• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
  • The Politics forum has been nuked. Please do not bring political discussion to the rest of the site, or you will be removed. Thanks.

Epic Games files EU antitrust complaint against Apple

kuncol02

Member
Apr 4, 2020
1,538
1,745
455
Apple could probably argue that - for example - they can't go open up an Apple kiosk inside of Walmart and take 100% of the profits. If they're going to sell goods inside of a Walmart store, they have to play by Walmart's rules, in which Walmart actually sells the goods and gets profits.
Except in this example iOS is not Walmart. App Store is Walmart, and iOS is city where only store which can legally exists is Wallmart.
 

AMSCD

Member
Aug 19, 2019
76
62
200
Epics temper tantrum over this continues. Funny how they were fine with apples policies for over a decade until suddenly they weren’t.
This is such a stupid comment. Did Epic need to sue Apple and publicly state their opinion on day 1 or forever keep quiet? You really think they only recently started to dislike having to pay a 30% fee to the App Store?
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: kuncol02

BusierDonkey

Member
Sep 21, 2018
3,573
9,573
595
This is such a stupid comment. Did Epic need to sue Apple and publicly state their opinion on day 1 or forever keep quiet? You really think they only recently started to dislike having to pay a 30% fee to the App Store?

They waited until they thought they could afford the fight. Epic was doing fine, but Fortnight catching lightning in a bottle and a massive infusion of Chinese money from Tencent provided that.

Epic doesn't have to pay a 30% fee. They chose to pay that fee because they make more than that fee by taking advantage of the iOS platform. They can chose to not support the iOS platform just like they did with Steam when they decided to launch a competing platform on PC (on the premise of platform exclusivity no less) but they supported Steam right until they decided they could afford not to. Apple isn't forcing them to use the iOS platform, they put games on iOS because they want to make money off the platform. Why shouldn't the company that created, maintains and controls that platform be able to dictate pricing on that platform? They are free to start their own platform to compete with iOS, they even have the backing of the Chinese government to do it. It brings up the question, do they want to compete with Apple or just weaken them through regulation so they can break into the market that way?

If you owned a piece of land with valuable resources and you charged 30% for companies to use your land to dig it up would that be unfair? Your land is creating a situation where other companies can now generate an income. Without your land none of those companies would have a business model. Would you argue in that scenario that access to the land should be free to everyone? That's the scenario with iOS.

Apple basically owns a resource-rich piece of land. For years everyone came and used Apple's own excavation equipment and on the way out they paid a royalty for doing so. My family owns a gravel pit, we own the land and charge $/ton. We do nothing other than pay taxes on the land while the company leasing our pit digs out the gravel, provides equipment and staff, and builds infrastructure to and from the pit. Apple takes $/profit for their end of the deal. The difference between us and Apple is that they also provide the equipment, fix the excavation equipment, pave the roads in and out of the land, and make sure the land itself is stocked with resources. In other words Apple keeps the platform up to date, deals with the R&D and provides the user base through successful (expensive) marketing. Now while everyone was happy to come and go paying the 30% fee. Tim Sweeney decided to roll into Apple's land with a pickup truck and a shovel made in China and he wants to just scoop up all the resources he can for free.

In the gravel pit even though we own the gravel I can't just drive in with a loader and a gravel truck. I can't help myself to the gravel because we have a contract with the company leasing from us and they would make more money off that gravel using it in infrastructure projects. The owner of the company leasing from us also can't just take gravel without paying our royalty because the contract dictates so. Similarly Tim Sweeney signed a contract saying he would pay 30% and follow Apple's rules. Now he's decided the rules should no longer apply to him. If I was down at the pit and noticed gravel trucks coming and going without stopping at the scale I would investigate. If I found the trucks were not getting weighed I would shut the works down and if needed terminate our contract with the company leasing from us due to contract violation. Lucky for us that's not an issue as the company we are dealing with is very by-the-books and reputable in that regard. Unfortunately for Apple, Epic is a lot more underhanded in it's dealings. They noticed Epic was using their platform in violation of the terms Epic agreed to. When they issued a warning to terminate the activity Epic doubled down and got other entities involved. Apple had no other recourse than to suspend dealings with Epic while the matter is being resolved as is their right.
 
Mar 19, 2015
3,118
3,663
740
This is such a stupid comment. Did Epic need to sue Apple and publicly state their opinion on day 1 or forever keep quiet? You really think they only recently started to dislike having to pay a 30% fee to the App Store?
No, first they privately sought a deal for a lower cut, and when Apple didnt want to play ball they threw a temper tantrum and tried to get kids to fight their battles for them through Fortnite.

If Apple had agreed to a lower cut they would be a 'valued partner'
 

lukilladog

Member
Feb 6, 2018
1,923
1,188
475
Epic and Tencent suing Apple on behalf of what is mostly a happy Apple userbase seems strange, should be dismissed.
 

mitchman

Member
Aug 20, 2013
1,988
1,433
640
Oslo, Norway
Epic and Tencent suing Apple on behalf of what is mostly a happy Apple userbase seems strange, should be dismissed.
That "happiness" has eroded quite a lot the last few years among the issues they've had with hardware. Even some of my colleges that used to be die hard Apple fans are skeptical these days. But credit where credit is due, they are standing up to Facebook.
 

FranXico

Member
Dec 7, 2010
13,799
26,907
1,420
Just like last time, it's Goliath and Goliath, and nobody cares who wins.
I'm wondering, how big do you think Epic is, or how small do you think Apple is?

Because what you just said is the equivalent to stating that an ant is comparable to an elephant in size.
 
Last edited:

AV

We ain't outta here in ten minutes, we won't need no rocket to fly through space
May 31, 2018
6,488
14,315
815
Leeds, UK
I'm wondering, how big do you think Epic is, or how small do you think Apple is?

Because what you just said is the equivalent to stating that an ant is comparable to an elephant in size.

I'm aware that Apple is colossal, although don't forget that Epic do have papa Tencent to look after them. Regardless, there's no David in this scenario. Us regular folks don't see a man fighting a giant, we see a giant fighting a much bigger giant, and the point is that it's hard to care about which one wins.
 
  • Like
Reactions: graywolf323

Soodanim

Member
Feb 24, 2012
7,422
2,804
1,005
United Kingdom
I still don’t see how Epic could possibly have a case.

Apple provides a service to allow an app to be hosted within Apple’s App Store (with other benefits like promotion) in exchange for a percentage of the proceeds. Epic found those terms acceptable and undoubtedly benefited from that. Epic are free to request renegotiation at a later date upon threat of ending the business relationship, but Apple are also free to say no.

Epic running crying to any and every person that might listen comes across as no different than a child crying “That boy I’ve never met won’t let me play with his new toy”.

Given that Apple isn’t the only choice out there I’ll be very surprised if there’s a ruling that Apple have to open up their clearly designed and advertised system to any Tom, Dick, and Harry with an App Store they want to push. If nothing else Apple will just say their security is designed round it and that will be that.
 
  • Like
Reactions: graywolf323

Starhowl

Member
Dec 30, 2016
159
87
315
Lebach, Germany
steamcommunity.com
I wish side-loading would be a thing on Apple phones.. It should be possible to use another store than the Apple store on iPhones. That would regulate prices down eventually in a natural way, and if that wouldn't happen, they could still force Apple to lower the prices. :pie_expressionless:
 

Foilz

Member
Nov 22, 2020
58
96
190
I'm shocked people actually support epic in this fight. The entire reasoning behind this lawsuit is because epic just doesn't want to pay apple a royalty of 30%. They build the hardware and software so the garden is theirs and they make the rules. I'm not an apple fan but I fully support this. If epic wants to receive more money then all they have to do is charge more
 
  • Like
Reactions: A.Romero

ManaByte

Gold Member
Jun 10, 2004
35,938
53,975
2,510
California
manabyte.com
A closed platform, walled garden, or closed ecosystem is a software system wherein the carrier or service provider has control over applications, content, media and restricts convenient access to non-approved applicants or content.

Epic Store is a walled garden.

Except this has absolutely nothing to do with the Epic Games Store and absolutely everything with getting Fortnite back on iOS. Look past your dumb storefront wars for a moment.
 

Zeroing

Member
Sep 19, 2019
1,098
1,485
365
Oh European Union will beat Apple. This is going to be entertaining!

Anyway we shouldn’t pick sides. Both are pretending they care about us but in reality it’s just to maintain/gain control of the market.
 

reksveks

Member
Jun 4, 2020
2,288
2,146
340
I'm shocked people actually support epic in this fight. The entire reasoning behind this lawsuit is because epic just doesn't want to pay apple a royalty of 30%. They build the hardware and software so the garden is theirs and they make the rules. I'm not an apple fan but I fully support this. If epic wants to receive more money then all they have to do is charge more
I think consumers benefit if IOS and especially ipadOS becomes more MacOS like, Epic is a means to that end. I also don't think it would be an option that 80% of users will touch.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Panajev2001a

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
Jun 7, 2004
18,829
12,435
2,110
I'm shocked people actually support epic in this fight. The entire reasoning behind this lawsuit is because epic just doesn't want to pay apple a royalty of 30%. They build the hardware and software so the garden is theirs and they make the rules. I'm not an apple fan but I fully support this. If epic wants to receive more money then all they have to do is charge more
Try to look at from the devs side perhaps.

 

ManaByte

Gold Member
Jun 10, 2004
35,938
53,975
2,510
California
manabyte.com
Anyway we shouldn’t pick sides. Both are pretending they care about us but in reality it’s just to maintain/gain control of the market.

How is allowing Fortnite back on iOS gaining control of the market.

People say Epic should just raise their store prices, but I don't think those people have a clue what they're talking about. Fortnite has one Item Store with the same prices regardless of where you login to the game from. The only difference on any platform is that VBucks are segregated on the PlayStation and locked there, they're crossplatform everywhere else. Raising the price due to the Apple tax due to one platform would be grossly unfair to anyone who plays on Android, PC, Xbox, PlayStation, or Switch.
 

A.Romero

Member
Feb 23, 2009
3,424
2,178
1,250
Mexico
www.lavejota.com
Except this has absolutely nothing to do with the Epic Games Store and absolutely everything with getting Fortnite back on iOS. Look past your dumb storefront wars for a moment.

I think he is pointing out that Apple has a walled garden and they have the capability to control all that and how hypocritical it sounds that they are arguing against that while having EGS with a similar business model.
 

Zeroing

Member
Sep 19, 2019
1,098
1,485
365
How is allowing Fortnite back on iOS gaining control of the market.
see, the problem here is, it should be a group of developers joining and suing Apple. The issue being discussed here is the 30% cut from sales.

Epic is just doing this because they want smaller percentage of their sales. The fortnite violation of the App Store guidelines was just a way so epic would have a reason to sue apple.
The true goal of Epic is, winning so they can have their own store in iOS

so the lawsuit started by the wrong reasons.
 

reksveks

Member
Jun 4, 2020
2,288
2,146
340
see, the problem here is, it should be a group of developers joining and suing Apple. The issue being discussed here is the 30% cut from sales.

Epic is just doing this because they want smaller percentage of their sales. The fortnite violation of the App Store guidelines was just a way so epic would have a reason to sue apple.
The true goal of Epic is, winning so they can have their own store in iOS

so the lawsuit started by the wrong reasons.
You pick the side at the moment that makes the world just a little bit better in summary, you don't have to always keep lockstep with that side in the next 'battle'.
 

Trimesh

Member
Jun 8, 2019
889
1,069
415
How is allowing Fortnite back on iOS gaining control of the market.

People say Epic should just raise their store prices, but I don't think those people have a clue what they're talking about. Fortnite has one Item Store with the same prices regardless of where you login to the game from. The only difference on any platform is that VBucks are segregated on the PlayStation and locked there, they're crossplatform everywhere else. Raising the price due to the Apple tax due to one platform would be grossly unfair to anyone who plays on Android, PC, Xbox, PlayStation, or Switch.

This is an utterly nonsensical argument because the "commodity" is virtual and the marginal cost of sales is zero. The idea they would have to increase the price doesn't hold water when the entire price is profit.

This is just Epic being greedy cunts. They are actually acting in such an egregious manner that I find myself having to support Apple - and I really don't like Apple. What Apple are bringing to the party here is a large number of people that have a stored payment method - and if you are in selling something without intrinsic value then that's extremely valuable to you.