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Digital Foundry Direct: Weekly #60: Halo S2 Fixes, Square Enix IP Sale, Tink4K and John's BFI Tips

adamsapple

Gold Member

This week, Oliver makes his DF Direct debut alongside familiar faces John and Alex. They discuss the news that Square Enix has sold its Western IPs and studios, including Tomb Raider and Deus Ex, Halo Infinite's Season 2 fixes and the early development of the TINK4K. Plus: does the Steam Deck suffer from high input lag? And most importantly, what's Oliver's superhero-style origin story?
 

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
Interesting.

They say multiple devs have told them that the Series S is a bit of a pain.

Memory constraints.
A lot of us were saying this day 0, and several devs prior to launch.
But some people want to,
Doja Cat What GIF by Apple Music
 

DarkMage619

Member
I’m almost convinced you’d need to be getting paid to be championing and white knighting a 4tf console in 2020. I just can’t think of any other rational conclusion. Unless clinical lunacy is an excuse.
What are actual XSS customers saying? People that actually own and use the console seem to like it. The best way to complain is with your wallet and not buy one.
 

dcmk7

Banned
A lot of us were saying this day 0, and several devs prior to launch.
But some people want to,
Doja Cat What GIF by Apple Music
It's a little bit weird Microsoft didn't take some of the concerns of the developers and studios on board at the planning stage.

ID Software would have been a good one to listen too. Now we are having developers optimising games for a console that is hindering their progress due to memory constraints. Hardly ideal.
 

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
It's a little bit weird Microsoft didn't take some of the concerns of the developers and studios on board at the planning stage.

ID Software would have been a good one to listen too. Now we are having developers optimising games for a console that is hindering their progress due to memory constraints. Hardly ideal.
MS be like, "Complain about it will you? Well, now we will buy you and you really have to optimize for it. Take that!"

Probably.
 

Riky

My little VRR pleasure pearl goes vrrrooommm.
They say the memory constraints is mostly in the Ray tracing sense, which is a bit of a waste on the larger consoles as AMD hardware so far just doesn't measure up.
I'd be happy if when developers decide what cutbacks to make on Series S that RT is the first to go like Doom Eternal, I'd much rather have that 120fps which has more impact on gameplay.
 

sircaw

Banned
They say the memory constraints is mostly in the Ray tracing sense, which is a bit of a waste on the larger consoles as AMD hardware so far just doesn't measure up.
I'd be happy if when developers decide what cutbacks to make on Series S that RT is the first to go like Doom Eternal, I'd much rather have that 120fps which has more impact on gameplay.
for the general public, ie people not on these forums, what do you think they would prefer, 120 fps+ cutbacks or 60 fps will full eye-candy?
 

Riky

My little VRR pleasure pearl goes vrrrooommm.
for the general public, ie people not on these forums, what do you think they would prefer, 120 fps+ cutbacks or 60 fps will full eye-candy?

If they want 60fps with full eye candy they should get a Series X.
I would think the people who buy Series S aren't overly interested in RT.
 

adamsapple

Gold Member
I think folks are forgetting that the Steam Deck is the weakest denominator that's supposed to have the widest support for modern developed games.

If devs can optimize for that, Series S will be a cinch, and it's not like we haven't seen games cut RT from the Series S version if needed.
 
I think folks are forgetting that the Steam Deck is the weakest denominator that's supposed to have the widest support for modern developed games.

If devs can optimize for that, Series S will be a cinch, and it's not like we haven't seen games cut RT from the Series S version if needed.
Seems the main complaint here is that devs need to spend additional ressources on optimizing for Series S, but since we're talking about multiplatform games here, those devs have to optimize for a bunch of PC specs (including Steam Deck) anyway. That's why the massive concern from some people around Series S optimization looks a bit weird.
 

adamsapple

Gold Member
Meanwhile, the Series X fans are super concerned if a PS5 game has a PS4 version, but they're totally fine with every Series X being tied to the Series S for the next decade.

PS4 to PS5 is a generational and architectural level difference.

Series S to Series X is the same generation and infrastructure with just a difference in specs.

You're comparing apples to chimpanzees here.

Also, PlayStation fans are equally, maybe more, opposed to cross gen games on GAF. I shouldn't have to point out individual user names.
 

sircaw

Banned
If they want 60fps with full eye candy they should get a Series X.
I would think the people who buy Series S aren't overly interested in RT.
This is all very confusing to me, as it sounds like they targeting the wrong audience with the wrong gaming options.

120 fps sounds like it should be aimed at a more hardcore group of people, having it on the series s to me sounds rather redundant.

The series x, being so much more powerful, is in essence the hardcore gaming system, 120 fps sounds perfect for it. I would imagine the cutbacks would be minimal.

The series s is the mom-and-pop option that buy jimmy a cheap console for Xmas.

Old Woman Yes GIF


Does she really need a 120 fps. "lollipop_disappointed:
 
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Riky

My little VRR pleasure pearl goes vrrrooommm.
This is all very confusing to me, as it sounds like they targeting the wrong audience with the wrong gaming options.

120 fps sounds like it should be aimed at a more hardcore group of people, having it on the series s to me sounds rather redundant.

The series x, being so much more powerful, is in essence the hardcore gaming system, 120 fps sounds perfect for it. I would imagine the cutbacks would be minimal.

The series s is the mom-and-pop option that buy jimmy a cheap console for Xmas.

Old Woman Yes GIF


Does she really need a 120 fps. "lollipop_disappointed:

No need to be confused, 120fps point was about me personally, I didn't say that's what anyone else would want.
Once we move to UE5 and next gen games I doubt 120fps is going to be an option anyway.
My point was related to Doom Eternal, I would personally rather play at 120fps than have RT, I make that choice on my Series X as well.
Casual gamers wouldn't notice RT shadows and reflections over traditional methods anyway.
 
Casual gamers wouldn't notice RT shadows and reflections over traditional methods anyway.
Why wouldn't they and you would? Do serious gamers pause their games to see if there are reflections in puddles?

Do casual gamers have different vision?
 

Riky

My little VRR pleasure pearl goes vrrrooommm.
Why wouldn't they and you would? Do serious gamers pause their games to see if there are reflections in puddles?

Do casual gamers have different vision?

I would recognise RT reflections in puddles as they would be maintained at any angle, I doubt casual gamers would notice.
 

Chukhopops

Member
This is all very confusing to me, as it sounds like they targeting the wrong audience with the wrong gaming options.

120 fps sounds like it should be aimed at a more hardcore group of people, having it on the series s to me sounds rather redundant.

The series x, being so much more powerful, is in essence the hardcore gaming system, 120 fps sounds perfect for it. I would imagine the cutbacks would be minimal.

The series s is the mom-and-pop option that buy jimmy a cheap console for Xmas.

Old Woman Yes GIF


Does she really need a 120 fps. "lollipop_disappointed:
If you’re talking about Halo Infinite 120 fps mode then it makes sense… for MP modes where you don’t care about graphics (in fact, you’d run most MP PC games at the lowest settings to reduce particles and other distracting effects). For SP I agree it makes no sense to offer it on XSS.
 

ChiefDada

Member
Could you list the games that were held back by Series S memory constraints during development? You must have several examples in mind :pie_thinking:

They say the memory constraints is mostly in the Ray tracing sense, which is a bit of a waste on the larger consoles as AMD hardware so far just doesn't measure up.


For business relationship purposes, most developers will not outwardly mention how or why one particular hardware kit limits their game design. We can all appreciate this. But to suggest a game couldn't possibly be limited when one of the three target platforms has ~40% less memory capacity than the other two is crazy. And the limitations resulting from that delta is much more far reaching than ray tracing.

Btw, none of this takes away from the fact that the Series S is a successful product for Microsoft. It's just that game developers and $billion companies often have divergent objectives.
 

ChiefDada

Member
Wake up babe new Series S debate thread popped up

Lol, fair. I will do my part to help shift thread conversation away from this exhausted topic by saying I would hate to see forza motorsport take GT7 path with a cross gen release. I understand semiconductor issue but that doesn't mean I won't complain about it dammit
 

DJ12

Member
I’m almost convinced you’d need to be getting paid to be championing and white knighting a 4tf console in 2020. I just can’t think of any other rational conclusion. Unless clinical lunacy is an excuse.
The same people saying series s is worthwhile for gamers are the same ones that said "9.8 tfs" wouldn't be enough to complete with the most powerful console xbox ever made
 

Darsxx82

Member
343 has fixed frame pacing in cutscenes in Halo Infinite along with other details...
Maybe it's time to decide to finish the campaign because that problem bothered me a lot and reduced my desire to continue.
 

Hendrick's

Member
Interesting.

They say multiple devs have told them that the Series S is a bit of a pain.

Memory constraints.

A lot of us were saying this day 0, and several devs prior to launch.
But some people want to,
Doja Cat What GIF by Apple Music

I’m almost convinced you’d need to be getting paid to be championing and white knighting a 4tf console in 2020. I just can’t think of any other rational conclusion. Unless clinical lunacy is an excuse.
Why do you all even care? How does this affect you? It's clear that the S was a super smart business move and has not negatively impacted anyone who does not want to own one.
 

kyliethicc

Member
Any more than releasing on most PC's or a steamdeck?
There’s no forced min spec for any PC release. Free to raise/lower per game, over time.

While the S lowers min spec for the entire gen, on every multi plat game. 10 GB of RAM is 10 GB. Forever.

No it doesn't. What evidence do you have to back up this nonsensical claim?
 
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Riky

My little VRR pleasure pearl goes vrrrooommm.
Any more than releasing on most PC's or a steamdeck?

Spot on.

Third parties have to also target where the majority of PC owners are, which looking at the Steam survey is a 1060 with 4 CPU cores.
So we're going to be fine for a while yet.
 

reksveks

Member
There’s no forced min spec for any PC release. Free to raise/lower per game, over time.

While the S lowers min spec for the entire gen, on every multi plat game. 10 GB of RAM is 10 GB. Forever.
But most devs/publishers set it at majority of PC/valve users because it makes sense commercially. The only time the series s becomes an issue is when most gaming PC move beyond it.

At the moment, it ain't an issue.
 

kyliethicc

Member
But most devs/publishers set it at majority of PC/valve users because it makes sense commercially. The only time the series s becomes an issue is when most gaming PC move beyond it.

At the moment, it ain't an issue.
Yet interestingly, multiple devs have expressed frustration with it. Including the lead programmer at iD Software.
 

FrankWza

Member
That's not clear nor true. Every X game has to keep in mind the limitations of S.
Yup. They came out and said every game available on x will be on s. They’ll be tied to it until this generation ends or they decide to discontinue which they won’t do.

Speaking of which, using next generation is a term that no longer applies unless we’re only talking about timeframe. It used to be a way to shorthand graphics benchmarks or abilities but it’s clear that it shouldn’t be used to describe a consoles ability or power. There are 2 consoles that are nearly identical and then there is another that has many limitations in comparison. Since there is no precedent for this situation it can lead to issues when things are discussed going forward
 

reksveks

Member
Yet interestingly, multiple devs have expressed frustration with it. Including the lead programmer at iD Software.
You also did read how much ram he wanted from next gen consoles?

Software devs always want more hardware power for a very obvious reason.

I am off to play Citizen Sleeper cause we as a forum have had this conversation before.
 
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Riky

My little VRR pleasure pearl goes vrrrooommm.
They then went on to release a 120fps version of Doom Eternal, not possible last gen.
Maybe when they got hands on they changed their views.
 
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