That’s why when I try to start a new account with a new character I fight tons of smurf accounts.
 

White-fire

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What a tosser. Maybe he's just not as good as he thought...
So basically what he's saying is that because he can't steamroll inferior players, he's upset and might lose money for being exposed. These 'Pro' gamers are the real casuals and crybabies.

Hate to see it.
What a fucking manchild.

WHAAAAAH PEOPLE ARE GOOD AT GAME

WAAAAAAH fuck off ✌👍

You guys all missed the point of this thread so bad, and your lack of understanding and even human decency to insult someone you don't even know on the internet is hilarious. These people didnt do anything to you yet you insult him as if he threatened you :messenger_tears_of_joy:. Chill out guys, the dude is a pretty good pro player. Thats the point, there are times where he just wants to play the game, and understand this cause you might understand the point of his comment, "casually". He doesn't want to sweat in pro games and scrims, and then sweat in public lobbies. These pros actually like ranked playlists believe it or not, since they are competitive people by nature, and failing is part of thier job, and they fail a lot. But there are times in which they just want to not have to put all of their focus and peak performance in a game. Thats why they want a ranked mode for when they want that style of gameplay.
 
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wipeout364

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I think it’s interesting that the proponents of no SBMM defend their argument( their negative experience) by giving an example of what I would argue is the experience the majority of players had before SBMM. I now have games where I am on the top of the leaderboard for my team on a semi regular basis, that would happen extremely rarely before SBMM.
 
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CeeJay

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This guy (Scump) is genuinely insane at the game. He doesn't need to "git gud" :messenger_tears_of_joy:

I think it's hard to really get his point without understanding where he's coming from. He's a streamer who also plays on a pro team. So most of his time playing the game, he's playing high intensity scrimmages and matches against other pro teams in tournaments. When he's not doing that, he's just looking for a way to go around spraying out some camo grinding and talking to the chat, reading donations, ect.

But there's no option for that. He gets out of a scrimmage and ends up in a lobby with the highest ranked regular players on the internet. If they did a ranked playlist, all those people who think they're heading to COD Nationals can play each other there. Is he right or wrong? You can decide that, but some of the responses here are clearly from people who don't know him or understand his underlying point.
If that is truly the way he feels then he could have a chill alt account which he can intentionally do goofy stuff with and avoid getting matched with other pros. But, that's not what this is about is it, he wants easy lobbies that he can own.
 

manfestival

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I feel like people are taking his words and his position way out. The guy is saying that he just wants a chance where he can play casual and not have be feel like he is obligated to play at 100% all of the time. Clueless people here are acting like Scuf is bad at this game despite being a pro and actually good at this game. Does this come across as whining? Yeah unfortunately but I also get where he is coming from. I am actually pretty good at the game(I can post my stats if someone cries enough but rather not). It does feel like a drag going into a lobby knowing you can't even experiment with guns or builds cause you have to min/max in order to not get blown out(hurrrr durrr losing is fun rite). I totally get it and he totally could have presented his case way better. I do agree with his point and what others have said in here. There should be ranked and unranked. I am slightly torn since I do not find the SBMM to be awful since there is a ton of give and take. Which does allow for the intended effect of getting blown out by a squad of tryhards one match and feeling like a god the next. I do not consider myself close to his level but definitely in the upper echelon of CODMW.
They will eventually add COD League like they did with CODMW and most will eventually go there. It is just unacceptable for a triple A game to not have something of this fashion at launch.
 

cormack12

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I feel like people are taking his words and his position way out. The guy is saying that he just wants a chance where he can play casual and not have be feel like he is obligated to play at 100% all of the time. Clueless people here are acting like Scuf is bad at this game despite being a pro and actually good at this game. Does this come across as whining? Yeah unfortunately but I also get where he is coming from. I am actually pretty good at the game(I can post my stats if someone cries enough but rather not). It does feel like a drag going into a lobby knowing you can't even experiment with guns or builds cause you have to min/max in order to not get blown out(hurrrr durrr losing is fun rite). I totally get it and he totally could have presented his case way better. I do agree with his point and what others have said in here. There should be ranked and unranked. I am slightly torn since I do not find the SBMM to be awful since there is a ton of give and take. Which does allow for the intended effect of getting blown out by a squad of tryhards one match and feeling like a god the next. I do not consider myself close to his level but definitely in the upper echelon of CODMW.
They will eventually add COD League like they did with CODMW and most will eventually go there. It is just unacceptable for a triple A game to not have something of this fashion at launch.

Out of interest whats a good kdr these days for a console player? Good as in 'much better than average but not quite elite'
 

diffusionx

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I feel like people are taking his words and his position way out. The guy is saying that he just wants a chance where he can play casual and not have be feel like he is obligated to play at 100% all of the time. Clueless people here are acting like Scuf is bad at this game despite being a pro and actually good at this game. Does this come across as whining? Yeah unfortunately but I also get where he is coming from. I am actually pretty good at the game(I can post my stats if someone cries enough but rather not). It does feel like a drag going into a lobby knowing you can't even experiment with guns or builds cause you have to min/max in order to not get blown out(hurrrr durrr losing is fun rite). I totally get it and he totally could have presented his case way better. I do agree with his point and what others have said in here. There should be ranked and unranked. I am slightly torn since I do not find the SBMM to be awful since there is a ton of give and take. Which does allow for the intended effect of getting blown out by a squad of tryhards one match and feeling like a god the next. I do not consider myself close to his level but definitely in the upper echelon of CODMW.
They will eventually add COD League like they did with CODMW and most will eventually go there. It is just unacceptable for a triple A game to not have something of this fashion at launch.

You have to look at it from the other side which is that the lobby is full of people who are about to get destroyed while this guy is "having fun". And those are paying customers as well. Activision designs systems that maximizes revenue and gets the biggest audience not ones that give pro players the best chance to wipe the floor with scrubs when they need to blow off steam or compile a new video montage.

There is no moment when Kevin Durant or whomever steps on to the court and isn't Kevin Durant.
 
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Armorous

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This is no different than any other competitive online game that has mmr or such. I see hearthstone players all the time play on alt accoutns to get matched when they want a chill game.
 
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manfestival

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You have to look at it from the other side which is that the lobby is full of people who are about to get destroyed while this guy is "having fun". And those are paying customers as well. Activision designs systems that maximizes revenue and gets the biggest audience not ones that give pro players the best chance to wipe the floor with scrubs when they need to blow off steam or compile a new video montage.

There is no moment when Kevin Durant or whomever steps on to the court and isn't Kevin Durant.
Right I agree hence why I said that I do not find that the SBMM is that bad and that it actually does it's job. I just feel like people are dogpiling to get their rocks off on the guy while I definitely see the point he was trying to make and appears to be overlooked by most with their driveby comments(that also seem to come from a place of no actual understanding). I do think the SBMM does work as intended. I do also think there should be ranked and unranked.

The NFL/Pro Sports comparisons don't work in this context though. I get that point but it is far too nuanced for it being just that "simple" and I disagree with the application here. There is a reason why the pro players were the only ones complaining about the visual change to the collapsible stock on the mp5(calling it a nerf or something to that effect) when they made that change.
 
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Dogman

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So many people itt are missing the problem with SBMM in an unranked playlist.

First off, it is nearly impossible to know if you are improving. If every match you get players who are about as good as you, and you are constantly averaging a 1 K/D, how do you know if you're getting better? Without SBMM, you would know you're improving because you're consistently getting more killstreaks, higher K/Ds, etc. Now its impossible to know, because even world champs and pros cant break a 2 K/D in a casual gamemode.

Second, it completely discourages experimentation. If you just wanna try a new loadout and see how it works, or try a new route, you will have no clue if its actually effective. Why? Because if you do bad, it could be because you got placed in a hard lobby, and if you did good, it was probably because you lost your last 2 games and the matchmaking is putting you in a shit lobby now. Not to mention if you try something off-meta, youll just get beamed and shit on by all the sweats using the meta guns. It completely messes up the CASUAL experience.

By all means, make a ranked playlist for this. But dont put SBMM in casual unranked playlists as it goes against why people opt for that over ranked.
 
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