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[Azurro]

Hey, despite you must be pissed off about it, it is worth reading a bit of back and forth with details for others in the thread and as future reference. I get why people may use ignore lists, but I would think it is best to let the discussion progress if you are willing to write lengthier pieces with your perspective on it too.

Yeah, it would actually be interesting to know from someone in MS or Sony how their backwards compatibility works from a software point of view.

I know in the case of the PS5, some of the PS4 functions were implemented in hw for bc, but from a software stack point of view, I'd love to know what kind of layers are between the original PS4/Xbox One game and the new console.

He, Phrixotrichus, offered no details or information to the conversation just claims of others being wrong about Xbox emulation(or more specifically that it wasn't emulation) and claiming others were spouting nonsense without pointing out how or in what way they were wrong or the correction information. Also while making unsubstantiated claims of being a software architect without backing that up with knowledgeable information. When I asked him to please elaborate or discussed how so or in what way or to provide details or information, he ignored the request and only proceeded to provide more insults.

I would have taken his claim of being a architect at face value if he would have provided some form of insight and info, in fact, it would have been appreciated, but alas....nothing of the kind.

I don't even care really if he made that up, along as he would provide useful info instead of just insults and generalized criticisms and claims without any elaboration as to why or how so. Saying that another is wrong without explanation other to say, you just are and I'm an expert does nothing for this conversation.

You are being pretty abrasive and stand off ish though, that doesn't lead to a good discussion. If he has a perspective, then I'd like to read it.

 

[Andodalf]

That is true, of course. If you like to play older games, it is great for you (as long as the reason is not the lack of good new games).But this is nothing special anymore, especially if you have a PC.

It's pretty special for consoles. I can't think of any console that had enhanced BC at launch, and Last gen had no BC at all.

 

[Neko Mimi Mode]

Accross all previous platforms?

Across OG Xbox, 360 and Xbox One, yes.

At present, MS have allowed ~500 games on the test models that reviewers have, they will expand this by another 500 at the weekend. By launch it will be almost all titles from Xbox history, Kinect titles excluded of course.

 

[semicool]

In case I'm not yet ignored by Phrixotrichus

Maybe someone can repost this for him.

I didn't think all this was needed or that it was commonly known.

I have information about how Xbox 360 BC worked on Xbox One and 1x family of systems. (NOTE a 1x is the same, more or less, hardware architecture on the 1x so the 1x wouldn't be "emulating" the Xbox One) from DF back from 2015:

Digital Foundry vs Xbox One backwards compatibility

When Microsoft announced that backwards compatibility would be hitting the Xbox One this year our collective jaws hit t…

www.eurogamer.net

If we then assume, assume the keyword here, that Xbox One emulation works in a SIMILAR(ie..MS continues to do so) fashion on the XSX/S then yeah they are still probably using virtual machines on Xbox systems to emulate games. I'm sure we'll find out soon enough or we can just assume that MS is doing what they did in the previous gen for BC:





From the article(notice my posts in this thread and the word in bold):

"When Microsoft announced that backwards compatibility would be hitting the Xbox One this year our collective jaws hit the floor. Even factoring out the effort involved in mapping the Xbox 360's GPU functions to entirely different Xbox One hardware, the idea of translating the 360's tri-core 3.2GHz PowerPC CPU to six low-power x86 Jaguar cores seems like a herculean task - yet somehow the engineering team has delivered. It's not perfect in several cases, but the fact that the virtualization works at all is a supremely impressive achievement.

Unlike the spotty backwards compatibility available on Xbox 360, which required a custom wrapper for each individual game, Microsoft has taken a more extensive approach through the use of a virtual machine that runs on the Xbox One as a game in and of itself. This virtual environment includes the Xbox 360 OS features, though they remain unavailable to the user, enabling the software to behave as if it is running on original hardware. The Xbox One then views this "Xbox 360" app as its own game allowing features such as screenshots and video sharing. The emulator supports both digital downloads and original DVDs, though discs simply act as a key, the core data downloading over the internet via Xbox Live.

As part of the preview program, backwards compatibility is still in development and currently only supports a small list of titles(Because it's software emulation). Of the games available, there are reports that only North American and region free discs currently function with Xbox One, regardless of the origins of the console (we used US discs for this piece). Furthermore, Microsoft is still working on a solution to enable support for multi-disc games - something that isn't currently working. While the majority of the initial titles are relatively basic and not much of a work-out for the VM, there are a few more demanding titles on tap including Mass Effect and Perfect Dark Zero. We sat down and put some time into several of these games, the idea being to stress-test the virtual machine's capabilities and to ascertain its strengths and weaknesses."

The article has WAY more references than this too....obviously just go to the link for more.

 

[BootsLoader]

So we will get next gen promises when the gen after releases.

 

[semicool]

You are being pretty abrasive and stand off ish though, that doesn't lead to a good discussion. If he has a perspective, then I'd like to read it.

That's all I was asking for , his information. Which he didn't provide other than insults and false(or so I claim) judgements of what I was actually sharing from the very beginning.

You're right that I acted defensive and childish, but it was in light of all that.....ie...he started it

I'm working on being less defensive. NOT the childish part though, I like it too much.

Now read through what I posted 2 posts, post #404(https://www.neogaf.com/threads/digi...ests-hugely-impressive.1568883/post-260408303), above as it provides the information, from Digital Foundry, I was already providing(without sourcing which I didn't think was needed), that he claimed was false(without details, info or elaboration). Which is why I became frustrated with him, the things he did say AND did not say, all things considered.

 

[Kylars Bluff]

So I am confused (which comes from being a Neo Member no doubt). Should I be “hugely impressed” by MS BC on XSX? I have one preordered. I also have a PS5 preordered. Should I also then expect to be “hugely impressed “ by Sony BC on PS5 whenever I have more DF info on it as well? What is the benchmark for being “hugely impressed “ in general? Please help. Thanks

 

[JimboJones]

So I am confused (which comes from being a Neo Member no doubt). Should I be “hugely impressed” by MS BC on XSX? I have one preordered. I also have a PS5 preordered. Should I also then expect to be “hugely impressed “ by Sony BC on PS5 whenever I have more DF info on it as well? What is the benchmark for being “hugely impressed “ in general? Please help. Thanks

The library or backcompat seems pretty extensive.
The improvements it brings to old games is really nice, outside of PC I don't think any console previously has allowed such improvement in backcompat modes.

If Sony matches this, sure I'd say be impressed.

 

[Gaelyon]

I'm very impressed by X-Box BC, it seems very neat and reliable. While BC usage usually fade away for most users past the first year it's still a nice feature for gen transition and keeping some beloved games available.

As for PS5, wasn't there some leak about compatibilty modes on the devkit ? like standard/pro mode or something ? And 100 most played games having an enhancement mode while 99% of the library BC ?

Anyway, the SSD speed will be a great bonus for loading/fast travelling/resume those games on both consoles.

 

[IfuckinghateReddit]

One 360 game and no OG Xbox games? What a fucking joke of a test. Just DF wanking over their own self-important opinions again.

 

[aygomyownroad]

One 360 game and no OG Xbox games? What a fucking joke of a test. Just DF wanking over their own self-important opinions again.

I await to see how many ps3 games will be tested on the PS5...

Oh wait...

 

[pyrocro]

Going with the PS5 but is nice to see this. I hope at least with the PS5 we get a nice BC with the PS4. I still have some PS4 games to play. Let's see how the S does in BC.

Who the fuck let the guy with reasonable ideas based on current information in here. Jeeez don't you know your suppose Hate this is a thing.

 

[Kylars Bluff]

The library or backcompat seems pretty extensive.
The improvements it brings to old games is really nice, outside of PC I don't think any console previously has allowed such improvement in backcompat modes.

If Sony matches this, sure I'd say be impressed.

Thanks. I really appreciate your insight. And I also like to feel what is truly and hugely impressive. Cheers

 

[pyrocro]

So I am confused (which comes from being a Neo Member no doubt). Should I be “hugely impressed” by MS BC on XSX? I have one preordered. I also have a PS5 preordered. Should I also then expect to be “hugely impressed “ by Sony BC on PS5 whenever I have more DF info on it as well? What is the benchmark for being “hugely impressed “ in general? Please help. Thanks

It depends on your interest.
If you're only going to play next-gen games its just a nice to have feature.
if you're got games you want to play that are made available via MS backward compatibility then yea be impressed.

from a software, project planning, and execution point of view, it is very impressive.

 

[INC]

Just watched it, very cool

 

[Kylars Bluff]

It depends on your interest.
If you only going to play next-gen games it just a nice to have feature.
if you got games you want to play that are made available via MS backward compatibility then yea be impressed.

from a software, project planning, and execution point of view, it is very impressive.

That was really what I was after was the technical and execution of MS BC on XSX. I’m a console gamer. I just want the best experience possible for whatever game I want to play, irregardless of the console. Nothing against PC, btw, I’m way to OCD to game on PC and try to keep up with the latest and greatest specs. Wish I was different.

 

[Rob_27]

Stunned they actually fixed GTA4. The difference is legitimately mind blowing.

It would be great if this could run at a higher res as well..? I can't remember if it does though.

 

[NeonGhost]

I wonder if the backwards compatibility team can improve the memory bandwidth or tap into the rdna2 features

 

[LarknThe4th]

Just watched the vid, it honestly looks amazing, a comprehensive improvement

 

[HerpDerpstreit]

One 360 game and no OG Xbox games? What a fucking joke of a test. Just DF wanking over their own self-important opinions again.

They state in the video that the games available to testing were limited, calling out OG Xbox specifically. They are using a database that Microsoft provided. There was no mention of what happens when you put an older generation disc in though. I'm not sure if they were limited on how much they can cover as they also state at the beginning that the NDA lifted for back compatibility but nothing else.

 

[aries_71]

Incredible.

Actually, pretty mild for Neogaf standards.

 

[IfuckinghateReddit]

I await to see how many ps3 games will be tested on the PS5...

Oh wait...

What does that have to do with DF videos being boring wankfests?

And you're right, we should be able to play PS3 games on PS5.

 

[Little Chicken]

What does that have to do with DF videos being boring wankfests?

And you're right, we should be able to play PS3 games on PS5.

Don't watch them then

 

[IfuckinghateReddit]

Don't watch them then

I only watched it because the title was misleading.

 

[intbal]

There was no mention of what happens when you put an older generation disc in though.

That other guy who got one for testing, Jeffrey Grubb, said in his Q&A that when he did that it showed the standard message that the BC feature has always shown: This disc is not compatible
And if I'm remembering correctly, he said he tried it with a game that is already compatible on Xbox One, so he surmised that Microsoft has only added a few games to the program thus far for testing purposes.

 

[Velius]

Every thread for the next two years:

 

[Mildudon]

Do you need patches on Steam when you upgrade your rig?
Given how the modern game development has gone largely multiplat and highly streamlined, performance boost flops by flops without any patch should be guaranteed.
I just feel Xbox's target sets too high and too ambitious at 4k 60fps with a dated hardware comparing what Nvidia is offering now, should have gone 1440p 60fps like the PS5 does with Demon Souls.

Yes you do need patches and you get patches they are called GPU drivers.

 

[Rob_27]

I would like to be able to play dead space in 4k. But I bet I won't be able to.

 

[cozomel]

'- 'It's confirmed that while back-compat gets 12TF of compute power, this is in compatibility mode - you *aren't* seeing the architectural improvements of RDNA 2, including its IPC boost. Rather you're seeing what a 12TF GCN-based console with Zen 2 would've looked like.'"

Yuck! While its interesting that you are not getting the full force of the sX and good to know what you actually are getting, its completely unimpressive that the sX cant hold a steady 60fps in most of these games. Disappointing and unimpressive.

 

[TeKtheSanE]

'- 'It's confirmed that while back-compat gets 12TF of compute power, this is in compatibility mode - you *aren't* seeing the architectural improvements of RDNA 2, including its IPC boost. Rather you're seeing what a 12TF GCN-based console with Zen 2 would've looked like.'"

Yuck! While its interesting that you are not getting the full force of the sX and good to know what you actually are getting, its completely unimpressive that the sX cant hold a steady 60fps in most of these games. Disappointing and unimpressive.

What games are you referring to?

 

[cozomel]

dude. You avatar is so wrong. The ps5 should be way bigger. Xbox series X is small compared to ps5.

The Ss and SX is huge too! So dont act like its small. At least the PS5 looks good unlike the Ss and sX which are the ugliest systems ever.

 

[TeKtheSanE]

The Ss and SX is huge too! So dont act like its small. At least the PS5 looks good unlike the Ss and sX which are the ugliest systems ever.

Nice troll.

 

[GloveSlap]

I would like to be able to play dead space in 4k. But I bet I won't be able to.

Me too. It feels like EA might be deliberately blocking that and others so they can charge for a remaster.

 

[Xaero Gravity]

The Ss and SX is huge too! So dont act like its small. At least the PS5 looks good unlike the Ss and sX which are the ugliest systems ever.

Trump loves the PS5 though

 

[Stiflers Mom]

The Ss and SX is huge too! So dont act like its small. At least the PS5 looks good unlike the Ss and sX which are the ugliest systems ever.

Serious question about your taste:

Is this you?

 

[Xaero Gravity]

Serious question about your taste:

Is this you?

I'm wet

 

[Deleted member 775630]

The Ss and SX is huge too! So dont act like its small. At least the PS5 looks good unlike the Ss and sX which are the ugliest systems ever.

PS5 is 4x as big as the Xbox Series S
PS5 is 1.5x as big as the Xbox Series X

The XSX might not be small, but definitely a lot smaller than the PS5. And the XSS is really small actually.

 

[Panajev2001a]

PS5 is 4x as big as the Xbox Series S
PS5 is 1.5x as big as the Xbox Series X

The XSX might not be small, but definitely a lot smaller than the PS5. And the XSS is really small actually.

I thought big was a brave and bold decision to ensure good airflow and low noise but suddenly for mysterious reasons yet again it seems that the ideal size is only the Xbox size... smaller than that == overheating and noisy, bigger than that == badly designed and ugly (still it is ugly, no doubt about it, but it is a weird race where two consoles are fighting between bland and ugly).

 

[Deleted member 775630]

I thought big was a brave and bold decision to ensure good airflow and low noise but suddenly for mysterious reasons yet again it seems that the ideal size is only the Xbox size... smaller than that == overheating and noisy, bigger than that == badly designed and ugly (still it is ugly, no doubt about it, but it is a weird race where two consoles are fighting between bland and ugly).

Xbox consoles since the One S and One X are just better designed than PS consoles. I never said the XSX was big, it's smaller than a PS3... Sony fans on the other hand were very quickly to call the XSX way too big.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Xbox consoles since the One S and One X are just better designed than PS consoles. I never said the XSX was big, it's smaller than a PS3... Sony fans on the other hand were very quickly to call the XSX way too big.

It depends, I personally think PS4 noise was overrated and I liked a more compact and beautiful console... you feel differently.

You define big as a pejorative clearly so yes you would not define XSX big. You would define it as the proper size of course. If people said it looked big and bland the answer was “looks do not matter, design it for heat dissipation and noise free cooling”... enter PS5 and looks now matter and the console is too big.

 

[Deleted member 775630]

It depends, I personally think PS4 noise was overrated and I liked a more compact and beautiful console... you feel differently.

You define big as a pejorative clearly so yes you would not define XSX big. You would define it as the proper size of course. If people said it looked big and bland the answer was “looks do not matter, design it for heat dissipation and noise free cooling”... enter PS5 and looks now matter and the console is too big.

I meant the Xbox One S, not the original Xbox One. It's ridiculous why it's so big when 1.5 years later they released something much smaller. I get why though. After the Xbox 360 RROD... They probably didn't want to take any chances. Noise I can't really say anything about, I never had a PS4.

I look at the PS5 and XSX in three ways:
1. Size/volume
2. Capabilities/power
3. Design

In all 3 the PS5 is just doing worse than the XSX. It's a much larger system, that is weaker (on paper), and has a very bold, futuristic (for me so fucking ugly) design.
The Xbox Series X is big when you compare the volume to other consoles, it's the most powerful console ever created (on paper), but importantly the design blends in. It doesn't stand out. And because it doesn't stand out, you don't see it as such a big console.