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Analysis Retro Digital foundry: CRT and motion resolution

TLZ

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Oct 20, 2015
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Oled typically doesn't get as bright as a good lcd either. Micro led is what will save us all. Infinite contrast like oled, bright like led, and no burn in or image retention risk.
Well how bright do we want a screen to be? I have my oled brightness on 50 during the day, and 0 during the night, and sometimes even at 0 I wish it could go dimmer. There's that 50 to 100 that I never touched even.

That was what SED would have been.
What's that? Never heard of it before. And why did it not happen?

The autism is painful.
?
 

Fafalada

Fafracer forever
Jun 22, 2004
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I doubt we could return to CRT era, because sample and hold dislays have some benefits. So, I see the only way to combine all good thing together - use flickerfree SaH screen with BFI apportunity.
Low-persistence OLEDs and LCDs exist, and the results are much better than BFI hacks. For the moment limited to VR HMDs and occasional phone - but it's unlikely there's anything inherently size-restricting about it.
Obviously anything 'not' sample&hold will reduce brightness and runs counter to the HDR pursuits(which obviously goes for CRTs as well) so it's hard to say if market at large will have any interest in it. Then again I never imagined we'd be getting variable-refresh TVs so who knows what will happen.
 
S

SLoWMoTIoN

Unconfirmed Member
I'm so close to buying the LG OLED 55" yet burn in scares me. Mainly using it for gaming on PS4/Xbox One and Switch. Am I crazy thinking this? Or is it all just being blown out of proportion...?
OLED tech never truly evolved, new tech is currently being made to replace it. If you REALLY need to buy a tv however do it. Otherwise wait.
 

Mithos

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What's that? Never heard of it before. And why did it not happen?

Was a while ago SED was up and about... Some links (not necessary the best links available) IF you/or anyone else want to read about it.

 
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nkarafo

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I used to have a CRT monitor until about a year ago.

I enjoyed browsing the internet with it because i could read any text while smoothly scrolling at the same time. With an LCD panel i have to stop the scrolling in order to read because the text is blurry otherwise.

A 240hz LCD panel fixed this issue (almost). Even at 120hz this issue is still there. At 240hz the effect i want is pretty close to a CRT but there's still a bit of ghosting left when there is a stark contrast between the text and background.

But for all this to work, the content must run at 240fps. 60fps games will still look blurry on a 240hz screen.
 
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Poordevil

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I was an early adopter for LCD display. Bought into the hype about how great of a display they were. They were terrible back in the early 2000's. I gave my 50 inch Sony LCD HDTV away to a relative and I returned an LCD PC monitor to Best Buy about 3 days after I bought it. That was it for me. I swore off LCDs and went back to CRT. The ones I had were nothing special, but still better than LCD. I went on the AVS forum and that is where I really learned about CRT displays. Those guys told me about looking into Sony CRT HDTVs and monitors. Here in Seattle Craigslist was a great place to pick them up for pennies on the dollar. Peeps were dropping them like a bad habit. I don't remember the model number but I found the largest CRT 4:3 HDTV Sony made for like $200. Hung on to that until I came across a Sony xbr910 which has the Super Fine Pitch 16:9 tube. What a great console display for the Dreamcast, PS2, PS3 and Xbox! As far as PC, peeps were abandoning their CRT monitors like crazy too. I had a Viewsonic Professional Series 19 inch 4:3 that was given to me. Beautiful monitor. Finally, I picked the holy grail of CRT monitors off Craigslist, the Sony FW900. Don't remember what I gave for it, maybe $400.

Both my PC monitors have since died. They were old displays with a ton of hours on them. Nothing lasts forever. The xbr910 HDTV is still alive and with me, but I replaced it with a 49 inch Sony X900E. I tell you this much, once I plugged in my PS4 into the X900E there was no going back. The 910 has better contrast, but I can't think of anything else where it comes out on top. Brightness, resolution and image detail, screen size, there is no contest. Colors are just a deep and lush on the X900E and I have no complaints about motion blur. As a CRT hold out and someone who really appreciated the CRTdisplay, I would never go back. The modern stuff is just too good, and it keeps improving every year.
 

Orenji Neko

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The beginning of the video was a serious nostalgia hit: I had a Sony FW900 back in the day along with an IBM P260 and suffice to say, I fucking loved those things. I recall that when I had them both set up, I ended up also having to invest in a much larger, much thicker, and painfully expensive executive-style desk because the one I had before was great, but the combined weight of those two monitors was too much for the one I was using. At any rate, those monitors served me very well and it was worth the money.
 

Kittehkraken

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My PS3 is currently hooked up to a CRT. Works great for PS1 games over S-Video.

I'd buy a new CRT in a heartbeat if didn't cost $1000.
 
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carsar

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Low-persistence OLEDs and LCDs exist, and the results are much better than BFI hacks.
I onky know about 480hz LCD and it can't handle even 960 pixe/sec without blur....

With BFI you can easilly read the test on highest speed 3000-3840 pixel/sec, So BFI is 5-10 times better then 480hz
 

Kittehkraken

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PS3 can't deliver CRT feeling, because tou need stable fps=hz with vsync and motion blur should be turned off.

Using a CRT for PS1 games instead of something more modern cuts down on the input lag and offers superior image quality. Gran Turismo 1 and 2 were unplayable (imo) on anything but my CRT because of the pixelated image quality and input lag. Its a night and day difference on a Slim PS3.
 
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cireza

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I used to have a CRT monitor until about a year ago.

I enjoyed browsing the internet with it because i could read any text while smoothly scrolling at the same time. With an LCD panel i have to stop the scrolling in order to read because the text is blurry otherwise.

A 240hz LCD panel fixed this issue (almost). Even at 120hz this issue is still there. At 240hz the effect i want is pretty close to a CRT but there's still a bit of ghosting left when there is a stark contrast between the text and background.

But for all this to work, the content must run at 240fps. 60fps games will still look blurry on a 240hz screen.
You can disable smoothing for the scrolling in your browser options. Impossible to browse the web without this option disabled, as far as I am concerned.
 
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Ellis

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As practical, and awesome as new TV's are, I honestly don't believe they can do anything better than a decent CRT, outside of the much higher resolutions.
Colours, black levels, contrast, and latency are still superior on a CRT.
 
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Fafalada

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I onky know about 480hz LCD and it can't handle even 960 pixe/sec without blur....
Low-persistence panels emulate CRT behavior - they keep the pixels lit for a small % of frame (IIRC it was like 2-3ms or somewhere in that range @ 90hz), without explicitly changing refresh rates.
The approach basically eliminates motion-persistence issue, and it's the only way to make VR usable (regular OLED/LCD panels are perceptually a lot more awful inside an HMD than any of the tests would suggest).
 

nkarafo

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You can disable smoothing for the scrolling in your browser options. Impossible to browse the web without this option disabled, as far as I am concerned.
No way. I loved smooth motion on my 85hz CRT. It just sucks on regular 60hz LCDs. At 240hz it's almost as good again.

I read pretty fast and i'm used to read while the screen is slowly moving to the next parts. Basically, i do the same thing you do on the Smartphone.
 

kingbean

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I've got a Sony pvm but I wish it could do higher than 480i.

I play all my retro up to wii games on it.
 

carsar

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Low-persistence panels emulate CRT behavior - they keep the pixels lit for a small % of frame (IIRC it was like 2-3ms or somewhere in that range @ 90hz), without explicitly changing refresh rates.
The approach basically eliminates motion-persistence issue, and it's the only way to make VR usable (regular OLED/LCD panels are perceptually a lot more awful inside an HMD than any of the tests would suggest).
You are right. BFI is another story. I hope we'll see 4k BFI 90hz+ native TVs.
 

AnotherOne

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I'm so close to buying the LG OLED 55" yet burn in scares me. Mainly using it for gaming on PS4/Xbox One and Switch. Am I crazy thinking this? Or is it all just being blown out of proportion...?

Been gaming on oled since 2013 no burn in, same with my brother and he has no issues.
 

Oner

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<---- Rolls a tear as I type this. The day my 22" Sony Trinitron Monitor died back in '07/'08 iirc was the last day I played CS 1.6 competitively (well for "funtime" maps that is). I just couldn't make the transition to a (pretty good for the time) LCD and I still miss it :messenger_pensive:. Hell to this day it just doesn't feel right when I try to get back in to it....it's just not the same.
 
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pawel86ck

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I still have CRT monitor in the basement and compared to my LCD it's night and day difference when it comes to colors, contrast, black levels. The only downside is sharpness (fine details arnt as clear as on LCD screen), but using sweetfx EdgeEnhancement filters helps. I hope we will see OLED monitors in the near future, because on current LCD monitors picture quality is far from good.

And BTW- it's strange, but on CRT jagged lines arnt as bad even without AA, with high resolution picture is very clean already, and with MSAAx2 it's totally perfrct.
 
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Dural

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Sep 18, 2006
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I have an RCA Proscan 36" CRT HDTV that I use for retro gaming. It has a VGA input that can go up to 800x600, I use the VGA adapter with the DC and it looks unbelievable on it. Never thought about hooking a modern system up to it, might have to give it a try.
 

93xfan

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Feb 23, 2013
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I moved on from CRT a long time ago and am glad to not have to deal with the geometry warping issue and color bleeding issues that happened after a few years of use.

CRT i can understand for old games, but beyond that, it’s time to let them go.
 

ruvikx

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Jan 12, 2018
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I wonder why no one mentions Panasonic‘s Plasma TVs? They have a motion resolution of 1080 lines and flicker is not as noticeable compared to an OLED with BFI.

I feel that is a much better solution than going back to CRTs...

I game on one of those, i.e. mine is ten years old now but the picture quality (colors especially) means I've never felt the need to upgrade to a higher resolution 4k more modern TV. It's solid as a rock as well (no signs of breaking down at all despite the fact I've done most of last gen on it & almost all of this current gen as well).
 
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Allandor

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Well, I really can't believe that. Yes, CRT has not that big problem with different light-levels, but it was just not sharp. I still remember when I bought my first 1280*1024 LCD/TFT Screen and the difference was really big. The image was sharp instead of beeing so … "CRTish". Even though it was still a VGA cable that was connected to the screen. I did not have a bad CRT at that time, but the LCD was better in almost all demands.
Well maybe the sub-native resolution was an issue, yes. But everything else was better on the new screen.
I really don't want back to those big, fat energy-hungry CRTs.

edit:
btw, my CRT could also deliver 1600x1200 at that time (but only at 75Hz which was to low for a CRT; 85Hz was the minimum to see a CRT not flickering).
 
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Alexios

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I mean, he's mostly discussing quality and (relatively) high res CRT PC monitors of little/no curvature, not comparing some 240p/480p TV to a 4K LCD. My last CRT was something like a 20" 1600x1200 iirc. Plenty sharp (if technically a tad blurrier than an equal flat panel perhaps).
 
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Jan 29, 2019
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A high-end 16:9 CRT model with digital inputs (DVI?) could be a sight to behold.
Yes, there was one in the locals craigs list for like 50$ (Canadian mind you) a couple of weeks back... unfortunately I could not arrange for a pick up at the time so I didn't go for it (and I wasn't so sure where I would end up putting it). Now I live in regret :messenger_loudly_crying:
Well, I really can't believe that. Yes, CRT has not that big problem with different light-levels, but it was just not sharp. I still remember when I bought my first 1280*1024 LCD/TFT Screen and the difference was really big.
LCDs upside:
LCDs are great for their low power consumption, low space requirements and extremely sharp static image (if you have a proper digital connection.

LCD Downsides:
- Input lag
- Blurry on moving objects
- Uneven backlights on most screens
- Color reproduction can be worse than on a good Trinitron tube (If I recall correctly, Sony professional monitors were kept around for a long time in places, like the movie industry, where color calibration was very important).

I'd say that for most computer uses the modern LCDs (IPS, OLED) are over all better, but strictly for gaming I'm curious to get the PS4 or PC plugged on a 16:9 CRT - playing with zero input lag just feels so much better, and in gaming the bluryness may just be an over all benefit.

EDIT: When I talk of CRts here I actually mean Trinitron type CRTs, regular TVs/monitors were just too horrible compared to Trinitron.
 
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rofif

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I would buy 16:9 25 to 27" crt if they started producing those in a hearbeat. I will reinforce my desk to hold 50kg no problem
 
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Darak

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Yes, there was one in the locals craigs list for like 50$ (Canadian mind you) a couple of weeks back... unfortunately I could not arrange for a pick up at the time so I didn't go for it (and I wasn't so sure where I would end up putting it). Now I live in regret

After some research, it looks like HDTV CRTs were, unfortunately, pretty bad. Looks like they include crappy, fame-based digital converters for the HDMI inputs, complete with input lag and horrible scaling issues. Ouch.
 
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Holammer

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If the CRT revival continues like this, I bet some old-timer engineer at Samsung is flipping his desk right right now. I seem to recall them being reluctant to drop development back in the days.
 
Jan 29, 2019
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After some research, it looks like HDTV CRTs were, unfortunately, pretty bad. Looks like they include crappy, fame-based digital converters for the HDMI inputs, complete with input lag and horrible scaling issues. Ouch.
Actually I remember that some of them actually had visible scan lines (like you would see that there was two distinct passes on moving images).... That was annoying as hell for videogames.
 

dave_d

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After some research, it looks like HDTV CRTs were, unfortunately, pretty bad. Looks like they include crappy, fame-based digital converters for the HDMI inputs, complete with input lag and horrible scaling issues. Ouch.

Wasn't that a problem back with the PS3 and HD CRT TV's? I thought I remember some of them only did 1080i and some PS3 games were 1080p and would drop to 480p since the TV didn't support it.(I remember at the time a friend of mine who bought all the latest gear was pissed his PS3 played in low res on his HD CRT TV.)
 

kingwingin

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Just thinking about crt's makes my head hurt from that high pitch whine they made. LCD is good for me
 

BlueAlpaca

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Just thinking about crt's makes my head hurt from that high pitch whine they made. LCD is good for me

I started hearing that whine in my twenties. It drove me insane. Came with a hissing/gurgling sound in my ears and back of head. I would walk through a store's TV section and it would come and go depending on how far I am from the CRTs.
 

Pantz

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I would be curious to know what ended up being the best of the best of the best CRT.

Tried searching around out of curiosity but didn't really find much.
 

Mithos

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A high-end 16:9 CRT model with digital inputs (DVI?) could be a sight to behold.

My €400-500 CRT TV had HDMI input (Philips 32PW9551, HD-CRT (2007)), and could display 720p, or extremely close to it (tech reviews at the time "argued" about if it was displaying 720p or 704p on screen), it could handle 720p and 1080i on the HDMI input.
 
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dave_d

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My €400-500 CRT TV had HDMI input (Philips 32PW9551, HD-CRT (2007)), and could display 720p, or extremely close to it (tech reviews at the time "argued" about if it was displaying 720p or 704p on screen), it could handle 720p and 1080i on the HDMI input.

Wow, if I knew something like that existed I might have bought the 28" version instead of the KDL-26S3000 back in 2007. I looked up the manual, it even had dvi.