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Opinion Doom creator John Romero on what's wrong with modern shooter games

Feb 18, 2019
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Totally agree with the " every weapon counts" claim, and Doom I - II are still fantastic to play nowadays ( the shotgun, the railgun, my God an orgasm every single time)

But from a title in which you spend time comparing weapons etc. we had the one who's probably the best current gunplay



Destiny 1-2 by Bungie, aka : shooting things for hours has never been so much fun before



There aren't many fps who manage to nail feelings tho, most of them lack a " physical weight feeling" in their shots
 

Stefan.North

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There's more problems in modern shooters than in Daikatana, so Romero is quite qualified to speak.
Teach us sensei
 

bhunachicken

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Apr 11, 2018
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What it boils down to:



At least there are titles like Ion Fury, otherwise I would've left the entire genre behind.

Some years back I showed this same image to a work colleague while saying how excited I was for the new Doom (2016) and that the maps were "maze-like".

His reaction was that he would hate the play a game where he had to look around and explore, since he would just end up getting lost. The map style on the right was better, in his opinion, since it allowed people to just run forward and fire at things.

But this is also a guy who quit a job a 10 minute commute away to do one almost 90 minutes away, so he could do Perl instead of Java. So, not the sharpest tool in the box ...
 

Gargus

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Sounds like scorcesses or Spielberg sitting around bitching that streaming is destroying movies, or Eddie van Halen bitching that modern music isnt music, or any stereotypical old man who cant accept the fact things change, they have always changed, and always will change. People's tastes, interests, styles, way of doing thing, etc always change every generation and make a bigger change every other one.

There isnt a damn thing wrong with modern shooters. And anyone who complains they have only can from an opinion based perspective. If you cant somehow mathematically or scientifically qualify why modern shooters aren't as good as old ones then you have an opinion, and options dont mean shit to anyone except the person with it and the others who have the same one.

It's easier if you just accept what you love or grew up loving is going to change eventually and live with it. It happened to your parents, it's happening to you, and it will happen to the next generation just as it always has forever.

Just remember not long ago a bunch of people were sitting around like all of you saying the same shit about the invention of the electric guitar and how rock n roll was ruining music blah blah blah.
 

#Phonepunk#

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Sep 4, 2018
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Sounds like scorcesses or Spielberg sitting around bitching that streaming is destroying movies, or Eddie van Halen bitching that modern music isnt music,
so he is a hugely successful and widely celebrated innovator and pioneer in his field who knows what he is talking about?

i heard Taylor Swift's "Me!" while in line for lunch today. that is definitely NOT MUSIC
 
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Feb 18, 2019
1,350
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Sounds like scorcesses or Spielberg sitting around bitching that streaming is destroying movies, or Eddie van Halen bitching that modern music isnt music, or any stereotypical old man who cant accept the fact things change, they have always changed, and always will change. People's tastes, interests, styles, way of doing thing, etc always change every generation and make a bigger change every other one.

There isnt a damn thing wrong with modern shooters. And anyone who complains they have only can from an opinion based perspective. If you cant somehow mathematically or scientifically qualify why modern shooters aren't as good as old ones then you have an opinion, and options dont mean shit to anyone except the person with it and the others who have the same one.

It's easier if you just accept what you love or grew up loving is going to change eventually and live with it. It happened to your parents, it's happening to you, and it will happen to the next generation just as it always has forever.

Just remember not long ago a bunch of people were sitting around like all of you saying the same shit about the invention of the electric guitar and how rock n roll was ruining music blah blah blah.

He's not totally wrong like Scorsese with the Avengers and Marvel movies tho

Fps nowadays are much less filled with secrets, secret areas, easter eggs and such, and very cutscenes heavy, as well as very brief in their single player campaigns, and most of them give you a 3-6 hours campaign only to say " did you like the snack? Now go play online, you ass-ole"
 
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bilderberg

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Some years back I showed this same image to a work colleague while saying how excited I was for the new Doom (2016) and that the maps were "maze-like".

His reaction was that he would hate the play a game where he had to look around and explore, since he would just end up getting lost. The map style on the right was better, in his opinion, since it allowed people to just run forward and fire at things.

But this is also a guy who quit a job a 10 minute commute away to do one almost 90 minutes away, so he could do Perl instead of Java. So, not the sharpest tool in the box ...
Yes, because I just love going through endless identical hallways, which all fork into 3 or more hallways before reaching a dead end. Where you inevitably just start hitting the use key on repeated wall textures until activating a switch which opens up another passage somewhere across the map. Or how about all the teleportal puzzles, and I use the term puzzle very lightly, which just devolve into random guessing until you end up in the spot you're supposed to be in. I just loved balancing across tighropes in Doom 2 for 35 minutes before stumbling into the invisible portal, transporting me to the end of the level. So much fun!

"hur durrr.. me too dumb for such smart sophisticated level design." Episode 1 of Doom is decent enough, but it wasn't until Doom 3 where this series became any good. I'd honestly have more fun drawing a line through a paper maze from start to finish than playing episodes 2 or 3, and Doom 2 is just ambush bait and gimmicks. I don't want to play the level on the left, and i don't want to play the straw man shit post on the right either. No one but boomers and un-ironic hipsters actually want "maze-like" level design.
 
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Phase

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If there's one thing that needs to come back in the fps world it's ARENA FPS titles. I want them to return so bad. After Law Breakers died I pretty much stopped playing multiplayer altogether. The new Quake doesn't do it for me and Epic abandoned UT. No other online mp games interest me in the same way. There's an elegant dance of map control and weapon control that just can't be replicated outside of the genre.
 
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FeldMonster

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If there's one thing that needs to come back in the fps world it's ARENA FPS titles. I want them to return so bad. After Law Breakers died I pretty much stopped playing multiplayer altogether. The new Quake doesn't do it for me and Epic abandoned UT. No other online mp games interest me in the same way. There's an elegant dance of map control and weapon control that just can't be replicated outside of the genre.
I think that you should give Halo 5 a serious chance. It's arena gameplay is utterly fantastic.
 

FeldMonster

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He's not really wrong. I mean, in a few years: is anyone going to remember a single gun from Borderlands 3? Meanwhile, the goddamn shotguns from F.E.A.R and Doom will forever live on in infamy. Golden Eye, Halo, Modern Warfare, UT, Q3...each has its own legends.
I think that there is a middle ground that can be achieved. Anyone has played Destiny will forever remember Gjallarhorn, Icebreaker, or Fatebringer for example, and Destiny has quite a few weapons.
 
Oct 26, 2018
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Hi, I'm John Romero. You might remember me from 25 years ago and Doom. But please don't remember me from Daikatana.

Here's my Top 10 list of why modern shooters are bad:

10. They make too much money
9. Modern military shooters being grittier and cooler is stupid. People should plays shooters with Imps tossing fireballs and Beholders that are red and blue
8. The games allow gamers to aim, while I think shooters should have vertical and horizontal auto aim
7. The games have too many modes, gear and customization
6. The maps are too interactive and don't have enough 90 degree angles
5. They sound too good
4. They look too good
3. They play too good
2. They get played by too many people for years

And the numero uno reason why moderns shooter suck is because.......

1. I'm jealous they are much better than Doom, and much much much better than Daikatana. I'm one of the godfathers of FPS shooters, but some reason disappeared for the past 20 years
 
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Tesseract

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I think that you should give Halo 5 a serious chance. It's arena gameplay is utterly fantastic.

i shake my head every day that it's still not on pc

agree with phase tho, we're due for an arena renaissance sooner or later, something between quake 3 and titanfall 2 would suffice (as a starting point)

saber was on the right path with quake champions but splitting out the abilities among different champions was a mistake

give everyone double jump, grapple, acid bombs, ports, whatnot and you got yourself a killer shooter
 
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Jun 15, 2019
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Sounds like scorcesses or Spielberg sitting around bitching that streaming is destroying movies
In a big way...it is. And if it isn't streaming something is. The art of creating movies, not popcorn shit but real movies, is being lost. So few films today actually have anything worthwhile to say.
or Eddie van Halen bitching that modern music isnt music
The 3 basic building blocks of music are melody, harmony and rhythm. If it lacks melody (as so much modern "music" does) it's not music.
or any stereotypical old man who cant accept the fact things change
From time to time one of those "old men" has a good point. Even I can see that and I'm only in my mid 20's.
 
Oct 26, 2018
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In a big way...it is. And if it isn't streaming something is. The art of creating movies, not popcorn shit but real movies, is being lost. So few films today actually have anything worthwhile to say.
With the majority of blockbusters skewing to animated/CGI cartoons and big budget CGI films like superhero flicks, Lord of the Rings, Star Wars etc....

it goes to show the old school movie creator might be over-rated as fuck.

Give people options to watch all those comedies, dramas and rom-com movies at home, or similar kinds of tv shows/movies direct to streaming, and all all those flicks that used to have line ups decades ago have disappeared.

Not so entertaining anymore, when people would prefer to wait and stream it to their HD TV "when they get around to it". And not even worth spending $12 on a ticket.

But the usual big budget CGI filled movie still draws crowds.
 
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Bathtub Fart

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This also a part of the reason why I feel like classic Halo was so good. Now there's too many weapons to tune and balance.
 
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Jan 9, 2018
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Some years back I showed this same image to a work colleague while saying how excited I was for the new Doom (2016) and that the maps were "maze-like".

His reaction was that he would hate the play a game where he had to look around and explore, since he would just end up getting lost. The map style on the right was better, in his opinion, since it allowed people to just run forward and fire at things.

But this is also a guy who quit a job a 10 minute commute away to do one almost 90 minutes away, so he could do Perl instead of Java. So, not the sharpest tool in the box ...

Wait, I was all against him until this moment. Java is the scourge of the earth and pure cancer to the brain, so I appreciate the boldness of the Perl choice--a language that permitted & encouraged endless creativity in how you approach problems (even if I only used it for side scripts and can't imagine building a production app on it).

Oddly, I'd say that Java more resembles the mindless corridor, where Perl resembles a mirror funhouse of passageways where most problems can be solved in a thousand different ways, or with a handful of crazy obfuscated one-liners if you're so bold.
 
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Phase

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I think that you should give Halo 5 a serious chance. It's arena gameplay is utterly fantastic.
I was mostly referring to PC AFPS, though I've loved my fare share of console fps' growing up. I'm very picky with my Halo's, maybe unfortunately so. The last I liked was Reach, and the last I loved was 3. Playing H2 online again with MCC was great, but I simply won't support 343 with how they've handled the series.
 

TUROK

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Modern shooters are too close to fantasy role-playing games in how they shower you with new weapons from battle to battle, Romero suggests.

I mean, the grand majority of shooters with those types of guns ARE role playing games.
 
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Scotty W

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I hope that one day Romero sits down alone and spends 200 hours to fix Daikatana and remove the curse he put on himself.
 

Zeypher

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Atleast on the weapons part I agree. In borderlands I never enjoyed a single game till I got an editor which allowed me to get the gun I wanted. With that sorted I could actually enjoy the playing part of the game. Well loot is not what attracts me to a game instead it actively ruins my enjoyment of it. Playing a game just to get loot is not fun, playing the game is. Probably looter games are not for me.
 

Lanrutcon

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Irrelevant
Hi, I'm John Romero. You might remember me from 25 years ago and Doom. But please don't remember me from Daikatana.

Here's my Top 10 list of why modern shooters are bad:

10. They make too much money
9. Modern military shooters being grittier and cooler is stupid. People should plays shooters with Imps tossing fireballs and Beholders that are red and blue
8. The games allow gamers to aim, while I think shooters should have vertical and horizontal auto aim
7. The games have too many modes, gear and customization
6. The maps are too interactive and don't have enough 90 degree angles
5. They sound too good
4. They look too good
3. They play too good
2. They get played by too many people for years

And the numero uno reason why moderns shooter suck is because.......

1. I'm jealous they are much better than Doom, and much much much better than Daikatana. I'm one of the godfathers of FPS shooters, but some reason disappeared for the past 20 years

Beholders have eyestalks. You're banned from my table.

l2arcanacheck, newbie.
 

anthraticus

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Once you grow accustomed to 'quality-of-life' features like quest markers, awesome buttons, health regen, QTEs, dumbed down level design (be it linear or 'open world')...playing anything other than casual shit becomes much harder.
 
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Mar 23, 2018
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The real issue is consoles and the limitation of it where people keep building games for. Unreal tournament, quake 3 etc all have high skill caps and fast gameplay something that on consoles simple wouldn't work so people go for the slow paces simplistic shooter styles that just feel like press x to see next cutscene.
 
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ShinNL

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movement is where you want to be, slip and slide and bounce off walls, double jump and port through the floors or ceilings, conc jump through the air like a psychopath

that's the frontier
So like... Warframe? I feel like you listed this but wasn't referring to Warframe, even though that's pretty much Warframe. It's a PvE Shooter, but is in third person though (and has melee too).
 
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adamosmaki

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What modern shooters miss are great level design with great art direction ( see blood, hexen, duke nukem 3d how great level design and art direction are).
They are also missing on memorable guns ( unreal tournament and blood are 2 games of old with guns such s the flak cannon and voodoo doll)
Modern day shooters also miss on excellent sound effects and music. Again Blood and duke nukem were 2 games that excell on sound effects while games like Unreal had a great soundtrack
Finally in this PC world we are living now days with developers afraid to offend people you arent gonna find games with gear humor and memorable quotes such as was the case of Blood, shadow warrior and duke nukem
 

ljubomir

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This is why I liked the first Left 4 Dead. It had such simplicity to it's arsenal, no competing weapons, everything had it's role, and it was nicely complemented in co-op, as someone with a shotgun would act differently from someone with a rifle. It made a team composition important, and you felt like you're playing a role, without there being explicit 'classes' (nor experience points, badges, player levels). It was brilliant.
 

Ikutachi

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Some years back I showed this same image to a work colleague while saying how excited I was for the new Doom (2016) and that the maps were "maze-like".

His reaction was that he would hate the play a game where he had to look around and explore, since he would just end up getting lost. The map style on the right was better, in his opinion, since it allowed people to just run forward and fire at things.

But this is also a guy who quit a job a 10 minute commute away to do one almost 90 minutes away, so he could do Perl instead of Java. So, not the sharpest tool in the box ...
The average person would just laugh and agree with you from the picture's obvious humor on downplaying the corridor design. I doubt the humor was lost on him so he had given thought about going against it with his opinion. It's not one I agree with, but it's not dumb to me.

Other poster already covered the Perl/Java deal.
 
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hariseldon

Unconfirmed Member
Some years back I showed this same image to a work colleague while saying how excited I was for the new Doom (2016) and that the maps were "maze-like".

His reaction was that he would hate the play a game where he had to look around and explore, since he would just end up getting lost. The map style on the right was better, in his opinion, since it allowed people to just run forward and fire at things.

But this is also a guy who quit a job a 10 minute commute away to do one almost 90 minutes away, so he could do Perl instead of Java. So, not the sharpest tool in the box ...

What kind of madman would voluntarily code in Perl?
 
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Oct 2, 2019
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Sounds like scorcesses or Spielberg sitting around bitching that streaming is destroying movies, or Eddie van Halen bitching that modern music isnt music, or any stereotypical old man who cant accept the fact things change, they have always changed, and always will change. People's tastes, interests, styles, way of doing thing, etc always change every generation and make a bigger change every other one.

There isnt a damn thing wrong with modern shooters. And anyone who complains they have only can from an opinion based perspective. If you cant somehow mathematically or scientifically qualify why modern shooters aren't as good as old ones then you have an opinion, and options dont mean shit to anyone except the person with it and the others who have the same one.

It's easier if you just accept what you love or grew up loving is going to change eventually and live with it. It happened to your parents, it's happening to you, and it will happen to the next generation just as it always has forever.

Just remember not long ago a bunch of people were sitting around like all of you saying the same shit about the invention of the electric guitar and how rock n roll was ruining music blah blah blah.
See this is why i think those saying OLD FPS GOOD NEW BAD are disingenuous, maze like/keycard/arena shooter have disappeard but they're coming back(Dusk, Amid Evil) , and there's a lot more variety in FPS these days, you have your military FPS (CoD and Battlefield) which gets the most hate, you got the open world FPS (Far Cry), there's the story driven FPS (Resistance 3 - Half Life 1-2, and let us not forgot the RNG FPS the indies were in love with until recentally (Shadow Warrior 2 to an extent, STRAFE).
So all in all John Romero is a has been who hasn't made a good game since leaving Id over 23 years ago, and he made Sigil an underwhleming Doom wad according to those who played it.
TL;DR Take what he says with a grain of salt or you'll really be his "" bitch"".
 
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hariseldon

Unconfirmed Member
Wait, I was all against him until this moment. Java is the scourge of the earth and pure cancer to the brain, so I appreciate the boldness of the Perl choice--a language that permitted & encouraged endless creativity in how you approach problems (even if I only used it for side scripts and can't imagine building a production app on it).

Oddly, I'd say that Java more resembles the mindless corridor, where Perl resembles a mirror funhouse of passageways where most problems can be solved in a thousand different ways, or with a handful of crazy obfuscated one-liners if you're so bold.

Are you mad? Java does a fantastic job of preventing programmer stupidity. I've had to deal with far less shitty code when working with other people's java than I have with other more permissive languages. As for Perl, it's just nasty.
 
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tassletine

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Sounds like scorcesses or Spielberg sitting around bitching that streaming is destroying movies, or Eddie van Halen bitching that modern music isnt music, or any stereotypical old man who cant accept the fact things change, they have always changed, and always will change. People's tastes, interests, styles, way of doing thing, etc always change every generation and make a bigger change every other one.

There isnt a damn thing wrong with modern shooters. And anyone who complains they have only can from an opinion based perspective. If you cant somehow mathematically or scientifically qualify why modern shooters aren't as good as old ones then you have an opinion, and options dont mean shit to anyone except the person with it and the others who have the same one.

It's easier if you just accept what you love or grew up loving is going to change eventually and live with it. It happened to your parents, it's happening to you, and it will happen to the next generation just as it always has forever.

Just remember not long ago a bunch of people were sitting around like all of you saying the same shit about the invention of the electric guitar and how rock n roll was ruining music blah blah blah.

I agree, but that is also a convenient excuse as to why they haven't evolved. It's very easy to just point the finger and say "You don't get it".

The Sex Pistols were total dogshit, and on top of that weren't even genuine band. Everyone bought that one hook line and sinker.
 

tassletine

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He's not totally wrong like Scorsese with the Avengers and Marvel movies tho

Fps nowadays are much less filled with secrets, secret areas, easter eggs and such, and very cutscenes heavy, as well as very brief in their single player campaigns, and most of them give you a 3-6 hours campaign only to say " did you like the snack? Now go play online, you ass-ole"

Scorcese's comments aren't wrong. He's not even bashing the films, just saying that there is an utter mon
With the majority of blockbusters skewing to animated/CGI cartoons and big budget CGI films like superhero flicks, Lord of the Rings, Star Wars etc....

it goes to show the old school movie creator might be over-rated as fuck.

Give people options to watch all those comedies, dramas and rom-com movies at home, or similar kinds of tv shows/movies direct to streaming, and all all those flicks that used to have line ups decades ago have disappeared.

Not so entertaining anymore, when people would prefer to wait and stream it to their HD TV "when they get around to it". And not even worth spending $12 on a ticket.

But the usual big budget CGI filled movie still draws crowds.

I don't think you understand the argument. You seem to think it's Them vs Us.

The point is people don't have the option to watch the films from yesteryear or even many films that were made recently.
If you go outside any major city, or sit on a plane, you will notice that the majority of films on offer are by Disney / major studio. Sometimes ALL they have to offer is Disney.

The issue is about a monopoly. Scorcese is complaining about not being able to get his films into theatres (because they are booked years in advance by Disney) and not being able to use actors (because they are being booked years in advance).

Disney are in the process of buying up studios Fox etc -- Last time I heard they were burying FOX's output, effectively stopping it being shown in theatres.
This isn't about popularity it's about deliberately restricting access to competitors.
 

Tesseract

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So like... Warframe? I feel like you listed this but wasn't referring to Warframe, even though that's pretty much Warframe. It's a PvE Shooter, but is in third person though (and has melee too).

probably, honestly not versed enough in warframe to comment

if what you say is true i should be playing it right now
 
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ShinNL

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probably, honestly not versed enough in warframe to comment

if what you say is true i should be playing it right now
It looks like this.
(This demonstration does not require crazy inputs or use any particular earned/equipped skill, it's default movement)

And.... during all that you can just shoot. Because it's a shooter.

(In hindsight, I didn't expect the makers of UT99 to not focus on movement, but I didn't know Warframe is made by those devs until I researched more)
 
Jan 9, 2018
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Are you mad? Java does a fantastic job of preventing programmer stupidity. I've had to deal with far less shitty code when working with other people's java than I have with other more permissive languages. As for Perl, it's just nasty.

I mean, that's the whole point.

The joke I made above is that Java is a corridor-shooter language, and that still fits with your description: its widespread use (though fading, because its performance is pure ass) in the corporate world is mainly for the very reason that it makes programmers rather disposable, and essentially facilitates building distributed bureaucracies over agile ideas. It's a "corridor language" because there is really only one pattern for most of your development. Perl, on the other hand, is absolutely more comparable to an old-school shooter, in that it encourages the notion of there being almost infinitely many alternative ways to approach any problem. Of course that means less maintainable code by another person following you, by definition, but that's the trade-off.

As part of the proof of that trade-off: you'd have a hard time finding hardly any major tech startups in new fields (AI, IoT, embedded systems, anything) that opt for Java today. It would be an extremely unusual choice for building new technology that needs to adapt quickly.

Now, don't get me wrong--Perl is an ingenious scripting language whose incorporation of regexes as a first-tier part of the language was earth-shattering and influenced a ton of later ideas , but I haven't used it for a decade and wouldn't for building applications. My favorite language today is Rust, if I am working on something low-level and can pick freely. Rust is definitely not permissive, by the way--having the most rigorous borrowing / pointer reference system around--but nonetheless offers smart paradigms of trait composition instead of inheritance; functional programming paradigms; and smart pattern matching... all of which lead to more intelligent and nimble solutions than the nightmare of old-school OOP inheritance with stateful instances everywhere.
 
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Life

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Nothing wrong with modern shooters besides the fact that they've been around for too long - it's hard to impress anyone who has played them so many times. As VR/AR tech advances, shooters will probably be the most relevant genre. This could be anywhere between 10 to 50 years. Talking about how to make them better "now", with current tech, mouse and keyboard, is a waste of time.
 
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hariseldon

Unconfirmed Member
I mean, that's the whole point.

The joke I made above is that Java is a corridor-shooter language, and that still fits with your description: its widespread use (though fading, because its performance is pure ass) in the corporate world is mainly for the very reason that it makes programmers rather disposable, and essentially facilitates building distributed bureaucracies over agile ideas. It's a "corridor language" because there is really only one pattern for most of your development. Perl, on the other hand, is absolutely more comparable to an old-school shooter, in that it encourages the notion of there being almost infinitely many alternative ways to approach any problem. Of course that means less maintainable code by another person following you, by definition, but that's the trade-off.

As part of the proof of that trade-off: you'd have a hard time finding hardly any major tech startups in new fields (AI, IoT, embedded systems, anything) that opt for Java today. It would be an extremely unusual choice for building new technology that needs to adapt quickly.

Now, don't get me wrong--Perl is an ingenious scripting language whose incorporation of regexes as a first-tier part of the language was earth-shattering and influenced a ton of later ideas , but I haven't used it for a decade and wouldn't for building applications. My favorite language today is Rust, if I am working on something low-level and can pick freely. Rust is definitely not permissive, by the way--having the most rigorous borrowing / pointer reference system around--but nonetheless offers smart paradigms of trait composition instead of inheritance; functional programming paradigms; and smart pattern matching... all of which lead to more intelligent and nimble solutions than the nightmare of old-school OOP inheritance with stateful instances everywhere.

Put it this way, I'm making a very good living building software in Java and jobs in Java are plentiful and paying well should I need to move. Spring has done an excellent job of speeding up the process of building something in java, and facilitating some fancy microservices gubbins. I would also add that you may be mistaking the prevention of stupidity for a single path. That's far from the case and a good coder is still making judgement calls about what is good or bad on a more philosophical level.

I will however admit that in my current project the Java side has gone from a Struts application in its former version which served all the HTML etc to a Spring application providing APIs for different front-end clients in the version I'm building to replace it. I will confess to having an unreasonable amount of fun with Angular framework (Typescript being the language of choice) so I guess I get a nice bit of variety working on both (and all the infrastructure stuff such as activeMQ, various AWS services, etc).

Back to the point, if it's well-documented and well-thought-out, it's maintainable. It's still possible to fail those in Java, but much harder than it is in PHP (did that shit for 10 years - never again). Anyway, sorry for the side-track.
 
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Put it this way, I'm making a very good living building software in Java and jobs in Java are plentiful and paying well should I need to move. Spring has done an excellent job of speeding up the process of building something in java, and facilitating some fancy microservices gubbins. I would also add that you may be mistaking the prevention of stupidity for a single path. That's far from the case and a good coder is still making judgement calls about what is good or bad on a more philosophical level.

I will however admit that in my current project the Java side has gone from a Struts application in its former version which served all the HTML etc to a Spring application providing APIs for different front-end clients in the version I'm building to replace it. I will confess to having an unreasonable amount of fun with Angular framework (Typescript being the language of choice) so I guess I get a nice bit of variety working on both (and all the infrastructure stuff such as activeMQ, various AWS services, etc).

Back to the point, if it's well-documented and well-thought-out, it's maintainable. It's still possible to fail those in Java, but much harder than it is in PHP (did that shit for 10 years - never again). Anyway, sorry for the side-track.

I mostly meant it as fun infighting in development land--I have java-adjacent friends from time to time who are plenty savvy and throw these insults at their language all the time, expecting the same in return : )

I do enjoy Typescript, by the way--best developer experience for the web, although I'd prefer React (with ideally GraphQL for data layer) over Angular, myself. And I share your PHP hatred... I spent a few years there as well, an eon ago.

Anyhow, I'm definitely deep in the world of microservices and even "serverless" cloud frameworks, like Lambda on AWS, where java just isn't ever likely to be the main choice for various efficiency reasons. As a rule, I love lightweight, loosely coupled pieces and loathe enterprise-level frameworks. And I also work with machine learning quite a bit now, which tends to be worked out in Python then later deployed on something else, but I've never seen Java make a serious stand in AI. So the tools go with what you're building, of course.
 
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Matt_Fox

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Wolfenstein and Doom were themselves an iteration of flick-screen dungeons crawlers and they inherited the more maze-like maps and distinct weapon sets.

The genes of early FPS design can still be found today however. In Call Of Duty of all places, Zombies mode.

Call Of Duty: Zombies + Doom
-Hordes of enemies, check
-Maze-like levels with secret areas and easter eggs, check
-Every gun matters, check
-No cutscenes, check
 
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Rudius

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To me what would benefit today's shooters the most is VR support. Holding the gun in your hands and aiming like in real life totally transforms the experience.
 

Matt_Fox

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To me what would benefit today's shooters the most is VR support. Holding the gun in your hands and aiming like in real life totally transforms the experience.

It's fun in short bursts, and it would be kind of cool to see the original Doom in VR. But most people play games to chill at the end of days work - having to faff around with the headset, and play standing up and waving your arms around is exhausting, plus the gimped in-game movement.
 
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Rikkori

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Definition wars without definitions, how fun. Romero just keeps saying nothing. You know how I know it's nothing? Because look at what he's achieved since - nothing.

Just another has been living in delusions of the past.
 

INC

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movement is where you want to be, slip and slide and bounce off walls, double jump and port through the floors or ceilings, conc jump through the air like a psychopath

that's the frontier


Sounds exactly like a fps id avoid lol

Horses for courses I guess
 

M1chl

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Some years back I showed this same image to a work colleague while saying how excited I was for the new Doom (2016) and that the maps were "maze-like".

His reaction was that he would hate the play a game where he had to look around and explore, since he would just end up getting lost. The map style on the right was better, in his opinion, since it allowed people to just run forward and fire at things.

But this is also a guy who quit a job a 10 minute commute away to do one almost 90 minutes away, so he could do Perl instead of Java. So, not the sharpest tool in the box ...
What the fuck am I even reading, I would do exactly opposite.