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News Dolby Atmos Can Also Support Hundreds of Objects Like PS5’s Tempest Audio Engine, Says Dolby

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SLoWMoTIoN

Unconfirmed Member
Interesting take you have and how it contrasts with Cernys
He made it sound as if the more speakers you have the harder it is to implement, with headphones being the gold standard

They briefly covered all uses for GPU RT in general that doesn't mean it doesn't support audio or graphics RT. Cerny first mentioned audio RT on wired interview


They are leaving it up to developers to implement raytracing

Good thing then that hadphones are the "gold standard" for 3D audio on PS5

From the video:

"virtual surround sound has a lot in common with 3D audio on headphones..."
Is he just use them interchangeably as synonyms or 3D audio is for headphones and virtual surround sound for speakers?
PR speak. It sounds like virtual surround no matter how he phrases it.
 

CJY

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PR speak. It sounds like virtual surround no matter how he phrases it.
From my understanding, 3D spatial audio is a different thing than Virtual Surround Sound. VSS is a subset of 3D spatial audio so VSS can be achieved through these new audio engines, but they aren't anything like old VSS which tries to simulate multiple speakers from only two.

Maybe it's the same, but just newer and better.

I'll hold my hands up and say I'm not educated enough on audio and sound tech to know, so my understanding could be completely wrong.
 

Woo-Fu

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Um

This is how virtual surround works when you wear headphones.

:/
It still sounds to me like rather than playing things properly thru different speakers (or 2) it is going for a custom made virtual surround engine. I hope this isn't their sole focus in sound and people with better equipment don't get shafted because they want to push their virtual surround pro engine. Er 3D audio.

All surround is virtual, doesn't matter how many speakers you have, there is still computation going on. As far as positional audio for gaming goes headphones win every single time. It doesn't matter how much money you spent on your speakers or how many of them you have.

Even for music the same amount of money spent on speakers or headphones you get better fidelity out of the headphones.

As far as what Sony is doing with positional audio on the PS5, no it isn't anything new to the field of audio. They're saving money on Dolby Headphone/Atmos licenses.
 
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S

SLoWMoTIoN

Unconfirmed Member
All surround is virtual, doesn't matter how many speakers you have, there is still computation going on. As far as positional audio for gaming goes headphones win every single time. It doesn't matter how much money you spent on your speakers or how many of them you have.

Even for music the same amount of money spent on speakers or headphones you get better fidelity out of the headphones.

As far as what Sony is doing with positional audio on the PS5, no it isn't anything new to the field of audio. They're saving money on Dolby Headphone/Atmos licenses.
Yes headphones are the budget option.
 

Woo-Fu

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Yes headphones are the budget option.

At any pricepoint headphones give better fidelity, budget doesn't matter. Even sound engineers who have total control of their environment and a profit motive to use the best possible tech still use headphones over speakers.
 
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The Alien

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That's some pretty big shade in between those line.

Basically: "Yeah, the revolutionary audio Sony is doing...we've been doing it for years. And I'll repeat that like 4x in this article.
Also, Microsoft has been doing it to."
 
S

SLoWMoTIoN

Unconfirmed Member
That's not true, there's many advantages to Sony approach

Cheaper than a expensive home theater but the best experience for PS5, the gold standard as Cerny put it
It seems like they are aiming at headphones at the moment because it is cheaper to do so.
 

Swaganizonda

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With audio no amount of emulation and trickery can replace a high quality multi-speaker setup.
Those binaural videos sound like crap on my 7.1 speakers, but amazing on the headphones that came with my chinese android phone.

High quality speakers can't be replaced, but are also not leagues ahead of a good pair of stereo headphones.
 

KlickKlack

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Sony too..... great for Sony users

on xbox since years
 

SonGoku

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Sony too..... great for Sony users

on xbox since years
Nowhere near the same, devs have to specifically develop for it to add hundreds of sources, with every sound having a 3D effect running complex algorithms
Theres no game currently out that features anything like it, because there isn't a standard for devs to target since only a fraction of the users have a dolby atmos peripherals
 
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MisterXDTV

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Nowhere near the same, devs have to specifically develop for it to add hundreds of sources, with every sound having a 3D effect running complex algorithms
Theres no game currently out that features anything like it, because there isn't a standard for devs to target since only a fraction of the users has a dolby atmos peripherals

They won't listen to you. Even though you are right....
 
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BattleScar

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Xbox also has a dedicated audio chip and their Spatial Audio is similar to Sony's 3D audio. What Sony is behind on is Project Acoustics and Audio Ray Tracing.
Dude, Cerny's been talking about using ray-traced audio since the first bloody Wired article last fucking year!

This isn't a zero sum game here. Sony can have Audio ray tracing too. Microsoft don't fucking own the technology.
 
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Bernkastel

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Dude, Cerny's been talking about using ray-traced audio since the first bloody Wired article last fucking year!

This isn't a zero sum game here. Sony can have Audio ray tracing too. Microsoft don't fucking own the technology.
And Microsoft showed a demo in March last year and have been talking about it even before that. The project started in 2012, before Xbox One launch. Parts of that tech were also used in Gears of War 4(2016).
 

GamesAreFun

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I have this hunch that it is more than what dolby atmos offers, why the fuck Sony would otherwise waste so much time to build this dedicated system?

Because theyr'e cheap, and won't license Dolby Atmos. The long presentation describing their 3D Audio is just a bargain-basement version of the Dolby technology, and only sounds impressive because Cerny bamboozled people talking about their ears.
 

BattleScar

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And Microsoft showed a demo in March last year and have been talking about it even before that. The project started in 2012, before Xbox One launch. Parts of that tech were also used in Gears of War 4(2016).
Like I said, its not a zero sum game. I'm sure Microsoft have done excellent work, but that doesn't take anything away from Sony.
Why are you trying to undermine Sony's tech and their efforts in this space?
 

Bernkastel

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Like I said, its not a zero sum game. I'm sure Microsoft have done excellent work, but that doesn't take anything away from Sony.
Why are you trying to undermine Sony's tech and their efforts in this space?
If you go back to my post I said Sony's 3D Audio is like Xbox's Spatial Audio. But Audio Ray Tracing is a different thing, thats why I said Sony is behind in that(in Audio Ray Tracing).
 

Burkatron81

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I think Sony presence approach will resemble something a bit like the below audio tracks. Try them using headphones and close your eyes. The brain does a great job of making you think you're in an actual room with depth. The knock on the door in the second one actually made me think it was in my house. It's a pretty cool effect.

 
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bilderberg

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WIll ps5's 3d audio work with non ps5 games? What I like about Atmos on pc is that it just works with every game.
 

SonGoku

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WIll ps5's 3d audio work with non ps5 games? What I like about Atmos on pc is that it just works with every game.
No, this has to be inplemented by devs and is more advanced than your average PC game with atmos support
 

ZehDon

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I remember back to special features on The Lord of The Rings: The Return of the King, where the sound-mixers were discussing the battle of Pelennor fields - the huge siege of the Gondor capital. They highlighted that having "hundreds of sounds" just created noise, and was incredibly difficult to actually watch, as you ears were drawing attention to the one or two key sounds they picked up on. So, they just pulled out all the sound, watched the scenes mute, and then added back in the sounds that matched the visuals. They ended up with a dozen or so sounds in any given battle scene - despite literally hundreds of thousands of horses, elephants, trolls, and other creatures all fighting around the camera. For example, they discovered that only adding sound to the footsteps from the elephant's front two feet was enough to convince the audience, and prevented an avalanche of footsteps from covering the soundscape. Sometimes, less is more.

I think the power of the Tempest Engine will be its ability to produce binaural audio from non-binaural recordings. That's actually really cool, and a fantastic feature that should get people excited. But focusing in on "hundreds of sounds" just goes back to the sound-mixers in The Return of the King.
 
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SonGoku

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i dont know why though. Games dont need atmos support to benefit from using atmos.
Because the results are different
Their objective is to have hundreds of sources, with every sound having a 3D effect running complex algorithms, there are no games out that feature anywhere near this level of complexity.
 

bilderberg

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I remember back to special features on The Lord of The Rings: The Return of the King, where the sound-mixers were discussing the battle of Pelennor fields - the huge siege of the Gondor capital. They highlighted that having "hundreds of sounds" just created noise, and was incredibly difficult to actually watch, as you ears were drawing attention to the one or two key sounds they picked up on. So, they just pulled out all the sound, watched the scenes mute, and then added back in the sounds that matched the visuals. They ended up with a dozen or so sounds in any given battle scene - despite literally hundreds of thousands of horses, elephants, trolls, and other creatures all fighting around the camera. For example, they discovered that only adding sound to the footsteps from the elephant's front two feet was enough to convince the audience, and prevented an avalanche of footsteps from covering the soundscape. Sometimes, less is more.

I think the power of the Tempest Engine will be its ability to produce binaural audio from non-binaural recordings. That's actually really cool, and a fantastic feature that should get people excited. But focusing in on "hundreds of sounds" just goes back to the sound-mixers in The Return of the King.
that works for a movie when you're cutting around to many different locations and perspectives quickly. A person playing a game, occupying a single space in time from a singular pov, isn't going to get lost in too many sounds.
 

Truespeed

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I wonder how much Dolby charges for their licencing and whether that additional functionality comes at an additional cost.
 

Shin

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False, if you bothered to watch the presentation you'd know theres inherent advantages to Sonys aproach
Normally a person quotes or elaborates what is better* to build upon their claim, which is rather absurd.
Yes Sony makes audio products, I believe their first product was related to audio, hell even my first electronics was - My First Walkman.
But for the longest of time we've heard that the department don't work together much, even to this day you can see it in their products.

There's a lot of things under Sony music, but none of it seem to have contributed to PlayStation's "Tempest" solution or it would have been mentioned.
To discredit a company who's sole/primary business is audio based one way or the other versus whatever solution PlayStation cooked up is either ignorant or just plain stupid.
 

ZehDon

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that works for a movie when you're cutting around to many different locations and perspectives quickly. A person playing a game, occupying a single space in time from a singular pov, isn't going to get lost in too many sounds.
I disagree, to a point. I think, for a game, it's more about sound queues assisting gameplay. The less number of sounds, the more actionable they become. The obvious examples are big bombastic First Person Shooters, but let's go a little different, and use Resident Evil 2 remake for an example. Creeping through the Police Station, a lot of the sound in the game... doesn't actually exist. When you walk through a door into a new room, the sound from the previous space is pared back enormously. This is to ensure the sounds you're hearing line up with the immediacy of the gameplay. You're not having to pick through the different noises of the zombies in the different close-by rooms, trying to figure out which ones you need to be aware of. Because of the dynamic sound mix, when you hear something, you know its important. I also chose RE2 remake because it features a software version of the kind of 3D Audio that Sony is baking into the hardware for the PS5, so I feel like it represents a pretty solid example of how best to utilise this type of system.
 

SonGoku

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Normally a person quotes or elaborates what is better* to build upon their claim, which is rather absurd.
I already did on the first page, didn't want to repeat myself unless someone asked
Cerny did say they would have preferred a simpler strategy like going with Dolby Atmos but
  1. They wanted audio for all
  2. Hundreds of advanced sound sources
  3. Wanting an overwhelming amount of processing power, it wasn't clear what every peripheral might have (multitude of specs)
Does dolby have the following features mentioned by Cerny?
  • Hundreds of advanced sound sources - Every sound has 3D effect running complex algorithms
  • Provide a set of HRTF settings to choose from
  • Off load audio processing from CPU, allocate power to games that want to use convolution reverb and other algorithms that are computational expensive or need high bandwidth
Finally and most important in my opinion: if every PS5 owner can take advantage of it that means it will get much better developer support than if it were a peripheral with a multitude of configurations that only a fraction of the userbase possess
 

RaySoft

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Like I said Sony's audio is nothing special. It's already been done.
Really? Can you support that claim? It's easy to slap a logo on something and everyone thinks it's great.. "it got the logo, It's fine"
The point is, like Cerny said, audio never gets first pick of the table.. Dolby has ofc some fine tech, but to produce results it also needs it's cycles.
On PS5, they have their own block on the APU. Dolby uses CPU cycles. They can ofcourse compare with tempest, but that would need more CPU cycles..
Does the "balanced" word start to sink in now?
 
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farmerboy

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Nowhere near the same, devs have to specifically develop for it to add hundreds of sources, with every sound having a 3D effect running complex algorithms
Theres no game currently out that features anything like it, because there isn't a standard for devs to target since only a fraction of the users have a dolby atmos peripherals

You'd think people get this but they don't. And of course Dolby can do this, but there isn't a dedicated Dolby chip in the xbox.

I was most disappointed when I realised the ps4 was no where near the ps3 for audio. Tempest will be amazing.
 
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-kb-

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Really? Can you support that claim? It's easy to slap a logo on something and everyone thinks it's great.. "it got the logo, It's fine"
The point is, like Cerny said, audio never gets first pick of the table.. Dolby has ofc some fine tech, but to produce results it also needs it's cycles.
On PS5, they have their own block on the APU. Dolby uses CPU cycles. They can ofcourse compare with tempest, but that would need more CPU cycles..
Does the "balanced" word start to sink in now?

The amount of power thats been dedicated to audio on the PS5 is actually pretty significant, I don't think people quite understand how much ~110 GFLOPS is as its a kinda abstract number. To put it in perspective, its the same as running a Zen2 core @ 3.5Ghz at 100% utilisation just for audio.
 

RaySoft

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The amount of power thats been dedicated to audio on the PS5 is actually pretty significant, I don't think people quite understand how much ~110 GFLOPS is as its a kinda abstract number. To put it in perspective, its the same as running a Zen2 core @ 3.5Ghz at 100% utilisation just for audio.
Forget the numbers man.. Let them rather experiece it when it's available.
People are jumping all over the place nowadays. Let them scream and have "their" moment now. They will be silenced next year.
 
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RiccochetJ

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In case anyone thinks that there's a need to buy headphones that have a "Dolby Atmos Ready " or anything on the side of the box:
 
Feb 14, 2010
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Really? Can you support that claim? It's easy to slap a logo on something and everyone thinks it's great.. "it got the logo, It's fine"
The point is, like Cerny said, audio never gets first pick of the table.. Dolby has ofc some fine tech, but to produce results it also needs it's cycles.
On PS5, they have their own block on the APU. Dolby uses CPU cycles. They can ofcourse compare with tempest, but that would need more CPU cycles..
Does the "balanced" word start to sink in now?
Sony just slapped a cool name on it and people are eating it up. Sony is helping pushing the medium it isn't groundbreaking. It's already been done.
 
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Xbox also has a dedicated audio chip and their Spatial Audio is similar to Sony's 3D audio. What Sony is behind on is Project Acoustics and Audio Ray Tracing.
No it isnt, its completly diverent, watch Digital Foundry again.
 
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Nice, but how much resource they have to use of the CPU to get those hundreds of sources?
Dude it is a dedicated chip, it does not use the CPU, the comments here from Xboxfanboys are just amusing...realy they are. Most of them have no clue where they are talking about.
 

IbizaPocholo

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