Support NeoGAF

[BRZBlue]

Literally everything is the same except scaled down appropriately for the target resolution.

Screen Resolution and Texture Resolution are different things though.

There's a reason people can play a game at 1080p, and the one running a hi-res 4k texture pack looks better than the 1080p version with 1080 textures.

Take a first person game. Even at 1080p, if you run up to a wall, or crouch and look at the ground, that texture is gonna look pretty pixelated and ugly, just because its a smaller texture. If that was a 4k texture, it wouldn't be as pixelated and ugly because its a bigger image, and you can get closer to it without it looking the same.

Higher res textures are going to always look better at closer distances regardless of screen resolution.

 

[Clear]

Series S is problematic specifically because its the same OS and system architecture as the Series X, but much weaker. ironically the problem is due to the closeness, not just because its less powerful.

Basically MS' pitch to devs is that its the same code-base, but compiled under two different target profiles. Its good for labor saving, but it means the weaker profile is the de-facto baseline architecturally. This is more compromising than maintaining two builds targetting two dfferent generations of target hardware.

The two operational modes on the Sony titles is a whole other thing because they utilize an identical resource pool but in two different ways.

 

[Whitecrow]

XSS = same game, lower resolution, theorically, we will see...

PS5 performance mode = same game, lower resolution, double the frame rate

So yeah it's not the same?

 

[NoMoChokeSJ]

Are you serious? What does having a performance mode have to do with the XSS? Mods have to cut down on these trolls threads.

It's not a troll thread, so don't get your panties in a bunch. Performance modes often reduce resolution or remove some graphic effects in order to be less demanding in the hardware allowing them to run at a high frame rate. There are already lots examples of this occuring in both the Xbox One-X and the PS4 Pro. MS essentially claims that next gen games will run on the series S but at a lower resolution because it has the same architecture as the Series X. Many in these forums have claimed that this lower spec's machine will hold back MS games, but to me it seems that what developers do for performance modes is similar in way. The fact that the competing platform is able to include performance modes in a game like R&C brings up the question that if performance mode doesn't hold back R&C why would implimenting similar techniques to run on the S hold back Series X games. I'm a way couldn't one argue that Series S games are just Series X games run in performance mode?

 

[NullZ3r0]

I was just thinking that the new R&C game is including a performance mode in it to improve FPS. We know that it does so by sacrificing resolution and potentially some graphical effects. This makes me wonder that if dropping down to 4K dynamic in order to get 60 FPS, what kind of power does it take to get to 1440p/60 or 1440p/30? Are we talking PS Pro level of power, sans the SSD? If so does the inclusion of Performance modes in these games show the validity in the claims of scalability for the Series-S? If not, how is the scalability for Performance mode any different than what MS claims can be achieved on its 1440P console?

I await the entertaining mental gymnastics to follow.

I posed a similar question in another thread. If somehow, 4K resolution no longer matters then the Series S will be the biggest selling console next generation.

But we know this isn't true. The real truth is that since Sony no longer has the power crown, PS fanboys have to back pedal once again. Now 4K doesn't matter, both consoles are under-powered and if you want real 4K gaming go buy a PC.

 

[rob305]

Can't wait to see Ratchet and Clank on Xbox series S...

Spoiler

 

[NullZ3r0]

I kinda think no in a way. If the PS5 is doing games at 1440 to increase graphical fidelity otherwise, what does that mean for XSX? Potentially nothing but does XSX require 4K native output? If so that means no Xbox games will “look as good” as a PS5 game that can output at 1440 because the horsepower just isn’t there to make up for that res difference. But if the XSX does drop to 1440 for better graphics, what does that mean for the XSS?

Maybe MS should have only done the X ...

Series X has 2 TFLOPS more, sustained. And that's assuming that the PS5 is running at boost clocks. There will be a noticeable difference.

 

[Stilton Disco]

Doesn't this invalidate the idea that the Series S will run everything fine at a lower resolution, not prove it?

If that graphical grunt is needed to be repurposed to ensure better performance, than is that not a warning that the significant drop in power the S has will potentially also have negative consequences for performance in games, designed as they would be to leverage a stronger GPU for additional frames?

 

[Apocryphon]

People are confident that Microsofts new consoles will do what Microsoft claim they will do... without actually seeing any next gen games running on the hardware...

Is the argument still valid if reconstruction techniques are used to hit 1440p on Series S?

I don't know if I buy into MS's plan with Series S but it does look like it will be good for consumers, at least early on. Given that the main reason to buy it is the price point, what happens when Series X manufacturing costs are reduced? Do we see a smaller, more energy efficient and cheaper X? Do MS also produce a 2nd, mid-gen model S for $199?

Time will tell I guess.

What I do find crazy is that PS5, like PS4 Pro before it, will clearly be rendering plenty of games internally at 1440p and then checkerboarding up to 4K. I don't have a problem with checkerboarding, but it's frustrating that they don't support 1440p out as a native resolution. Plenty of people will be buying 1440p144 monitors for next-gen and will end up stuck with a 1080p output.

 

[NoMoChokeSJ]

Series S is problematic specifically because its the same OS and system architecture as the Series X, but much weaker. ironically the problem is due to the closeness, not just because its less powerful.

Basically MS' pitch to devs is that its the same code-base, but compiled under two different target profiles. Its good for labor saving, but it means the weaker profile is the de-facto baseline architecturally. This is more compromising than maintaining two builds targetting two dfferent generations of target hardware.

The two operational modes on the Sony titles is a whole other thing because they utilize an identical resource pool but in two different ways.

I don't get this argument. If Sony reduced the resolution to R&C further but still capped the frame rate at 30 FPS one would think the resource pool would just not be completely utilized, much like PC. I can play a game with everything on high on a PC and reduce resolution and it makes a dramatic effect on performance without degrading fidelity. I'm sure this is probably an over simplification of the process but it seems like the most equivalent. You are essentially saying that the Sony can develop for PS5 but still turn things down to perform better on it, but MS can't even though their systems (S&X) have similar architecture. This makes zero sense to me because Sony could reduce the resolution to 1440P and it would see rational that they would hit a point where they don't utilize all of the resources available.

 

[Bruno_Arrais85]

let's wait and see Microsoft to show their games. So far, nothing.

 

[On Demand]

It's not a troll thread, so don't get your panties in a bunch. Performance modes often reduce resolution or remove some graphic effects in order to be less demanding in the hardware allowing them to run at a high frame rate. There are already lots examples of this occuring in both the Xbox One-X and the PS4 Pro. MS essentially claims that next gen games will run on the series S but at a lower resolution because it has the same architecture as the Series X. Many in these forums have claimed that this lower spec's machine will hold back MS games, but to me it seems that what developers do for performance modes is similar in way. The fact that the competing platform is able to include performance modes in a game like R&C brings up the question that if performance mode doesn't hold back R&C why would implimenting similar techniques to run on the S hold back Series X games. I'm a way couldn't one argue that Series S games are just Series X games run in performance mode?

Again.....are you serious??????

How is coding for a performance mode ON A FIXED SPEC HARDWARE the same as coding for one on 2 DIFFERENT SPECED HARDWARE?

Developers will have to cut back and reduce graphics for the XSS. The GPU is significantly weaker than PS5’s. How on earth did you come to the conclusion that R&C performance mode is the same as what developers will be doing with the XSS? PS5 is one spec. All developers are doing is changing a few things to offer different graphic modes on the same hardware. Developers will have to change a lot of graphical settings to accommodate the XSS hardware which has less ram, less CU, less TF, less of everything GPU related.

It’s not the same thing at all.

 

[Clear]

This makes zero sense to me because Sony could reduce the resolution to 1440P and it would see rational that they would hit a point where they don't utilize all of the resources available.

Why would they want to underutilize resources they have to hand and in fact are using to their fullest in Fidelity mode?

If they could run with all bells and whistles at maximum framerate and at maximum resolution they would do right? And if that were the case they wouldn't need a performance mode!

Its about balancing the utilization of system resources (which are not homogenous) within the finite limits imposed by the fixed-spec system they are running on. With S as a baseline, then the limits are tighter. Yes, they may have greater headroom to improve, but what they can practically apply that headroom for is more restricted because they need to be constantly aware that the lower bound is always in play when running on the S.

With the performance/fidelity dichotomy on PS5 titles, the underlying resources available are consistent allowing devs to freely redistribute them to their full effect in order to give the best result under the desired criteria.

 

[RaySoft]

Series S is a 1440p/30|60 machine for last-gen games and a 1080p/30 machine for next-gen titles.

 

[Karak]

Gaf will say no
Rational thinkers will say of course, and I told you so

Lol sort of. Even the devs we talk to on both sides are like ya we can do it easily the way the S is set up.
Then someone in a forum is like NO U CAN'T!

 

[SlimySnake]

I was just thinking that the new R&C game is including a performance mode in it to improve FPS. We know that it does so by sacrificing resolution and potentially some graphical effects. This makes me wonder that if dropping down to 4K dynamic in order to get 60 FPS, what kind of power does it take to get to 1440p/60 or 1440p/30? Are we talking PS Pro level of power, sans the SSD? If so does the inclusion of Performance modes in these games show the validity in the claims of scalability for the Series-S? If not, how is the scalability for Performance mode any different than what MS claims can be achieved on its 1440P console?

they are still using all 10 tflops to do either 4k 30 or 1440p 60.

what MS is asking for is something completely different. they are taking a native 4k 30 fps game running at 12 tflops, and saying it will run at 1440p 30 fps on 4 tflops. maybe if they had 6 tflops and equivalent vram allocation that might be possible.

And the scalability argument falls apart the moment you realize that UE5 runs at 1440p 30 fps. And so will most next gen games after the initial cross gen period. how do you scale down a 1440p 30 fps game to 4 tflops? 1/3rd of 3.6 million pixels is 1.2 million pixels which is 800p. and thats before any vram limitations.

so MS is promising 1440p and will be giving you 1/3rd the resolution when actual next gen games arrive.

 

[BRZBlue]

Lol sort of. Even the devs we talk to on both sides are like ya we can do it easily the way the S is set up.
Then someone in a forum is like NO U CAN'T!

Except for the devs who said it wasn't really a good idea... then deleted their tweets after MS bought their company, LOL.

 

[GametimeUK]

When it comes to game scaling I'll always stand by the fact we have The Witcher 3 running on Switch. Xbox Series S should be fine. We have multiple GPU's in the PC space that can run the same game at different levels of detail.

Why are so many people upset about R&C? Did they honestly just think the only difference would be the framerate?

 

[yurinka]

I was just thinking that the new R&C game is including a performance mode in it to improve FPS. We know that it does so by sacrificing resolution and potentially some graphical effects. This makes me wonder that if dropping down to 4K dynamic in order to get 60 FPS, what kind of power does it take to get to 1440p/60 or 1440p/30? Are we talking PS Pro level of power, sans the SSD? If so does the inclusion of Performance modes in these games show the validity in the claims of scalability for the Series-S? If not, how is the scalability for Performance mode any different than what MS claims can be achieved on its 1440P console?

Series S reduces the power of Series X to a third and has 6GB less of memory. It can't even run the XB1X version of the BC games, will use the XB1S one. The games are going to look way worse in Series S than in Series X.

In the same way that we didn't see the promised 120fps in the Series X BC games, you won't see next gen AAA games running at 1440p on series S, they will mostly be 1080p there. And well, their difference with the Series X won't end there, must be big.

It isn't the same, Ratchet will let you choose between a game looking great at 60fps or super fucking great at 30fps, both are going to look great. Most likely like similar next gen only games on Series X. We'll know in 2023 or so once they start releaseing next gen only AAA exclusives there.

The difference is going to be huge between compared to the ones mentioned in the Ratchet game. And since they will release all their MS published games on XBO for a couple of years (and many cross gen multis too), having XB1X I don't see the point of releasing Series S.

 

[NoMoChokeSJ]

Again.....are you serious??????

How is coding for a performance mode ON A FIXED SPEC HARDWARE the same as coding for one on 2 DIFFERENT SPECED HARDWARE?

Developers will have to cut back and reduce graphics for the XSS. The GPU is significantly weaker than PS5’s. How on earth did you come to the conclusion that R&C performance mode is the same as what developers will be doing with the XSS? PS5 is one spec. All developers are doing is changing a few things to offer different graphic modes on the same hardware. Developers will have to change a lot of graphical settings to accommodate the XSS hardware which has less ram, less CU, less TF, less of everything GPU related.

It’s not the same thing at all.

I don't know. Maybe you are one, but I'm not a programmer, hence the asking of the question. I've been a PC gamer my entire life and I know a resolution drop can be a dramatic performance increaser, especially in regards to 4k. I get that the series s has less ram, slower ram, and a significantly less powerful gpu. But lets be honest too.. heavy lifting requires heavy equipment, but lighter lifting requirements are less than proportional with 4k. With powerful equipment there is a point where the gpu and ram become under utilized and the requirements to run efficiently are less. The question is where is that point. If dropping R&C down to a dynamic resolution from 4k allows it enough overhead to double it's frame rate, how under utilized is the PS5 with the same game at 1440P and a locked 30fps? You keep saying it can't be done, but the question is why? There are thousands upon thousands of PC games that refute this.

 

[Orky]

As the generation goes on 1440p will be too demanding for the Xbox Series S.

well, we already have plenty of PS5 first party games that can’t hold native 4K, so how will PS5 manage that as the generation goes on? Will we see 720p first party games or what are you trying to say?

 

[DForce]

well, we already have plenty of PS5 first party games that can’t hold native 4K, so how will PS5 manage that as the generation goes on? Will we see 720p first party games or what are you trying to say?

Both XsX and PS5 will have dynamic resolution, but it won't be far from 4K.

You're now talking about a 4TF console in comparison to a 10.28TF and 12.1TF console

 

[Gamerguy84]

Don't a ton pf AAA demanding games have graphics/performance modes? This isn't new unless im misunderstanding the question.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

I'll scale your ability.

You can turn off effects, lower resolutions and stuff like that but there's always going to be a base the game is founded on and how strong that base can be is determined by target hardware.

 

[Stooky]

Xss has ram limitation, not the same thing.

 

[S0ULZB0URNE]

I was just thinking that the new R&C game is including a performance mode in it to improve FPS. We know that it does so by sacrificing resolution and potentially some graphical effects. This makes me wonder that if dropping down to 4K dynamic in order to get 60 FPS, what kind of power does it take to get to 1440p/60 or 1440p/30? Are we talking PS Pro level of power, sans the SSD? If so does the inclusion of Performance modes in these games show the validity in the claims of scalability for the Series-S? If not, how is the scalability for Performance mode any different than what MS claims can be achieved on its 1440P console?

 

[Three]

Why would a PS5 exclusive game validate scalability on the series s?

I don't think anyone has said that scalability isn't possible but it's how things scale. If the majority of an install base is on some low power device then games often are made to look as best they can for that large install base device and scaled wastefully and easily for the more powerful low install base devices. Look at One S and One X. The One X sometimes even had effects missing that the PS4 had because they just scaled the One S version to 4k resolution. No games were made to look as best they can on a One X or PS4 Pro. They were just scaled easily and wastefully in res or fps.

The same thing happened with Halo Infinite. Game looked poor but it had 'dynamic 4K or 120fps' modes.

 

[S0ULZB0URNE]

Xss has ram limitation, not the same thing.

Try a 4TF limitation

 

[NickFire]

The argument about the Series S is primarily about how Series X will be affected by the Series S. There is going to be a threshold where certain things the X can do are not commercially viable because S won't be able to do them. And either Series S, PS5, or Series X will be able to do some things better by implementing performance mode (and reducing other things). Performance mode on a single sku is not proof of what a separate sku can do IMO.

 

[Oddvintagechap]

Some developers will aim for 1440p 30fps to really push things.
By having a weaker comsole. They can only use the extra power for resolution and frames.

 

[EverydayBeast]

This will be a must play game.

 

[NoMoChokeSJ]

I'll scale your ability.

You can turn off effects, lower resolutions and stuff like that but there's always going to be a base the game is founded on and how strong that base can be is determined by target hardware.

Sure, but by reducing that stuff target hardware is no longer the requirement to run it. If 4k/30fps R&C is the base and requires 10TF of power to run it, why couldn't a lesser system run it at 1440P/30fps? I guess the question is are you adding effects to the base or taking them away? Regardless, less resolution will require less power to run on a game that is designed around 4k. Maybe I just don't know enough technically to understand it, but I can't see how performance modes (reduction of resolution and effects) is not the equivalent of scaling. This is exactly what you do in PC gaming.. shut off effects and change resolution.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

Sure, but by reducing that stuff target hardware is no longer the requirement to run it. If 4k/30fps R&C is the base and requires 10TF of power to run it, why couldn't a lesser system run it at 1440P/30fps? I guess the question is are you adding effects to the base or taking them away? Regardless, less resolution will require less power to run on a game that is designed around 4k. Maybe I just don't know enough technically to understand it, but I can't see how performance modes (reduction of resolution and effects) is not the equivalent of scaling. This is exactly what you do in PC gaming.. shut off effects and change resolution.

Scaling exists it's just about how far you can scale and that it's easier to scale up than down.

 

[McCheese]

No, quite the opposite. The games primary target is 30fps with graphical fidelity set to high.

The alternative they are offering is 60fps with lower quality visuals, but running on the same 9tf hardware.

Now ask yourself what "setting" they would need for 4tf hardware. 15fps low graphics, 30 fps even lower graphics? Is that what you want any "next gen" title to offer?

 

[NoMoChokeSJ]

No, quite the opposite. The games primary target is 30fps with graphical fidelity set to high.

The alternative they are offering is 60fps with lower quality visuals, but running on the same 9tf hardware.

Now ask yourself what "setting" they would need for 4tf hardware. 15fps low graphics, 30 fps even lower graphics? Is that what you want any "next gen" title to offer?

I don't know. That is the question. If they can effectively double the frame rate by going to dynamic resolution, what TF requirements would there be for 1440P/30? Only the developer can answer that.

 

[Dolomite]

Lol sort of. Even the devs we talk to on both sides are like ya we can do it easily the way the S is set up.
Then someone in a forum is like NO U CAN'T!

Lol exactly the GDK MS provides allows devs to use one code for multiple SKU'. Optimization after....almost like....PC?

 

[the_master]

On the contrary.
If games need a performance mode on the main hardware, how will the weaker hardware catch up?

 

[BeardGawd]

The Series S was very smart for MS as a whole. Not only is it a cheap entry way into next gen/game pass. It also ensures that PC GPUs around the same performance level should have games optimized for atleast 1080p. Extending the longevity of that tier GPU. This will also help for Laptops as they become more and more powerful. Also cheaper blades for xcloud. Pretty forward thinking on MS's part.

 

[AgentP]

These threads are rediculous. 90% of the games next gen are going to be sub 4k, dynamic res, have multiple modes for trade offs, etc. This is just engineering, MS and Sony are going to have the same issues. The Seris S is just going to be a 1080P 60 or 1440/30 box for next gen games, don't get your hopes up for much else.

 

[Die Namek Ability]

 

[TLZ]

Eh? Can you achieve the same fidelity and performance on a 4tf? Maybe at 720p.