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DF: Returnal: Housemarque Pushes PlayStation 5 HARD - With Spectacular Results

geordiemp

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Imagine the scenes if Halo Infinite runs at 1080p on the XSX. The Sony boys would meme for months. So don't act like it's only one side doing this :messenger_winking:

You mean the Halo infinite with static screens and not much going on - if you think that is taxing just to render static low quality stuff at high resolution even at 8K then go and enjoy it - most people understand quality pixels and lots of movement and effects going on is far more taxing.

If this confuses you, go watch digital foundry Valhalla on XSX when 1 torch is used in a dark room, you know the scene, with lots of aphas and effects destroys XSX frame rate.

Now crank that up with ray traced global illumination and lots of particles and there you go.

What do you want next gen, lots of effects and stuff going onscreen which cant be done on old consoles, or games which just have more pixels and look like last gen games ?

I will sum it up for you to keep it simple .....Pixel pushers vs on screen action and effects.
 
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Bernd Lauert

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You mean the Halo infinite with static screens and not much going on - if you think that is taxing just to render static low quality stuff at high resolution even at 8K then go and enjoy it - most people understand quality pixels and lots of movement and effects going on is far more taxing.

If this confuses you, go watch digital foundry Valhalla on XSX when 1 torch is used in a dark room, you know the scene, with lots of aphas and effects destroys XSX frame rate.

Now crank that up with ray traced global illumination and lots of particles and there you go.

What do you want next gen, lots of effects and stuff going onscreen which cant be done on old consoles, or games whcih just have more pixels and look luike last gen games ?
So your argument is that Returnal looks so super next gen that it has to run at 1080p with frame rate drops? I don't see it tbh. Only the particles are impressive.

Also "quality pixels" sounds like another one of those memes.
 
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geordiemp

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Damn, 1080p@50fps is spectacular? Ok

Well, thats what heavy effects, particles and lots of crazy stuff on screen gives you.

If your happy with cross gen static games that just push pixels and nothing else, blandness flat worlds,, there are lots of games for you and all of us from 3rd parties.

If you believe XSX would run fluid simulation, lots of particles, fog and neons better ...? Every analysis we see on DF shows XSX is not to hot at post processing so I have no idea what your point is, remember the alpha effects when they used the Valhalla torch ? Not prettty XSX performance is it.
 
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geordiemp

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So your argument is that Returnal looks so super next gen that it has to run at 1080p with frame rate drops? I don't see it tbh. Only the particles are impressive.

Also "quality pixels" sounds like another one of those memes.

Lots of Neon, lights, particles, XSX would run Returnal worse than Ps5. It only took 2 torches with aphas to destroy performance in valhalla


So what is your point exactly ?
 

geordiemp

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Valhalla is optimized like a turd tbh. I'd hope a first party Sony game would do much better.

Yup blame the developer - or maybe every time you see lots of fancy effects it will tank frame rate and resolution on ps5 and XSX.

Hmmm, take your pick. Difficult one hahah

Or maybe we can all play photo mode so everything is static ?
 
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Markio128

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Valhalla is optimized like a turd tbh. I'd hope a first party Sony game would do much better.
Yeah, because Housemarque are so much more experienced than Ubisoft. Honestly, take off your green goggles, play Returnal for yourself and ask yourself the question ‘Does this game look great?’ All you guys are doing here is opening the door to the PS trolls to turn any upcoming series X game thread into a shitshow and you can’t blame anybody but yourselves.
 

Bernd Lauert

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Yeah, because Housemarque are so much more experienced than Ubisoft. Honestly, take off your green goggles, play Returnal for yourself and ask yourself the question ‘Does this game look great?’ All you guys are doing here is opening the door to the PS trolls to turn any upcoming series X game thread into a shitshow and you can’t blame anybody but yourselves.
Don't need to open any doors, they're very capable of opening them themselves :messenger_winking:
 

geordiemp

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Yeah, because Housemarque are so much more experienced than Ubisoft. Honestly, take off your green goggles, play Returnal for yourself and ask yourself the question ‘Does this game look great?’ All you guys are doing here is opening the door to the PS trolls to turn any upcoming series X game thread into a shitshow and you can’t blame anybody but yourselves.

Not really - if MS are making games for game pass and all devices and streaming, then games like Cyberpunk or Returnal of even Ratchet that would just die on last gen will not be on the menu anyway.
 

Rea

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"Enlighten makes use of both lightmaps and light probes to enable efficient rendering".

Rasterization and main Enlighten code is a CPU rasterizer.
Do you even understand what's rasterization rendering?
 

Rea

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A purity test ? What are we doing here ? The developer of the game says theres no visual RT and explains what they're using it for. Why is this an argument here ?




But you're not contradicting what i said. The guy says they're using it for their custom GI solution. That it. And when Alex asked them, they explained to him further what it means, that they're using the RT hardware to speed up the GI querries. There is no visual Ray Tracing in Returnal. There is usage of the RT hardware, but you do not get a visual payoff.
I told you Alex was assuming. Alex thinks RTX GI from nvidia is Rasterization, he is just utterly wrong. RTXGI is a kind of ray tracing using the nvidia DDGI algorithm.
 
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RECONSTRUCTION IS UPSCALING

Reconstrution IS NOT upscaling

Simple explanation by KZ devs 8 years ago :

Now, the studio has published a new blog post, titled "Regarding Killzone Shadow Fall and 1080p", explaining what, exactly, was going on with the game.

"In both SP and MP, Killzone Shadow Fall outputs a full, unscaled 1080p image at up to 60fps," producer Poria Torkan said.

"Native is often used to indicate images that are not scaled; it is native by that definition.

"In multiplayer mode, however, we use a technique called 'temporal reprojection', which combines pixels and motion vectors from multiple lower-resolution frames to reconstruct a full 1080p image. If native means that every part of the pipeline is 1080p then this technique is not native
"Games often employ different resolutions in different parts of their rendering pipeline. Most games render particles and ambient occlusion at a lower resolution, while some games even do all lighting at a lower resolution. This is generally still called native 1080p. The technique used in



Upscaling image is just simple explanation as to fill TV screen ( if TV can produce image beyond 1080p resolution ). Resolution technique doesn't do that. Period!

I'm not knocking the game. You 2 are just in a semantics war with me but you are both wrong so I can't give up haha.

You were wrong in every damn single post.
 
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Fredrik

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Question: when talking about DLSS, why don't people focus on the base internal resolution it reconstructs from?
DLSS2.0 is a whole other beast.
I’ve had it scaling from 540p internal, even 360p I think. Looks fine. Admittedly my eyes aren’t the best but whatever minor IQ hit it takes it has to be worth it for the performance gain.
 
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muteZX

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Do you even understand what's rasterization rendering?

Enlighten SDK = software CPU GI rasterizer /how does their radiosity "raycasting" algorithm work, i dont care because i don't know/.

Update ..
 
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DonJuanSchlong

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Question: when talking about DLSS, why don't people focus on the base internal resolution it reconstructs from? DLSS in "Performance mode" at 4K renders at 1080p. Why don't I see you or others being disappointed that DLSS's perf mode renders at 1080p? Of course, there's "Quality mode" that looks betters, renders at a higher 1440p res, and obviously incurs a perf hit.

And at times when "quality mode" can't get you up to your target frame rate, you have to drop it down to "performance mode" and be ok with worse image quality because you're getting smoother perf in return.
Because DLSS is superior to any other type of CBR or TAA upscaling tricks. It's disingenuous to even compare them, more of less mention them in the same sentence.
 
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I told you Alex was assuming. Alex thinks RTX GI from nvidia is Rasterization, he is just utterly wrong. RTXGI is a kind of ray tracing using the nvidia DDGI algorithm.

He related in the video the response from the developer. I assume verbatim. What is Alex assuming ? The developer told him there is no ray tracing in the game, just that the hardware for it is used. They said in the video they have not seen any RT in the game, thats why they asked. Other channels or sites said the same. There is no ray tracing component in the game's visual output
 

DonJuanSchlong

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He related in the video the response from the developer. I assume verbatim. What is Alex assuming ? The developer told him there is no ray tracing in the game, just that the hardware for it is used. They said in the video they have not seen any RT in the game, thats why they asked. Other channels or sites said the same. There is no ray tracing component in the game's visual output
Not sure why that is so hard for some to understand. It's not used the same way that we are used to VISUALLY see raytracing. It's used to speed up the rendering in this game, so not exactly a visual cue to pick up on. I personally think it was disingenuous to label it as 4K, 60 fps, w/ RT enabled. Because it's clearly not ticking any of those boxes. But I would love to play this game. I'm a sucker for these kinda things. But you're absolutely right.
 
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Rea

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Enlighten SDK = software CPU GI rasterizer /how does their radiosity "raycasting" algorithm work, i dont care because i don't know/.

Update ..
There is no such thing as CPU GI rasterizer. Rasterizing or Ray tracing is the work of GPU. Go back and read some books about graphics rendering techniques.
 
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muteZX

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There is no such thing as CPU GI rasterizer. Rasterizing or Ray tracing is the work of GPU. Go back and read some books about graphics rendering techniques.
ehm .. for decades it was and still is a work of CPU .. ehm.

ehm .. ehm .. like really ..

>> CPU <<

you dont need a GPU to be able to rasterize or raytrace anything at all .. ehm.

Update: CPU is doing rasterization, raycasting, even raytracing /albeit veeeeery slow/ .. as you wish. There is not present GPU in any form, just simple framebuffer and RAMDAC, literally.
 
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assurdum

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Imagine the scenes if Halo Infinite runs at 1080p on the XSX. The Sony boys would meme for months. So don't act like it's only one side doing this :messenger_winking:
oh no wtf GIF by CBC

You know what's the bigger difference? Most of the Sony fans would laugh about it but hardly pretend to say something more; most of the Xbox fans indeed, as always trying to argue seriously how important is this game as univocal benchmark without possible escape, which shows the true limits of the ps5 hardware. Just to say the difference in their respective narrative.
 
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Thirty7ven

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Imagine the scenes if Halo Infinite runs at 1080p on the XSX. The Sony boys would meme for months. So don't act like it's only one side doing this :messenger_winking:

From the very start the problem with Halo Infinite is that it looked... bad, or at the very least, extremely mediocre. With bad lighting, texturing, static world, horrible pop in... this was before anyone knowing what res it was running at. Running at 4K doesn’t turn Halo into a good looking game, therefore it doesn’t matter what res it’s running at.

And Halo was memed by the entire internet, to the point MS delayed the game a full year. Because somehow they thought that looked good, which is the best part about it all. Bodes well for the future.
 
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Rea

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The developer told him there is no ray tracing in the game
Developers never told him "There is no ray tracing in the game" they told him " they use the hardware to accelerate their Customized GI" which is similar to nvidia RTX GI, it is also kind of ray tracing.

 
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Rea

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ehm .. for decades it was and still is a work of CPU .. ehm.

ehm .. ehm .. like really ..

>> CPU <<

you dont need a GPU to be able to rasterize or raytrace anything at all .. ehm.
Alright then use your "CPU only" to play Raytracing games or triple A games. 😂
 

muteZX

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Alright then use your "CPU only" to play Raytracing games or triple A games. 😂
I dont need to .. there is another way .. a possibility of fully custom "software" renderpipeline on RDNA2 architectue .. you are almost completely shutting OFF the GPU HW fixed functions and using GPU as a CPU .. amen.

Back to roots .. DOOM on i386 .. no GPU, no gfx API, nothing, w/out restrictions.

Dreams /PS4, PS5/ is doing that .. 100% compute software rendering, no HW rasterizer .. distance field based software renderer.

The Tomorrow Children /PS4/ is doing that .. 100% compute software rendering .. cascaded voxel cone ray tracing.
 
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saintjules

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"After checking in Housemarque, we got some answers: the PlayStation 5's RT hardware is used to accelerate global illumination queries, essentially speeding up a software-based system and not used for direct visual results. A similar system is used in Nvidia's RTXGI, so I'll be curious if this technology is repurposed in some way for Returnal - RTXGI is a part of Unreal Engine 4 now. Housemarque also shared that the hardware RT system in PlayStation 5 is also used to take the 3D audio in Returnal to the next level: audio environment queries are accelerated with hardware ray tracing support."

Source: https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2021-returnal-absolute-housemarque


Super cool to go back to the Road to PS5 video and find the stuff Mark Cerny talked about and see it in practice.
 

01011001

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It's 1440P CP up to 4K with some base assets that are 1080p

The game looks sharp and fluid, so the fact that certain aspects aren't 100% 4K isn't really an issue

there's no such thing as 1440p checkerboarded up to 4k. that's something I would expect some casual to say as CBR doesn't work like that at all. so either they had someone on the line that has no idea what they were talking about or there was some misunderstanding

also the pixel counts come out as 1080p so that's clearly bullshit to begin with.

what's most likely the case is that it runs at 1080p native and uses UE4's temporal AA to upscale it to 4k, which isn't really convincing ever
 
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Rea

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I dont need to .. there is another way .. a possibility of fully custom "software" renderpipeline on RDNA2 architectue .. you are almost completely shutting OFF the GPU HW fixed functions and using GPU as a CPU .. amen.

Back to roots .. DOOM on i386 .. no GPU, no gfx API, nothing, w/out restrictions.

Dreams /PS4, PS5/ is doing that .. 100% compute software rendering, no HW rasterizer .. distance field based software renderer.
I'm done.

 
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ChuckeRearmed

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I think most next gen games are going to be like this when it comes to marketing. Neither system is a true Native 4K 60FPs box. Developers will use reconstruction and upscaling tricks to sell us 4K at 60FPs for most games.
I am curious what we are gonna have by the end of the gen though - I think we potentially can reach full 4k in the future. Though probably it won't matter with all those upscale techniques.After all the resolution doesn't matter anymore.
 

assurdum

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there's no such thing as 1440p checkerboarded up to 4k. that's something I would expect some casual to say as CBR doesn't work like that at all. so either they had someone on the line that has no idea what they were talking about or there was some misunderstanding

also the pixel counts come out as 1080p so that's clearly bullshit to begin with.

what's most likely the case is that it runs at 1080p native and uses UE4's temporal AA to upscale it to 4k, which isn't really convincing ever
I will wait to see what VGtech and nxgamer will say about it. Definitely what Alex said seems a bit off to me too. Reconstructed 1440 from 1080p up to 4k via CBR should be a total mess in terms of IQ artifacts and doesn't make sense to me. I have in mind the shitshow of The Avengers.
 
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FrankWza

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That "Returnal is 60 fps at 4K" thread has aged like milk :messenger_beaming:
The Medium will come to both Xbox Series X and PC at the end of this year, and as confirmed by the developer in the comment sections the game will run 4K/30 FPS on the Xbox Series X for both a “cinematic experience” and because of the rendering of the two worlds at the same time with limited to no loading.

 
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ChuckeRearmed

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I will wait to see what VGtech and nxgamer will say about it. Definitely what Alex said seems a bit off to me too. Reconstructed 1440 from 1080p up to 4k via CBR should be a total mess in terms of IQ artifacts.
But that's why the game is so dark. It was mentioned multiple times - I think? - in the video that you can see artifacts on grass and so on. But due to being dark it is not really visible.
Would be more interesting to see it in a broad daylight.
 
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But that's why the game is so dark. It was mentioned multiple times - I think? - in the video that you can see artifacts on grass and so on. But due to being dark it is not really visible.
Would be more interesting to see it in a broad daylight.

The first biome is dark 🤦‍♂️
 

assurdum

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But that's why the game is so dark. It was mentioned multiple times - I think? - in the video that you can see artifacts on grass and so on. But due to being dark it is not really visible.
Would be more interesting to see it in a broad daylight.
Doubt it's dark for that reason. And anyway:
Not all the levels are dark.
 
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Skifi28

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You'd expect less arguing when there's only one version of the game with no other ports to compare to.
 

Fredrik

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oh no wtf GIF by CBC

You know what's the bigger difference? Most of the Sony fans would laugh about it but hardly pretend to say something more; most of the Xbox fans indeed, as always trying to argue seriously how important is this game as univocal benchmark without possible escape, which shows the true limits of the ps5 hardware. Just to say the difference in their respective narrative.
Lol stop this it would be exactly the same dumb talk about bottlenecks or memory pools or whatever imaginary hardware flaw people here pretend they know a shit about.
 
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assurdum

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Lol stop this it would exactly the same dumb talk about bottlenecks or memory pools or whatever imaginary hardware flaw people here pretend they know a shit about.
Talking about possible bottlenecks is quite different than to say the ps5 hardware is outdated, pushed to the extreme and so on. Eh. There is an universe between the 2 narrative.
 
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