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DF: The Touryst PS5 - The First 8K 60fps Console Game

SenjutsuSage

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Looking at the file info is useless, you are only getting info that it's been compiled for native execution, which means almost nothing (at least on Xbox so far), because many APIs are just in deprecated state (and will be for year or? hard to say, 2 years are mostly "Microsoft time"), thus if you can ignore the ⚠️ in the IDE, you can run this code no issues.

Also most of the time additional time = additional optimalisation and you can go deep on PS5. Not so much on Xbox. But one thing for sure, you don't have to take into account the fast/slow RAM bank...but then again, you can't really code that low on Xbox. The title OS, will take care of that. People looking at the HW differences really understates, where the real differences are...

Also cool, now The Touryst is interesting game. I like it a lot so I am enjoying the exposure.

You can code low on Series X. Microsoft even gives developers direct access to the underlying ray tracing hardware to manual schedule themselves. That's pretty low level access if you can takeover from the dynamic work scheduler of the GPU. So, yes, devs if they choose to do so on Xbox have all the low level access they need, and some devs have already done just that apparently.
 
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Riky

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Call them massive or whatever you will, I'm not calling them any of that. But this is about far more than just merely 2 more teraflops in reality. It's about a significant boost to memory efficiency (aka more RAM to use) that's what SFS means for this system. That equates to much better utilization by the GPU of its top most memory bandwidth of 560GB/s. It means extra vitally important RAM to fit other things. These things I'm talking about are all things developers can use to be more efficient with the use of the available power the console offers. Same thing on PS5 side. You think in any generation these consoles are somehow getting stronger? No. They're being used more intelligently. The power never truly changes. The developers simply get smarter, more resourceful.

VRS Tier 2 is again not about giving you some massive boost. That's about giving you just enough extra percentages worth of frametime back that you can hopefully use that to ensure your game doesn't need dynamically scale down resolution as much, or stays within its framerate target more often. The coalition has an excellent blog on the subject.


That 10% higher resolution is key performance savings. Don't underestimate how important that can be, and what it can mean




VRR is more of a luxury item that no developer for Series X, in my opinion, should ever count on, but they know its there to clean up any perceived performance imperfections to the end user who has a capable TV. I'm happy that I do have such a TV. This isn't included in any of what I'm saying. That's a luxury item for the end user and nothing more. It's an invaluable feature for situations where a game has issues, but we all want excellent optimization. I think we agree there. The developer can't do anything with that to my knowledge to make Xbox run any more or less good in a game.

Mesh Shaders are something we know to have tremendous potential for what it could end up meaning for the amount of geometry detail that could end up appearing in Xbox and PC titles designed for it. It could mean possibly getting more geometry work done, far superior culling on a level just not seen in games today, and with that more advanced geometry handling and processing combined with that superior, much faster and more efficient means of culling it all, you are again freeing up more of the GPU and other hardware to be able to do more effective work overall.

Hardware Accelerated Machine Learning - Microsoft has put in their official hotchips presentation that it can be used for resolution scaling, AI and I think animations. Two of these things can lead to more convincing looking games, one of them, the resolution scaling if it works, could lead to developers using much lower resolutions to push the system even harder, yet it still look very high resolution regardless. So I'm not talking about Series X getting anymore powerful than it already is. I'm talking about the system having tricks for days to open up more opportunities for devs to extract results from the system well beyond what people might have expected, not because it's suddenly getting more powerful, but because it's being a lot more intelligently utilized. Having power alone is nothing, it's pointless.

If you can spend 20% or 30% to get results that look like 90% of what the people want as opposed to spending 90% to get that same 90%, the choice of which is the more efficient option is clear.

All these features I talk about on Series X are about doing things smarter, not about the hardware becoming more powerful. Sony are masters at this shit. PS4 and PS4 Pro didn't get stronger as the gen went, the devs just got smarter with how they use it through the same innovations in efficiency and optimization. That's all I'm talking about. Not magical secret sauce. :)

Developers can use VRR, there was one game I think it was A Plagues Tale but I'm not 100% on that, where they unlocked the framerate and let it run above the 60fps cap if they detected a VRR set, DF said that was noticeably smoother than a locked 60fps.
More developers should do this.
 

avin

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Can someone who knows enough help me with a thought experiment. Imagine a game that's not CPU limited, and graphically so simple it just needed one CU. As long as it was simple enough, the clock of the CUs in the GPU would be what mattered, right? No one would play it, but the PS5 would run it faster.

I'm not sure I asked that correctly, and hopefully the knowledgeable people here can figure out my intent. I'm not dissing this game at all. But the art style does look unusually simple, and I'm trying to figure if there's a set of edge cases for which what I said could be true. Thanks for any insight.

avin
 

M1chl

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You can code low on Series X. Microsoft even gives developers direct access to the underlying ray tracing hardware to manual schedule themselves. That's pretty low level access if you can takeover from the dynamic work scheduler of the GPU. So, yes, devs if they choose to do so on Xbox have all the low level access they need, and some devs have already done just that apparently.
Umm, low on Playstation means like really instructionally low, think assembler. DWORD console type of stuff, you can draw pixels, writing to a debug console. That is not permissible on Xbox. Also there is no allowed shader code, which is compiled on the fly (this code is written as a string normally and executed as you go), they have special data struct for it on SDK.

There is obviously security concern, however that's why PS OS is BSD/Unix fork, where any malicious activity is hard to do. And Sony have pretty advanced code checker, for games anyways. Not sure about Apps. That's some I haven't seen. Probably app is never developed low-level-ly...

I hope this info is known, otherwise
 

SenjutsuSage

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Umm, low on Playstation means like really instructionally low, think assembler. DWORD console type of stuff, you can draw pixels, writing to a debug console. That is not permissible on Xbox. Also there is no allowed shader code, which is compiled on the fly (this code is written as a string normally and executed as you go), they have special data struct for it on SDK.

There is obviously security concern, however that's why PS OS is BSD/Unix fork, where any malicious activity is hard to do. And Sony have pretty advanced code checker, for games anyways. Not sure about Apps. That's some I haven't seen. Probably app is never developed low-level-ly...

I hope this info is known, otherwise

I have some understanding of it, but I don't want to work the brain too hard right now lol. Will take your word for it. :)
 
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yewles1

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Can someone who knows enough help me with a thought experiment. Imagine a game that's not CPU limited, and graphically so simple it just needed one CU. As long as it was simple enough, the clock of the CUs in the GPU would be what mattered, right? No one would play it, but the PS5 would run it faster.

I'm not sure I asked that correctly, and hopefully the knowledgeable people here can figure out my intent. I'm not dissing this game at all. But the art style does look unusually simple, and I'm trying to figure if there's a set of edge cases for which what I said could be true. Thanks for any insight.

avin
I think you should look at this...
 

avin

Member
May 19, 2021
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I'm sure it's a lovely game, but that wasn't what I asked. The art style of the game - perhaps deceptively simple - did provoke the line of thinking that led me to my question, but my question is unrelated to the game.

Because really, I just wanted an answer to my "far edge case thought experiment" question, that I'm not sure I even know enough to ask clearly. Here it is again:

"Imagine a game that's not CPU limited, and graphically so simple it just needed one CU. As long as it was simple enough, the clock of the CUs in the GPU would be what mattered, right? No one would play it, but the PS5 would run it faster."

Right now, I'm just wondering if this is true. An answer would help me understand things.

avin
 
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arvfab

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Dec 4, 2020
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I'm sure it's a lovely game, but that wasn't what I asked. The art style of the game - perhaps deceptively simple - did provoke the line of thinking that led me to my question, but my question is unrelated to the game.

Because really, I just wanted an answer to my "far edge case thought experiment" question, that I'm not sure I even know enough to ask clearly. Here it is again:

"Imagine a game that's not CPU limited, and graphically so simple it just needed one CU. As long as it was simple enough, the clock of the CUs in the GPU would be what mattered, right? No one would play it, but the PS5 would run it faster."

Right now, I'm just wondering if this is true. An answer would help me understand things.

avin

What would you like as an answer? A yes or no?

In that case, yes, I guess 🤷🏼‍♂️
 

polybius80

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"Imagine a game that's not CPU limited, and graphically so simple it just needed one CU"



imagine a 64x64 pixels monochromatic pong at 60 fps, I think its so simple the GPU wont bother trying to parallelize its work and its still a game
 
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Dodkrake

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Call them massive or whatever you will, I'm not calling them any of that. But this is about far more than just merely 2 more teraflops in reality. It's about a significant boost to memory efficiency (aka more RAM to use) that's what SFS means for this system. That equates to much better utilization by the GPU of its top most memory bandwidth of 560GB/s. It means extra vitally important RAM to fit other things. These things I'm talking about are all things developers can use to be more efficient with the use of the available power the console offers. Same thing on PS5 side. You think in any generation these consoles are somehow getting stronger? No. They're being used more intelligently. The power never truly changes. The developers simply get smarter, more resourceful.

VRS Tier 2 is again not about giving you some massive boost. That's about giving you just enough extra percentages worth of frametime back that you can hopefully use that to ensure your game doesn't need dynamically scale down resolution as much, or stays within its framerate target more often. The coalition has an excellent blog on the subject.


That 10% higher resolution is key performance savings. Don't underestimate how important that can be, and what it can mean




VRR is more of a luxury item that no developer for Series X, in my opinion, should ever count on, but they know its there to clean up any perceived performance imperfections to the end user who has a capable TV. I'm happy that I do have such a TV. This isn't included in any of what I'm saying. That's a luxury item for the end user and nothing more. It's an invaluable feature for situations where a game has issues, but we all want excellent optimization. I think we agree there. The developer can't do anything with that to my knowledge to make Xbox run any more or less good in a game.

Mesh Shaders are something we know to have tremendous potential for what it could end up meaning for the amount of geometry detail that could end up appearing in Xbox and PC titles designed for it. It could mean possibly getting more geometry work done, far superior culling on a level just not seen in games today, and with that more advanced geometry handling and processing combined with that superior, much faster and more efficient means of culling it all, you are again freeing up more of the GPU and other hardware to be able to do more effective work overall.

Hardware Accelerated Machine Learning - Microsoft has put in their official hotchips presentation that it can be used for resolution scaling, AI and I think animations. Two of these things can lead to more convincing looking games, one of them, the resolution scaling if it works, could lead to developers using much lower resolutions to push the system even harder, yet it still look very high resolution regardless. So I'm not talking about Series X getting anymore powerful than it already is. I'm talking about the system having tricks for days to open up more opportunities for devs to extract results from the system well beyond what people might have expected, not because it's suddenly getting more powerful, but because it's being a lot more intelligently utilized. Having power alone is nothing, it's pointless.

If you can spend 20% or 30% to get results that look like 90% of what the people want as opposed to spending 90% to get that same 90%, the choice of which is the more efficient option is clear.

All these features I talk about on Series X are about doing things smarter, not about the hardware becoming more powerful. Sony are masters at this shit. PS4 and PS4 Pro didn't get stronger as the gen went, the devs just got smarter with how they use it through the same innovations in efficiency and optimization. That's all I'm talking about. Not magical secret sauce. :)

Your post: MS innovates, Sony stagnates

Reality: MS has no GOTY games since... when? Sony launches 1 per year.

Also reality: You're wrong.
 

Loxus

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Sep 18, 2020
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Call them massive or whatever you will, I'm not calling them any of that. But this is about far more than just merely 2 more teraflops in reality. It's about a significant boost to memory efficiency (aka more RAM to use) that's what SFS means for this system. That equates to much better utilization by the GPU of its top most memory bandwidth of 560GB/s. It means extra vitally important RAM to fit other things. These things I'm talking about are all things developers can use to be more efficient with the use of the available power the console offers. Same thing on PS5 side. You think in any generation these consoles are somehow getting stronger? No. They're being used more intelligently. The power never truly changes. The developers simply get smarter, more resourceful.

VRS Tier 2 is again not about giving you some massive boost. That's about giving you just enough extra percentages worth of frametime back that you can hopefully use that to ensure your game doesn't need dynamically scale down resolution as much, or stays within its framerate target more often. The coalition has an excellent blog on the subject.


That 10% higher resolution is key performance savings. Don't underestimate how important that can be, and what it can mean




VRR is more of a luxury item that no developer for Series X, in my opinion, should ever count on, but they know its there to clean up any perceived performance imperfections to the end user who has a capable TV. I'm happy that I do have such a TV. This isn't included in any of what I'm saying. That's a luxury item for the end user and nothing more. It's an invaluable feature for situations where a game has issues, but we all want excellent optimization. I think we agree there. The developer can't do anything with that to my knowledge to make Xbox run any more or less good in a game.

Mesh Shaders are something we know to have tremendous potential for what it could end up meaning for the amount of geometry detail that could end up appearing in Xbox and PC titles designed for it. It could mean possibly getting more geometry work done, far superior culling on a level just not seen in games today, and with that more advanced geometry handling and processing combined with that superior, much faster and more efficient means of culling it all, you are again freeing up more of the GPU and other hardware to be able to do more effective work overall.

Hardware Accelerated Machine Learning - Microsoft has put in their official hotchips presentation that it can be used for resolution scaling, AI and I think animations. Two of these things can lead to more convincing looking games, one of them, the resolution scaling if it works, could lead to developers using much lower resolutions to push the system even harder, yet it still look very high resolution regardless. So I'm not talking about Series X getting anymore powerful than it already is. I'm talking about the system having tricks for days to open up more opportunities for devs to extract results from the system well beyond what people might have expected, not because it's suddenly getting more powerful, but because it's being a lot more intelligently utilized. Having power alone is nothing, it's pointless.

If you can spend 20% or 30% to get results that look like 90% of what the people want as opposed to spending 90% to get that same 90%, the choice of which is the more efficient option is clear.

All these features I talk about on Series X are about doing things smarter, not about the hardware becoming more powerful. Sony are masters at this shit. PS4 and PS4 Pro didn't get stronger as the gen went, the devs just got smarter with how they use it through the same innovations in efficiency and optimization. That's all I'm talking about. Not magical secret sauce. :)
First off, XBSX Mesh Shaders aren't anything special compared to the PS5s Geometry Engine.

Here are a few points about PS5's Geometry Engine.

  • A new block that will give developers more control over triangles, primitives and geometry culling.
  • Removing back faced or off-screen vertices and triangles.
  • More complex usage involves something called Primitive Shaders, which allow the game to synthesize geometry on the fly as it’s being rendered.
  • Using Primitive Shaders on PS5 will allow for a board variety of techniques including smoothly varying level of detail, addition of procedural detail to close up objects and improvements to practical effects and other visual practical effects.
In terms of Machine Learning what have the XBSX done?
PlayStation 5 and Machine Learning: An Analysis

PS5 is already putting Machine Learning to use.
Practical Application of Machine Learning by Insomniac Games

The final evidence that PS5 fully supports Machine Learning on a hardware level surfaced when Insomniac patched Spider-Man Miles Morales on PS5 with physically-based muscle and costume deformations in real-time. (Example)

Josh Dicarlo (Lead Character Technical Director at Insomniac) later confirmed this tech is ML based. He later also confirmed that all the ML inference is being done on the PS5 hardware in real time.

ZivaRT is unlocking a new tier of AAA game characters using powerful machine learning.

Even the Chief Studio Officer from EA is seeing some uses for Machine Learning.
Exclusive: A Deeper Look at the PlayStation 5
  • "More generally, we’re seeing the GPU be able to power machine learning for all sorts of really interesting advancements in the gameplay and other tools," says Laura Miele, chief studio officer for EA.

SFS doesn't hold a candle to the PS5 RAM management.
I don't even have to go into detail why.



But I'm going to leave you with this from Mark Cerny.
Transcribe - The Road to PS5 - Mark Cerny's a deep dive into the PlayStation 5 -
So when I talked about the dream of an SSD. Part of the reason for that 5 gigabytes a second target was to eliminate loads, but also part of the reason for that target was streaming. As in what if the SSD is so fast that as the player is turning around. It's possible to load textures for everything behind the player in that split second.

f:id:keepitreal:20200329135313j:plain


If you figure that it takes half a second to turn that's 4GB of compressed data you can load that sounds about right for next gen.


About VRS.
The Geometry Engine needs VRS by design. It's one of the Geometry Engine features, except it goes further by removing off-screen vertices and triangles.
PS5 Has VRS, Confirms Activision Lead Artist

And bragging about VRR is irrelevant at this point, especially with the recent TVs VRR update. Except that it's available now on XBSX, while it's coming to PS5 in a future update.
PS5: The Ultimate FAQ
Does PS5 support VRR?
PS5 hardware supports Variable Refresh Rate (VRR) through HDMI 2.1. After a future system software update, PS5 owners will be able to use the VRR feature of compatible TVs when playing games that support VRR.

Only thing the XBSX has on PS5 is 16 more CUs, which is being trumped by higher clocks.

Both consoles are a next-gen leap compared to the previous gen. No need to downplay PS5's capabilities.
 
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lepermessiah

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Don't know what the hubub really is all about, to me it just seems that it's all depending on the engine. Some engines will gell better with thicc and slow while others fast and narrow. Don't think this has much parallel heavy duty going on.

I'll probably go and ask the dev how they like it because I know Phil likes it thicc and slow. I'm gentle with his specular highlights though, he's particular about those! 🥰
 

onQ123

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My takeaway is that the game confirmed that PS5 can render at 8K & it did it at a solid 60fps with higher settings than what was used in the game on other devices so this game isn't the limit of what can be ran at 8K.

Gaming biggest hits are being played on Smartphones , Tablets & Switch plus some of the biggest games of last generation had simple graphics so there is a market for these simple looking games that can be ran at 8K on the new consoles.
 

onQ123

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This is actually the biggest resolution jump from one generation to the next in console history.
This game is being rendered at a resolution 16X higher on PS5 than it is on PS4. This is like going from a 2MP camera to a 33MP camera.
This is a big enough leap in resolution for devs to rethink the way they create some games.
 

SenjutsuSage

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Developers can use VRR, there was one game I think it was A Plagues Tale but I'm not 100% on that, where they unlocked the framerate and let it run above the 60fps cap if they detected a VRR set, DF said that was noticeably smoother than a locked 60fps.
More developers should do this.

Holy shit, that's actually pretty fucking clever. I never thought about that. I didn't think devs could actively manipulate the presence of VRR like that!!
 
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yewles1

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This is actually the biggest resolution jump from one generation to the next in console history.
This game is being rendered at a resolution 16X higher on PS5 than it is on PS4. This is like going from a 2MP camera to a 33MP camera.
This is a big enough leap in resolution for devs to rethink the way they create some games.
But WILL they?...
 

Xenon

Member
Do you honestly think anyone has bought this game? LOL. No they just want to console war over a game that has been on Switch and XSX for ages and no one played then. But now it's 8k, OMG best game ever! /s

Yeah most bizarre flex thread ever. Having finished the game, I don't see how anyone could be that excited of an INTERNAL resolution for a game with a blockish art style.
 
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Connxtion

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Holy shit, that's actually pretty fucking clever. I never thought about that. I didn't think devs could actively manipulate the presence of VRR like that!!
They can’t they just unlock the frame-rate when in 120hz mode. As there is no hardware to check if VRR is enabled or not.

It’s how flight sim works.
 

SenjutsuSage

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Senjusausage always pretends to be a neutral poster when he’s been team green. I was reading why he got permed on Era. Hilarious reason actually considering everything we know and have seen now and after everything Mark fucking Cerny said on the road to PS5. He seems like one of the PS5 is RDNA 1.5 9TF types.

Senjutsausage​

senjutsusage

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I actually believe they are and suspect sony knows it. I'd love to be proven wrong. I'm going to own a PS5, too, but I don't believe them on hardware ray tracing.

Actually, hate to be the bearer of bad news, but resetera moderation has no credibility, here or anywhere. If it did, half this forum would be permanently banned already.

Next, I was guilty of absolutely zero trolling or console warring, unless console warring by your definition was telling them the Series X had the stronger hardware, regularly disagreeing with and calling out their fake insiders, klee, tommy, etc. (remember them? they would be upset that I pointed out their ps5 claims were wrong) or speaking up when I told them the github leak accurately described the PS5's GPU layout, which it did, 36 CUs was accurate. Matt made a post claiming it was false then later did another suggesting the github merely "didn't mean anything" but they went back and deleted his post where he said the PS5 did not have 36 CUs, that it had more. That's the real reason for my ban, I was the one saying that they did that. They deleted my posts where I was saying it too cause they knew I caught their asses doing it. Without my permanent ban they knew I would have kept saying it, so the only way to shut me up around that time was to permanently ban me. All you are seeing is the redirection from the true reason for my perm ban. :messenger_tears_of_joy:

As far as me doubting hardware ray tracing on the PS5, I did that exact same thing here, and I'm confident there are posts that show me doing it. I felt that Sony were behaving strangely on the subject, seemingly not highlighting it as much as Microsoft were, which made me have doubts. Even some of you if you're being honest found Sony's messaging strange early last year on stage when they skipped past and failed to mention hardware accelerated ray tracing despite it being on the slide. Beyond that, what real trolls leave out is the detail of me stating even back then that seeing it appear in a shipping PS5 game would be all it would take for me to admit I was wrong. And when that time did come, I admitted I was wrong, completely owned my mistake in doubting it in the first place, and did so here and on twitter. So I can admit when I'm wrong, unlike some people.

Github left out some information, such as on Ray Tracing, but it was correct in a couple of places. It was absolutely correct on no hardware VRS. The PS5 GPU really is a chip without all RDNA 2 graphics hardware features like the Series X. Not just no Tier 2 VRS, but no Mesh Shaders, No hardware accelerated Machine Learning and no Sampler Feedback. This brings us back to the deleted posts scandal of the resetera mod staff. They saw having "insiders", even fake ones, as a way to grow their forum's popularity more like what gaf was at its height, so they were protective of anything that even remotely casted doubt on the credibility of their insiders and mods who pretended to know stuff. They would delete fake insider posts where they went too far and tripped themselves up by making claims about the PS5 and Series X that were proven totally false. I was drawing attention to this with evidence via my twitter at the time that they were actually deleting posts to hide the archived history of what was said. At that point they needed any excuse they could find to permaban me from the site itself as I was one of the few not afraid to challenge them. So desperate they were to attack my credibility (because of me pointing out they were deleting their posts) that they would ban entirely different people who were also bringing it up, and then claim publicly that it was an alt account belonging to me. One thing about me is I will never use an alt or be afraid to on accounts that make it crystal clear that it's me. And if I can't do so using the alias and same avatar under which people know me best, I won't even bother.

How quickly do we forget the hall of shame where many here, as well as on Resetera, even after Microsoft made it crystal clear that Series X was 12TFLOPs RDNA 2, many kept insisting that they were actually speaking of efficiency compared to GCN, and in reality it was probably more in the 8 or 9TFLOPs range. Many of you said it wasn't an ACTUAL 12TFLOPs. Forget all about that, did you? We got direct numbers, we got a common sense 2x the Xbox One X GPU statement, and still people were like "Nope! Efficiency gains over GCN, under 10TFLOPS for sure. If it were 12 TFLOPs Microsoft would be screaming it from the rooftops. They're not saying it because it isn't actually 12."

So we've been down this road before. Nice try on changing the subject though to an entirely different forum.
 

DenchDeckard

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Actually, hate to be the bearer of bad news, but resetera moderation has no credibility, here or anywhere. If it did, half this forum would be permanently banned already.

Next, I was guilty of absolutely zero trolling or console warring, unless console warring by your definition was telling them the Series X had the stronger hardware, regularly disagreeing with and calling out their fake insiders, klee, tommy, etc. (remember them? they would be upset that I pointed out their ps5 claims were wrong) or speaking up when I told them the github leak accurately described the PS5's GPU layout, which it did, 36 CUs was accurate. Matt made a post claiming it was false then later did another suggesting the github merely "didn't mean anything" but they went back and deleted his post where he said the PS5 did not have 36 CUs, that it had more. That's the real reason for my ban, I was the one saying that they did that. They deleted my posts where I was saying it too cause they knew I caught their asses doing it. Without my permanent ban they knew I would have kept saying it, so the only way to shut me up around that time was to permanently ban me. All you are seeing is the redirection from the true reason for my perm ban. :messenger_tears_of_joy:

As far as me doubting hardware ray tracing on the PS5, I did that exact same thing here, and I'm confident there are posts that show me doing it. I felt that Sony were behaving strangely on the subject, seemingly not highlighting it as much as Microsoft were, which made me have doubts. Even some of you if you're being honest found Sony's messaging strange early last year on stage when they skipped past and failed to mention hardware accelerated ray tracing despite it being on the slide. Beyond that, what real trolls leave out is the detail of me stating even back then that seeing it appear in a shipping PS5 game would be all it would take for me to admit I was wrong. And when that time did come, I admitted I was wrong, completely owned my mistake in doubting it in the first place, and did so here and on twitter. So I can admit when I'm wrong, unlike some people.

Github left out some information, such as on Ray Tracing, but it was correct in a couple of places. It was absolutely correct on no hardware VRS. The PS5 GPU really is a chip without all RDNA 2 graphics hardware features like the Series X. Not just no Tier 2 VRS, but no Mesh Shaders, No hardware accelerated Machine Learning and no Sampler Feedback. This brings us back to the deleted posts scandal of the resetera mod staff. They saw having "insiders", even fake ones, as a way to grow their forum's popularity more like what gaf was at its height, so they were protective of anything that even remotely casted doubt on the credibility of their insiders and mods who pretended to know stuff. They would delete fake insider posts where they went too far and tripped themselves up by making claims about the PS5 and Series X that were proven totally false. I was drawing attention to this with evidence via my twitter at the time that they were actually deleting posts to hide the archived history of what was said. At that point they needed any excuse they could find to permaban me from the site itself as I was one of the few not afraid to challenge them. So desperate they were to attack my credibility (because of me pointing out they were deleting their posts) that they would ban entirely different people who were also bringing it up, and then claim publicly that it was an alt account belonging to me. One thing about me is I will never use an alt or be afraid to on accounts that make it crystal clear that it's me. And if I can't do so using the alias and same avatar under which people know me best, I won't even bother.

How quickly do we forget the hall of shame where many here, as well as on Resetera, even after Microsoft made it crystal clear that Series X was 12TFLOPs RDNA 2, many kept insisting that they were actually speaking of efficiency compared to GCN, and in reality it was probably more in the 8 or 9TFLOPs range. Many of you said it wasn't an ACTUAL 12TFLOPs. Forget all about that, did you? We got direct numbers, we got a common sense 2x the Xbox One X GPU statement, and still people were like "Nope! Efficiency gains over GCN, under 10TFLOPS for sure. If it were 12 TFLOPs Microsoft would be screaming it from the rooftops. They're not saying it because it isn't actually 12."

So we've been down this road before. Nice try on changing the subject though to an entirely different forum.

this is a wall of text, but I actually read it. I just wanted to say I totally forgot about that last paragraph but thx for the trip down memory lane. haha
 
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Boglin

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Actually, hate to be the bearer of bad news, but resetera moderation has no credibility, here or anywhere. If it did, half this forum would be permanently banned already.

Next, I was guilty of absolutely zero trolling or console warring, unless console warring by your definition was telling them the Series X had the stronger hardware, regularly disagreeing with and calling out their fake insiders, klee, tommy, etc. (remember them? they would be upset that I pointed out their ps5 claims were wrong) or speaking up when I told them the github leak accurately described the PS5's GPU layout, which it did, 36 CUs was accurate. Matt made a post claiming it was false then later did another suggesting the github merely "didn't mean anything" but they went back and deleted his post where he said the PS5 did not have 36 CUs, that it had more. That's the real reason for my ban, I was the one saying that they did that. They deleted my posts where I was saying it too cause they knew I caught their asses doing it. Without my permanent ban they knew I would have kept saying it, so the only way to shut me up around that time was to permanently ban me. All you are seeing is the redirection from the true reason for my perm ban. :messenger_tears_of_joy:

As far as me doubting hardware ray tracing on the PS5, I did that exact same thing here, and I'm confident there are posts that show me doing it. I felt that Sony were behaving strangely on the subject, seemingly not highlighting it as much as Microsoft were, which made me have doubts. Even some of you if you're being honest found Sony's messaging strange early last year on stage when they skipped past and failed to mention hardware accelerated ray tracing despite it being on the slide. Beyond that, what real trolls leave out is the detail of me stating even back then that seeing it appear in a shipping PS5 game would be all it would take for me to admit I was wrong. And when that time did come, I admitted I was wrong, completely owned my mistake in doubting it in the first place, and did so here and on twitter. So I can admit when I'm wrong, unlike some people.

Github left out some information, such as on Ray Tracing, but it was correct in a couple of places. It was absolutely correct on no hardware VRS. The PS5 GPU really is a chip without all RDNA 2 graphics hardware features like the Series X. Not just no Tier 2 VRS, but no Mesh Shaders, No hardware accelerated Machine Learning and no Sampler Feedback. This brings us back to the deleted posts scandal of the resetera mod staff. They saw having "insiders", even fake ones, as a way to grow their forum's popularity more like what gaf was at its height, so they were protective of anything that even remotely casted doubt on the credibility of their insiders and mods who pretended to know stuff. They would delete fake insider posts where they went too far and tripped themselves up by making claims about the PS5 and Series X that were proven totally false. I was drawing attention to this with evidence via my twitter at the time that they were actually deleting posts to hide the archived history of what was said. At that point they needed any excuse they could find to permaban me from the site itself as I was one of the few not afraid to challenge them. So desperate they were to attack my credibility (because of me pointing out they were deleting their posts) that they would ban entirely different people who were also bringing it up, and then claim publicly that it was an alt account belonging to me. One thing about me is I will never use an alt or be afraid to on accounts that make it crystal clear that it's me. And if I can't do so using the alias and same avatar under which people know me best, I won't even bother.

How quickly do we forget the hall of shame where many here, as well as on Resetera, even after Microsoft made it crystal clear that Series X was 12TFLOPs RDNA 2, many kept insisting that they were actually speaking of efficiency compared to GCN, and in reality it was probably more in the 8 or 9TFLOPs range. Many of you said it wasn't an ACTUAL 12TFLOPs. Forget all about that, did you? We got direct numbers, we got a common sense 2x the Xbox One X GPU statement, and still people were like "Nope! Efficiency gains over GCN, under 10TFLOPS for sure. If it were 12 TFLOPs Microsoft would be screaming it from the rooftops. They're not saying it because it isn't actually 12."

So we've been down this road before. Nice try on changing the subject though to an entirely different forum.
Everyone who takes firm stances based on what isn't marketed, regardless of brand, is setting themselves up for a plate of crow.
Leading up to launch people made all sorts of ridiculous claims because they interpreted Sony's silence as an admission of some sort. The reality was people's biases made them confident it their own, made-up marketing rules.

Some paraphrased examples are "BC won't be ready on PS5 at launch because Sony hasn't shown it" , "the PS5 will be more expensive then Xbox because Sony didn't reveal the price soon after Microsoft did" , or "PS5 titles won't graphically compete with XSX otherwise Sony would be marketing their power more. There will be a large power gap that's clearly visible at launch."
 

assurdum

Gold Member
Aug 14, 2020
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Actually, hate to be the bearer of bad news, but resetera moderation has no credibility, here or anywhere. If it did, half this forum would be permanently banned already.

Next, I was guilty of absolutely zero trolling or console warring, unless console warring by your definition was telling them the Series X had the stronger hardware, regularly disagreeing with and calling out their fake insiders, klee, tommy, etc. (remember them? they would be upset that I pointed out their ps5 claims were wrong) or speaking up when I told them the github leak accurately described the PS5's GPU layout, which it did, 36 CUs was accurate. Matt made a post claiming it was false then later did another suggesting the github merely "didn't mean anything" but they went back and deleted his post where he said the PS5 did not have 36 CUs, that it had more. That's the real reason for my ban, I was the one saying that they did that. They deleted my posts where I was saying it too cause they knew I caught their asses doing it. Without my permanent ban they knew I would have kept saying it, so the only way to shut me up around that time was to permanently ban me. All you are seeing is the redirection from the true reason for my perm ban. :messenger_tears_of_joy:

As far as me doubting hardware ray tracing on the PS5, I did that exact same thing here, and I'm confident there are posts that show me doing it. I felt that Sony were behaving strangely on the subject, seemingly not highlighting it as much as Microsoft were, which made me have doubts. Even some of you if you're being honest found Sony's messaging strange early last year on stage when they skipped past and failed to mention hardware accelerated ray tracing despite it being on the slide. Beyond that, what real trolls leave out is the detail of me stating even back then that seeing it appear in a shipping PS5 game would be all it would take for me to admit I was wrong. And when that time did come, I admitted I was wrong, completely owned my mistake in doubting it in the first place, and did so here and on twitter. So I can admit when I'm wrong, unlike some people.

Github left out some information, such as on Ray Tracing, but it was correct in a couple of places. It was absolutely correct on no hardware VRS. The PS5 GPU really is a chip without all RDNA 2 graphics hardware features like the Series X. Not just no Tier 2 VRS, but no Mesh Shaders, No hardware accelerated Machine Learning and no Sampler Feedback. This brings us back to the deleted posts scandal of the resetera mod staff. They saw having "insiders", even fake ones, as a way to grow their forum's popularity more like what gaf was at its height, so they were protective of anything that even remotely casted doubt on the credibility of their insiders and mods who pretended to know stuff. They would delete fake insider posts where they went too far and tripped themselves up by making claims about the PS5 and Series X that were proven totally false. I was drawing attention to this with evidence via my twitter at the time that they were actually deleting posts to hide the archived history of what was said. At that point they needed any excuse they could find to permaban me from the site itself as I was one of the few not afraid to challenge them. So desperate they were to attack my credibility (because of me pointing out they were deleting their posts) that they would ban entirely different people who were also bringing it up, and then claim publicly that it was an alt account belonging to me. One thing about me is I will never use an alt or be afraid to on accounts that make it crystal clear that it's me. And if I can't do so using the alias and same avatar under which people know me best, I won't even bother.

How quickly do we forget the hall of shame where many here, as well as on Resetera, even after Microsoft made it crystal clear that Series X was 12TFLOPs RDNA 2, many kept insisting that they were actually speaking of efficiency compared to GCN, and in reality it was probably more in the 8 or 9TFLOPs range. Many of you said it wasn't an ACTUAL 12TFLOPs. Forget all about that, did you? We got direct numbers, we got a common sense 2x the Xbox One X GPU statement, and still people were like "Nope! Efficiency gains over GCN, under 10TFLOPS for sure. If it were 12 TFLOPs Microsoft would be screaming it from the rooftops. They're not saying it because it isn't actually 12."

So we've been down this road before. Nice try on changing the subject though to an entirely different forum.
This post is comedy gold. It's not only Resetera moderation who laugh about your consideration of the supposed "hardware gap" expectable between the 2 consoles. Twitter is full about it and it happened even not too much time ago with different tech passionate.
 
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SenjutsuSage

Member
Jan 23, 2010
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Everyone who takes firm stances based on what isn't marketed, regardless of brand, is setting themselves up for a plate of crow.
Leading up to launch people made all sorts of ridiculous claims because they interpreted Sony's silence as an admission of some sort. The reality was people's biases made them confident it their own, made-up marketing rules.

Some paraphrased examples are "BC won't be ready on PS5 at launch because Sony hasn't shown it" , "the PS5 will be more expensive then Xbox because Sony didn't reveal the price soon after Microsoft did" , or "PS5 titles won't graphically compete with XSX otherwise Sony would be marketing their power more. There will be a large power gap that's clearly visible at launch."

Thankfully I never suggested PS5 wouldn't graphically compete, because I knew that would be nonsense. It's impossible for it to not graphically compete because they're too generationally close for PS5 to not compete graphically. PS5 can have graphically superior games because that fact isn't down to the hardware specs alone. That's budget, resources, team, talent, time, art direction. Even Xbox One and PS4 competed graphically. Ryse at launch showcased that the right studio could make Xbox One sing. Quantum Break on OG Xbox One is still impressive to this dfay. When I said Series X would be more powerful and prove it, I was always referring to in pure absolute performance, which would more normally appear in resolution in relatively similar looking games because the two pieces of hardware are capable of producing visually identical graphics. It's just one would be able to do it at a higher resolution because of the extra performance grunt, or the additional advanced features to help with utilizing the available power more effectively or cleverly. I'm still a big believer in the fact that Series X has a higher ceiling than PS5 due to the possibility of Machine Learning (if that ever turns into any kind of reality and we are getting legitimately great machine learning resolution scaling), Mesh Shaders and Sampler Feedback Streaming. Of all of these, I continue to have the greatest amount of faith in Sampler Feedback Streaming's RAM efficiency benefits. Mesh Shaders is a wait and see and so is machine learning for me.

I also never said PS5 would be more expensive. I totally expected Xbox would be more expensive. I also never said BC wouldn't be ready on PS5, just that BC support on Xbox would be superior, and it almost certainly is. I know you aren't saying I specifically said these, but those kinds of things were definitely said. I actually totally expected PS5 to be the cheaper system of the two, didn't expect them to be identically priced.
 

SenjutsuSage

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Jan 23, 2010
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This post is comedy gold. It's not only Resetera moderation who laugh at you about your consideration of the supposed "hardware gap" expectable between the 2 consoles. Twitter is full about it and it happened even not too much time ago.

Up to 60% 70% pixel count advantages, even 100% pixel resolution advantages in Avengers performance mode with identical fps performance isn't enough for you? It's not supposed anymore if there are games where it's actually happening. Doom Eternal is another example, though not as massive as in Avengers.

PS5 Checkerboard 4K in avengers 60fps mode = 1920x2160
Series X in Avengers hits Native 4K = 3840x2160

Those two resolutions are 100% apart in pixel counts. The advantage will often be less than that because I acknowledge what VGTech said, that the Series X more often scaled down from native 4K than did the PS5 from its checkerboard 4K, but both consoles scale. At worst following VGTech's pixel counts, Series X's lowest native resolution is still 62% higher than PS5's lowest checkerboard resolution. This "supposed hardware gap" seems pretty damn actual in some games already. There's a reason you're still pretending you can't see that the PS5 version of Far Cry 6 is visibly not as sharp as the Series X version when we all know that you can.


If depending on dynamic resolution scaling the Series X can have anywhere from a 60% or 70% advantage all the way up to 100% in resolution going from DF's count and VGTech's count at any given moment, don't you think it's kinda amazing that Series X still keeps so closely up to pace with PS5 performance? Pushing that many more pixels, and yet PS5 has a less than 0.20% advantage at maintaining 60fps. That's demonstrating a hardware gap. It's why some need to cling to this game. You can clearly see differences in the touryst, but are completely blind as a bat in Far Cry 6?

Sure Jan GIF
 
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Loxus

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Actually, hate to be the bearer of bad news, but resetera moderation has no credibility, here or anywhere. If it did, half this forum would be permanently banned already.

Next, I was guilty of absolutely zero trolling or console warring, unless console warring by your definition was telling them the Series X had the stronger hardware, regularly disagreeing with and calling out their fake insiders, klee, tommy, etc. (remember them? they would be upset that I pointed out their ps5 claims were wrong) or speaking up when I told them the github leak accurately described the PS5's GPU layout, which it did, 36 CUs was accurate. Matt made a post claiming it was false then later did another suggesting the github merely "didn't mean anything" but they went back and deleted his post where he said the PS5 did not have 36 CUs, that it had more. That's the real reason for my ban, I was the one saying that they did that. They deleted my posts where I was saying it too cause they knew I caught their asses doing it. Without my permanent ban they knew I would have kept saying it, so the only way to shut me up around that time was to permanently ban me. All you are seeing is the redirection from the true reason for my perm ban. :messenger_tears_of_joy:

As far as me doubting hardware ray tracing on the PS5, I did that exact same thing here, and I'm confident there are posts that show me doing it. I felt that Sony were behaving strangely on the subject, seemingly not highlighting it as much as Microsoft were, which made me have doubts. Even some of you if you're being honest found Sony's messaging strange early last year on stage when they skipped past and failed to mention hardware accelerated ray tracing despite it being on the slide. Beyond that, what real trolls leave out is the detail of me stating even back then that seeing it appear in a shipping PS5 game would be all it would take for me to admit I was wrong. And when that time did come, I admitted I was wrong, completely owned my mistake in doubting it in the first place, and did so here and on twitter. So I can admit when I'm wrong, unlike some people.

Github left out some information, such as on Ray Tracing, but it was correct in a couple of places. It was absolutely correct on no hardware VRS. The PS5 GPU really is a chip without all RDNA 2 graphics hardware features like the Series X. Not just no Tier 2 VRS, but no Mesh Shaders, No hardware accelerated Machine Learning and no Sampler Feedback. This brings us back to the deleted posts scandal of the resetera mod staff. They saw having "insiders", even fake ones, as a way to grow their forum's popularity more like what gaf was at its height, so they were protective of anything that even remotely casted doubt on the credibility of their insiders and mods who pretended to know stuff. They would delete fake insider posts where they went too far and tripped themselves up by making claims about the PS5 and Series X that were proven totally false. I was drawing attention to this with evidence via my twitter at the time that they were actually deleting posts to hide the archived history of what was said. At that point they needed any excuse they could find to permaban me from the site itself as I was one of the few not afraid to challenge them. So desperate they were to attack my credibility (because of me pointing out they were deleting their posts) that they would ban entirely different people who were also bringing it up, and then claim publicly that it was an alt account belonging to me. One thing about me is I will never use an alt or be afraid to on accounts that make it crystal clear that it's me. And if I can't do so using the alias and same avatar under which people know me best, I won't even bother.

How quickly do we forget the hall of shame where many here, as well as on Resetera, even after Microsoft made it crystal clear that Series X was 12TFLOPs RDNA 2, many kept insisting that they were actually speaking of efficiency compared to GCN, and in reality it was probably more in the 8 or 9TFLOPs range. Many of you said it wasn't an ACTUAL 12TFLOPs. Forget all about that, did you? We got direct numbers, we got a common sense 2x the Xbox One X GPU statement, and still people were like "Nope! Efficiency gains over GCN, under 10TFLOPS for sure. If it were 12 TFLOPs Microsoft would be screaming it from the rooftops. They're not saying it because it isn't actually 12."

So we've been down this road before. Nice try on changing the subject though to an entirely different forum.
With a post like this, no wonder you got ban.

Only thing Github leak got right was 36CUs. Github is more like Backwards Compatibility test, which is why you don't see those features. Because PS4/Pro doesn't support those features.

Most of everything about the PS5's hardware specs is in The Road To PS5. Obviously some specs aren't talked about, because the developer doesn't need to now them and you want to keep some things secret.

Clearly Sony doesn't use marketing names for their PS5 features like Velocity Architecture, it's just SSD and I/O unit. All those names are Microsoft giving fancy names to their DirectX 12 Ultimate API features. Why would Sony use DirectX names on their PS5? Especially since they don't even use DirectX API.

It clearly does RT and has more RT games than XBSX.

VRS and Mesh Shaders are apart of the Geometry Engine capabilities.

Machine Learning is done by the GPU, which makes it hardware accelerated. It actually has a game using machine learning, which XBSX does not.

PS5 doesn't need to load portions of textures to save memory resources (SFS) because it can drop and load 4GB of data in half a second. A matter of fact, you don't even know if the PS5 has a similar solution.

The PS5 is confirm to be RDNA 2 by AMD themselves.

Teraflops is defined as the computational capability of the vector ALU. That's just one part of the GPU, there are a lot of other units and those other units all run faster when the GPU frequency is higher.

Both these consoles are design different, so there method to achieve the same features will be different and so will be the names of some of those features.


I don't know why you want the PS5 to fail so badly.
 
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SenjutsuSage

Member
Jan 23, 2010
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With a post like this, no wonder you got ban.

Only thing Github leak got right was 36CUs. Github is more like Backwards Compatibility test, which is why you don't see those features. Because PS4/Pro doesn't support those features.

Most of everything about the PS5's hardware specs is in The Road To PS5. Obviously some specs aren't talked about, because the developer doesn't need to now them and you want to keep some things secret.

Clearly Sony doesn't use marketing names for their PS5 features like Velocity Architecture, it's just SSD and I/O unit. All those names are Microsoft giving fancy names to their DirectX 12 Ultimate API features. Why would Sony use DirectX names on their PS5? Especially since they don't even use DirectX API.

It clearly does RT and has more RT games than XBSX.

VRS and Mesh Shaders are apart of the Geometry Engine capabilities.

Machine Learning is done by the GPU, which makes it hardware accelerated. It actually has a game using machine learning, which XBSX does not.

PS5 doesn't need to load portions of textures to save memory resources (SFS) because it can drop and load 4GB of data in half a second. A matter of fact, you don't even know if the PS5 has a similar solution.

The PS5 is confirm to be RDNA 2 by AMD themselves.

Teraflops is defined as the computational capability of the vector ALU. That's just one part of the GPU, there are a lot of other units and those other units all run faster when the GPU frequency is higher.

Both these consoles are design different, so there method to achieve the same features will be different and so will be the names of some of those features.


I don't know why you want the PS5 to fail so badly.

I have contributed to the PS5's success because I bought 5 of them bitches. 5. 1 for myself. So, drop that silliness about me wanting it to fail.

Stop saying VRS is in the Geometry Engine. IT IS NOT. This has been confirmed PS5 does not have hardware VRS. The geometry engine has nothing to do with VRS. The ROPs do. Jesus...

PS5 has primitive shaders, which was part of RDNA 1's geometry engine also. PS5 does not support Mesh Shaders.

Xbox Series X's GPU has Compute Units with hardware capabilities which accelerate machine learning operations Int 8 and Int 4. PS5 does not have this.

Spider-Man's use of machine learning is based on an offline, not real-time, system that did the calculations in advance, and then just put them in the game. Series X has actual cores properly designed for machine learning that utilizes Int 8 and Int 4. PS5 does not have this.

PS5 is based on RDNA 2, yes, but it is missing many hardware graphics features of the architecture.

And see what you just said about the PS5 loading and unloading 4GB in half a second? Series X with SFS wouldn't ever need to load that 4GB in the first place. With SFS on Series X that 4GB equivalent would be 1.6GB instead. So no matter how you slice it, the Series X with SFS would be saved from doing unnecessary work that the PS5 is. The PS5 supports PRT, but it doesn't support Sampler Feedback, which is where the memory savings comes from due to the level of accuracy in knowing what's needed.

Rest I'm too tired to address. Going to go hang out with my lady friend, and by lady friend I obviously mean my PC or videogame console.

Guardians Of The Galaxy Wink GIF
 
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Arioco

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Jun 23, 2013
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Spider-Man's use of machine learning is based on an offline, not real-time, system that did the calculations in advance, and then just put them in the game. Series X has actual cores properly designed for machine learning that utilizes Int 8 and Int 4. PS5 does not have this.


That's just not true, or at least not what Insomniac said about this technology. Besides, If you were right about that the ML muscle deformation would've come to the PS4 version of Miles Morales. Spoiler: it hasn't.


[


 
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onQ123

Member
May 1, 2010
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With a post like this, no wonder you got ban.

Only thing Github leak got right was 36CUs. Github is more like Backwards Compatibility test, which is why you don't see those features. Because PS4/Pro doesn't support those features.

Most of everything about the PS5's hardware specs is in The Road To PS5. Obviously some specs aren't talked about, because the developer doesn't need to now them and you want to keep some things secret.

Clearly Sony doesn't use marketing names for their PS5 features like Velocity Architecture, it's just SSD and I/O unit. All those names are Microsoft giving fancy names to their DirectX 12 Ultimate API features. Why would Sony use DirectX names on their PS5? Especially since they don't even use DirectX API.

It clearly does RT and has more RT games than XBSX.

VRS and Mesh Shaders are apart of the Geometry Engine capabilities.

Machine Learning is done by the GPU, which makes it hardware accelerated. It actually has a game using machine learning, which XBSX does not.

PS5 doesn't need to load portions of textures to save memory resources (SFS) because it can drop and load 4GB of data in half a second. A matter of fact, you don't even know if the PS5 has a similar solution.

The PS5 is confirm to be RDNA 2 by AMD themselves.

Teraflops is defined as the computational capability of the vector ALU. That's just one part of the GPU, there are a lot of other units and those other units all run faster when the GPU frequency is higher.

Both these consoles are design different, so there method to achieve the same features will be different and so will be the names of some of those features.


I don't know why you want the PS5 to fail so badly.

Am I tripping or does that show PS5 with 72 Color ROPS 288 Depth ROPS , Xbox Series X 64 Color ROPS 128 Depth ROPS ?
 

onQ123

Member
May 1, 2010
17,977
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I have contributed to the PS5's success because I bought 5 of them bitches. 5. 1 for myself. So, drop that silliness about me wanting it to fail.

Stop saying VRS is in the Geometry Engine. IT IS NOT. This has been confirmed PS5 does not have hardware VRS. The geometry engine has nothing to do with VRS. The ROPs do. Jesus...

PS5 has primitive shaders, which was part of RDNA 1's geometry engine also. PS5 does not support Mesh Shaders.

Xbox Series X's GPU has Compute Units with hardware capabilities which accelerate machine learning operations Int 8 and Int 4. PS5 does not have this.

Spider-Man's use of machine learning is based on an offline, not real-time, system that did the calculations in advance, and then just put them in the game. Series X has actual cores properly designed for machine learning that utilizes Int 8 and Int 4. PS5 does not have this.

PS5 is based on RDNA 2, yes, but it is missing many hardware graphics features of the architecture.

And see what you just said about the PS5 loading and unloading 4GB in half a second? Series X with SFS wouldn't ever need to load that 4GB in the first place. With SFS on Series X that 4GB equivalent would be 1.6GB instead. So no matter how you slice it, the Series X with SFS would be saved from doing unnecessary work that the PS5 is. The PS5 supports PRT, but it doesn't support Sampler Feedback, which is where the memory savings comes from due to the level of accuracy in knowing what's needed.

Rest I'm too tired to address. Going to go hang out with my lady friend, and by lady friend I obviously mean my PC or videogame console.

Guardians Of The Galaxy Wink GIF

You don't understand ML do you?
 
Mar 27, 2020
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Uncharted bunghole
I measured VRAM usage at 8K on the PC version, but it didn't consume 10GB.
Therefore, it is unlikely that the XBOX SX will run out of VRAM.

4K

8K

He did mention the memory though. So there must have been something going on there.

"Shin'en tells us that in the case of its engine, the increase to clock frequencies and the difference in memory set-up makes the difference."

The only thing is that split memory setup on the XSX. But if that isn't the problem I have no idea what is.

Edit: I know you mentioned VRAM bit what about the ram the CPU uses? Although I highly doubt the CPU needs more than 6GBs of ram (OS and the game combined).

P.S I'm just assuming the devs were honest with their answer here. There's always a possibility that they are lying.
 
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Loxus

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I have contributed to the PS5's success because I bought 5 of them bitches. 5. 1 for myself. So, drop that silliness about me wanting it to fail.

Stop saying VRS is in the Geometry Engine. IT IS NOT. This has been confirmed PS5 does not have hardware VRS. The geometry engine has nothing to do with VRS. The ROPs do. Jesus...

PS5 has primitive shaders, which was part of RDNA 1's geometry engine also. PS5 does not support Mesh Shaders.

Xbox Series X's GPU has Compute Units with hardware capabilities which accelerate machine learning operations Int 8 and Int 4. PS5 does not have this.

Spider-Man's use of machine learning is based on an offline, not real-time, system that did the calculations in advance, and then just put them in the game. Series X has actual cores properly designed for machine learning that utilizes Int 8 and Int 4. PS5 does not have this.

PS5 is based on RDNA 2, yes, but it is missing many hardware graphics features of the architecture.

And see what you just said about the PS5 loading and unloading 4GB in half a second? Series X with SFS wouldn't ever need to load that 4GB in the first place. With SFS on Series X that 4GB equivalent would be 1.6GB instead. So no matter how you slice it, the Series X with SFS would be saved from doing unnecessary work that the PS5 is. The PS5 supports PRT, but it doesn't support Sampler Feedback, which is where the memory savings comes from due to the level of accuracy in knowing what's needed.

Rest I'm too tired to address. Going to go hang out with my lady friend, and by lady friend I obviously mean my PC or videogame console.

Guardians Of The Galaxy Wink GIF
Clearly your hatred of the PS5 is so high, that you refuse to believe the PS5 has these futures even though Mark Cerny and developers confirm them.

Even though I know you going to dismiss everything below, other well see and avoid your misinformation.

Ever heard of Unified shader model?
Unified shader model refers to a form of shader hardware in a graphical processing unit (GPU) where all of the shader stages in the rendering pipeline (geometry, vertex, pixel, etc.) have the same capabilities. They can all read textures and buffers, and they use instruction sets that are almost identical.

Also, check this out. Clearly this suggest Mesh Shaders and VRS are related.
Variable Rate Shading

Remark I​

The MeshShaderPerPrimitiveShadingRateSupported cap was added in a Windows release after the initial release of variable rate shading went out. With this in mind, the runtime does not strictly validate setting of MS per-primitive shading rates against the cap because that could mean an application-breaking change. Instead, SDK layers produces a softer-than-error message if the application tries to set a per-primitive shading rate from MS but the cap does not permit it.


PS5 Has VRS, Confirms Activision Lead Artist
The lead artist from Activision pointed out how VRS will help developers create systems that can procedurally generate higher quality assets on the next-generation PlayStation 4 successor. He also noted how the new Geometry Engine (GE) block of the RDNA 2 technology needs VRS by design.

PlayStation 5 houses “a custom AMD GPU based on their RDNA 2 technology,” according to system architect Mark Cerny. GE, part of RDNA 2, offers developers unparalleled control over triangles and other primitives, and easy optimisation for geometry culling. Hence, as the lead artist from Activision pointed out above, both are necessary parts of the same equation.


Not to mention these patents that are very likely in PS5.
Patents by Inventor Mark Evan Cerny





Primitive and Mesh shaders
Circa 2017, the AMD Vega microarchitecture added support for a new shader stage – primitive shaders – somewhat akin to compute shaders with access to the data necessary to process geometry. Similarly, Nvidia introduced mesh and task shaders with its Turing microarchitecture in 2018 which provide similar functionality and like AMD's primitive shaders are also modelled after compute shaders.

Mesh shaders will expand the capabilities and performance of the geometry pipeline. Mesh shaders incorporate the features of Vertex and Geometry shaders into a single shader stage through batch processing of primitives and vertices data before the rasterizer. The shaders are also capable of amplifying and culling geometry.


Here are a few points about PS5's Geometry Engine.


  • A new block that will give developers more control over triangles, primitives and geometry culling.
  • Removing back faced or off-screen vertices and triangles.
  • More complex usage involves something called Primitive Shaders, which allow the game to synthesize geometry on the fly as it’s being rendered.
  • Using Primitive Shaders on PS5 will allow for a board variety of techniques including smoothly varying level of detail, addition of procedural detail to close up objects and improvements to practical effects and other visual practical effects.

Machine Learning capabilities.
PlayStation 5 and Machine Learning: An Analysis
What are the ML capabilities in Xbox Series X?

First, it is important to understand how Xbox is defining ML in Xbox Series X. Unlike Nvidia's Turing GPU cards, neither XSX nor the PS5 has any dedicated hardware for Machine Learning.

Xbox Series X supports 8-bit and 4-bit integer operations for inference algorithms, as per the official spec sheet. So, neither console has dedicated hardware for ML. It's all done on the GPU.

RDNA 2 and RDNA 1.1 Support Machine Learning

Both PS5 and Xbox Series X's GPUs are based on RDNA 2 architecture. And we know that RDNA 2 (and even RDNA 1.1) supports Int4 and Int8 operations.

This is the same thing that Xbox advertised with Series X. There is no reason to assume that Sony specifically took out the ML feature. That'd be needless.

You can learn more about RDNA and ML in this AMD whitepaper.

ML Differences Between Xbox Series X and PS5

We don't know much about the differences if any. However, there is one difference b/w the two consoles, i.e., DirectML.

DirectML is Microsoft's proprietary API, just like DirectX Raytracing (DXR). PC GPUs will also be using DirectML. However, just like ray-tracing, Sony will have its own proprietary API for Machine Learning.

Note that DirectML is an API, and it does not refer to the hardware.

Practical Application of Machine Learning by Insomniac Games

The final evidence that PS5 fully supports Machine Learning on a hardware level surfaced when Insomniac patched Spider-Man Miles Morales on PS5 with physically-based muscle and costume deformations in real-time. (Example)

After the patch, there were some doubts that this is just a software-based application. And the inference is not done on the PS5 hardware, because PS5 lacks hardware-level support for ML.

But this was later clarified.

Josh Dicarlo (Lead Character Technical Director at Insomniac) later confirmed this tech is ML based. He later also confirmed that all the ML inference is being done on the PS5 hardware in real time.



What SFS does.
Xbox Series X’s Sampler Feedback Streaming Is “An Absolute Game-Changer,” Says Developer
Feedback Streaming allows the console to only load in textures and assets that are only needed in a game at that moment rather than having significantly more of them loaded in in the background just in case they’re needed, which means a lot of space and memory are freed up for the CPU to focus on other things.

What the PS5 does.
Transcribe - The Road to PS5 - Mark Cerny's a deep dive into the PlayStation 5 -
On PlayStation 5 though the SSD is very close to being like more RAM.

f:id:keepitreal:20200329140011j:plain


Typically it's fast enough that when you realize you need a piece of data you can just load it from the SSD and use it there's no need to have lots of data parked in system memory waiting to potentially be used.

A different way of saying that is that most of Ram is working on the game's behalf.
 

Loxus

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He did mention the memory though. So there must have been something going on there.



The only thing is that split memory setup on the XSX. But if that isn't the problem I have no idea what is.

Edit: I know you mentioned VRAM bit what about the ram the CPU uses? Although I highly doubt the CPU needs more than 6GBs of ram (OS and the game combined).

P.S I'm just assuming the devs were honest with their answer here. There's always a possibility that they are lying.
Memory setup could also mean,
Storage --> RAM.

I was wondering if decompression textures directly from storage into RAM that large is the problem.

I have to do some more research before coming to that conclusion.
 
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yewles1

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Memory setup could also mean,
Storage --> RAM.

I was wondering if decompression textures directly from storage into RAM that large is the problem.

I have to do some more research before coming to that conclusion.
Didn't Insomniac talk to DF about complete asset streaming from the SSD in R&C that people misconstrued as mere frustum culling?
 

onQ123

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I measured VRAM usage at 8K on the PC version, but it didn't consume 10GB.
Therefore, it is unlikely that the XBOX SX will run out of VRAM.

4K

8K


I think it comes down to Xbox Series X having half the depth ROPS & lower clock rate for the color ROPS because PS5 kinda flexed with better shadows & depth of field after rendering at almost 2X the resolution of Xbox Series X.
 

sinnergy

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This thread still going about this indie game 🤣 must be a games drought on PS5, or shitty weather that’s keeping people inside ..
 
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onQ123

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This thread still going about this indie game 🤣 must be a games drought on PS5, or shitty weather that’s keeping people inside ..

This game is 8K on PS5 but 6K on Xbox Series X it's a simple game but because it is simple it's not compute limited so it's putting the fix function pipeline to the test.


It's rendered at almost 2X higher than it is on Xbox Series X .



AMD RX 6800 with 60 CUs has 96 ROPS designed the way Xbox Series X Render Backends are setup ( 96 Color ROPS 192 Depth ROPS)

Series X ( 64 Color ROPS 128 Depth ROPS)

PS5 from looking at the die shot ( 72 Color ROPS 288 Depth ROPS) + the higher clock rate
 
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DenchDeckard

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This thread is full steam going now. Some of these posts are legendary, before the consoles launched types of rants. People feeling like they have a true technical knowledge of the inside and outs of these systems.

Can we all just let it go. There is consistent evidence each few weeks of how these are performing.

Xbox started rough, tools joke was made...xbox improved tools and games like control ended up running better on xbox.

Newer games are launching with the exact differences we expect. Between 10 to 30 percent more pixels being rendered on the same scenes. With sometimes a more steadier fps on ps5 due to the speed the gpu is operating.

Sony ssd is performing faster than xbox and in some freak circumstances...like this 2 year old indie game they are pushing 8k vs 6k once the game has been rebuilt from the ground up for the ps5.

The true test is, we don't really have any true only built for next gen games and with sonys new stance on pc and Jim's dream of not liking consoles, wanting games everywhere we may never see a game built from Cernys dreams of fully utilising the ps5s custom io. I personally find that a shame.

I don't think we will see next gen games ever again. The next gen will still be latched to ps5 and series x. Etc.

So let's just try and enjoy the games?

Like many have said, these machines have never been closer...they are literally a cocks hair between them. 10 vs 12 it's next to nothing as the evidence is showing us.
 
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assurdum

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Up to 60% 70% pixel count advantages, even 100% pixel resolution advantages in Avengers performance mode with identical fps performance isn't enough for you? It's not supposed anymore if there are games where it's actually happening. Doom Eternal is another example, though not as massive as in Avengers.

PS5 Checkerboard 4K in avengers 60fps mode = 1920x2160
Series X in Avengers hits Native 4K = 3840x2160

Those two resolutions are 100% apart in pixel counts. The advantage will often be less than that because I acknowledge what VGTech said, that the Series X more often scaled down from native 4K than did the PS5 from its checkerboard 4K, but both consoles scale. At worst following VGTech's pixel counts, Series X's lowest native resolution is still 62% higher than PS5's lowest checkerboard resolution. This "supposed hardware gap" seems pretty damn actual in some games already. There's a reason you're still pretending you can't see that the PS5 version of Far Cry 6 is visibly not as sharp as the Series X version when we all know that you can.


If depending on dynamic resolution scaling the Series X can have anywhere from a 60% or 70% advantage all the way up to 100% in resolution going from DF's count and VGTech's count at any given moment, don't you think it's kinda amazing that Series X still keeps so closely up to pace with PS5 performance? Pushing that many more pixels, and yet PS5 has a less than 0.20% advantage at maintaining 60fps. That's demonstrating a hardware gap. It's why some need to cling to this game. You can clearly see differences in the touryst, but are completely blind as a bat in Far Cry 6?

Sure Jan GIF
Oh God. It's the second post which use Avengers in the same day to point out the nothing tech wise as always. Aren't you tired to talk of the nothing in most of your post? I genuinely ask because your conversation start to be stagnant.
 
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arvfab

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Up to 60% 70% pixel count advantages, even 100% pixel resolution advantages in Avengers performance mode with identical fps performance isn't enough for you? It's not supposed anymore if there are games where it's actually happening. Doom Eternal is another example, though not as massive as in Avengers.

PS5 Checkerboard 4K in avengers 60fps mode = 1920x2160
Series X in Avengers hits Native 4K = 3840x2160

Those two resolutions are 100% apart in pixel counts. The advantage will often be less than that because I acknowledge what VGTech said, that the Series X more often scaled down from native 4K than did the PS5 from its checkerboard 4K, but both consoles scale. At worst following VGTech's pixel counts, Series X's lowest native resolution is still 62% higher than PS5's lowest checkerboard resolution. This "supposed hardware gap" seems pretty damn actual in some games already. There's a reason you're still pretending you can't see that the PS5 version of Far Cry 6 is visibly not as sharp as the Series X version when we all know that you can.


If depending on dynamic resolution scaling the Series X can have anywhere from a 60% or 70% advantage all the way up to 100% in resolution going from DF's count and VGTech's count at any given moment, don't you think it's kinda amazing that Series X still keeps so closely up to pace with PS5 performance? Pushing that many more pixels, and yet PS5 has a less than 0.20% advantage at maintaining 60fps. That's demonstrating a hardware gap. It's why some need to cling to this game. You can clearly see differences in the touryst, but are completely blind as a bat in Far Cry 6?

Sure Jan GIF

Boy using Avengers, a blatant PS4 Pro port with no optimizations, and a game of a Microsoft studio to prove anything, is as desperate as people claiming The Touryst proves the PS5 is stronger than the XSX.

You should really start putting your blatant fanboysm aside and start using some logic or at least - as you don't seem to be able to use logic - some coherency in your arguments.
 
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azertydu91

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This thread is full steam going now. Some of these posts are legendary, before the consoles launched types of rants. People feeling like they have a true technical knowledge of the inside and outs of these systems.

Can we all just let it go. There is consistent evidence each few weeks of how these are performing.

Xbox started rough, tools joke was made...xbox improved tools and games like control ended up running better on xbox.

Newer games are launching with the exact differences we expect. Between 10 to 30 percent more pixels being rendered on the same scenes. With sometimes a more steadier fps on ps5 due to the speed the gpu is operating.

Sony ssd is performing faster than xbox and in some freak circumstances...like this 2 year old indie game they are pushing 8k vs 6k once the game has been rebuilt from the ground up for the ps5.

The true test is, we don't really have any true only built for next gen games and with sonys new stance on pc and Jim's dream of not liking consoles, wanting games everywhere we may never see a game built from Cernys dreams of fully utilising the ps5s custom io. I personally find that a shame.

I don't think we will see next gen games ever again. The next gen will still be latched to ps5 and series x. Etc.

So let's just try and enjoy the games?

Like many have said, these machines have never been closer...they are literally a cocks hair between them. 10 vs 12 it's next to nothing as the evidence is showing us.
Do you see SenjutsuSage SenjutsuSage That's how you make a subtle console war post.
Praise their proximity in power while casualy mention that one has always between 10 to 30% res advantage, all that while ignoring when it is the other way around.
Consider that a game run better even though it is only in photo mode.
Dismiss subtely the game as a 2 years old indie game that has been redone for ps5 like it was just ad xb1 port the other way arouud.
Make a general statement of the industry all that while criticizing only one manufacturer.
Then finish by blurrig the lines saying they are closer than ever.
That way more subtle than your lies or misunderstanding about tech.