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Opinion Difficulty vs Accessibility: A responsibility for the developers, not for the players.

Soodanim

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I don't know what you're getting worked up about - that's just a distillation of everything I've been saying.

How COULD I think the omission of difficulty settings was automatically reasonable if I've been arguing against that over 10+ posts?

A developer should ultimately make anything they want. But personally I think a total refusal to offer any sort of concession to worse players is unnecessarily purist in this day and age.

I've suggested a couple of ways common objections to easy modes could be overcome. I think they are reasonable, good faith compromises. I suspect that any residual objection is really more about a slightly toxic elitism, or at least a weird obsession with the purity of hard games, than an actual genuine concern for creative vision.
Come on mate, you can't call people cunts then accuse others of getting worked up.
 
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MajinSweet4

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I don't know what you're getting worked up about - that's just a distillation of everything I've been saying.

How COULD I think the omission of difficulty settings was automatically reasonable if I've been arguing against that over 10+ posts?

A developer should ultimately make anything they want. But personally I think a total refusal to offer any sort of concession to worse players is unnecessarily purist in this day and age.

I've suggested a couple of ways common objections to easy modes could be overcome. I think they are reasonable, good faith compromises. I suspect that any residual objection is really more about a slightly toxic elitism, or at least a weird obsession with the purity of hard games, than an actual genuine concern for creative vision.
I'm not worked up, I'm flabbergasted by the pure insanity of it. Let's really put this in perspective. 99.9% of games give you what you want. I mentioned a solution to even have 100% of games give you what you want, a solution you seemingly don't want. But that's not enough. All games, every developer must make games with your specific demands. And yet, everyone else is obsessive. Everyone else is toxic. Only games have this bizarre desire of conformity. Nobody who likes Hollywood movies is like "Wait, why are these indie films so weird? I don't understand them, from now on all movies must follow certain rules." Or "What is with all these weird sub cultures of music? Everything should be like Pop music." A small segment of developers do things a little different, they have an audience that likes a more obscure flavor. That's a good thing. It makes the industry inclusive. You are being the would be gate-keeper. Not the other way around.
 

ethomaz

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Come on mate, you can't call people cunts then accuse others of getting worked up.
He basically has no arguments so start to throw offenses… I mean what his point at all? lol

He wants the games to be like he wants and everything else is cunt, worked up, circular, etc etc etc.

It is like there is no other people with different tastes and opinions in his world lol
 
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Kev Kev

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But you are playing something else. Because you suck at whatever game is too hard for you then crying on a gaming forum board because they are too hard.

I suck at
Souldbourne
FPS/TPS
Battle Royals


Whatever. I'll never get gud. I'll probably never beat a Souls game. But they're fucking cool and I love them and own them all.

I'm pretty good at CRGPs and RPGs and turn based games.
Souls and blood borne I’ll never even try, that sound like zero fun to me

doom 1, 2, 64, and doom 2016 are phenomenal games that I’ve enjoyed for many hours, and they weren’t overly difficult to get through.

doom eternal, on the other hand, was so difficult I couldn’t get through it in the easiest mode. I died constantly, was overwhelmed every second of the game, and I hated it. Even if I gave it more time and forced myself to finish it I wasn’t having fun.

my point is this Uber difficulty shit is bleeding it’s way into games that were never Uber difficult. It’s one thing to know a series in difficult (like a from software game) and just avoid them, but doom eternal was a massive departure in difficulty compared to its predecessors. This difficulty obsession shit is bleeding into other series. And to that I say: fucking bullshit.

Keep you’re try hard difficulty shit out of games I love. Or at least make a fucking easy mode for the love of god, it’s not taking anything away from the try hard fuck stick crowd.

and fuck off with saying I’m “crying” and all that, I’m aloud to have an opinion. You watering it down to just saying I’m “crying” is simplifying the argument prematurely, instead of engaging in a well thought out reply.
 

Irobot82

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Souls and blood borne I’ll never even try, that sound like zero fun to me

doom 1, 2, 64, and doom 2016 are phenomenal games that I’ve enjoyed for many hours, and they weren’t overly difficult to get through.

doom eternal, on the other hand, was so difficult I couldn’t get through it in the easiest mode. I died constantly, was overwhelmed every second of the game, and I hated it. Even if I gave it more time and forced myself to finish it I wasn’t having fun.

my point is this Uber difficulty shit is bleeding it’s way into games that were never Uber difficult. It’s one thing to know a series in difficult (like a from software game) and just avoid them, but doom eternal was a massive departure in difficulty compared to its predecessors. This difficulty obsession shit is bleeding into other series. And to that I say: fucking bullshit.

Keep you’re try hard difficulty shit out of games I love. Or at least make a fucking easy mode for the love of god, it’s not taking anything away from the try hard fuck stick crowd.

and fuck off with saying I’m “crying” and all that, I’m aloud to have an opinion. You watering it down to just saying I’m “crying” is simplifying the argument prematurely, instead of engaging in a well thought out reply.
I haven't played Doom Eternal so I can't really comment on it's difficulty. I've only heard people either love it or hate it. Wasn't it basically a Red/Green/Blue type game. You kill enemies in 1 of 3 days to replenish one of three stats ammo/health/shields?

I haven't found games in generally getting harder. Only seen games getting easier and lazier. Quest Icons, Maps, Highlighting routes for you, etc.

Souls Games and the like are to me the same as the old Mega Man games (which I was great at, but I had to die 1000 times to memorize it). Where everything is in the same place every time, nothing changes you just need to learn the routines. It's a die/practice type game.
 
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More a responsibility of the platform holders, tbh. Just add save state and autosave features for games at the OS level so the devs can design the pure experience as they want and the choice is on the player if they want to use the shortcuts to make it easier on themselves. Platform holders could also do some of the other accessibility options at the OS level, too.
 

ethomaz

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I haven't played Doom Eternal so I can't really comment on it's difficulty. I've only heard people either love it or hate it. Wasn't it basically a Red/Green/Blue type game. You kill enemies in 1 of 3 days to replenish one of three stats ammo/health/shields?

I haven't found games in generally getting harder. Only seen games getting easier and lazier. Quest Icons, Maps, Highlighting routes for you, etc.

Souls Games and the like are to me the same as the old Mega Man games (which I was great at, but I had to die 1000 times to memorize it). Where everything is in the same place every time, nothing changes you just need to learn the routines. It's a die/practice type game.
Today games has too much tips, assists icons, etc to my tastes…. It is not subtle like it used to be.

The sense of adventure and discovery really fall off with these new mechanics… remember how it was great to find find where to go or resolve a puzzle in Zelda: LttP.

But I’m not creating threads to says what devs needs to do :D

More a responsibility of the platform holders, tbh. Just add save state and autosave features for games at the OS level so the devs can design the pure experience as they want and the choice is on the player if they want to use the shortcuts to make it easier on themselves. Platform holders could also do some of the other accessibility options at the OS level, too.
I’m already not a fan of auto saves and checkpoints… imagine save states 😱
 
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Hunnybun

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I'm not worked up, I'm flabbergasted by the pure insanity of it. Let's really put this in perspective. 99.9% of games give you what you want. I mentioned a solution to even have 100% of games give you what you want, a solution you seemingly don't want. But that's not enough. All games, every developer must make games with your specific demands. And yet, everyone else is obsessive. Everyone else is toxic. Only games have this bizarre desire of conformity. Nobody who likes Hollywood movies is like "Wait, why are these indie films so weird? I don't understand them, from now on all movies must follow certain rules." Or "What is with all these weird sub cultures of music? Everything should be like Pop music." A small segment of developers do things a little different, they have an audience that likes a more obscure flavor. That's a good thing. It makes the industry inclusive. You are being the would be gate-keeper. Not the other way around.

How about you ACTUALLY address the suggestions I made and tell me why they're unreasonable, rather than just talk obvious bs like I'm demanding all games be tailored for me.

Btw, is the solution you refer to buying a $2k PC just to play a $70 game? If so, that's fucking laughable.
 
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Soodanim

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Souls and blood borne I’ll never even try, that sound like zero fun to me

doom 1, 2, 64, and doom 2016 are phenomenal games that I’ve enjoyed for many hours, and they weren’t overly difficult to get through.

doom eternal, on the other hand, was so difficult I couldn’t get through it in the easiest mode. I died constantly, was overwhelmed every second of the game, and I hated it. Even if I gave it more time and forced myself to finish it I wasn’t having fun.

my point is this Uber difficulty shit is bleeding it’s way into games that were never Uber difficult. It’s one thing to know a series in difficult (like a from software game) and just avoid them, but doom eternal was a massive departure in difficulty compared to its predecessors. This difficulty obsession shit is bleeding into other series. And to that I say: fucking bullshit.

Keep you’re try hard difficulty shit out of games I love. Or at least make a fucking easy mode for the love of god, it’s not taking anything away from the try hard fuck stick crowd.

and fuck off with saying I’m “crying” and all that, I’m aloud to have an opinion. You watering it down to just saying I’m “crying” is simplifying the argument prematurely, instead of engaging in a well thought out reply.
From what I've heard, Doom Eternal was somewhat divisive in its design. It took an existing property and changed the rules. It wasn't Doom 2016 2, but something different. That's always going to be a risky choice, and I don't think I'd like it as much as 2016 so I haven't bought it. Some people have said that the difficulty comes from deviating from the way you're supposed to play, which, again, is a risky move when you're selling the game to customers of the previous game in the series. Some might argue that it's still balanced, but in a game like Doom that seems more like railroading.
 
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Sean Mirrsen

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Nobody normal would complain about the lack of bad games compared to good games as a lack of variety.
I would argue that, since "good" and "bad" are subjective, and one person's "good" game could be "bad" for another one, having a healthy mix of good and bad games both is actually vital to variety. To provide an extreme example, I consider most modern RTS games to be "bad". They all moved too far towards eSports, towards rapid action and micromanagement, they've become a spectator sport (or at least, tried to copy the few that have) and I hate this turn of events. I want more games like Total Annihilation, where large-scale management of your economy and industry, and controlling the flow (both of resources and your units, both of them infinite) are the name of the game, without taking away from attention to small details and consistency of the game's environment. But after Supreme Commander failed and other copycats went back to trying to be eSports games, I now know I'll never see the genre return to its height again. Nobody - no big company - wants to devote the money to make another silly but awesome RTS like Submarine Titans, nobody has the will to try and copy Homeworld, because "everybody knows it'll never be good".

I spoke of a genre here, a genre being overtaken by a predisposition towards the "right" ways of doing things, but it can and will apply to everything. And it's started already, with making "easy" games and "easy modes" being seen as "right", and it's slowly eating away at everything too. Games should be difficult, they should put up a challenge. Beating a game should be an achievement, a real one rather than a little digital plaque saying you've gotten to the end. And much like you wouldn't send a novice skier careening down the Death Gorge (or whatever silly name people come up for such things in movies), there could - should - exist games that cater to specific levels of play. Difficult games should have the right to exist, just like easy ones.

But personally I think a total refusal to offer any sort of concession to worse players is unnecessarily purist in this day and age.
On the contrary, I think that especially in this day and age a good helping of purism is very necessary. The gaming industry is losing entire genres to the ongoing campaign of all-encompassing inclusivity and the ever-continuing search for more profit. That's why the games that buck the trend always stand out, the Metroids, the Dark Souls(es?), the occasional Meat Boy or Celeste. Games that position themselves as more than just interactive experiences, not as things to consume and throw away but as things to be beaten for a sense of achievement (and/or wonder, and/or a spot on the scoreboard).

Like, I get it, you want the industry to cater to everyone. I just think "everyone" should include people that, no matter how unreasonably, want their own Death Gorges to conquer.
 

Hunnybun

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I would argue that, since "good" and "bad" are subjective, and one person's "good" game could be "bad" for another one, having a healthy mix of good and bad games both is actually vital to variety. To provide an extreme example, I consider most modern RTS games to be "bad". They all moved too far towards eSports, towards rapid action and micromanagement, they've become a spectator sport (or at least, tried to copy the few that have) and I hate this turn of events. I want more games like Total Annihilation, where large-scale management of your economy and industry, and controlling the flow (both of resources and your units, both of them infinite) are the name of the game, without taking away from attention to small details and consistency of the game's environment. But after Supreme Commander failed and other copycats went back to trying to be eSports games, I now know I'll never see the genre return to its height again. Nobody - no big company - wants to devote the money to make another silly but awesome RTS like Submarine Titans, nobody has the will to try and copy Homeworld, because "everybody knows it'll never be good".

I spoke of a genre here, a genre being overtaken by a predisposition towards the "right" ways of doing things, but it can and will apply to everything. And it's started already, with making "easy" games and "easy modes" being seen as "right", and it's slowly eating away at everything too. Games should be difficult, they should put up a challenge. Beating a game should be an achievement, a real one rather than a little digital plaque saying you've gotten to the end. And much like you wouldn't send a novice skier careening down the Death Gorge (or whatever silly name people come up for such things in movies), there could - should - exist games that cater to specific levels of play. Difficult games should have the right to exist, just like easy ones.

On the contrary, I think that especially in this day and age a good helping of purism is very necessary. The gaming industry is losing entire genres to the ongoing campaign of all-encompassing inclusivity and the ever-continuing search for more profit. That's why the games that buck the trend always stand out, the Metroids, the Dark Souls(es?), the occasional Meat Boy or Celeste. Games that position themselves as more than just interactive experiences, not as things to consume and throw away but as things to be beaten for a sense of achievement (and/or wonder, and/or a spot on the scoreboard).

Like, I get it, you want the industry to cater to everyone. I just think "everyone" should include people that, no matter how unreasonably, want their own Death Gorges to conquer.

Yes, but they have that.

My problem is with their wanting that involving other players being excluded *as a matter of principle*.

If it were a necessity for them having that that other players are excluded, then fine. But I think I've explained pretty well why that's not necessary. So I'm just left wondering why exactly they still insist that many players be excluded. Seems a bit, you know, *mean*.

I don't really know where to start with with the whole good/bad/variety thing. I thought it was obvious that I meant objectively good and bad, not just subjectively, which is basically just taste. But whatever, substitute frame rate then. Nobody would object to a drive to have all games be 30fps minimum on the grounds that barely playable 15fps games offer vital "variety". That's the point I was making. Some things are just obviously progressive. Man it's so tedious to even have to point that out.
 
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Sean Mirrsen

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If it were a necessity for them having that that other players are excluded, then fine. But I think I've explained pretty well why that's not necessary. So I'm just left wondering why exactly they still insist that many players be excluded. Seems a bit, you know, *mean*.
Like I said, people want their Death Gorges. Their Mount Dooms, their 24 Hours(es) of Le Mans(es). People are competitive and seek... affirmation? To assert themselves, to have a definite thing they can say they've gotten to that no or very few other people have. It's the real sense of achievement that I talked about. People want to be able to do a thing that nobody else can, and definitively say "I did that, went there, and saw it", and you can't tell me you wouldn't understand a professional mountain-climber that's miffed at the tourist helipad on top of the tallest mountain he ever climbed.
 
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Hunnybun

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Like I said, people want their Death Gorges. Their Mount Dooms, their 24 Hours(es) of Le Mans(es). People are competitive and seek... affirmation? To assert themselves, to have a definite thing they can say they've gotten to that no or very few other people have. It's the real sense of achievement that I talked about. People want to be able to do a thing that nobody else can, and definitively say "I did that, went there, and saw it", and you can't tell me you wouldn't understand a professional mountain-climber that's miffed at the tourist helipad on top of the tallest mountain he ever climbed.

Well I can see that that is obviously how some people feel.

I just don't sympathise with it.
 

MajinSweet4

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How about you ACTUALLY address the suggestions I made and tell me why they're unreasonable, rather than just talk obvious bs like I'm demanding all games be tailored for me.

Btw, is the solution you refer to buying a $2k PC just to play a $70 game? If so, that's fucking laughable.
Nah, you don't deserve that at this point. Don't pretend like you have any idea how to make a video game and "fix" these issues. To put it simply, you don't get it. And the thing is, that's fine. Everyone has things they just don't get. Where you screw up and become a douche is when you say "I don't get this thing, it needs to change." So no, you don't get any more civility at that point. I don't want to change the games you like, so don't try to change the games other people like. It's that simple.
 
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Hunnybun

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Nah, you don't deserve that at this point. Don't pretend like you have any idea how to make a video game and "fix" these issues. To put it simply, you don't get it. And the thing is, that's fine. Everyone has things they just don't get. Where you screw up and become a douche is when you say "I don't get this thing, it needs to change." So no, you don't get any more civility at that point. I don't want to change the games you like, so don't try to change the games other people like. It's that simple.

Translation: I have no answer to your arguments, so I'm going to dish out some hyperbolic tripe about you being beyond civilised discourse. I'm that simple.
 
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Sean Mirrsen

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Well I can see that that is obviously how some people feel.

I just don't sympathise with it.
And, evidently, neither do they with you. It's an impasse.

All told, I'm usually all for easy modes, as long as normal and up provide increasing rewards. Better/different story, secret unlocks and characters, etc. I always loved the difficulty system in Super Robot Taisen on the GBA, where in order to play on Hard and get the good rewards and the true ending you have to prove you're capable of it. The game starts on Normal, and if you complete specific difficult objectives you get "mastery points". Keep earning mastery points, and the game goes into Hard mode, making scenarios more difficult and making earning those points even harder. Keep missing the mastery points, and the game goes to Easy mode. Easy mode has its own, different mission rewards, but you get some of the better and more unique machines and characters on Hard, and you only get to the super-hard final mission and the "true" ending (at least in the Original Generation games) if you manage to remain on Hard mode until the final mission (i.e. you miss no more than one mastery point across the entire game).

It is, I think, a fair system. A struggling player will be helped, and will return to regular difficulty if they improve. A good player will meet a harder challenge. And only the ones that really master the game get to the true hardest ending. It's a variation on the usual dynamic difficulty, but it doesn't change moment-to-moment. I would have loved to see a more overt implementation of this in a game like Homeworld (instead of just basing your success by the size of your fleet).
 
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FunkMiller

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Anything that improved accessibility in a game is fine by me. Do what the fuck you like with any settings that do not impact upon the intended gameplay.

Accessibility is not the same thing as difficulty though, you whiny idiots. Disabled people don’t need you’re patronising ‘support’ ….when they’re rinsing Ornstein & Smough for the twentieth time, while your able body is still shitting its diapers over getting past Taurus Demon.
 
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June

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From my point of view, Dark Souls and co lose ALL meaning without their difficulty level. Without the challenge, those games have no reason to exist. The reason why people love them is that they're rewarding. What is left if you make it easy so that everyone can play without making any effort?

Art style, music, story, characters , lore, animations, voice acting, etc.

People enjoy a lot of things about games besides just the difficulty aspect
 
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back in the 80s...the smart kids liked transformers
Nah, we were watching 3-2-1 Contact
Yep. To me its like people going to see a horror movie and complaining that its too scary or too violent for them.

The assumption that their tastes and tolerances need to be catered to, even when it flies in the face of the stated aims of the work is simply unreasonable.
Exactly, it's one thing to have an opinion and dislike a game, but games are different, for different tastes. Look at Ubisoft if you want to see what happens when everything is made for everyone.
 
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sorry i didnt have time to respond anything more to half assed "git gud" argument

what i means is, i will continue to complain until devs get the message. you try hards can keep your souls and your blood bourne and feel good about how superior you are at video games (lol) but this whole culture of every new game needs to be uber hard and devs really need to rip the knob off in terms of difficulty is not welcome, and im not the only one, and were not going to just shut up and play something else
In what gaming industry are you playing, if you think that "every new game needs to be ultra hard"? Games in general are clearly trending towards easier difficulties. A HANDFUL of "hard" games launch every year, and people lose their minds because some people enjoy them.
 
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Kev Kev

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In what gaming industry are you playing, if you think that "every new game needs to be ultra hard"? Games in general are clearly trending towards easier difficulties. A HANDFUL of "hard" games launch every year, and people lose their minds because some people enjoy them.
Games haves definitely been getting more and more difficult in recent years. It’s a thing, a lot of people are talking about it. Hence this thread.

Hell, I honestly wouldn’t give two shits if I wasn’t noticing it in some of my favorite franchises. It’s getting out of now tho. I feel like every other new game I play is just frustratingly difficult, and the easy mode is never easy enough.
 

FingerBang

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Art style, music, story, characters , lore, animations, voice acting, etc.

People enjoy a lot of things about games besides just the difficulty aspect
I... don't understand how much there is to enjoy without the gameplay, really. Let's agree to disagree.

I also don't understand how you would make it easier without losing the experience.
 

ethomaz

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Games haves definitely been getting more and more difficult in recent years. It’s a thing, a lot of people are talking about it. Hence this thread.

Hell, I honestly wouldn’t give two shits if I wasn’t noticing it in some of my favorite franchises. It’s getting out of now tho. I feel like every other new game I play is just frustratingly difficult, and the easy mode is never easy enough.
The opposite most games become easier this generation except some devs that choose to walk the more difficult path.

You can not remember but games are becoming easier and easier each new generation.

Gamers nowadays have no ideia what is a hard game.
 
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Kev Kev

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The opposite most games become easier this generation except some devs that choose to walk the more difficult path.

You can not remember but games are becoming easier and easier each new generation.


Gamers nowadays have no ideia what is a hard game.
Lol thanks for telling me what I can and can’t remember and what I do and do not know 🤣

although to be fair I’m pretty sure English isn’t your first language so…
 
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ethomaz

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Facts.

There were recent articles talking abou the reasons why games today become easier.






But it is a trend generation over generation with few exceptions… in 2013 we were already talking why games were getting easier.





 

ethomaz

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Lol thanks for telling me what I can and can’t remember and what I do and do not know 🤣

although to be fair I’m pretty sure English isn’t your first language so…
What I said is a know fact lol

We can start making comparisons between games for NES, SNES, PS1/N64, PS2, PS3 and finally PS4.

There are exceptions but most PS4 games have very low level of difficult compared with games from previous generations… NES/SNES games were the hardest.

The discussion should be around why games are getting easier thought the years or generations.

PS. You talked about Doom series and yes Doom Eternal is hard that most Doom releases but it is not the hardest in the series… the 1996 games are a step ahead Doom Eternal in difficult level.
 
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