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DF: The Touryst PS5 - The First 8K 60fps Console Game

Loxus

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The 1080 ti is based on GP102 die used by the titan x Pascal GPU which has all 96 ROPs (and 2 SM desactivated), they desactivated 8 ROPs for the 1080 ti (not more SM) + reduced the memory interface.
The 3080 ti is based on 3090 die which has 128 ROPs, here it's 16 desactivated.
The 1080ti could show that some GP102 had deffect at ROPs level and why the 1080 ti differ only at this level compared to the titan x Pascal.
Your still missing the point, even if deactivated. It still had an unnatural group of ROPs.

So anything is possible when it comes to Mark Cerny. You guys refuse to believe anything that different.

Just like when people were saying PS5's FPU was cut down, which turns out it is actually densely compact and still is 256.
 
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Riky

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I honestly think PS5 version got the time and resources it neened. I mean, it looks amazing, an absolutely gorgeous game and it runs like a dream. After all it was an Xbox platform that was left without one of the modes that PS5 and Series X did get. Id has done a wonderful job. And to top it all it was a free upgrade.


On the other hand I'm not much of a fan of VRS. It was supposed to help keep a higher rez/performance at the expense of degrading certain parts of the image that the user wouldn't notice. But you sure will notice. And I'm not talking specifically about DOOM Eternal, but every single game that implements VRS I've seen so far, it's kind of a mix bag. Hopefully we'll see better implementations in the future. Does anyone know if the PC version supports VRS? If it provides such a large number of benefits it definitely should, there are a lot of compatible GPUs out there, right?
You have to remember there are two types of VRS, the software version that dates back to the 2019 Call Of Duty and is used in Metro Exodus update and Tier 2 VRS which is in the update of Gears 5 for Series consoles and Doom Eternal on Series X/S.
They have very different results.
 

Arioco

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You have to remember there are two types of VRS, the software version that dates back to the 2019 Call Of Duty and is used in Metro Exodus update and Tier 2 VRS which is in the update of Gears 5 for Series consoles and Doom Eternal on Series X/S.
They have very different results.


I know, and I was talking about Tier 2 VRS, which is the one Doom Eternal uses.

Anyway that doesn't answer my question about whether VSR is supported on the PC version of Doom Eternal. I'm curious.
 
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Md Ray

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Does anyone know if the PC version supports VRS? If it provides such a large number of benefits it definitely should, there are a lot of compatible GPUs out there, right?
DOOM Eternal PC version? Nope, they haven't implemented it there. I believe it's VRS tier 2, so if it comes to PC, older cards like Pascal, GCN, and first-gen RDNA GPUs won't be able to run it.
 
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Loxus

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According to DF who speak to developers the GE is just a cutdown version of Mesh Shaders, we haven't seen any games with support for hardware assisted VRS and id said it didn't support it. I would guess they know.
I'm going to explain this to you as best as I can.

The PS5's Geometry Engine and Primitive Shaders are not the same as the PC GPU variant.

Search Primitive Shader and you'll see it doesn't even have a meaning or it's own Wiki page. All we have is this if you visit Shaders Wiki page.
Circa 2017, the AMD Vega microarchitecture added support for a new shader stage – primitive shaders – somewhat akin to compute shaders with access to the data necessary to process geometry. Similarly, Nvidia introduced mesh and task shaders with its Turing microarchitecture in 2018 which provide similar functionality and like AMD's primitive shaders are also modelled after compute shaders.

Mesh Shaders Release the Intrinsic Power of a GPU
Primitive shader for improved geometry processing. Replaces vertex and geometry shaders in geometry processing pipelines with a more programmable single stage. The primitive shader stage is more efficient, introduces intelligent load balancing technologies and higher throughput.


Primitive Shaders on PC GPU's are similar to Mesh Shaders as the bolded suggest.

While Primitive Shaders on PS5 does something completely different.
More complex usage involves something called primitive shaders which allow the game to synthesize geometry on-the-fly as it's being rendered.

Using primitive shaders on PlayStation 5 will allow for a broad variety of techniques including smoothly varying level of detail, addition of procedural detail to close up objects and improvements to particle effects and other visual special effects.


Mesh Shaders don't do that, Mesh shaders incorporate the features of Vertex and Geometry shaders into a single shader stage through batch processing of primitives and vertices data before the rasterizer. The shaders are also capable of amplifying and culling geometry.

Which is the same as the Geometry Engine.
PlayStation 5 has a new unit called the Geometry Engine which brings handling of triangles and other primitives under full programmatic control.

Simple usage could be performance optimizations such as removing back faced or off-screen vertices and triangles.


VRS in PS5 isn't hard to understand.
How VRS in PC works.
What Is Variable Rate Shading? A Basic Definition of Nvidia VRS
Variable rate shading (VRS) is a type of rendering technique used by Nvidia graphics cards based on the Turing (RTX 20-series and GTX 16-series cards) and Ampere (RTX 30-series) architectures, as well as Intel's Gen11 graphics architecture, which arrived in laptops in 2019 via Intel's 10nm Ice Lake CPUs. The point of VRS is to boost performance by allowing the GPU to use varying amounts of processing power within the same frame to render different parts of the image. With VRS, a GPU can use its full shading processing power for more complex parts of an image and less power for simpler parts of the image.

PS5's VRS solution is done by primitive shaders by smoothly varying level of detail, addition of procedural detail to close up objects and improvements to particle effects and other visual special effects on-the-fly as it's being rendered.

Both change detail on screen during rendering. Two different techniques with the same results.

VRS is just the name of a technique used by Microsoft DirectX API and PS5 doesn't use any API from DirectX. Why can't you get that through your head?

Microsoft DirectX
Microsoft revealed DirectX 12 Ultimate in March 2020. DirectX 12 Ultimate will unify to a common library on both Windows 10 computers and the Xbox Series X and other ninth-generation Xbox consoles. Among the new features in Ultimate includes DirectX Raytracing 1.1, Variable Rate Shading, which gives programmers control over the level of detail of shading depending on design choices, Mesh Shaders, and Sampler Feedback.
 

DeepEnigma

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DOOM Eternal PC version? Nope, they haven't implemented it there. I believe it's VRS tier 2, so if it comes to PC, older cards like Pascal, GCN, and first-gen RDNA GPUs won't be able to run it.
PC must not support it, id would know. ;)
 
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Arioco

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DOOM Eternal PC version? Nope, they haven't implemented it there. I believe it's VRS tier 2, so if it comes to PC, older cards like Pascal, GCN, and first-gen RDNA GPUs won't be able to run it.


Well, but they did implement RT and DLSS and anyone with a Pascal, GNC or RDNA card won't be able to enable them either. On the other hand people who own a Turing or RDNA2 card would be able to run VRS and see if it's worth it from a performance/IQ perspective. Especially on PC people like to play at hundreds of frames per seconds and VRS should help.
 
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Arioco

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I'm going to explain this to you as best as I can.

The PS5's Geometry Engine and Primitive Shaders are not the same as the PC GPU variant.

Search Primitive Shader and you'll see it doesn't even have a meaning or it's own Wiki page. All we have is this if you visit Shaders Wiki page.
Circa 2017, the AMD Vega microarchitecture added support for a new shader stage – primitive shaders – somewhat akin to compute shaders with access to the data necessary to process geometry. Similarly, Nvidia introduced mesh and task shaders with its Turing microarchitecture in 2018 which provide similar functionality and like AMD's primitive shaders are also modelled after compute shaders.

Mesh Shaders Release the Intrinsic Power of a GPU
Primitive shader for improved geometry processing. Replaces vertex and geometry shaders in geometry processing pipelines with a more programmable single stage. The primitive shader stage is more efficient, introduces intelligent load balancing technologies and higher throughput.


Primitive Shaders on PC GPU's are similar to Mesh Shaders as the bolded suggest.

While Primitive Shaders on PS5 does something completely different.
More complex usage involves something called primitive shaders which allow the game to synthesize geometry on-the-fly as it's being rendered.

Using primitive shaders on PlayStation 5 will allow for a broad variety of techniques including smoothly varying level of detail, addition of procedural detail to close up objects and improvements to particle effects and other visual special effects.


Mesh Shaders don't do that, Mesh shaders incorporate the features of Vertex and Geometry shaders into a single shader stage through batch processing of primitives and vertices data before the rasterizer. The shaders are also capable of amplifying and culling geometry.

Which is the same as the Geometry Engine.
PlayStation 5 has a new unit called the Geometry Engine which brings handling of triangles and other primitives under full programmatic control.

Simple usage could be performance optimizations such as removing back faced or off-screen vertices and triangles.


VRS in PS5 isn't hard to understand.
How VRS in PC works.
What Is Variable Rate Shading? A Basic Definition of Nvidia VRS
Variable rate shading (VRS) is a type of rendering technique used by Nvidia graphics cards based on the Turing (RTX 20-series and GTX 16-series cards) and Ampere (RTX 30-series) architectures, as well as Intel's Gen11 graphics architecture, which arrived in laptops in 2019 via Intel's 10nm Ice Lake CPUs. The point of VRS is to boost performance by allowing the GPU to use varying amounts of processing power within the same frame to render different parts of the image. With VRS, a GPU can use its full shading processing power for more complex parts of an image and less power for simpler parts of the image.

PS5's VRS solution is done by primitive shaders by smoothly varying level of detail, addition of procedural detail to close up objects and improvements to particle effects and other visual special effects on-the-fly as it's being rendered.

Both change detail on screen during rendering. Two different techniques with the same results.

VRS is just the name of a technique used by Microsoft DirectX API and PS5 doesn't use any API from DirectX. Why can't you get that through your head?

Microsoft DirectX
Microsoft revealed DirectX 12 Ultimate in March 2020. DirectX 12 Ultimate will unify to a common library on both Windows 10 computers and the Xbox Series X and other ninth-generation Xbox consoles. Among the new features in Ultimate includes DirectX Raytracing 1.1, Variable Rate Shading, which gives programmers control over the level of detail of shading depending on design choices, Mesh Shaders, and Sampler Feedback.


Please, we should stop that now. By now it's been conformed PS5 does not support Tier 2 VRS. Period.

Not that I miss it too much since I'm not much of a fan of the results I've seen, but that's a fact.

We don't know exactly what GE is since SONY wouldn't tell us the full details. To be honest I find it's secrecy quite annoying. Remember when they wouldn't even confirm hardware accelerated RT even though people rumored PS5 would not support it? I think MS deserves a lot of praise for being so open about its hardware and it's new features. I mean, it's OK to let the games speak for themselves, but a bit of explanations about the hardware would be nice...
 

Bernd Lauert

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Please, we should stop that now. By now it's been conformed PS5 does not support Tier 2 VRS. Period.

Not that I miss it too much since I'm not much of a fan of the results I've seen, but that's a fact.

We don't know exactly what GE is since SONY wouldn't tell us the full details. To be honest I find it's secrecy quite annoying. Remember when they wouldn't even confirm hardware accelerated RT even though people rumored PS5 would not support it? I think MS deserves a lot of praise for being so open about its hardware and it's new features. I mean, it's OK to let the games speak for themselves, but a bit of explanations about the hardware would be nice...
Microsoft is kinda forced to explain everything because their console is based on DX12U. AMD, Intel and Nvidia want to know what they're dealing with.
 
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Loxus

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Your still missing the point, even if deactivated. It still had an unnatural group of ROPs.

So anything is possible when it comes to Mark Cerny. You guys refuse to believe anything that different.

Just like when people were saying PS5's FPU was cut down, which turns out it is actually densely compact and still is 256.
To add to this, those ROPs are mostly disabled because the card doesn't need them, it's cut down after all. The 1080TI could of been cut down to 64 ROPs, but clearly the GPU needed more then 64 ROPs.

Who's to say the same can't be said about the PS5 and 64 ROPs wasn't enough.

Also, those ROPs probably are disabled for cost, not yields.
But with the PS5, they went out their way to add more ROPs which would lower the yields if ROPs were tied to yields because there are more ROPs. It would have been better to just go with 64 ROPs, it less die space and less complicated.

So imo the PS5 is using all 72ROPs
Also the PS5 doesn't use Microsoft's VRS solution, so it doesn't need RB+ ROPs since it's not going to fully use them.
 
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Loxus

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Please, we should stop that now. By now it's been conformed PS5 does not support Tier 2 VRS. Period.

Not that I miss it too much since I'm not much of a fan of the results I've seen, but that's a fact.

We don't know exactly what GE is since SONY wouldn't tell us the full details. To be honest I find it's secrecy quite annoying. Remember when they wouldn't even confirm hardware accelerated RT even though people rumored PS5 would not support it? I think MS deserves a lot of praise for being so open about its hardware and it's new features. I mean, it's OK to let the games speak for themselves, but a bit of explanations about the hardware would be nice...
Everything is in Road to PS5.
It's highly technical but everything is in there, except Machine Learning.

And again, VRS is a DirectX API feature so you'll never hear that name on PS5. Stop looking for the name and look for explanation of features.
 

MrFunSocks

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Please, we should stop that now. By now it's been conformed PS5 does not support Tier 2 VRS. Period.

Not that I miss it too much since I'm not much of a fan of the results I've seen, but that's a fact.

We don't know exactly what GE is since SONY wouldn't tell us the full details. To be honest I find it's secrecy quite annoying. Remember when they wouldn't even confirm hardware accelerated RT even though people rumored PS5 would not support it? I think MS deserves a lot of praise for being so open about its hardware and it's new features. I mean, it's OK to let the games speak for themselves, but a bit of explanations about the hardware would be nice...
Why do people think that the Geometry Engine is a Sony thing? It's an RDNA2 thing. The Series S and X SOCs have the geometry engine lol. You know why Sony haven't said anything about it? There's nothing to say - both consoles have it.
 
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Riky

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Everything is in Road to PS5.
It's highly technical but everything is in there, except Machine Learning.

And again, VRS is a DirectX API feature so you'll never hear that name on PS5. Stop looking for the name and look for explanation of features.

Totally untrue when the developers of Metro Exodus use the term for their PS5 upgrade.
 

Arioco

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Everything is in Road to PS5.
It's highly technical but everything is in there, except Machine Learning.

And again, VRS is a DirectX API feature so you'll never hear that name on PS5. Stop looking for the name and look for explanation of features.


In The Road to PS5 Cerny didn't say anything about VRS. He talked about Primitive Shaders, which allows to remove back faced or off screen triangles, but that's not what VRS does. One thing is about geometry, the other is about the quality of the shading.

As for ML, we don't know PS5 capabilities either, since it wasn't mentioned in The Road To PS5 either. We don't even know if PS5 support int8 and int4, though I read some people say it doesn't, which would be a very weird choice indeed, since if I'm not mistaken that feature was already supported by RDNA1 cards. Not that it would be comparable to Nvidia's Tensor Cores anyways, but it should help with ML operations, so why would they removed it? Does it take extra space on the silicon? Who knows...
 

Zathalus

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Your still missing the point, even if deactivated. It still had an unnatural group of ROPs.

So anything is possible when it comes to Mark Cerny. You guys refuse to believe anything that different.

Just like when people were saying PS5's FPU was cut down, which turns out it is actually densely compact and still is 256.
The PS5's FPU are actually cut down:

 

DeepEnigma

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For a machine that the same people spend so much time trying to make look inferior and anemic to their brand of choice with spec this and spec that, it's a wonder that it's able to hold its own and not be trounced.

A wonder, I say!

Dance Dancing GIF by AFV Pets
 

Riky

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As to hardware VRS we have yet to see developer comments affirming its superiority over the software solution.

The Coalition do just that here in a lot of detail.

 

Loxus

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In The Road to PS5 Cerny didn't say anything about VRS. He talked about Primitive Shaders, which allows to remove back faced or off screen triangles, but that's not what VRS does. One thing is about geometry, the other is about the quality of the shading.

As for ML, we don't know PS5 capabilities either, since it wasn't mentioned in The Road To PS5 either. We don't even know if PS5 support int8 and int4, though I read some people say it doesn't, which would be a very weird choice indeed, since if I'm not mistaken that feature was already supported by RDNA1 cards. Not that it would be comparable to Nvidia's Tensor Cores anyways, but it should help with ML operations, so why would they removed it? Does it take extra space on the silicon? Who knows...
Did you not read my whole post?
Geometry Engine brings handling of triangles and other primitives under full programmatic control. Simple usage could be performance optimizations such as removing back faced or off-screen vertices and triangles.

While primitive shaders works by smoothly varying level of detail, addition of procedural detail to close up objects and improvements to particle effects and other visual special effects on-the-fly as it's being rendered.

The Geometry Engine is a component with different features within it. Geometry Engine itself handles vertices and triangles, while Primitive Shaders determines how detailed objects and effects are during rendering.


I already posted PS5 ML capabilities which uses the GPU not dedicated hardware, similarly to XBSX.

That's probably why it was not mention in Road to PS5, because Mark Cerny was only talking about PS5 dedicated hardware capabilities.

It's like going around in a circles with you guys.
 

Loxus

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Bruh, Variable Rate Shading gives programmers control over the level of detail of shading depending on design choices.

Them saying undated for PS5, could simply mean updated to take advantage of PS5 solution.

They could of simply just say we're using the same VRS solution PS5 as we did on PS4.

And if PS4 has a VRS solution, why can't PS5 have a VRS solution?
 

jumpship

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PlayStation 5 has a new unit called the Geometry Engine which brings handling of triangles and other primitives under full programmatic control.

Just wanted to quote this, informative post btw. I find the bolded really interesting, especially with speculation about what DirectX style features the PS5 may or may not be capable of.

If you have full programmable control over any triangles or primitives in a scene then surely it opens up the possibilities to all kinds of cool new features or optimizations a dev can think of.

With this level of control it must be easy to change for example the shading rate or tessellation level of any primitives/triangles based on whatever parameters you like eg screen region, distance from camera etc, and let the geometry engine take care of it.

I mean why even stop at the features implemented in DirectX if developers have this level of programmability over all assets in a scene to do whatever they want?
 

Loxus

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Just wanted to quote this, informative post btw. I find the bolded really interesting, especially with speculation about what DirectX style features the PS5 may or may not be capable of.

If you have full programmable control over any triangles or primitives in a scene then surely it opens up the possibilities to all kinds of cool new features or optimizations a dev can think of.

With this level of control it must be easy to change for example the shading rate or tessellation level of any primitives/triangles based on whatever parameters you like eg screen region, distance from camera etc, and let the geometry engine take care of it.

I mean why even stop at the features implemented in DirectX if developers have this level of programmability over all assets in a scene to do whatever they want?
Exactly, this is what I've been trying to say.
 

onQ123

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Being that this thread is all over the place , Do y'all think that being able to render 8K 60fps bolds well for PSVR2 & what are the chances of it being able to run 240fps VR games?
 
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Locuza

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So RX 5700XT (which is quite similar to PS5) has 64 ROPs without any disabled units then, correct?

PS5 has 72 ROPs.


While the 5700 has 64 ROPs


And look how different the CUs and TUMs are.


Just because the PS5 has the same layout, don't mean it's an 5700. It means that layout works.

The disabled ROPs is just a guess done by whoever did the annotation.
The Navi10 annotation is not correct in regards to the ROPs, in the middle it bundles hw blocks together which are not the same.
It actually looks like this on Navi10, similar to the PS5 layout with 72 ROPs:



72 active ROPs would be mostly useless because the ROPs are at the end of the pixel pipeline (output merging):


In the beginning is the frontend Rasterizer which takes the final geometry data and converts that into raw pixel fragments.
Each Rasterizer writes out 16 Pixels/clock.
Navi10, the PS5 and Xbox Series X have 4 Rasterizers => 64 Pixels per clock.
In terms of pixel fillrate 72 cROPs would do nothing because the frontend rasterizer can only deliver 64 Pixels per clock and that's just the theoretical optimum.
Nvidia had some unbalanced designs in that regard.
For example the GTX 1060 has 48 ROPs, however the pixel frontend can only deliver 32 Pixels/clock, so the backend never really helps on the pixel rate side, because the frontend limits the throughput.
That configuration happened because Nvidia scaled the ROPs together with the memory interface, they changed that starting with Ampere, now they always have a 1:1 ratio.
I feel very certain that only 64 ROPs are active on the PS5, this leads to a clean 1:1 ratio with no extra power for hw which would be mostly useless anyway.


You are correct, the PS5 doesn't have VRS. It has it's own equivalent, which is handle by the Geometry Engine.

So it doesn't need those RB+. Just like it doesn't need Infinity Cache

What you don't understand, is the Geometry Engine also has control over Pixels.

Same way Cerny repurpose a CU for the Tempest Engine, he did the same for the Geometry Engine.

We’ve already seen patents for Foveated Rendering (here is one) for the PS5 and which is used for the eye-tracking of PSVR2, and this seemingly leverages the GE of the console. It specifically mentions in the patents the varying resolution of the images based upon a users gaze.


This is more advanced than VRS Tier 2 and doing what VRS does is child's play for the Geometry Engine.
That's not equivalent.
VRS decouples the shading rate from the rasterization rate.
Regions with different resolutions would scale shading and rasterization at the same time.

As for ML, we don't know PS5 capabilities either, since it wasn't mentioned in The Road To PS5 either. We don't even know if PS5 support int8 and int4, though I read some people say it doesn't, which would be a very weird choice indeed, since if I'm not mistaken that feature was already supported by RDNA1 cards. Not that it would be comparable to Nvidia's Tensor Cores anyways, but it should help with ML operations, so why would they removed it? Does it take extra space on the silicon? Who knows...
It's supported by Navi14 and Navi12 but not Navi10.
The PS5 hardware design was started very early on, the first hw got the IP version 10.0, that's even older than AMD's RDNA1 GPUs (10.1.x).
AMD has Linux patches for a "new" APU, where the graphics unit has the same configuration as the PS5 GPU, (cache, display-controllers, number of CUs).
It uses older IP blocks, has the GFX version 10.1.3 and it supports ray tracing but not dot-product instructions.
I think it's likely that this is the PS5 APU.

Mixed dot-product instructions provide a nice speed up for low-precision inference workload, the area overhead is minimal.

The PS5's FPU are actually cut down:

I really don't think that the FPU has just 2 ports.
The performance looks comparable to vanilla Zen2 APUs in FP workload.
Physically some points look cut down but as far as I saw, there is still not really a cohesive picture.
 
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yewles1

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Being that this thread is all over the place , Do y'all think that being able to render 8K 60fps bolds well for PSVR2 & what are the chances of it being able to run 240fps VR games?
Depends on the quality sacrificed for said performance. At least they won't end up as bad as DriveClub VR...
 
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Loxus

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The Navi10 annotation is not correct in regards to the ROPs, in the middle it bundles hw blocks together which are not the same.
It actually looks like this on Navi10, similar to the PS5 layout with 72 ROPs:



72 active ROPs would be mostly useless because the ROPs are at the end of the pixel pipeline (output merging):


In the beginning is the frontend Rasterizer which takes the final geometry data and converts that into raw pixel fragments.
Each Rasterizer writes out 16 Pixels/clock.
Navi10, the PS5 and Xbox Series X have 4 Rasterizers => 64 Pixels per clock.
In terms of pixel fillrate 72 cROPs would do nothing because the frontend rasterizer can only deliver 64 Pixels per clock and that's just the theoretical optimum.
Nvidia had some unbalanced designs in that regard.
For example the GTX 1060 has 48 ROPs, however the pixel frontend can only deliver 32 Pixels/clock, so the backend never really helps on the pixel rate side, because the frontend limits the throughput.
That configuration happened because Nvidia scaled the ROPs together with the memory interface, they changed that starting with Ampere, now they always have a 1:1 ratio.
I feel very certain that only 64 ROPs are active on the PS5, this leads to a clean 1:1 ratio with no extra power for hw which would be mostly useless anyway.



That's not equivalent.
VRS decouples the shading rate from the rasterization rate.
Regions with different resolutions would scale shading and rasterization at the same time.


It's supported by Navi14 and Navi12 but not Navi10.
The PS5 hardware design was started very early on, the first hw got the IP version 10.0, that's even older than AMD's RDNA1 GPUs (10.1.x).
AMD has Linux patches for a "new" APU, where the graphics unit has the same configuration as the PS5 GPU, (cache, display-controllers, number of CUs).
It uses older IP blocks, has the GFX version 10.1.3 and it supports ray tracing but not dot-product instructions.
I think it's likely that this is the PS5 APU.

Mixed dot-product instructions provide a nice speed up for low-precision inference workload, the area overhead is minimal.


I really don't think that the FPU has just 2 ports.
The performance looks comparable to vanilla Zen2 APUs in FP workload.
Physically some points look cut down but as far as I saw, there is still not really a cohesive picture.
I got that Navi 10 annotation from Nemez. The person is pretty knowledgeable.
It also matches AMD's annotation.


I know your much more knowledgeable about GPU's then me, so I will keep what you say about it being 64 ROPs as ture.

But I'm also keeping an open mind about the possibility that Cerny found a use for 72 ROPs.

Would like to see you annotate the XBSS also.
 
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Locuza

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I got that Navi 10 annotation from Nemez. The person is pretty knowledgeable.
It also matches AMD's annotation.
Nemez does great work but sometimes we make more or less obvious mistakes (depending on your own expertise and knowledge).
If you look at the die shot yourself, you can come to the same conclusion.
For example on the PS5 you see hardware blocks which have the same amount of SRAM cells and cell types.
Sometimes the SRAM placement pattern is also the same or at least somewhat similar.
Under the Render Backend in the middle you can see one purple block, which is visibly responsible for something else because it has much more SRAM and sticks out in comparison to the rest.
Left to it is another block, which I left blank without any color.
This block has no SRAM cells.


On Navi10 you can also find this purple block, a block without SRAM cells next to it and then another block with a few SRAM cells.
Nemez bundled those together as 4x ROPs but it's definitely not right.

And AMD's marketing die graphic, I mean yeah. :D
That's not useful for any kind of precise claim about the real chip structures.

Would like to see you annotate the XBSS also.
At some later point in time.
I started a video series which targets the console designs.
1.) Is the Xbox Series really using "full RDNA2?
That's a nice video because it compares low level differences between PC RDNA1, RDNA2 and the Xbox Series.
Some of it is useful as background knowledge for the die shot analysis.

2.) The next video started to look at the Xbox Series X die shot, but I only managed to include the I/O part for it:

For the next part it's planned to switch to the Xbox Series S die shot and annotate the I/O part there and switch back to the next topic, like GPU L2$, coherency and fabric blocks and then the same for the Xbox Series S.
I went through the Xbox Series S die shot myself, but I did not annotate anything yet.
The only thing which was kinda surprising was the display-controller side, it has just one Display-PHY vs. 3 on the Xbox Series X, the rest it pretty much what you would expect.
1x Shader Engine, 32 ROPs, 2MB GPU L2$, 12 WGPs / 22 CUs (10 WGPs / 20 CUs active).
The WGPs have a different hardware block layout on the TMU side and the SRAM placement is different here and there, which I found funny.

Personally I will likely go over it in 2022.
Currently I'm doing a video for Intel's upcoming DG2 Alchemist GPUs, then probably something for AMD's Aldebaran (CDNA2) and upcoming RDNA2 APUs like Van Gogh (Steam Deck) and Rembrandt (Zen3 APU with 12 RDNA2 CUs).
So I will be busy for awhile.
 

Loxus

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Nemez does great work but sometimes we make more or less obvious mistakes (depending on your own expertise and knowledge).
If you look at the die shot yourself, you can come to the same conclusion.
For example on the PS5 you see hardware blocks which have the same amount of SRAM cells and cell types.
Sometimes the SRAM placement pattern is also the same or at least somewhat similar.
Under the Render Backend in the middle you can see one purple block, which is visibly responsible for something else because it has much more SRAM and sticks out in comparison to the rest.
Left to it is another block, which I left blank without any color.
This block has no SRAM cells.


On Navi10 you can also find this purple block, a block without SRAM cells next to it and then another block with a few SRAM cells.
Nemez bundled those together as 4x ROPs but it's definitely not right.

And AMD's marketing die graphic, I mean yeah. :D
That's not useful for any kind of precise claim about the real chip structures.


At some later point in time.
I started a video series which targets the console designs.
1.) Is the Xbox Series really using "full RDNA2?
That's a nice video because it compares low level differences between PC RDNA1, RDNA2 and the Xbox Series.
Some of it is useful as background knowledge for the die shot analysis.

2.) The next video started to look at the Xbox Series X die shot, but I only managed to include the I/O part for it:

For the next part it's planned to switch to the Xbox Series S die shot and annotate the I/O part there and switch back to the next topic, like GPU L2$, coherency and fabric blocks and then the same for the Xbox Series S.
I went through the Xbox Series S die shot myself, but I did not annotate anything yet.
The only thing which was kinda surprising was the display-controller side, it has just one Display-PHY vs. 3 on the Xbox Series X, the rest it pretty much what you would expect.
1x Shader Engine, 32 ROPs, 2MB GPU L2$, 12 WGPs / 22 CUs (10 WGPs / 20 CUs active).
The WGPs have a different hardware block layout on the TMU side and the SRAM placement is different here and there, which I found funny.

Personally I will likely go over it in 2022.
Currently I'm doing a video for Intel's upcoming DG2 Alchemist GPUs, then probably something for AMD's Aldebaran (CDNA2) and upcoming RDNA2 APUs like Van Gogh (Steam Deck) and Rembrandt (Zen3 APU with 12 RDNA2 CUs).
So I will be busy for awhile.


While likely at both these, it still looks different. Like Sony added more stuff. XBSX also look similar to PS5, except for the RB+ ROPs and the Shader Engines being side by side. Maybe that's how RDNA 2 will look like in that same area.

Interesting you mention Van Gogh, in was thought to be the Series S or a new console from a different manufacturer. Never thought it would be the Steam Deck.

It also made me remember this list.
ASIC ID: GFX10 = NAVILITE.
: GFX1000 = NAVI10LITE.
: GFX1001 = NAVI10LITE.
: GFX100X = NAVI12LITE.
ASIC ID: GFX10_1 (A) = GCN 5.0 = NAVI.
: GFX1010 = NAVI10.
: GFX101F = NAVI10_A0.
: GFX101E = NAVI10.
ASIC ID: GFX10_1 (B) = GCN 5.1 = NAVI +DLOps.
: GFX1011 = NAVI12.
: GFX1012 = NAVI14.
: GFX101D = NAVI14.
ASIC ID: GFX10_2
: GFX1020 = NAVI21LITE.
ASIC ID: GFX10_3
: GFX1030 = NAVI21.
: GFX1031 = NAVI22.
: GFX1032 = VAN GOGH.
: GFX103X = NAVI23.


Oberon GPU which is the PS5's GPU was said to have the I.D. GFX1000 = NAVI10LITE.

If the rumor is true that Sony help AMD with RDNA. This is the proof right here. It also gives credit to what Cerny said in Road to PS5.
f:id:keepitreal:20200329144917j:plain


First we have a custom AMD GPU based on there "RDNA2" technology what does that mean AMD is continuously improving and revising their tech for RDNA2 their goals were roughly speaking to reduce power of consumption by re-architecting the GPU to put data close to where it's needed, to optimize the GPU for performance and to adding new more advanced feature set.

But that feature set is malleable which is to say that we have our own needs for PlayStation and that can factor into what the AMD roadmap becomes.

So collaboration is born.

If we bring concepts to AMD that are felt to be widely useful then they can be adopted into RDNA - and used broadly including in PC GPUs.

If the ideas are sufficiently specific to what we're trying to accomplish like the GPU cache scrubbers I was talking about then they end up being just for us.

If you see a similar discrete GPU available as a PC card at roughly the same time as we release our console that means our collaboration with AMD succeeded.

In producing technology useful in both worlds it doesn't mean that we as Sony. simply incorporated the PC part into our console.

This continuous improvement in AMD technology means it's dangerous to rely on teraflops as an absolute indicator of performance.

And see you count should be avoided as well.


What all of this sounds like, is RDNA 1 and RDNA 2 GPUs are based on the PS5's GPU. I know it's hard to believe, but proof right there. PS5 GPU is the first alliteration of RDNA.

RDNA 1 GPUs are a cut down revision without RT, while RDNA 2 GPUs are a revision that adds Infinity Cache and RB+ ROPs (for DirectX VRS). XBSX is basically a PS5 GPU, but uses RB+ ROPs for DirectX VR, which is why it doesn't have Infinity Cache.



Imo, RDNA 1&2 is determined by the CUs,

Everything else, is just added features.

I know it sounds unbelievable, but that seems to be the case.
Sorry if my long posts seems to derail the thread, but understanding how these consoles differ. Will help us understand what the developer meant by higher clocks and memory setup made the difference.
 
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Epic Sax CEO

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What all of this sounds like, is RDNA 1 and RDNA 2 GPUs are based on the PS5's GPU. I know it's hard to believe, but proof right there. PS5 GPU is the first alliteration of RDNA.

Oh yes, I remember that during RDNA1 time there was some talk that it contained a lot of bugs that the drivers where holding together. It was not a big surprise with all the changes AMD made to leave GCN behind, but I don't think the PS5 GPU is the "first" iteration. Yes, it must had started to be developed earlier, Navi must had began with the goal of delivering on Sony's order, but the design was only decided after RDNA1 was being put in the market incorporating some fundamental features from RDNA2.

When you think that AMD makes these GPUs inside their Semi Custom division it's pointless to argue what is what. Since Polaris they're reinforced the "modularity" of their GPUs, parts can be swapped as needed.
 

onQ123

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Just an fyi, the game doesn't ouput at 8K. It's strictly 4K output :messenger_winking:
It will be once PS5 update for 8K output & maybe a patch for the game but it's pretty much 8K


PS5 is compatible with 8K displays at launch, and after a future system software update will be able to output resolutions up to 8K when content is available, with supported software
 

Loxus

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Oh yes, I remember that during RDNA1 time there was some talk that it contained a lot of bugs that the drivers where holding together. It was not a big surprise with all the changes AMD made to leave GCN behind, but I don't think the PS5 GPU is the "first" iteration. Yes, it must had started to be developed earlier, Navi must had began with the goal of delivering on Sony's order, but the design was only decided after RDNA1 was being put in the market incorporating some fundamental features from RDNA2.

When you think that AMD makes these GPUs inside their Semi Custom division it's pointless to argue what is what. Since Polaris they're reinforced the "modularity" of their GPUs, parts can be swapped as needed.
Take a look at this again.
PS5's GPU is before RDNA1. If the PS5 was down with the XBSX, your point would of made more sense.

[#小町戯言シリーズ] AMD GFX-ID : Which generation is the chip?
ASIC ID : GFX10 = NAVI For SCBU.
: GFX1000 = ARIEL/OBERON = NAVI10LITE. = PS5
: GFX1001 = ARIEL/OBERON = NAVI10LITE. = PS5
: GFX100FFD = NAVI12LITE.
: GFX100X = NAVI14LITE.

ASIC ID : GFX10_1 (A) = RDNA1 = NAVI.
: GFX1010 = NAVI10. = 5700 XT
: GFX101F = NAVI10_A0.
: GFX101E = NAVI10.

ASIC ID : GFX10_1 (B) = RDNA1 = NAVI +DLOps.
: GFX1011 = NAVI12.
: GFX1012 = NAVI14.= 5500 XT
: GFX101D = NAVI14.

ASIC ID : GFX10_2 = NAVI For SCBU.
: GFX1020 = ARDEN/ARDEN For Server = NAVI21LITE. = XBSX/S

ASIC ID : GFX10_3 = RDNA2.
: GFX1030 = NAVI21. = 6900 XT
: GFX1031 = NAVI22. = 6700 XT
: GFX1032 = NAVI23. = 6600 XT
: GFX1033 = VANGOGH.
: GFX1034 = NAVI24.
   : GFX1035 = REMBRANDT.
ASIC ID : GFX10_4 = NAVI For SCBU.
: GFX1040 = VANGOGH LITE = MERO (?).

ASIC ID : GFX11 = RDNA3?
: GFX1100 = NAVI31.


PS5 is before RDNA1 and is based on RDNA2. How is that possible, I would say RDNA1 is a cut down version of RDNA2 (was probably originally RDNA1) and released before RDNA2 to bring in extra revenue, is my guess.

And the PS5 being before everything else, only proves my point about RDNA 1&2 being based on PS5. It's all speculation btw.
 
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onQ123

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Xbox Series X will also get a 8K Firmware update

We knew that 8K games would be thin on the ground at best, but our assumption was that an 8K output would still be an option in the video menus, possibly only for the user interface or perhaps for YouTube, which does host a small amount of 8K content.


Alas, that isn't the case. When testing for our own Xbox Series X review, we quickly realised that 8K simply isn't an option available anywhere. Upon querying this with Microsoft, we received this confirmation:

“Xbox Series X is fully capable of 8K output. However, as there is not media content or games that currently support 8K resolution, we have not enabled the option within the system settings at this time. Xbox Series X was designed with the next 8 to 10 years of advancements in mind, and as 8K becomes a more widely adopted format, the console will support it”.

 

Epic Sax CEO

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Take a look at this again.
PS5's GPU is before RDNA1. If the PS5 was down with the XBSX, your point would of made more sense.

That list only reflects when the project started, not when it finished.
What I said was the Navi started from the collaboration with Sony for the next gen console GPU, that's why the PS5 appears first in the list despite the design probably being finished after RDNA1 was ready to market and AMD was working on the other features to make RDNA2.
 

jroc74

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For a machine that the same people spend so much time trying to make look inferior and anemic to their brand of choice with spec this and spec that, it's a wonder that it's able to hold its own and not be trounced.

A wonder, I say!

Dance Dancing GIF by AFV Pets
Its amazing, really. I basically said the same thing in another thread today.

I am legit shocked this thread has gotten this big.

But, some useful, informed posts have appeared....so its all good.