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Analysis Retro Digital foundry: CRT and motion resolution

carsar

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The video is quite interesting and proves that clear motion without any blur can give WOW-effect comparable or even more impressive than hdr or static 4k.

And I'm wondering to explain this phenomen.
As I understand, in real world our eyes can see in two ways:
Smooth pursuit and saccadic eye movements.
If we want to pursuit moving object or we want to focusing while moving our head - we use Smooth pursuit.
If we look at static objects or we don't want to pursuit objects -we use saccadic eye movements.

The second part is how eyes can see image on the displays.
Saccadic eye movements heven't problems at all.
But pursuit moving objects is different story.
Just imagine If you have in your hands gun and you need to shoot plates. You are trying to pursuit the plate and predict its trajectory. But what would happens if the plate has periodic freezing? You can't stop/start your pursuit with 1 sec period. No, you will try to ignore the plate's stuttering and will pursuit the target with smooth iron sight's moving.
The same works with our eyes. Eyes outpace the moving picture on the screen(which looks static for a few millisecond 16ms 60hz, 8ms 120hz e.t.c.) and this picture become outrange of the moving fovea centralis. So the motion blur you see on LCD display is just because this image can't be in the fovea centralis all of time.

So, let's return to our LCDs and try to understand why we are so tollerate to motion blur.
I guess we just get used to avoid our smooth pursuit while using LCD, and media-industry tries to hide this problem too.
In movies, specialists make even more motion blur to hide 24p juddering. In console games we have a lot of screen motion blur to avoied 30fps juddering. And motion blur is very comfortable for LCD manufactures, because can hide bad response times(bad means 1ms BtW and more).
CRT, BFI, PLASMA would be useless in this case:

And mostly important - we can get tired of smooth pursuit. Just try to pursuit UFO from www.testufo.com for a 10-20 minutes, and tell me your feeling after that.

Some people can't to get used to motion blur and they still want to pursuit objects on the screen, they hope 120/240hz LCD could help. But it can't. Just remember simple rule for sample and hold - you can avoid blur, if you move object pixel/sec equal or less of your real HZ. If you use 120hz monitor , motion equals to static quality only at 120pix/sec. So, you need to move cursor from one side of screen to another in 16 secs to avoid any motion blur with 1080p screen. If you use 4k 60hz Sample and hold screen - you need to move cursor from the left to the right about 64 seconds to avoid ANY blur ).
If you start to move objects at 180pix/sec on 120hz screen -you can notice slightly visible quality degradation which is depends on how optimal is your viewing distance.
You can check it
120pix/sec
180 pix/sec
difference is barely visible, but your motion resolution become lower even at that slow speed.
At higher speeds(480 pix/sec and more) blur just would be more obvious.

That's all I want to say about LCD sample and hold problems and why we live with that. I doubt we could return to CRT era, because sample and hold dislays have some benefits. So, I see the only way to combine all good thing together - use flickerfree SaH screen with BFI apportunity. BFi is not perfect, but it really can to get rid of motion blur, even at high speed.
In my case, KS8500 can show static=motion even at 2880pix/sec and 3840pix/sec(hard to pursuit). The feeling of crisper clear 4K image in static and clear 4k in motion is just jawdroppng.
It has some downsides, 60hz flickers a lot(so in future we need 85hz+ 4k panels ). You need to decrease backlight for more clear image. Frame rate should be extremely stable with vsync, ingame motion blur must be turned off, and gamepad is the best choice for fast and stable panoramic motions.

Share you own experience with LCD/plasma/ulmb/bfi monitors and which maximal motion resolution you have according to testufo.com .
 
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cireza

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Will watch this later, but this is a topic I have been particularly aware of since the move LCD. I have a CRT at home and use it on a weekly basis, so motion blur on LCD is a nightmare for me. No other choice but to deal with it...

People only discovering this today is kind of disappointing. How many years have some of us been suffering ? 10 ? 15 ?

Please somebody do something about this. Yes, you, there, who are running whatever TV brand : do something about motion blur NOW. YOU can do it.
 
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dDoc

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Problem is CRT high refresh monitors are very hard/expensive to find nowadays. Would also need to juggle some other stuff to make these monitors compatible with recent consoles/grfx cards.
OLED would be the solution however has a risk of burn in, especially for gamers.
LCD has no burn in issue but pic quality suffers.
Guess will buy a new tv next year, which tech to for I wonder...
 

carsar

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Xbox 4/PS5: Buy a... CRT TV?
Would be hard to find 4k hdr dci-p3 1000 nit CRT TV) And 4k LCD with good BFi implementation is hard to find. We are living in time of compromises.
hdmi 2.1 could solve the problem of native 100-120hz with 4K TVs and BFI would be much better on 4K screen.
OLED would be the solution however has a risk of burn in, especially for gamers.
OLED has motion problems too. And BFI implementation even worse then LCD.
 
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mckmas8808

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Would be hard to find 4k hdr dci-p3 1000 nit CRT TV) And 4k LCD with good BFi implementation is hard to find. We are living in time of compromises.
hdmi 2.1 could solve the problem of native 100-120hz with 4K TVs and BFI would be much better on 4K screen.

OLED has motion problems too. And BFI implementation even worse then LCD.

What's the difference between HDMI 2.1 native 120hz and the 120hz that we have right now on 4K TVs?
 
Jul 30, 2009
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Yes, CRT motion resolution and versatility is still unmatched.

But I doubt anyone would ditch an OLED for a bulky, small ass crt. Even if I want one badly just for messing up with it.

New LG oled panels will have g-sync support. That's the best we can get right now.

And a 55" one is going right next to my g-sync lcd on my desk as soon as they are available.
 
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carsar

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What's the difference between HDMI 2.1 native 120hz and the 120hz that we have right now on 4K TVs?
hdmi 2.0 lacks of bandwidth for 4k 444 120hz.
NVIDIA and TV manufactures made 4k 60hz 420 support along time ago , I don't know why they can do same thing and allow 100hz 4k BFI without aggressive flickering
 
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#Phonepunk#

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yes! i praise the look of CRTs every chance i get. there is something magical about the medium. we are missing a lot of cool stuff with our flat screen and high res. we will never go back but there are a lot of CRTs out there in the world just waiting to be repurposed.
 

DunDunDunpachi

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I wrote a long- winded blog post about saccades and their impact on shmup play last year.


CRTs are illuminating phosphor groups every "frame" hundreds of times by rastering, so it looks like a smooth fade into every new image instead of a frame-by-frame rendering on a digital panel.

And since this is performed right-to-left (or top to bottom when the screen is Tate) I do wonder if it has an ever so slight effect on older scrolling games since they often push the action from the right (or from the top).

I'm also of the belief that smaller screens are better, since you don't have to reorient your eyes to a new target as frequently.
 

dDoc

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OLED has motion problems too. And BFI implementation even worse then LCD.

Whats the best tv tech to look forward to in 2020 that you are aware of? MicroLED is still far away afaik. OLED has burn in risk and motion problems as well. Is any LED version worthy? eg what hisense is doing etc
 

carsar

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Whats the best tv tech to look forward to in 2020 that you are aware of? MicroLED is still far away afaik. OLED has burn in risk and motion problems as well. Is any LED version worthy? eg what hisense is doing etc
LCD or OLED just needs native 85-120hz BFI to flicker not so agressive. At now, 60hz BFI with VA TVs can handle easilly 0.25-1ms mprt to avoid motion blur even at highest speeds.
I don't believe we acan return LCD or plasma era, so the BFI is the only way to watch clear picture
 

dDoc

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Excuse my ignorance but cant figure what BFI is?
Also hoping that VRR helps out on the next wave of tvs..
 
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Tygeezy

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Problem is CRT high refresh monitors are very hard/expensive to find nowadays. Would also need to juggle some other stuff to make these monitors compatible with recent consoles/grfx cards.
OLED would be the solution however has a risk of burn in, especially for gamers.
LCD has no burn in issue but pic quality suffers.
Guess will buy a new tv next year, which tech to for I wonder...
Oled typically doesn't get as bright as a good lcd either. Micro led is what will save us all. Infinite contrast like oled, bright like led, and no burn in or image retention risk.
 

cireza

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Excuse my ignorance but cant figure what BFI is?
Also hoping that VRR helps out on the next wave of tvs..
BFI means Black Frame Insertion, it is a way to mimic the way CRT display the picture (even if it is still different).

VRR will help reduce stuttering but won't do anything about motion blur.
 

carsar

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Excuse my ignorance but cant figure what BFI is?
Also hoping that VRR helps out on the next wave of tvs..
Do you understand whu we see motion blur on sample and hold(flickerless) displays?
because we rotate our fovea centralis faster then image updates. And most of time we see objects with our perafovea or perifovea.

BFI is black frame insertion. So, most of time it shows black(no information) image, so perafovea or perifovea don't see anything.
that's why we see only inage from central fovea, which is crisper clear.
Same with CRT.
 
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carsar

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I've forgot to say something.
We have no good tests of TVs motion resolution. Rtings has some test, but it is n't representive at all.
1. Their test pattern is 1080p video at 960pix/sec. So it can't show all motion details we can lose at native 4k and 1920pix/sec speeds.

2. Rtings tests BFI at maximum brightness, which makes BFi less effective.
 
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dDoc

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Oled typically doesn't get as bright as a good lcd either. Micro led is what will save us all. Infinite contrast like oled, bright like led, and no burn in or image retention risk.

Unfortunately from what I read MicroLED is like a decade or so away, and will initially be expensive I presume. Whats the best to go for about now/2020 from the info we have?
 

Rolling_Start

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Bitterly regret throwing out my CRTs. I kept several for years, then storage requirements and pretending I was grown up made me abandon them one by one.

A Trinitron CRT @120hz for 640 x 480. Oh god. The majesty. The slick-as-fuck ghosting free rapture.

Now all I have is an old faithful plasma I'm afraid to use heavily incase it burns in, and shitstain LCDs.
 

nikolino840

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LCD or OLED just needs native 85-120hz BFI to flicker not so agressive. At now, 60hz BFI with VA TVs can handle easilly 0.25-1ms mprt to avoid motion blur even at highest speeds.
I don't believe we acan return LCD or plasma era, so the BFI is the only way to watch clear picture
I have bfi in my TV....i have to turn on?
 

AnotherOne

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Unfortunately from what I read MicroLED is like a decade or so away, and will initially be expensive I presume. Whats the best to go for about now/2020 from the info we have?
Oled really. Fastest response times and best PQ.
 

Spukc

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yeah no ty
imma stick with oled.

crt is fun for sprite based 240p games tho
 

carsar

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Panasonic fz950 55"

I don't know if the model number Is the same in other countries......
I guess it has same BFi implementation with lg oleds.
So, it can only 60hz and blur reducing is not as good as LCD BFI,
You can try it yourself:
start with 120 and go higher.
 
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nikolino840

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I guess it has same BFi implementation with lg oleds.
So, it can only 60hz and blur reducing is not as good as LCD BFI,
You can try it yourself:
start with 120 and go higher.
Yeah i could try thankyou

Yes, Panasonic use lg panels for their TV
 

Trojita

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Those already exist. :lollipop_grinning:
LG mentioned they indeed are working on black frame insertion technologies, that said, it is not currently (at this time) combined simultaneously with 120Hz. The bonus benefit of 120Hz is that it greatly reduces the flicker of BFI compared to simple 60Hz BFI.

That's the one I was waiting for but the LG oled released this year don't have it :(
 
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DunDunDunpachi

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There's nothing inherently wrong or inferior with modern displays, it's just that manufacturers put little to no investment into low-latency design (not to be confused with fast pixel response). There was an early 4:3 Pioneer plasma with an excellent built-in scaler that is discussed with revered tones among some retro circles (I honestly don't recall the model). But input latency is harder to show off at the local Best Buy...
 

carsar

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120 Hz for 120 fps.
Is it 1440p @ 120 Hz ?
If so, how does it look? What is the motion resolution, where static =motion?
Can you set native 60/85/100hz? How it looks compared to 120hz?
Which mode has highest motion resolution?
 

Ulysses 31

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Is it 1440p @ 120 Hz ?
If so, how does it look? What is the motion resolution, where static =motion?
Can you set native 60/85/100hz? How it looks compared to 120hz?
Which mode has highest motion resolution?
It can do 4K at 120 Hz. So far only Xbox One supports 120 Hz only at 1440p but I use 4K 60 Hz.
Don't think you can set Hz, it's either 60 or 120 Hz depending on if you enable motion interpolation or use it as a PC monitor.

You can read all about the Q900R(I use the newer Q950R) here.
 
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Larsowitz

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I wonder why no one mentions Panasonic‘s Plasma TVs? They have a motion resolution of 1080 lines and flicker is not as noticeable compared to an OLED with BFI.

I feel that is a much better solution than going back to CRTs...
 
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MacReady13

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Oled really. Fastest response times and best PQ.

I'm so close to buying the LG OLED 55" yet burn in scares me. Mainly using it for gaming on PS4/Xbox One and Switch. Am I crazy thinking this? Or is it all just being blown out of proportion...?
 

Darak

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I've played a few modern games on a CRT (I have a CRT-based retro PC and sometimes I connect my main PC just for fun). Motion is much better than anything else and you can get a very good picture with much lower resolution. Not only every resolution is 'native', in a CRT pixels are somewhat fuzzy by nature, instead of brick blocks, so any resolution where pixels are visible to your eye will just feel better.

I still wouldn't use a CRT regularly, though. Productivity is terrible due to high resolutions being blurry and you'll miss the real state of a bigger screen. That being said, some of the CRT's limitations are due to the nature of the VGA signal, and I'm also using a crappy and small old PC monitor... A high-end 16:9 CRT model with digital inputs (DVI?) could be a sight to behold.

The technology was abandoned way too soon.