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Digital Foundry: Xbox Series X ray tracing performance <= 2060 Super

Md Ray

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Spiderman MM reflections are complete garbage compared to WD:L reflections.
 

sinnergy

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We get RT.. many thought 2 years ago we wouldn’t and that it wasn’t even needed on consoles ...

it will only get better as devs get into the new consoles and hack better RT perf.
 
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Magik85

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(...)many thought 2 years ago we wouldn’t and that it wasn’t even needed on consoles (...)

Many (including me) still think so :p
If it was my choice i would never trade more accurate puddles for half the framerate...
 

McCheese

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How when it looks better and factually does everything closer to CG like reflections are supposed to. It runs the original shaders when it reflects, it reflects other reflections from water puddles, it reflects smoke, leaves, etc.. It's clearly a better quality implementation than MM. Not sure how some of you can't see that. MM is taking out so much from the reflections it's not even funny.

And yet watchdogs looks worse as it reverts to cubemaps way too close from the player, I can see the shortcomings in regular gameplay all the time.

When your swinging around in Spiderman you don't notice the little things unless you stop and stare, but you do notice you can see reflection of buildings all the way over on the other side of the city.

MM have a better implementation IMO. or to rephrase, they have done a better job artistically with the RT abilities the host machine has.

Wait for the PC version of MM and compare them on equal hardware.
 
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Monkeygourmet

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No PC game will ever trump the popularity game of you PS warriors. There is nothing magically stunning about any of the exclusives but subjectivity and popularity. If we were to examine at the actual pixel level of these games and their many shortcuts, you'll find that many many games with PC @ Ultra settings have way better rendering quality than the consoles..as it should... it has the GPU power to add in higher fidelity rendering.

Consoles always punch above their weight and coupled with big money and resources going to big studios we always end up seeing more impressive things in the console space.

That’s the same every single generation.
 

phil_t98

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Mhm this may be true for old generations. But since they moved to an easy to program architecture last gen, the gains aren't that huge. Infamous Second Son is still one of the better looking PS4 games if you ask me.


not when you compare it to The Last of us 2
 

Dampf

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I just hope this low-end ray tracing doesn't hold PC gaming back over the next few years, because the tech is going to grow by leaps and bounds and the GPUs are going to get much more capable.
If anything, this is very good news because it means developers are forced to do more trickery to get Raytracing more performant. On PC this means a wider range of hardware can use RT by using console optimizations increasing adaption and at the same time it means it can be cranked up much further and use PCs to full potential.
 

VFXVeteran

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And yet watchdogs looks worse as it reverts to cubemaps way too close from the player, I can see the shortcomings in regular gameplay all the time.

MM have a better implementation IMO. or to rephrase, they have done a better job artistically with the RT abilities the host machine has.

There implementation isn't of an opinion variety. That's what you guys don't understand. It's simply NOT better.

I also wish you would stop comparing the PC's lower end hardware to the consoles. The PC comparision should be made with a top end GPU that utilizes the entire 3d feature set for the game. Ultra settings will blow away any of the Spiderman MM looks.
 
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VFXVeteran

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Its Ubisoft. Don't expect quality optimization ever.

This is a silly and judgemental statement that has 0 fact in basis. No one on these boards who isn't in a position of authority should be making such a stupid and uninformed statement.

It's equivalent to people claiming 9T for the PS5. These kinds of comments should be bannable as it's spreads FUD like no other.
 

Jigsaah

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Saw this in the Watch Dogs video by Alex. He found xbox series x settings in the PC version of Watch Dogs. PS5 settings are there too (Prospero) and they are near identical to the xsx settings. So this should mean both Xbox and PS5 are equivalent to a 2060 Super when it comes to ray tracing.

2060 Super ray tracing doesnt have checkerboarding and does several things better (texture clarity, AF etc) while maintaining the same framerate in like to like sections. Outdoors, the xsx version basically runs at 1440p while the 2060 super seems to offer 24 fps at native 4k which should become 48 fps when going down to 1440p.

Timestamped:

He didnt have the PS5 version but since the settings are identical (reflections checkerboard at 1080p), it seems the PS5 ray tracing performance should be identical.

Not a good first effort by AMD in my opinion, if their 12 tflops gpu is offering worse performance in ray traced games than a 7 tflops nvidia gpu then we are going to have a pretty lame gen. Hopefully most devs just skip ray tracing altogether and go the Demon Souls route.

P.S The XSX is supposedly as strong as a 2080 according to Microsoft in Gears. so standard rasterization performance is pretty good for RDNA 2.0 GPUs.
The game is 30 fps. Automatically disqualifies it in my book. And then it's ubisoft, which, firstly, means it's optimization is shit. Secondly, they likely rushed it as many are saying they rushed AC Valhalla. Ubisoft constantly goes with the mantra, "release it broken, fix it if we care". I'll wait to see Raytracing in a game that matters, namely Cyberpunk.
 

Armorian

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The game is 30 fps. Automatically disqualifies it in my book. And then it's ubisoft, which, firstly, means it's optimization is shit. Secondly, they likely rushed it as many are saying they rushed AC Valhalla. Ubisoft constantly goes with the mantra, "release it broken, fix it if we care". I'll wait to see Raytracing in a game that matters, namely Cyberpunk.

And you're a console gamer? :pie_thinking:
 
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Ev1L AuRoN

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The game is 30 fps. Automatically disqualifies it in my book. And then it's ubisoft, which, firstly, means it's optimization is shit. Secondly, they likely rushed it as many are saying they rushed AC Valhalla. Ubisoft constantly goes with the mantra, "release it broken, fix it if we care". I'll wait to see Raytracing in a game that matters, namely Cyberpunk.
Its what happen when you make a state of art engine. What you call optimizations are mere cuts in fidelity maded in such a way that most casual gamers won't notice. Ubisoft is one of the companies that really push technology in their games, you can say that they have trouble downgrading properly to consoles. I'm tired of people that thinks that a optimized engine is the one the runs great in mid-tier hardware. There is nothing wrong in take full advance of the power available on high end PC.
 
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Edgelord79

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This is a silly and judgemental statement that has 0 fact in basis. No one on these boards who isn't in a position of authority should be making such a stupid and uninformed statement.

It's equivalent to people claiming 9T for the PS5. These kinds of comments should be bannable as it's spreads FUD like no other
Most games they put out have terrible optimization. It's not "FUD". Their games are riddled with this stuff to the point most people just roll their eyes at it now.

How on earth is this bannable? And why are you so triggered?

Edit: I see you are a developer so I understand now. This was not a slight at you directly. It's more frustration after numerous ports and releases by Ubisoft and poor performance.
 
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FireFly

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There implementation isn't of an opinion variety. That's what you guys don't understand. It's simply NOT better.

I also wish you would stop comparing the PC's lower end hardware to the consoles. The PC comparision should be made with a top end GPU that utilizes the entire 3d feature set for the game. Ultra settings will blow away any of the Spiderman MM looks.
If the question is which set of tradeoffs delivers the best visual return, then you have to compare at the same performance levels. So for consoles, you should compare the PS5 version of Watchdogs Legion to MM.

(And yes, even on PC not everyone can afford to buy a 3090, so optimisations matter)
 
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McCheese

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There implementation isn't of an opinion variety. That's what you guys don't understand. It's simply NOT better.

I also wish you would stop comparing the PC's lower end hardware to the consoles. The PC comparision should be made with a top end GPU that utilizes the entire 3d feature set for the game. Ultra settings will blow away any of the Spiderman MM looks.

You might want to sit down for this, as it may shock you. But how good a game looks, isn't just based on how technically advanced it's rendering techniques are.

I've played both games, Spiderman's reflections are more impressive. the reflections don't transition into cube maps 5m from the player and the skyscrapers present an almost ideal scenario for RT. The distortion they added to the large surfaces as you climb up them is also a nice touch that is very noticeable in gameplay.

You get very defensive because in your view it's not as technically competent, but that's not my argument.
 
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VFXVeteran

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If the question is which set of tradeoffs delivers the best visual return, then you have to compare at the same performance levels. So for consoles, you should compare the PS5 version of Watchdogs Legion to MM.

(And yes, even on PC not everyone can afford to buy a 3090, so optimisations matter)

I understand this. But that's not how the PS warriors argue. They will do this:

1) Take a 2060 GPU and evaluate it's graphics settings and declare this is how the PC looks at it's best.
2) Take the 3rd party game and judge it's visuals based on the console port and compare it to their 1st party game and conclude that the 1st party game runs circles around the 3rd party port.

AND THEN

conclude that the 1st party game looks better than the 3rd party game running on a high-end PC GPU with Ultra settings (i.e. 3080/3090).

There is the disconnect....when you confront them about the specifics of how the tech is way behind on the console, they revert to "it looks better TO ME" or "the art makes my game look better".

And the cycle continues over and over again...
 

VFXVeteran

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You might want to sit down for this, as it may shock you. But how good a game looks, isn't just based on how technically advanced it's rendering techniques are.

I've played both games, Spiderman's reflections are more impressive. the reflections don't transition into cube maps 5m from the player and the skyscrapers present an almost ideal scenario for RT. The distortion they added to the large surfaces as you climb up them is also a nice touch that is very noticeable in gameplay.

You get very defensive because in your view it's not as technically competent, but that's not my argument.

Can you show me what reflection looks better in MM than PC with Ultra settings at 4k in WD:L? Can we actually examine just the reflection itself and what it represents? Since we are looking at arbitrary scene data, subjective opinion is useless since are only seeing props, NPCs, etc..

Don't just say "it looks better to me and that's that." You guys do realize you troll people who say a different game is better looking than YOUR game right?

MY FACT!
Spiderman MM reflections are complete garbage compared to WD:L reflections.

GAVE THIS TROLL MEME
 
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FireFly

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I understand this. But that's not how the PS warriors argue.
The person you were replying to specifically said that MM does "a better job artistically with the RT abilities the host machine has".

So the comparison was not with a 3090, but with a different set of techniques running on the PS5.

Arguing in good faith requires responding to the specific point someone made, rather than the point you think they really meant to make, or the claims that you attribute to them because they are part of some collective.
 

regawdless

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not when you compare it to The Last of us 2

Comparing the PS4 Pro versions, the difference isn't that huge in my opinion. Especially if you take into account that Infamous was an early rushed launch window gamey while TLOU2 had a huge team, way more resources and time, and is a linear experience while Infamous is an open world game.

For an open world game, Infamous has great IQ, textures, draw distance and effects. While I agree that TLOU2 looks better, taking into account the above mentioned factors, the "gain" isn't significant for me. It's not like Naughty Dog unlocked a second GPU. Their animations, experience and art design are top notch though. Therefore hard to really compare these games.

It's more a matter of production quality.
 
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Md Ray

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Can you show me what reflection looks better in MM than PC with Ultra settings at 4k in WD:L? Can we actually examine just the reflection itself and what it represents? Since we are looking at arbitrary scene data, subjective opinion is useless since are only seeing props, NPCs, etc..

Don't just say "it looks better to me and that's that." You guys do realize you troll people who say a different game is better looking than YOUR game right?

MY FACT!


GAVE THIS TROLL MEME
An "industry professional" calls other industry professionals hard work "COMPLETE GARBAGE" when it's actually not. In fact, both WD:L and SM's RT implementations look fantastic and extremely impressive.

Comments like that from you only make you appear bitter and spiteful. Since you claim to be an "industry professional" then maybe try to be respectful to the work of other professionals, even if they're developing for the camp you really hate so much. Thanks.
 

TLZ

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There implementation isn't of an opinion variety. That's what you guys don't understand. It's simply NOT better.

I also wish you would stop comparing the PC's lower end hardware to the consoles. The PC comparision should be made with a top end GPU that utilizes the entire 3d feature set for the game. Ultra settings will blow away any of the Spiderman MM looks.
The comparison should be made with PCs of the same price bracket. At the end of the day, a person wanting to buy a console for $500, who's also curiously interested in building a PC, would want to know what the same amount would get him. We can't go comparing $500 consoles with $1500-$2000 graphics cards. Don't you guys always say that?
 
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VFXVeteran

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An "industry professional" calls other industry professionals hard work "COMPLETE GARBAGE" when it's actually not. In fact, both WD:L and SM's RT implementations look fantastic and extremely impressive.

Comments like that from you only make you appear bitter and spiteful. Since you claim to be an "industry professional" then maybe try to be respectful to the work of other professionals, even if they're developing for the camp you really hate so much. Thanks.

I will do as you ask if you first ask these guys to do the same.

Yer that 2060 does look a hell of a lot better than the xbox version.

Then again spiderman looks incredible so surely the xbox can improve it.

another reason is maybe Insomic games are just a tier above Ubisoft in that department.

Not wanting to through shade on Ubisoft but i don't rate them anywhere near the naughty dogs or sucker punches of this world, this is probably just that. A good studio, not a masterful one, or maybe i am being to harsh,

An unoptimized ubisoft game continues to be unoptimized.
shocker.

spiderman:Re and Miles Morales gives me no doubt that ray tracing looks just fine on consoles

I don't think anyone should be making any judgments about the capability of the hardware based on launch titles, especially ubisoft ones."
 
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VFXVeteran

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The comparison should be made with PCs of the same price bracket. At the end of the day, a person wanting to buy a console for $500, who's also curiously interested in building a PC, would want to know what the same amount would get him. We can't go comparing $500 consoles with $1500-$2000 graphics cards. Don't you guys always say that?

No they shouldn't because PS guys compare to the high-end PCs ALL THE TIME. You will always see that comparison and it will always be that the PC is somehow lacking no matter how powerful it is.
 

VFXVeteran

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And yet watchdogs looks worse as it reverts to cubemaps way too close from the player, I can see the shortcomings in regular gameplay all the time.

Looks worse on a PC@ Ultra settings? I'd love to see some screen comparisions. DF did an entire video reviewing WD:L and the reflections look way better.

1) Having reflections in reflections is superior. Period. There is no opinion in this. That's how the real world works
2) Evaluating transparencies and smoke, tree leaves being seen in the reflection is superior. Period. The more you cut out of the reflection the less convincing it is. MM cuts out too many details.
3) Evaluating specular highlights in the shaders in the reflection is superior. Period. Having a flat representation of the shader you are reflecting is very unconvincing as that's not how the shader looks when not seen in the reflection.
4) Much high resolution RT scene for reflections. More resolution = better visuals. Period.
5) Higher proxy geometry in reflections look more representative of what it's actually reflecting in the realworld. Crude low end polys to reflect because the console doesn't have the power to reflect at a finer detail level is a disadvantage. Period.

SO, where is the superior reflections in MM when it has all of these shortcuts?
 

Iamborghini

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You guys are talking about different stuff, VFXVeteran and others.

Everybody talks about the good implementation of ray tracing in MM but VFXVeterant keep saying it’s not the same quality as what we have in WD:L.

So what is the more important? The final look or the quality of it?

Game consoles are very cheap and have a fixed hardware, they can’t have unoptimized implementation of raytracing, they will need to sacrifice some aspects of it that is not too obvious for the eye. It’s called optimization.

Personally I think, the most important thing for the look of the game is talent. Without it you can’t have TLOU 2 on PS4. The talent to know what makes a game look good while taking into account the hardware we have.
 

McCheese

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Looks worse on a PC@ Ultra settings? I'd love to see some screen comparisions. DF did an entire video reviewing WD:L and the reflections look way better.

1) Having reflections in reflections is superior. Period. There is no opinion in this. That's how the real world works
2) Evaluating transparencies and smoke, tree leaves being seen in the reflection is superior. Period. The more you cut out of the reflection the less convincing it is. MM cuts out too many details.
3) Evaluating specular highlights in the shaders in the reflection is superior. Period. Having a flat representation of the shader you are reflecting is very unconvincing as that's not how the shader looks when not seen in the reflection.
4) Much high resolution RT scene for reflections. More resolution = better visuals. Period.
5) Higher proxy geometry in reflections look more representative of what it's actually reflecting in the realworld. Crude low end polys to reflect because the console doesn't have the power to reflect at a finer detail level is a disadvantage. Period.

SO, where is the superior reflections in MM when it has all of these shortcuts?

Spiderman is consistent, when looking up (or down) at a building every window and mirrored surface has a consistent ray traced reflection, it doesn't reflect all the minor details like debris, and it doesn't march into reflections (so no reflections of reflections etc) but it does have an extremely high cull distance meaning you can see the other side of the city reflected in them, there is no 'pop-in' within the reflections themselves .

Here is an example:


Watchdogs has better reflections upon close inspection but in actual gameplay most of the reflections on screen at any one time are either screen space or cubemaps, only surfaces very close to the player actually get proper raytraced reflections, and these reflections have a very short cull-distance.

Your argument is the part on the left that is ray-traced is better, as it reflects higher detailed models, includes debris, reflections of reflections and all that jazz. But my argument is when I'm walking around in the game I'm not noticing that, but I am noticing how the reflection suddenly turns to shit from one window to the next, which IMO is a bad trade-off.

Here is an example:

TLDR; Legion looks crappy in comparison, and you trying to compare 3090 RT reflections with a £350 console and struggling just shows how great a job Insomniac did.
 

Ascend

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Everybody talks about the good implementation of ray tracing in MM but VFXVeterant keep saying it’s not the same quality as what we have in WD:L.

So what is the more important? The final look or the quality of it?
Exactly... Sometimes people forget that the quality of a technique is a means to an end. That end is to make an overall image look as good as possible in the eye of the one experiencing the graphics.

If I can use an example, shadowing techniques with rasterization have gotten better and better and their resolution can be increased to the point that they can be razor sharp. But shadows don't work that way in real life. Real life shadows are generally soft and blurry. So in a way, a lower quality shadow can look closer to real life than an extremely high quality one.
For ray tracing, it can be similar. Some things can look more mirrored than they actually would be in real life with high resolution ray tracing. There is a balance between the resolution and the amount of bounces, and I don't think we are close to finding it yet for games.

The video of digital foundry has some great insights. Some things are not shown on the console version while they are on the PC version. The thing is, will you notice this while playing? Barely anyone would notice in a side by side comparison, let alone when simply playing the game. So ultimately, does it really matter...? And with mattering, I mean, is it bad enough on the consoles to ruin the experience significantly? If the answer is no, then the goal has still been achieved.
 

llien

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Besides "why do we need brute force RT please":


DF video, seriously? Why not wccf? Give me a break..

PS
:Oh, look, a DF moron can read a patent about RT and figure how cards performs, seems legit:

 
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Allandor

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This is just an optimization and experience thing. RT on AMD side is new. When the rtx 2060 was out, it was barely capable of RT in battlefield 5. Now it works fine, even with higher settings.
The rtx 2060s in on the level on the original rtx 2070, so after what we've seen, not bad for the first time with AMDs solution.


My son is still waiting for that minecraft path tracing patch. If this works, the and solution should work fine with future optimization.
 
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FALCON_KICK

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And you would be wrong and your comment comes off as arrogant and ignorant at the same time. Ubisoft has multiplatforms to think about when making their graphics engine A 1st party doesnt' have to worry about that. Ubi's graphics engine is more robust and definitely contains more tech in it.

Spiderman MM reflections are complete garbage compared to WD:L reflections. They don't look better by any strech of the imagination. Just by avoiding the original shader calls in MM should make you see the difference right there.

Ubi is huge dude. Just like all the other large studios that have way more money and resources because they have to support multiple platforms. It does NOT mean their graphics engine is automatically unoptimized just because its a 3rd party company.

I agree with you that 3rd party AAA game companies have the best tech for their engines but I don't understand why you are dissing the implementation of RT reflection for Miles Morales though?

Some of the best engines right now are Unreal Engine 5(not yet fully released), EA's Frostbite engine used for Battlefield/Anthem, Massive Entertainment Snowdrop engine, Rockstar GTA/RDR engine, Ubisoft's engine for Watch Dogs(Disrupt)/Assassin's Creed(Anvil)which have to implement all or most of the latest innovations in 3D graphics tech which become the showcase for the top of the line hardware refreshes from Nvidia/AMD. Also aren't most of the engines specialized to perform some subset of features better over the others?

Similarly Sony's First Party studios dont need to implement the support for all the middleware that is available on the market because they are not general purpose engines.

Right now on console space, Spider-Man: Miles Morales have set the benchmark for the best showcase of real time ray-tracing reflections.
 
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Remij

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Besides "why do we need brute force RT please":


DF video, seriously? Why not wccf? Give me a break..

PS
:Oh, look, a DF moron can read a patent about RT and figure how cards performs, seems legit:

You seem really mad that that "DF moron" knows more than you'll ever know. Keep living in denial though.. I'm sure AMDs special sauce and fine wine will make you feel better!
 
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Iamborghini

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VFX VETERAN KNOWS BETTER THAN US, SIMPLE HUMAN BEINGS! BOW DOWN!

Just kidding, but seriously, we all know we can push graphics even further without tricks with better configuration, BUT what matters most on consoles is optimisation! Which means, on the same hardware, a better optimized game will be better looking, that why the majority will see a "better" raytracing and overall better graphics on Miles Morales instead of Watch Dogs: Legion.
 
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Zug

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A 2060 super still costs 400€ here. That's without the whole computer around it. Also, Nvidia cards have dedicated hardware for Ray tracing.
If anything, AMD did a very good job on implementing software ray-tracing in it's APU for 500€ consoles.

Anyway, unless there are significant software evolution/optimization (à la DLSS), real ray tracing in video games is still at least a generation away. PC gamers/hardware enthousiasts might be able to have some real full scene raytracing in a few select games on their 3000€ rigs a few years before the masses.
And it's fine.

Consoles are just cheap media center PCs, yet people expect they will end the hunger in the world.
 

Knightime_X

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Let's be real.
Ray tracing isn't going to be viable for a while but we gotta start somewhere.
It might not give us what we're looking for at the moment but eventually it'll be a feature we'll take for granted like anti aliasing.
 

FireFly

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Which frame in the Unreal 5 demo demonstrates that?
Notice the lack of reflectivity in the water from 4:02.

"Also while Lumen is great on rougher reflective objects, we currently don’t support mirror reflections on smooth objects."


The only solutions I am aware of to solve this are planar reflections (only work on flat surfaces), hardware or software ray tracing, or SSR blended with ray tracing to handle the off screen reflections. If there was a cheap and accurate solution, it would be great, given the cost of ray tracing.
 
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GetemMa

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I can't wait to see the reactions on here when at mid point in the new gen developers start abandoning ray tracing to make their sub 4K games run at a stable framerate and revert back to letting their artists bake in the lighting and reflections.

These consoles are so full of weirdly placed priorities. RT shouldn't even be attempted with these GPUs. Just hit 60fps at the highest resolution you can and be done with it.
 

VFXVeteran

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Watchdogs has better reflections upon close inspection but in actual gameplay most of the reflections on screen at any one time are either screen space or cubemaps, only surfaces very close to the player actually get proper raytraced reflections, and these reflections have a very short cull-distance.

I don't see this in practice but I'll make a video of the reflections right now and post.

Your argument is the part on the left that is ray-traced is better, as it reflects higher detailed models, includes debris, reflections of reflections and all that jazz. But my argument is when I'm walking around in the game I'm not noticing that,

How can you not notice things that should be there in the first place? I"m saying that without those things, I'm noticing that it doesn't look right. Who's right? You are ignoring reality and I'm not.


TLDR; Legion looks crappy in comparison, and you trying to compare 3090 RT reflections with a £350 console and struggling just shows how great a job Insomniac did.

This has nothing to do with 3090 hardware. The 3090 just performs better than anything out right now and for this entire generation of consoles. I'm talking about the Ultra features that get exposed from the development team which if enabled fully, won't run on a console.
 

llien

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Notice the lack of reflectivity in the water from 4:02.

"Also while Lumen is great on rougher reflective objects, we currently don’t support mirror reflections on smooth objects."


The only solutions I am aware of to solve this are planar reflections (only work on flat surfaces), hardware or software ray tracing, or SSR blended with ray tracing to handle the off screen reflections. If there was a cheap and accurate solution, it would be great, given the cost of ray tracing.

Well, GoW had plenty of reflective surfaces, not sure which tricks out of your lists were used, if at all:

 

Armorian

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Well, GoW had plenty of reflective surfaces, not sure which tricks out of your lists were used, if at all:


The ugliest part of GOW graphics are horrible cube map reflections in some levels (Alfheim mostly), even PS2 and PS3 GOWs had some nice reflections (planar?)


RT would fix that shit.