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[NecrosaroIII]

Dragonlance authors sue Dungeons & Dragons publisher Wizards of The Coast

A new trilogy was in the works and now it’s caught in court

www.polygon.com

The tldr is that WotC hired Tracy Hickman and Margaret Weis to write a new trilogy of Dragonlnace novels. They are the original creators of Dragonlance, a DND setting that was popular in the 80s and 90s.

They were promised an advance which was never paid. For three years they worked on the project, writing a few drafts of the first novel and outlines for the sequels. However, due to the BLM riots, WotC has adopted a more diversity-minded approach to DND, and want to sever ties to DNDs historic editions now, due to racism and sexism.

Hickman and Weis were told the project was dead and they wouldn't be paid for their work.

Besides Dragonlance, the writing duo are the creators of some of DNDs most enduring characters and settings. It would suck of the creators of Strahd are alienated.

 

[oagboghi2]

So they went woke, and decided their new religion gave them the right to not pay for work that has been completed?

 

[Stiflers Mom]

Not that Dragonlance needs any new stories, but cancelling due to wokeness is shitty.

 

[NecrosaroIII]

Yup

 

[LoV]

So they went woke, and decided their new religion gave them the right to not pay for work that has been completed?

Sounds like the left

 

[SinDelta]

How is this not breach of contract?

Also wokness is literally worse then cancer.

People don't get cancer on purpose, at least I hope so.

 

[Cunth]

Why would you work for 3 years without an advance

 

[JSoup]

Why would you work for 3 years without an advance

It's common for publishers to make such deals with proven money making authors. Both sides see it as an investment that will pay off or at least break even.

 

[Fugitive Sex]

I hope WOTC gets destroyed for this. They've become such a pathetic company. Races can't be evil anymore because the 'awoken' themselves draw racist connotations to real life people? Get a grip.

 

[GeorgPrime]

How is this not breach of contract?

Also wokness is literally worse then cancer.

People don't get cancer on purpose, at least I hope so.

Wokeness is literally cancer for societies.

 

[Kimahri]

Wizards of the Coast have gone down the bloody drain. This, the laughable crap about Orcs being racis, and those Magic cards getting pulled? There are enough great new RPG settings and systems out there for no one to need to bother with this lot every again.

They'll never get another penny from me. Plenty of other places to go.

Edit: that said, fans need to start speaking up, and showing Wizards that this nonsense will destroy them if they keep it up.

 

[Woo-Fu]

Why did they work 3 years on a project without getting an advance?

 

[Estellex]

I started reading the first novel of the trilogy a couple months back, so this was surprising to hear.

 

[BadBurger]

An old dog-eared copy of Dragons of Autumn Twilight from my middle school library was the first fantasy novel I can remember reading. I would have liked to have read a followup to the original trilogy.

This is the first I've heard about D&D properties being criticized for racism and sexism. I've read a lot of books from their various settings and I struggle to think of even one example of an author even attempting to draw allusions to the real world. Sci-fi this is not. I also find it impossible to be "inclusive" when the setting involves different races of humanoids - though in 2020 it wouldn't shock me to discover there's some group out there that identifies as moon elf or Githyanki.

As for sexism - for every description of some voluptuous, beautiful woman doing womanly things, there's a passage describing the ruggedly handsome/boyishly charming, sexy warrior/mage/thief man in the story. In fact I remember there even being quite a bit of homo eroticism in some those novels. Talk about inclusiveness in the 80's and 90's.

 

[AetherMage]

The woke are the enemy of all that is good. I hope WotC are destroyed in court and abandoned by their customers and shareholders.

 

[jason10mm]

This doesn't surprise me. I think the reason we haven't seen a reprint of DL from WOTC is because it is so straight and white. Poor Sturm would have to be the morose gay black guy, Tanis would be half black but the black part would have to be elven because otherwise it would perpetuate the "blacks as rapists" stereotype, Raistlin of course stays a cishetero white guy which means Caramon has to be white, so either Tika is trans or at least a red headed black girl. Laurana could be black if High Elves were all depicted as black or had the same skin tone variation as humans for whatever reason (which doesn't make a lot of sense because elves are already segregated based on environment) but then that allows Tanis to have a black mom so maybe that works out. Tasslehoff and Flint are tricky since demihumans are already sorta parodies of negative human stereotypes already so making them asian, hispanic, or black is inherently problematic (though I have seen black dwarves in WOTC stuff already IIRC). Making them gay brings up some questionable NAMBLA associations as well.

Anyhoo, just some ramblings too early in the morning

 

[tkscz]

Why did they work 3 years on a project without getting an advance?

See JSoup 's response

Wizards of the Coast have gone down the bloody drain. This, the laughable crap about Orcs being racis, and those Magic cards getting pulled? There are enough great new RPG settings and systems out there for no one to need to bother with this lot every again.

They'll never get another penny from me. Plenty of other places to go.

Edit: that said, fans need to start speaking up, and showing Wizards that this nonsense will destroy them if they keep it up.

Won't work, see whats going on with Marvel comics right now. These companies are being taken over by left-wing extremist who care less for including everyone and more about the wokeness of a project, even if it means less sales. Marvel was really bad with this (and for some reason DC is currently copying them). Their wokest comics sold extremely poorly, but they kept remaking more, believing that if they just renumber it back down to 1, then it would be successful, this was never the case. In fact, they would force over 100 comics onto shops that could never sell them to customers (shops have to pay for the books and profit off of selling them to customers). This caused over 100 comic book shops to close in about a two year period, all of them blaming the over saturation of Marvel books that didn't sell.

Just like Marvel however, WotC has a grip on other projects outside of Magic and D&D, and no matter how loud the fans scream and leave, WotC won't budge. Unlike Marvel, WotC doesn't have a business overlord to slap them down when they go too far (Disney slapped Marvel Comics down twice to force them to stop the wokeness). So this will unfortunately not change.

There are alternative Table Top RPGs you can play outside of D&D like Path Finder or Basic Fantasy RPG (this one plays more like D&D classic), but I don't see them toppling D&D anytime soon.

 

[GreyHorace]

Never read the Dragonlance books. For DnD literature I made the mistake of reading RA Salvatore's Drizzt novels before I knew what a hack he was (to be fair, the first few books were at least tolerable).

But I wont deny how popular the series is among DnD and fantasy fans. It's fucking shameful that the authors have become the latest victims of the woke brigade. I just don't get why these SJW idiots have to force their real world narrative into stories like these. It's fucking fantasy. It's supposed to be a whole different world from our own. You're supposed to get lost in the tale and not bring your real world bullshit into it. To quote JRR Tolkien:

I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence. I much prefer history, true or feigned, with its varied applicability to the thought and experience of readers. I think that many confuse 'applicability' with 'allegory'; but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author.

Tolkien himself was a devout Roman Catholic, and his books are peppered with a lot of references to the Christian faith. But he chose to purposely hide any direct connection so as not to distract readers from the story.

In contrast, these NPCs are hell bent on putting their beliefs front and center in whatever fictional media they can get their hands on. If that's the case, then maybe those beliefs weren't strong enough to begin with.

 

[Lanrutcon]

DnD finally gets successful and they start trashing their own legacy. Neato.

 

[Woo-Fu]

See JSoup 's response

His response only explains why WotC would do it, which was patently obvious, it costs them absolutely nothing to do so. It doesn't explain why a "proven money making author" would, much less should do it.

If I'm a "proven money making author" I'm not putting 3 years of effort into anything for a company like WotC without some upfront money.

And hey, I'm not blaming them, I'm saying there is more to this story, there has to be.

 

[yuadesa]

Unlike Marvel, WotC doesn't have a business overlord to slap them down when they go too far (Disney slapped Marvel Comics down twice to force them to stop the wokeness). So this will unfortunately not change.

What are u talking about, Hasbro has been putting the screws to WotC for the past few years. Thats a big part why MtG has been in the shitter, chasing money instead of quality. They are definitely all about the money lately.

 

[jason10mm]

DnD finally gets successful and they start trashing their own legacy. Neato.

Certainly the rise of internet streaming has lifted DnDs visibility considerably. Not sure just how many danger hairs it has attracted beyond the few that want to monetize streaming though. The problem with courting this demographic is how toxic they are. Once they strip away the low hanging fruit of "orcs are black people", "elves are racist white privilege", and "drow are just emo, not evil" they will move on to attack more core concepts like the spells "charm person" and "dominate person" are rape analogues, undead are enslaved against their will and thus are verboten, the "charisma" stat promotes heteronormativity, "Strength" shouldn't just represent crass physical muscle but should encompass emotional strength (nevermind "wisdom" already does that), and in fact 'minority' races (or ancestry or whatever nonsense word they want to use) should receive bonuses over the human ones because clearly human centered worlds have pre-dominated for far too long. I predict the illusionist class will become the preferred class because it can alter reality to match imagination. Followed closely by the Bard of course because who doesn't want to be in a band and use music to influence people?

So DnD will eventually fall as every "idea" it has will be attacked, until the end result is just a circle jerk game of virtue signaling without dice.

 

[tkscz]

His response only explains why WotC would do it, which was patently obvious, it costs them absolutely nothing to do so. It doesn't explain why a "proven money making author" would, much less should do it.

If I'm a "proven money making author" I'm not putting 3 years of effort into anything for a company like WotC without some upfront money.

And hey, I'm not blaming them, I'm saying there is more to this story, there has to be.

Love for the craft is the only thing I could think of. They get to make a sequel to something they made so long ago and probably have been wanting to do, so they take any deal that they would assume would go through without a hitch. Obviously a bad choice, however sense they were contracted to do so, if this really is a breech, then WotC will have to pay up.

What are u talking about, Hasbro has been putting the screws to WotC for the past few years. Thats a big part why MtG has been in the shitter, chasing money instead of quality. They are definitely all about the money lately.

Did not know that. Isn't Hasbro the ones who own He-Man? Or is that Mattel?

 

[Stiflers Mom]

Tabletop RPG has always drawn some weird folks and outcasts to it, even back in the late 80ies.

I remember talking first time in my life to a trans person in a TTRPG store. Was a dude that was suddenly a girl. And everybody was okay with that. I mean, yeah, why not. He (later she) was a nice person.

I just don't want these folks to take over that hobby and insert their values into everything.

 

[DESTROYA]

See JSoup 's response



Won't work, see whats going on with Marvel comics right now. These companies are being taken over by left-wing extremist who care less for including everyone and more about the wokeness of a project, even if it means less sales. Marvel was really bad with this (and for some reason DC is currently copying them). Their wokest comics sold extremely poorly, but they kept remaking more, believing that if they just renumber it back down to 1, then it would be successful, this was never the case. In fact, they would force over 100 comics onto shops that could never sell them to customers (shops have to pay for the books and profit off of selling them to customers). This caused over 100 comic book shops to close in about a two year period, all of them blaming the over saturation of Marvel books that didn't sell.

Just like Marvel however, WotC has a grip on other projects outside of Magic and D&D, and no matter how loud the fans scream and leave, WotC won't budge. Unlike Marvel, WotC doesn't have a business overlord to slap them down when they go too far (Disney slapped Marvel Comics down twice to force them to stop the wokeness). So this will unfortunately not change.

There are alternative Table Top RPGs you can play outside of D&D like Path Finder or Basic Fantasy RPG (this one plays more like D&D classic), but I don't see them toppling D&D anytime soon.

Has Marvel stopped the wokeness though ?
I stopped reading comics in general about 3 years ago because Marvel was going down this path, has it really changed?
Last I seen Marvel was going to release a new “New Warriors“ comic that had characters called SnowFlake and SafeSpace and was getting killed for it.

 

[NecrosaroIII]

Certainly the rise of internet streaming has lifted DnDs visibility considerably. Not sure just how many danger hairs it has attracted beyond the few that want to monetize streaming though. The problem with courting this demographic is how toxic they are. Once they strip away the low hanging fruit of "orcs are black people", "elves are racist white privilege", and "drow are just emo, not evil" they will move on to attack more core concepts like the spells "charm person" and "dominate person" are rape analogues, undead are enslaved against their will and thus are verboten, the "charisma" stat promotes heteronormativity, "Strength" shouldn't just represent crass physical muscle but should encompass emotional strength (nevermind "wisdom" already does that), and in fact 'minority' races (or ancestry or whatever nonsense word they want to use) should receive bonuses over the human ones because clearly human centered worlds have pre-dominated for far too long. I predict the illusionist class will become the preferred class because it can alter reality to match imagination. Followed closely by the Bard of course because who doesn't want to be in a band and use music to influence people?

So DnD will eventually fall as every "idea" it has will be attacked, until the end result is just a circle jerk game of virtue signaling without dice.

It's attracted quite a few. When you try to counter their arguments, you get shouted down as being a "gatekeeper"

 

[tkscz]

Has Marvel stopped the wokeness though ?
I stopped reading comics in general about 3 years ago because Marvel was going down this path, has it really changed?
Last I seen Marvel was going to release a new “New Warriors“ comic that had characters called SnowFlake and SafeSpace and was getting killed for it.

They stopped for about a year when Disney put a new Editor and chief in, and then he "left" and got replaced with some lady who went right back to the wokeness

 

[Hnjohngalt]

I always wanted a RPG Dragonlance game that played like Star wars Knights of the old republic where you played as Raistlin and had to make good and bad choices throughout his life spanning all books.
Wizards of the Coast sucks though

 

[Cybrwzrd]

Dragonlance was my first venture into fantasy beyond Tolken back in 4th and 5th grade. The series holds a special place in my heart. For some reason Forgotten Realms got all the video games, but Dragonlance was by far the better setting.

I probabably read every book in the series that was out back in the early to middle 90's, including the cookbooks (Fizban's fireball chili is amazing).

Fuck WotC and the shitty woke card game they rode into town on.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

So they went woke, and decided their new religion gave them the right to not pay for work that has been completed?

You can do anything when you're on the RIGHT SIDE OF HISTORY.

Why would you work for 3 years without an advance

The first Dragonlance novel was published in 1984 and I believe the two have worked with TSR/WOTC in some capacity basically ever since. Why would they mistrust them after a nearly 40 year professional relationship?

 

[Kenpachii]

Stop working on something if you don't get paid easy. They took the risk and lost.

 

[Calcium]

It's great watching all of my hobbies get infected with this woke shit.

 

[Hnjohngalt]

Wow I just realized i have almost all of the original books in my Library. I wish WOC just sells Dragonlance and gives it to someone who will use the License properly.

Also if anyone tries to animate these books again go ahead and skip Autumn Twilight and go straight to Dragons of Winter. Autumn has 2 cartoons already. And nobody ever does the rest of the Chronicles. I personnally think the Twins Trilogy were better. But it needs Chronicles to understand most characters and gods.

 

[lock2k]

Uggggh uggggh but...but anti-woke people are just as bad... this forum... orage man bad... hurrr duurrrr derp

 

[jason10mm]

Someone needs to start a #Draconianlivesmatter or #Kenderlivesmatter movement. Really confuse some folks but Perkins will understand!

 

[Fbh]

At least fantasy had a good run before all of this. The LOTR movies had the best timing ever, came out late enough to take good advantage of visual effects but early enough to avoid the over usage of CGI and all the forced woke stuff.

Image these movies now:

Sucks for these people, specially having worked together with WotC for so long. I hope they had something in writing though because otherwise It's going to be hard to win this.

This is the first I've heard about D&D properties being criticized for racism and sexism. I've read a lot of books from their various settings and I struggle to think of even one example of an author even attempting to draw allusions to the real world. Sci-fi this is not. I also find it impossible to be "inclusive" when the setting involves different races of humanoids - though in 2020 it wouldn't shock me to discover there's some group out there that identifies as moon elf or Githyanki.

As far as I know this whole thing started with some dude listing a bunch of negative stuff about Orcs and being like "Hey WotC, why would you say these things about black people?".
The normal response to such a claim would have been "Um, we didn't? And the fact you'd read that an immediately think about black people only shows you own prejudice". But instead they were so afraid of the angry twitter mob that they apologized and vowed to woke things up moving forward.

 

[down 2 orth]

Here's a good tip for all of you: Just buy and read their series The Death Gate Cycle. It's the most underrated fantasy series out there.

 

[Hnjohngalt]

Do not forget about Gully Dwarves. Lord have mercy on how they were described and treated in the books. Lmao

 

[JSoup]

His response only explains why WotC would do it, which was patently obvious, it costs them absolutely nothing to do so. It doesn't explain why a "proven money making author" would, much less should do it.

Because they're not making less. "Proven money maker" means they are getting residuals or proceeds, along with any of the cash that comes with events. The system is set up so the creator can keep their high level of passive income flowing and WotC can just take their share of the profit with no overhead. Most publishing companies offer deals like this for the same reason.

 

[Kamina]

What are u talking about, Hasbro has been putting the screws to WotC for the past few years. Thats a big part why MtG has been in the shitter, chasing money instead of quality. They are definitely all about the money lately.

Woke people dont buy those things thought. They prefer stuff like the Sherah remake.

 

[Weiji]

So they went woke, and decided their new religion gave them the right to not pay for work that has been completed?

Contracts are really a form of white privilege and the patriarchy when you think about it.

 

[jason10mm]

They should just pull a 50 shades of grey. I really want to read about the continuing adventures of Penis, his best bud Cockman and his brother Rashanus with the Cunter Tugoff in the world of Krynge.

 

[bose]

Man wokeness is shit

 

[Piku_Ringo]

They stopped for about a year when Disney put a new Editor and chief in, and then he "left" and got replaced with some lady who went right back to the wokeness

C. B. Cebulski is still EiC for Marvel Comics to this day.

 

[Darkmakaimura]

Fuck WotC.

I miss TSR and 2nd Edition.

This is what going woke does. This is so absurd. I almost didn't believe the OP until I decided to read the Polygon article just to make sure.

All this because some fucking SJW soy blob complained about Orcs being racist and gathering up his followers to bitch and moan until WotC gave in.

I saw this transpiring on Twitter from the beginning before WotC gave in.

Although tbh WotC probably "gave in" because it's already run by soyboys and blue haired cunts.

These people absolutely ruin everything and this Dragonlance incident remains one very good example.

 

[Shadowstar39]

See JSoup 's response



Won't work, see whats going on with Marvel comics right now. These companies are being taken over by left-wing extremist who care less for including everyone and more about the wokeness of a project, even if it means less sales. Marvel was really bad with this (and for some reason DC is currently copying them). Their wokest comics sold extremely poorly, but they kept remaking more, believing that if they just renumber it back down to 1, then it would be successful, this was never the case. In fact, they would force over 100 comics onto shops that could never sell them to customers (shops have to pay for the books and profit off of selling them to customers). This caused over 100 comic book shops to close in about a two year period, all of them blaming the over saturation of Marvel books that didn't sell.

Just like Marvel however, WotC has a grip on other projects outside of Magic and D&D, and no matter how loud the fans scream and leave, WotC won't budge. Unlike Marvel, WotC doesn't have a business overlord to slap them down when they go too far (Disney slapped Marvel Comics down twice to force them to stop the wokeness). So this will unfortunately not change.

There are alternative Table Top RPGs you can play outside of D&D like Path Finder or Basic Fantasy RPG (this one plays more like D&D classic), but I don't see them toppling D&D anytime soon.

How does this factor into Baldur's Gate 3? I really hope this woke bs didn't filter to the game. As far as Weis and hickman that sucks. They are great authors. They also wrote some great non dnd novels back in the day as well. I still have all my Dragonlance and fr novels as well as other from the 80s and 90s.

As for wotc, a company needs to buy dnd from them, corporate takeover, anything. I knew hasbro/wotc taking the dnd license was a bad thing way back when it happened. I miss Gary Gygax and Jeff Cook 1st and 2nd Ed Ad&d. Back when it wasn't considered "problamtic" to call something advanced. Back when it was targeted at the proper audience not woke San fransico and seatlle/Portland spergs.

 

[Darkmakaimura]

How does this factor into Baldur's Gate 3? I really hope this woke bs didn't filter to the game. As far as Weis and hickman that sucks. They are great authors. They also wrote some great non dnd novels back in the day as well. I still have all my Dragonlance and fr novels as well as other from the 80s and 90s.

As for wotc, a company needs to buy dnd from them, corporate takeover, anything. I knew hasbro/wotc taking the dnd license was a bad thing way back when it happened. I miss Gary Gygax and Jeff Cook 1st and 2nd Ed Ad&d. Back when it wasn't considered "problamtic" to call something advanced. Back when it was targeted at the proper audience not woke San fransico and seatlle/Portland spergs.

Just avoid anything by Monte Cook these days. He really turned ultra-woke. His company actually even released a pdf book on consent and trigger warnings in gaming, I shit you not.

 

[jason10mm]

Yeah, there is a lot of "session zero" stuff these days. I've never really done one but I imagine it goes something like:
"Are you ok with having a homosexual relationship with a NPC?"

"Is it ok if your character is raped?"

" What gender pronouns does your asexual warforged prefer?"

" I noticed your character has all 18s for their stats. Normally this is concerning for cheating since we use a point buy system that doesn't allow so many good stats....but I see your character is a trans drow half-dwarf multiclass paladin/warlock/sorcerer with daddy issues, severe agoraphobia despite knowing the campaign is taking place in Waterdeep, is deaf and blind needing a psychically linked disembodied mind flyer ghost to describe your surroundings, has magenta colored hair, and zhirs name is Mhary Szue. Character approved!"

 

[nkarafo]

I hope WOTC goes down. I also hope people start houserule everything from now on and stop supporting them or buy any other products from them.

 

[JSoup]

I also hope people start houserule everything from now

Most D&D players do this to one degree or another anyway. To "take down" WoTC, you've gotta nuke Magic: The Gathering.