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Analysis Digital Foundry: PlayStation 5 and Series X tested on a CRT - a game-changer for image quality?

Mithos

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If only SED-TV had taken off/not died...

Copied from my post in this thread: https://www.neogaf.com/threads/digital-foundry-crt-and-motion-resolution.1502728/

Was a while ago SED was up and about... Some links (not necessary the best links available) IF you/or anyone else want to read about it.

 

Inviusx

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A fun experiment for sure but ultimately impractical. Anyone that tells me this is superior to playing on an OLED is either smoking crack or suffering from severe buyers remorse after dropping 5 grand on one of these 🤣
 
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Rudius

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He says that on a fixed pixel display the image looks good if you run at native resolution, or with a good reconstruction up to the native resolution. The PS4 already had most games running at 1080p native and PS5 games run well on 4K TVs with modern techniques. Even in the rare PS5 game with subpar image quality you would do better running it on a large high quality 1080p display, since down-sampling would clean up the image.

CRTs would make sense for the PS3 generation, when most games were 720 or below, with bad AA, and TVs were 768p or 1080p. They would also be good for the first years of the XBOX One, with all it's 900p games and no TAA.
 

Rudius

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So you’re saying we’re all bamboozled with this LCD, LED, flat screen technology. It was all a scam.
At the time, yes. LCDs looked bad and the hardware was often not powerful enough to run at native res. Now with much better flat panels, much bigger and lighter than CRTs, sold for good prices for the size and 400$ consoles capable of high resolutions it's not the case anymore.
 
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NeoIkaruGAF

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Curious replys in here.
Nobody told ya to get out there and find a top-of-the-line CRT. It's fun to try out these things just because you can, ya know.

(also, OLED motion sucks donkey balls)
 

RaZoR No1

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Costs.
With LCD you could reach big screens at way lower cost.

Yes it is possible to make a modern CRT decide but who wants that?
Cost makes sense.
Modern CRT would be perfect for Retro fans and maybe even esports? Retro fans pay so much for upscaling devices etc. a decent CRT TV would be a retrofans dream
jup that's why, weight size. 21 inch CRT was no joke, thing was heavy as fuck and big. Also CRT colors are dog shit. Flat screens came and nobody ever wanted them back.
Were the colors really that bad?
I mean the tech has advanced since the last bigger CRT releases.
With modern technic, shouldnt it be possiblr to build a more compact/ lightweight CRT?
 

Kenpachii

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Cost makes sense.
Modern CRT would be perfect for Retro fans and maybe even esports? Retro fans pay so much for upscaling devices etc. a decent CRT TV would be a retrofans dream

Were the colors really that bad?
I mean the tech has advanced since the last bigger CRT releases.
With modern technic, shouldnt it be possiblr to build a more compact/ lightweight CRT?
This is a good example.



That's what i remember the difference to be. It just looked way worse then a flatscreen. I had a big crt that was heavy as fuck at a premium price with 100+ hz at the time. I can't recall the name anymore. I actually threw it in the trash 4 years ago when i moved to my new house. As it fel and broke

Now there could be CRTs out there now that honestly after endless tuning could look at alot more better and close to LCD i guess. i wouldn't know. But that was the real reality of what u where moving into.

I bought a Flatscreen for like a grand when it came out no clue what it was nymore probably LCD from iylama or whatever, thing was the most expensive consumer one on the market at the time, and the colors / blacks / the detail was just amazing. It was so good u honestly couldn't go back anymore.

It did kill off fps games on PC tho, because u could simple not play shooters in any capable way on those lcd screens at the time, just imagine the worst motion blur u can imagine.

I am not going to lie, if they couldmake a CRT screen that's big, high resolution, high refresh rate and colors are equal towards modern monitors, i will buy one directly even if costs me 2 grand. CRT motion is just godly. PC gamers where playing in the future on that front back in the days.
 
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rofif

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Supposedly newer panels are better in that regard, but I'm obviously gun shy. for a premium product, I wasn't terribly happy with the set. A lot of the 2017 (including mine) had factory defects:


I'd definitely not do business with LG again and Sony (same panels) always seem to be behind on features that are important to me.
That was c7. Early days for oled.
Now presumably the tech is much better with cx and c1
 

Unknown?

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Just let them die already.

I tried the CRT thing for a while and it's really not worth it. Takes up a lot of space and very heavy for very very little difference in image quality for older stuff.

Just let go John. You're obsessing.
I bet no modern TV will last as long as those CRTs though...
 
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RaZoR No1

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I bet any modern TV will last as long as those CRTs though...
Most of the modern TVs cannot even survive the warranty time or brake right after the warranty.
(planned obsolescence)
No TV maker wants you to have a TV that lasts forever...
 

Unknown?

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Most of the modern TVs cannot even survive the warranty time or brake right after the warranty.
(planned obsolescence)
No TV maker wants you to have a TV that lasts forever...
Wrote that wrong, meant to say I bet none will last as long. There are still 70s CRTs out there working just fine!
 
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vpance

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He says that on a fixed pixel display the image looks good if you run at native resolution, or with a good reconstruction up to the native resolution. The PS4 already had most games running at 1080p native and PS5 games run well on 4K TVs with modern techniques. Even in the rare PS5 game with subpar image quality you would do better running it on a large high quality 1080p display, since down-sampling would clean up the image.

CRTs would make sense for the PS3 generation, when most games were 720 or below, with bad AA, and TVs were 768p or 1080p. They would also be good for the first years of the XBOX One, with all it's 900p games and no TAA.

With PS3 I was still gaming a bit on CRT sometimes. Still had better black levels and colors than my Kuro plasma.
 
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StateofMajora

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Yeah... definitely would not use a crt on the ps5 because you would just lose too much. Hdr, brightness, clarity. Some (and I mean a few) TVs have great upscaling so even that is not much of an issue anymore. Suggesting a crt for that use case is definitely hipster advice.

But I have been thinking about picking up an hd Wega for the Wii U/Xbox 360 lately. And the difference in using a crt for retro is still massive ; will never use a flat panel unless I have to.
 
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ethomaz

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Looks like an rgb connector isn't working or something.

It's probably just a crappy dongle. Signal quality is the far most important factor on CRTs and the difference between a $20 dongle and native VGA output with a quality RAMDAC is a bit like going from a cheapo LCD to an LG OLED.
I don’t know because I never converted console signal to VGA.

But I have an old LG FLATRON and an old Samsung Black (not sure if Studioworks) and neither gives that weird purple image with either direct VGA or HDMI-to-VGA conversor.

The image colors is similar to the right monitor in video… so I believe that video has something wrong happening.

Anyway my SNES, PS1, N64 and PS2 never looked that bad in CRT TVs.
 
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Hoddi

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I don’t know because I never converted console signal to VGA.

But I have an old LG FLATRON and an old Samsung Black (not sure if Studioworks) and neither gives that weird purple image with either direct VGA or HDMI-to-VGA conversor.

The image colors is similar to the right monitor in video… so I believe that video has something wrong happening.

Anyway my SNES, PS1, N64 and PS2 never looked that bad in CRT monitors.

I gave away my fairly high-end CRT when I upgraded my GPU back in 2016 because it no longer had a DVI port. I had been using a shoddy DVI>VGA dongle until then and had always thought the monitor was on its last legs.

I then plugged it into my motherboard VGA port one last time before the guy collected it and it was like night and day. And I mean it was crystal clear.

Biggest regret ever.
 

nkarafo

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A fun experiment for sure but ultimately impractical. Anyone that tells me this is superior to playing on an OLED is either smoking crack or suffering from severe buyers remorse after dropping 5 grand on one of these 🤣
The motion resolution/lack of ghosting/blur is enough for many people to consider CRTs better than any modern panel.

It really makes a huge difference to the picture while it's moving. And i know this because i was still using a PC CRT monitor until it died on me a couple of years ago. So i replaced it with a 240hz monitor and even at 240hz you are still getting some blurring and it's still worse than a CRT at 75hz. It was a downgrade but not as big as a 60hz LCD monitor. There are literally unusable to me. Complete junk, i wouldn't even accept one for free.

I also used to demonstrate to my friends the superiority of CRTs over LCDs, by showing how scrolling gets blurred in old games like Sonic on the Genesis/Mega Drive. And everyone, even the most casual observers, could notice the big difference in clarity.

There really is no comparison here, CRTs are clearly superior. Are they worth their weight/size though? That's debatable. I don't think i would trade my 240hz monitor with a brand new CRT one. But if it was this particular CRT, i would. Perfect motion clarity, no bad angles, great contrasts... You can't have all that with LCDs because you have to sacrifice one for the other. Like how my super fast 240hz monitor has a crappy TN panel so the viewing angles are shit.
 

jaysius

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Good to see DF back to hard hitting relevant content. This is pretty useless to almost everyone.

As worthless as this is, it's still infinitely better than all those trash "PS5/Series X PC equivalent spec" clickbait shit fests they made.

I think DF is done, but nobody had told John.
 

svbarnard

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John is a nutter. Lol I love him.
Y'all aren't getting the main point, the main point is CRT TVs had essentially zero motion blur while sample and hold displays i.e LCDs/OLEDs (yes that's right LCDs and OLEDs are what they call sample and hold displays) have a ton of motion blur like a lot of motion blur at sub 240 frames per second. You have to get up to 1,000 frames per second to eliminate motion blur on sample and hold displays i.e LCDs & OLEDs. If you guys watch the whole video he eventually talks about motion blur on CRT TVs. That was truly the key thing we lost when we switched to LCDs/OLEDs was great motion clarity. So the question is when are we going to be playing 1,000fps games on LCDs/OLEDs? Probably by the late 2030s technology is moving fast these days.

Look at this infographic, at low fps you can clearly see how bad motion blur is on sample and hold displays i.e LCDs/OLEDs. And as you can see at 240fps the motion clarity starts looking pretty good.

By the way this is the motion blur UFO test just go to ufotest.com make sure you're using the Chrome browser because it supports up to 240fps but of course in order to display 240fps your TV or monitor has to have a refresh rate of 240Hz. John Linneman in the video actually shows you what this UFO test looks like on an LCD and on a CRT, on the CRT there is no motion blur whatsoever as the UFO moves across the screen from left to right.

If you guys really want to get your cherries popped on this whole motion blur thing then read this article by blurbusters, I read this article a few years ago and it has changed the way I look at modern TVs!!!!! https://blurbusters.com/blur-buster...000hz-displays-with-blurfree-sample-and-hold/

So in short, LCDs and OLEDs have really bad motion blur at low frame rates and it can only be cured by higher and higher frame rates going all the way up to 1,000fps. Here's an easy way to see what I'm talking about, here just scroll up & down and notice that when the text moves it smudges, that's the inherent motion blur that LCDS/OLEDs have. When anything on the screen starts to move it will smudge, whereas on the old CRT TVs it was totally smooth no motion blur.

One final thing, we're actually going to need to go all the way up to 10,000fps because that's when the "mouse cursor stepping effect AKA phantom array effect" becomes imperceptible to the human eye. So yes there is a stroboscopic effect called The phantom array effect that doesn't go away till you hit 10,000 frames per second, 10,000fps will be needed to create future sci-fi holodecks where the human eye is completely fooled and believes it's looking at real life.

Another final thing, since most people can't get access to a CRT to see what a screen without motion blur looks like well guess what, do you have a VR headset? There is a motion blur reduction technique called "black frame insertion" and all VR headsets use this to eliminate motion blur. There is no motion blur in VR. They had to use black frame insertion to get rid of motion blur because in VR it becomes extremely noticeable and ruins the experience. Whereas on flat panel TVs it's not very noticeable, not till it's pointed out at least.
 

svbarnard

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Good to see DF back to hard hitting relevant content. This is pretty useless to almost everyone.

As worthless as this is, it's still infinitely better than all those trash "PS5/Series X PC equivalent spec" clickbait shit fests they made.

I think DF is done, but nobody had told Jo
Y'all aren't getting the main point, the main point is CRT TVs had essentially zero motion blur while sample and hold displays i.e LCDs/OLEDs (yes that's right LCDs and OLEDs are what they call sample and hold displays) have a ton of motion blur like a lot of motion blur at sub 240 frames per second. You have to get up to 1,000 frames per second to eliminate motion blur on sample and hold displays i.e LCDs & OLEDs. If you guys watch the whole video he eventually talks about motion blur on CRT TVs. That was truly the key thing we lost when we switched to LCDs/OLEDs was great motion clarity. So the question is when are we going to be playing 1,000fps games on LCDs/OLEDs? Probably by the late 2030s technology is moving fast these days.

Look at this infographic, at low fps you can clearly see how bad motion blur is on sample and hold displays i.e LCDs/OLEDs. And as you can see at 240fps the motion clarity starts looking pretty good.

By the way this is the motion blur UFO test just go to ufotest.com make sure you're using the Chrome browser because it supports up to 240fps but of course in order to display 240fps your TV or monitor has to have a refresh rate of 240Hz. John Linneman in the video actually shows you what this UFO test looks like on an LCD and on a CRT, on the CRT there is no motion blur whatsoever as the UFO moves across the screen from left to right.

If you guys really want to get your cherries popped on this whole motion blur thing then read this article by blurbusters, I read this article a few years ago and it has changed the way I look at modern TVs!!!!! https://blurbusters.com/blur-buster...000hz-displays-with-blurfree-sample-and-hold/

So in short, LCDs and OLEDs have really bad motion blur at low frame rates and it can only be cured by higher and higher frame rates going all the way up to 1,000fps. Here's an easy way to see what I'm talking about, here just scroll up & down and notice that when the text moves it smudges, that's the inherent motion blur that LCDS/OLEDs have. When anything on the screen starts to move it will smudge, whereas on the old CRT TVs it was totally smooth no motion blur.

One final thing, we're actually going to need to go all the way up to 10,000fps because that's when the "mouse cursor stepping effect AKA phantom array effect" becomes imperceptible to the human eye. So yes there is a stroboscopic effect called The phantom array effect that doesn't go away till you hit 10,000 frames per second, 10,000fps will be needed to create future sci-fi holodecks where the human eye is completely fooled and believes it's looking at real life.

Another final thing, since most people can't get access to a CRT to see what a screen without motion blur looks like well guess what, do you have a VR headset? There is a motion blur reduction technique called "black frame insertion" and all VR headsets use this to eliminate motion blur. There is no motion blur in VR. They had to use black frame insertion to get rid of motion blur because in VR it becomes extremely noticeable and ruins the experience. Whereas on flat panel TVs it's not very noticeable, not till it's pointed out at least.
 
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fart town usa

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My PS3 is hooked up to my Trinitron. Mine isn't nearly as nice as DF's though. It can only do 480i but I play the PS3 via S-Video. Some games look pretty rough but some look fantastic.

Recent games I've played that look great are SH: Homecoming, Singularity, and Dead Space 2.
 

Genx3

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I wish they had found ways to keep improving CRTs. They seem pretty great.

Also, makes me want to hold on to my plasma for a bit more.
CRT's not only emit X-Ray radiation but they also use a lot of electricity. Hell even the dust that sticks to a CRT TV is radio active.
All smart TV's or anything with WIFI also emit EMF radiation which is not as harmful as X-Rays but is also harmful.

TV's emit radiation
 
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Rival

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I still kick myself for getting rid of my 27” Sony crt that I used back in the day. Would fit nicely in the corner of my game room today for the retro consoles. But I’ll stick with my CX for modern consoles.
 
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I jumped off the OLED bandwagon due to imagine retention.



Less than two years of use. I know the newer panels are supposed to have improved but it's just too expensive to risk it again.

My KURO lasted 10 years (still works). Plasma has it's own drawback (power hungry), image retention (never had a problem with mine though) and buzzing at altitude.
My Panasonic plasma (model before they stopped making them) had far worse image retention and burn in than my OLED B6 ever had. I still game on the OLED constantly.

Don't get me wrong I know burn in is a thing. I had a minor case of it on my Samsung Galaxy S8. Still isn't enough a deterrent when you look at how much better OLEDs look compared to LCDs. LCDs look like dogshit in comparison.

As for Carts, I LOVE that DF is doing this. I do wish we had some side by side comparisons, instead if just looking at the strengths of CRT tech. Still great content though.
 

anthraticus

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Digital Foundry are retarded console fanboys that shill every new piece of hardware.

DF retro isn't bad tho.
 

Bo_Hazem

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Salalah, Oman

rofif

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I can honestly say for first time ever since crt, I am satisfied with a monitor and it's 48" lg C1 oled.
I have lg crt flatron 120hz which I still take out for retro games but OLED finally surpassed it with HDR, colors and contrast. Motion is also finally fantastic even without bfi.
 
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bender

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My Panasonic plasma (model before they stopped making them) had far worse image retention and burn in than my OLED B6 ever had. I still game on the OLED constantly.

Don't get me wrong I know burn in is a thing. I had a minor case of it on my Samsung Galaxy S8. Still isn't enough a deterrent when you look at how much better OLEDs look compared to LCDs. LCDs look like dogshit in comparison.

As for Carts, I LOVE that DF is doing this. I do wish we had some side by side comparisons, instead if just looking at the strengths of CRT tech. Still great content though.

Image retention was a concern with Plasma for sure. I spent $5K on my KURO which seemed crazy at the time. I never babied the set either, especially in the later years. Temporary image retention as thing but those test patterns always cleared them up and I did run those regularly. I might still use it today if one of the controller boards didn't create an obnoxious buzzing (drowns out even the buzz of Plasma and I live at altitude). I got a great deal on my E7 (just over $2k at the time). OLED is beautiful but it had way too many issues (defective panel out of the gate and then burn it). Having to replace the television in under 2 years was a bummer and makes me naturally skeptical of OLED and certainly of LG.
 

Son_of_Zardoz

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Ages ago (about 11-12 years) I found this badass mofo on CL for $150. This is just an image I found of that model. Guy was upgrading and just wanted to get rid of it, was in near perfect condition with remote, manuals, etc. Had to drive a couple of hours and it weighed an ungodly amount (getting it up a flight of stairs was awful) but it was soooooo good. I was going to hold onto it forever but unfortunately when moving 5 years later it fell off dolly, landed diagonal and the stand broke, tv landed face down on concrete. Such a sad ending for such a great set. My Xbox 360 looked amazing on it, still remember mind being blown by Halo 4's graphics on it. Picture quality and motion was outstanding and the built in speakers were damn good too (although it spent most of its time connected to surround system). RIP

 
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grfunkulus

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This is the problem with DF. Not once he points how horrible the color reproduction is compared to modern panels. The reason we need higher brightness is because certain shades of a color are only visible to the human eye at a certain luminescence level not for just making things brighter. Also LG CX is a decent OLED but it has horrible color science. If anyone here is looking to buy an OLED I will suggest get SONY. If you got the money get A90J but you will have to wait for VRR. The CX produces cooler tones comparatively and deviates from the creator's intentions significantly. If not an OLED then Q90A.
Kinda depends what your budget and preferences are. CX comes in a smaller size, has lower input lag, offers VRR on all 4 hdmis out of the box, and, most importantly is SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper (especially if you have a microcenter around).

Also, some people really don't care too much about director's intent while gaming. Or, at least, depending on the game. In a narrative game, maybe. But I play Destiny 2 primarily and having the ability to play with amped up colors in Sports picture preset while still having low input lag on PC mode is valuable to me (turns off most crappy 'enhancements' but keeps the picture POP vs game mode)

The Sony has some issues with color banding on 120hz HDR as well but it seems content dependent. Both are great tvs and the Sony is undoubtedly a more professional, premium unit if you're after that and have the $$$. But for most of us just looking to enjoy some games with instant response time that mimics the great crts of yesterday while keeping modern benefits, LG has been making great oleds for years
 

sunnysideup

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Burn in on plasma and oled seems to behave differently.

I have a last gen panny plasma as the family tv, and an c9 oled for my gaming set up.

Plasma gets image retention really easily. It will take a couple of hours to get ghosting in an high contrast area like some black and white channel logo or a gaming hud. But it is easily removed with screen wash. I have gotten image retention hundreds of times and has cleaned it out every time, with no visible trace. There are no visible burn in or uneven ageing on my plasma. And if there where ill just clean the screen, kinda like etch a sketch.

But real burn in feels like its more prone on plasma. And it could happen pretty quick. If you watch a channel with a strong black and white logo for a couple of days. Id say chances are pretty high your tv will have permanent burn in.

On my oled. I have never seen any image retention. But with oled it seems like you can get some general uneven ageing of the screen. And it does not matter if you change the channel or not, you have already used up that brightness for that part of the tv.

My take is Plasma has true burn in, and it can happen really quick. But you can control it by not watching the same shit all the time. With oled its more sneaky. It happens slower. Even if you take care of it, you might get burn in.
 

NeoIkaruGAF

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Burn in on plasma and oled seems to behave differently.

I have a last gen panny plasma as the family tv, and an c9 oled for my gaming set up.

Plasma gets image retention really easily. It will take a couple of hours to get ghosting in an high contrast area like some black and white channel logo or a gaming hud. But it is easily removed with screen wash. I have gotten image retention hundreds of times and has cleaned it out every time, with no visible trace. There are no visible burn in or uneven ageing on my plasma. And if there where ill just clean the screen, kinda like etch a sketch.

But real burn in feels like its more prone on plasma. And it could happen pretty quick. If you watch a channel with a strong black and white logo for a couple of days. Id say chances are pretty high your tv will have permanent burn in.

On my oled. I have never seen any image retention. But with oled it seems like you can get some general uneven ageing of the screen. And it does not matter if you change the channel or not, you have already used up that brightness for that part of the tv.

My take is Plasma has true burn in, and it can happen really quick. But you can control it by not watching the same shit all the time. With oled its more sneaky. It happens slower. Even if you take care of it, you might get burn in.
I spent 14 years with plasma TVs. Image retention happened, easily. But I never got true, irreversible burn-in, and I played a LOT of games on those TVs.

Just figure this - the first plasma I had was gifted to us during the 2006 FIFA World Cup. For a good couple of weeks that mofo was mainly running the channel that aired the football matches. When the WC was over, the channel’s logo was clearly imprinted on the screen. And yet, after a few weeks (yep, admittedly, it took that long), the logo disappeared completely. I played games on that TV for 6 years, and never got a burned-in HUD or anything. Same with my next TV, which I used for 8 years and while it had tremendous image retention (displaying static white lines on it just after turning it on would get the lines “burned” on the screen for a few minutes), it never got anything burned in.

Anyway. Say what you will about CRT screens and their flaws, it’s probably all true. But so is the fact that their motion was leagues ahead of any flat screen we have today. 60fps 2D games are visibly jittery on a OLED screen, ffs. And the giant screens we have today only make it worse.
 
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sunnysideup

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Yeah i dont think you get burn in on plasma if you are not a tard,. And image retention works like a warning to change channel and clean the screen.

yep crt is much much better in motion. Remember when i fired up my pvm for the first time seeing the bullets in turrican 2 100% crisp flying across the screen. It was an eye-opener.
 
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If only SED-TV had taken off/not died...

Copied from my post in this thread: https://www.neogaf.com/threads/digital-foundry-crt-and-motion-resolution.1502728/

Was a while ago SED was up and about... Some links (not necessary the best links available) IF you/or anyone else want to read about it.

THIS is what I was trying to remember. Holy shit this seemed like the perfect marriage of technologies.