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Analysis Review DF - Ratchet and Clank: Rift Apart PS5 - The Digital Foundry Tech Review

longdi

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Let us be fair and give a thumbs up for Insominaic and Tec Price. Maybe their gameplay designs are not the most complex, but they hit the ground running with pushing the new technology. :messenger_clapping:

Have not seen D dark10x sounded this satisfied in a DF video for a while
 
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SlimySnake

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I remember pages of discussions on crabs being to detailed. Now ratchet shows indeed small objects can be detailed. Wonder how close up shots in horizon will look.

Game looks fantastic
LMAO. You know that reminded me that Alex went on and on about how Aloy looked so good in the trailer last year because she was using hero quality assets and hero lighting, and how she wont look that good in regular gameplay. Well, GG literally gave her her own hero lighting.
 
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Dr Bass

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I mean come on this is some low poly rocks with low resolution texture on a stylized mesh. Look at the ground and the tree trunk.
Like come on. We know texture data is like 70-80% of game data. A stylized/cartoon game makes things so easier to load data because there's less texture complexity.
I hazard to guess that these rocks are not even 1,000 triangles. Now compare them to what people expect next gen...(cough UE5 demos, Quixel Demos, etc)
That doesn't mean Rift Apart isn't a great looking game. It is. The baked static GI, art style and particles are great.

But its made up of low poly environment and simple texture complexity. This makes it easy to push data because you don't have to push 4k-8k textures that a photorealistic game is aiming for.
We all know if we saw a game with those kind textures on rocks, we would make alot of noise about it and this is worse, a stylized rock which hides low resolution texture.





There were plenty of video reviews that showed insane texture detail, what they claimed were industry leading PBR shaders, and certain levels of rendering quality on things like fur, that looked better than anything I've yet to see on another game.

The bottom line is this game is industry leading right now in terms of the overall visual package, irrespective of style choices.

How people find ways to denigrate this effort is kinda dumb. If this approach were so easy and simple to figure out ("It's just simple textures and geometry!"), how come no one in the history of humanity has done anything even close to this? Clearly other game companies should have hired you since you know how to achieve this level of quality with no problem. Simple as 1-2-3!

And the reaction I described is present in a lot of reviews. I think it might have been SkillUp that said he just feels sorry for other game makers right now, since he doesn't know how anyone else is going to measure up to this. Multiple reviews have compared it to looking as good as a CG movie. Multiple. Reviews. This is just what Insomniac has achieved with this title, and this is where we are right now in the gaming world, and no ones complaining or living in denial is going to change that.

It's just pissing off a lot of people that hate that this game is out on PS5 for whatever reason. It wouldn't matter if this was PC, or XSX, or, miraculously, the Switch. It would be the same awesome high water mark we are seeing and I would still be excited to play it. Anyone downplaying this game is a hater, pure and simple. This is as close as we have ever seen to the promise of the "Toy Story" level game we have been hearing about since Ken Kutaragi talked through his arse about it in regards to the PS2.

I have a strong feeling that most of the people trying to tear this game down are going to be singing the praises of the next XSX game that looks amazing and trying to explain why THAT particular game is great. But they can all be great. This isn't a zero sum hobby thankfully. I personally can't wait to see the next high water mark of a game, no matter where it lands.
 

Tschumi

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i enjoyed the video :) i think the next great leap might be in realistic splashes and stuff, but other than that the game is saliva-squirting'ly good looking
 

HAL-01

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There were plenty of video reviews that showed insane texture detail, what they claimed were industry leading PBR shaders, and certain levels of rendering quality on things like fur, that looked better than anything I've yet to see on another game.

The bottom line is this game is industry leading right now in terms of the overall visual package, irrespective of style choices.

How people find ways to denigrate this effort is kinda dumb. If this approach were so easy and simple to figure out ("It's just simple textures and geometry!"), how come no one in the history of humanity has done anything even close to this? Clearly other game companies should have hired you since you know how to achieve this level of quality with no problem. Simple as 1-2-3!

And the reaction I described is present in a lot of reviews. I think it might have been SkillUp that said he just feels sorry for other game makers right now, since he doesn't know how anyone else is going to measure up to this. Multiple reviews have compared it to looking as good as a CG movie. Multiple. Reviews. This is just what Insomniac has achieved with this title, and this is where we are right now in the gaming world, and no ones complaining or living in denial is going to change that.

It's just pissing off a lot of people that hate that this game is out on PS5 for whatever reason. It wouldn't matter if this was PC, or XSX, or, miraculously, the Switch. It would be the same awesome high water mark we are seeing and I would still be excited to play it. Anyone downplaying this game is a hater, pure and simple. This is as close as we have ever seen to the promise of the "Toy Story" level game we have been hearing about since Ken Kutaragi talked through his arse about it in regards to the PS2.

I have a strong feeling that most of the people trying to tear this game down are going to be singing the praises of the next XSX game that looks amazing and trying to explain why THAT particular game is great. But they can all be great. This isn't a zero sum hobby thankfully. I personally can't wait to see the next high water mark of a game, no matter where it lands.
i stopped reading at the "stylized game means lower resolution textures" bit lmao, that guy is completely full of shit
 

ZywyPL

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i stopped reading at the "stylized game means lower resolution textures" bit lmao, that guy is completely full of shit

Yeah, IG currently holds the candle when it comes to texture resolution among Sony studios, back in the PS3 times it was GG>ND>IG, but now IG games are the ones who have those super crisp, super detailed textures, even on the base PS4/Pro in Spider-Man/Miles Morales, GG is alright in that field too, but they make open-world games now so some sacrifices obviously have to be there, while ND's games for whatever the reasons have blurry, washed out textures everywhere which kills the entire presentation.

But I'll say tho the environments in R&C are rather empty and simple, they're not as dense as even some PS4 games, even recent HFW which is a cross-gen is much, much more pack with the foliage, trees, building ruins etc. But maybe that's the reason individual objects in R&C are so damn detailed, whereas in HFW all those objects are lacking in geometry details.
 

Luipadre

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I mean come on this is some low poly rocks with low resolution texture on a stylized mesh. Look at the ground and the tree trunk.
Like come on. We know texture data is like 70-80% of game data. A stylized/cartoon game makes things so easier to load data because there's less texture complexity.
I hazard to guess that these rocks are not even 1,000 triangles. Now compare them to what people expect next gen...(cough UE5 demos, Quixel Demos, etc)
That doesn't mean Rift Apart isn't a great looking game. It is. The baked static GI, art style and particles are great.

But its made up of low poly environment and simple texture complexity. This makes it easy to push data because you don't have to push 4k-8k textures that a photorealistic game is aiming for.
We all know if we saw a game with those kind textures on rocks, we would make alot of noise about it and this is worse, a stylized rock which hides low resolution texture.






Holy shit looks fucking insane. This on my OLED with HDR Kreygasm
 

KAL2006

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Don't be sad. R&C is built using the same technology of the cross-gen Spider-Man MIles Morales. (DF even talks about how they're using familiar visual techniques that MM introduced, and that you can also see some of the minor hitches in the engine that are the same because the tech is shared.) It's not a cross-gen game because you can't do those fast-loading levels/tricks, but if that wasn't the gameplay conceit, possibly Rift Apart could have been ported down with the same downscaling loss of detail and complexity as Miles. Luckily, they didn't have to try.

The power of PS5 helps, of course, but exclusivity isn't what makes this awesome. It's a lot of hard work on a good engine by smart people. Next gen will continue to evolve, and we'll get to the point where products like Rift Apart distance themselves impossibly away from old gen, but the technology is taking a bit longer to get there then it has in consoles of the past, and it's not just cross-gen releases from either Sony or MS that's holding it back.

True but I'm talking in terms of game design possibilities. I'm currently LTTP and playing God of War at the moment think I'm near the end and I can already see the limitations of that game in terms of game design. While the game looks beautiful, there is a lack of massive setpeices from the older games but with the new detail and camera angle. Areas are segmented into smaller areas to hide loading times. You can tell the developers were restricted building a game around 2012 laptop CPU and the slow HDD and it's a shame the sequel will have those same limitations. It will basically be a prettier version of the previous game instead of a proper evolution.

It's a shame but I'm not fussed I'm guess as im LTTTP for alot of PS4 games, as soon as I finish my PS4 game backlog we will eventually see next gen only games.
 
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Hunnybun

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Dat Rivet fur tho... Also, HUGE boost in RT performance, would like to hear from IG what's the magic behind such resolution bump compared to Spider-Man, this really gives a lot of hope for AMD GPUs to perform well with those kind of effects, like really, Lisa Su should talk to the guys how they achieved it.

Between this and the insanely impressive GI in Metro Exodus, I'm starting to think that RT can be a significant part of next gen visuals, and not just a bit of a gimmick. It even seems possible at 60fps with a few compromises.
 
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Azurro

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Ain't talking about streaming Mr. ABonermal, just showing the game isn't doing anything that hasn't been done before as some here truly seem to think this portal thing is some new next-gen thingy. Doesn't matter if its on RAM or not.

We'll talk again once we actually have a game where you jump between 10 different worlds whenever you want.

You do not understand what is being talked about. Your example games do exactly the same as every single other piece of gaming software has ever done: load data into ram and then go.

You could have portals in the N64 and PSOne, the difference is that the more environments you have, the less amount of detail each environment is allowed to have.

The big difference here is that the I/O is so fast that it allows streaming such a large amount of data relative to the past, that you can stream in entire levels in less than a couple of seconds without having to sacrifice detail and can even make it part of your gameplay without resorting to hacks.

I know this is not as fun as "buT tHe EvIl LyInG CorpoRationss BrO!!", but it's good to know something new every day.
 
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Terenty

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Hmm, after Dishonored 2 did it with its time travelling level this doesn't look so next gen.

You could pull out the device at any time and seamlessly see what's going on in the level from another point in time without any loadings and go back and forth between levels. Anyone who played it knows what i'm talking about
 
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Guilty_AI

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You do not understand what is being talked about. Your example games do exactly the same as every single other piece of gaming software has ever done: load data into ram and then go.

You could have portals in the N64 and PSOne, the difference is that the more environments you have, the less amount of detail each environment is allowed to have.

The big difference here is that the I/O is so fast that it allows streaming such a large amount of data relative to the past, that you can stream in entire levels in less than a couple of seconds without having to sacrifice detail and can even make it part of your gameplay without resorting to hacks.

I know this is not as fun as "buT tHe EvIl LyInG CorpoRationss BrO!!", but it's good to know something new every day.
I perfectly understand whats being talked about mate. Thats why i know any discussion about this allowing for "new types of games!" or "level design that was impossible before!" is 100% bullshit. It may make devs life easier, and at best allow for some visual improvements, but thats about it. And thats the same thing for almost every other hardware upgrade.

People here are even drooling about wipe transition effects and praising next gen for it, while completely ignoring Fallen Order had those too. The truth is, most people here are just being blinded by next gen hype or corporate PR crap, thats really all there is to it. We ain't seeing nothing new besides better visuals.
 
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FunkMiller

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I perfectly understand whats being talked about mate. Thats why i know any discussion about this allowing for "new types of games!" or "level design that was impossible before!" is 100% bullshit. It may make devs life easier, and at best allow for some visual improvements, but thats about it. And thats the same thing for almost every other hardware upgrade.

People here are even drooling about wipe transition effects and praising next gen for it, while completely ignoring Fallen Order had those too. The truth is, most people here are just being blinded by next gen hype or corporate PR crap, thats really all there is to it. We ain't seeing nothing new besides better visuals.

I guess John from DF is full of shit then? Because he certainly says that this is the kind of stuff that couldn't be done last gen. Why should we listen to you and not him?
 

Guilty_AI

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The Star Wars one is just a cut scene. And the other one is a simple transition from one simplistic track to another, both very similar, easily loadable from RAM. Ratchet swaps one entire real time environment out for another instantly.
The star wars one is rendered in real time, put it there because people were all praising the wipe transition effect in R&C as next gen.

And as i mentioned before, if all you have to say is that "it doesn't look as good" we go back to the original point that in the end we're only getting better visuals for the same games.

Besides, the racing game i showed allows for custom user made tracks, you can have far more complex scene transitions if you so wish.
 
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THE:MILKMAN

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Because i have video proof



More video proof


That isn't proof and you still seem to misunderstand. Those two games almost certainly have the those alternative wipes "parked" in RAM and the whole point of the PS5's IO ( and next-gen generally with SSD/IO) is that it is now possible to grab GB's of data from storage, loaded into RAM and shown on screen while playing. It is the way this is achieved that is new and couldn't be done before. This has huge knock-on effects for creative freedom, simplifying dev and no doubt many other benefits for both production and graphics etc.
 

Guilty_AI

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That isn't proof and you still seem to misunderstand. Those two games almost certainly have the those alternative wipes "parked" in RAM and the whole point of the PS5's IO ( and next-gen generally with SSD/IO) is that it is now possible to grab GB's of data from storage, loaded into RAM and shown on screen while playing. It is the way this is achieved that is new and couldn't be done before. This has huge knock-on effects for creative freedom, simplifying dev and no doubt many other benefits for both production and graphics etc.
I'm not misundersterstanding anything mate. If we're gonna talk about the ways creative freedom is limited by hardware, then about every piece of hardware that isn't up to par will limit it.
And the difficulty of the wipe effect is having to render two screens at once, not about swapping assets. So in the end it isn't even related to SSDs or whatever.
 
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Guilty_AI

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You’ll notice that as soon as the wipe starts, the ship in the first shot suddenly stops moving. It becomes a still shot because the game can’t handle rendering 2 viewports at once. The game tries to hide it by making the wipe really quick.
Glad to be of help!
Wrong, devs said in an interview they actually tried what you said but it didn't work.
They had to actually render two scenes at once, the stillness could be explained by animations/camera having stopped rather than just a still shot, maybe to save CPU power on the console versions or just an overlook.
 

HAL-01

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Wrong, devs said in an interview they actually tried what you said but it didn't work.
They had to actually render two scenes at once, the stillness could be explained by animations/camera having stopped rather than just a still shot, maybe to save CPU power on the console versions or just an overlook.
Really? It was easier for them to do it the much harder way? And it just happens to look like the cheap easy way anyways. Wow, would love to hear this interview
 
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NikuNashi

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Let us be fair and give a thumbs up for Insominaic and Tec Price. Maybe their gameplay designs are not the most complex, but they hit the ground running with pushing the new technology. :messenger_clapping:

Have not seen D dark10x sounded this satisfied in a DF video for a while
Respect for even showing your face on here today, let's see if 343 pickup the baton and run with it next week on 'the more powerful' console. 😁
 

Guilty_AI

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Really? It was easier for them to do it the much harder way? And it just happens to look like the cheap easy way anyways. Wow, would love to hear this interview

“The wipe in film is so easy—well, I don’t know if it’s easy, but in film you just take two different pictures and you have them both and you just wipe them across—but in games, you have to render both of those things at the same time,” he said. “You have two different cameras running with the game running in two different environments to be able to wipe that across. So that was a really kind of an interesting technical challenge.”

Early in the development process, Kelch explained, he made a prototype version of the feature that actually did transition from a still screenshot of the former scene to the next scene, but the transition was too jarring, so he was forced to do it the hard way with the help of fellow developer, programmer and technical director Jiesang Song.

“I’m pretty sure when I told [Jiesang] that we were going to do this he was just like, ‘that’s a terrible idea,’” Kelch said. “And it was like, well, we got to have the Star Wars wipe, like, you gotta have it.”
 
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THE:MILKMAN

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I'm not misundersterstanding anything mate. If we're gonna talk about the ways creative freedom is limited by hardware, then about every piece of hardware that isn't up to par will limit it.
And the difficulty of the wipe effect is having to render two screens at once, not about swapping assets.

I genuinely don't understand your problem with this!? Not needing to waste a lot of resources rendering two scenes seems like a perfect example of just one way the huge uplift with IO benefits things. There will be many others I don't doubt.

Is there anything specific that John says in his video you believe is erroneous?
 
S

Shodan09

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I'm not talking about that blur (result of heat wave and DOF). I'm talking about the geometry and texture complexity on the rocks everywhere, especially near her armpits.
Woah there! This is NEOGAF. You're only allowed to complain about poor geometry in the background of games like Halo Infinite. How dare you suggest that any element of this games visual presentation isn't best in class?
 
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Guilty_AI

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I genuinely don't understand your problem with this!? Not needing to waste a lot of resources rendering two scenes seems like a perfect example of just one way the huge uplift with IO benefits things. There will be many others I don't doubt.

Is there anything specific that John says in his video you believe is erroneous?
Why are you even talking about IO here? Didn't i just said you have to render two scenes at once to get that effect? Its a problem that'd need to rely on GPU power, not IO or SSDs.

Talking about that, it actually reminded me of this game

 
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Azurro

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I perfectly understand whats being talked about mate. Thats why i know any discussion about this allowing for "new types of games!" or "level design that was impossible before!" is 100% bullshit. It may make devs life easier, and at best allow for some visual improvements, but thats about it. And thats the same thing for almost every other hardware upgrade.

People here are even drooling about wipe transition effects and praising next gen for it, while completely ignoring Fallen Order had those too. The truth is, most people here are just being blinded by next gen hype or corporate PR crap, thats really all there is to it. We ain't seeing nothing new besides better visuals.

Again, you don't understand. It's a matter of practicality and feasibility, you are not going to make a game that looks like a PS2 game on purpose just to have different portals or bigger levels.

You know why this can only be done on something with the I/O capabilities of the PS5?

Let's say you want to load a scene and the normal way to do it is to load it with as much detail as you can and the either restrict the player movement or add bottlenecks as the rest of the level gets very slowly loaded up.

Now, if you want, say, a portal or multiple scenes, you need to load all of them in RAM. You might think "marketing gimmick?! Waah Wash! Sony sucks!!", but it really isn't that, as you have a very finite amount of RAM that needs to not only load the scene in front of you, but the patches of the scene you might go to and now multiply it by however many scenes you'd like to have. Long story short, the game will look like shit.

However, with the new I/O capabilities, you can have a relatively arbitrary amount of scenes loaded up in less than a couple of seconds, so you can get the incredibly detailed scenes and multiple of them. Not only that, it also frees up RAM as you don't need to store as much in RAM for the adjacent areas as you can stream them in WAY faster than before.

It is not PR crap, you simply don't understand it much.
 

ripeavocado

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I guess John from DF is full of shit then? Because he certainly says that this is the kind of stuff that couldn't be done last gen. Why should we listen to you and not him?

Yes, he is.
He doesn't know what he is talking about, he's not a developer, he's not able to properly test the impact of the SSD or the amount of contented streamed but he talks about it like he knows.

They are armchair experts that should be imbarassed of posting their opinions even on obscure internet forums.
 
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HAL-01

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“The wipe in film is so easy—well, I don’t know if it’s easy, but in film you just take two different pictures and you have them both and you just wipe them across—but in games, you have to render both of those things at the same time,” he said. “You have two different cameras running with the game running in two different environments to be able to wipe that across. So that was a really kind of an interesting technical challenge.”

Early in the development process, Kelch explained, he made a prototype version of the feature that actually did transition from a still screenshot of the former scene to the next scene, but the transition was too jarring, so he was forced to do it the hard way with the help of fellow developer, programmer and technical director Jiesang Song.

“I’m pretty sure when I told [Jiesang] that we were going to do this he was just like, ‘that’s a terrible idea,’” Kelch said. “And it was like, well, we got to have the Star Wars wipe, like, you gotta have it.”
So, reading the article, aptly titled “the Star Wars transition was a pain in the ass to recreate”, the devs spent several months trying to make it work.
And evidently they didn’t manage to make it seamless due to what I already pointed out.

This is your evidence that it’s totally not noteworthy that insomniac could pull it off seamlessly?
 

Guilty_AI

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So, reading the article, aptly titled “the Star Wars transition was a pain in the ass to recreate”, the devs spent several months trying to make it work.
And evidently they didn’t manage to make it seamless due to what I already pointed out.

This is your evidence that it’s totally not noteworthy that insomniac could pull it off seamlessly?
Do you think they just slapped together a solution in three days? How would you know they pulled it off easily? I said it before, but this isn't something a magical SSD would help much with. Maybe they had loads of trouble with it like the devs of Fallen Order did, maybe its something they worked on months until they finally pulled it off, thats what common sense would dictate.

I don't know if you realize, but attributting all this possible work to a piece of hardware can be extremely disrespectful to the devs who had to figure everuthing out to do this.
 
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thebigmanjosh

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That's just not true dude. These graphics engines already have implementation for RT. That's already been a given based on the PC getting RT treatment a couple of years ago. You are looking at CDPR's lack of ability to make a proper next-gen code for Cyberpunk? That's about the only case that would prove your argument. But all the other game companies didn't push their games out the door even if the last-gen versions weren't ready yet like CDPR.
I’m going to go out on a limb and say you’re both right but you’re misunderstanding the point. I think Fake Fake was referring to the fact that because of the RT hardware in consoles (and PC Cards), third parties are more likely to make RT a baseline and fundamental piece of their engines moving forward à la Metro Exodus EE.

Obviously, the original game made compromises to accommodate last gen hardware and older PC Cards, and it’s hard to argue games won’t look better when designed to a RTX 2060/6700 XT min spec.
 
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THE:MILKMAN

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Why are you even talking about IO here? Didn't i just said you have to render two scenes at once to get that effect? Its a problem that'd need to rely on GPU power, not IO or SSDs.

Talking about that, it actually reminded me of this game


But surely what they say about having to do it that way was within the context of last gen limitations? Now they shouldn't have to do it that way (and possibly be far easier to boot!) with the massively upgraded IO/SSDs in consoles and DirectStorage and RTX IO on PC.

Unless the R&C "swipe" shown at 2:42 in the DF video would still be too jarring for Respawn? It looks at least as good as the example from FO you posted IMO.
 

HAL-01

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Do you think they just slapped together a solution in three days? How would you know they pulled it off easily? I said it before, but this isn't something a magical SSD would help much with. Maybe they had loads of trouble with it like the devs of Fallen Order did, maybe its something they worked on months until they finally pulled it off, thats what common sense would dictate.

I don't know if you realize, but attributting all this possible work to a piece of hardware can be extremely disrespectful to the devs who had to figure everuthing out to do this.
I haven’t said shit about hardware, perhaps you’re arguing with a strawman

I do know that the dual viewport tech they use for the transition is the same they developed for the portals. Nevertheless, that has nothing to do with your argument that “fallen order did it first!! Nothing new!!!” Which has already been settled
 

staticshock

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i stopped reading at the "stylized game means lower resolution textures" bit lmao, that guy is completely full of shit

If I'm so "full of shit" why wouldn't that be so easy to disprove?
This is a tech thread after all right? Its always the un-informed that claims someone else doesn't know what they are talking about because they can't come up with facts to disprove the other individual.

Me on the other hand....

"On the technical side, as a 3D modeler, you will find that working with stylized models to be a lot simpler and more efficient than photorealistic models. Due to the simple nature of the models and the fact that stylized models rarely tend to strain the CPU compared to photorealistic models, you would find modeling stylized objects to be fun and enjoyable. Your models will also use up less storage space giving you the ability to fit more models in one scene." - Thilakanathan Studios

Here is a comparison of a stylized rock model versus a designed photoreal rock model.
Comparing their ~1024x1024 normal textures. The photoreal comes in at 525kb versus stylized 312kb. Almost double.
This balloons exponentially when you compare them to photogrammetry models.
Your photorealistic rocks ends up being more than 10x geometry and texture more immense than a stylized rock.

Even then stylized rocks require less resolution textures to look good (so 512 and 1024 will suffice) while photorealistic and photogrammetry needs 4-8k textures.
While photorealistic photogrammetry does. Why? The higher the polygon and geometric density, the greater the detail the textures have to have. It needs micro details!

Rift Apart is easily 10x less data complex than a photorealistic game using photogrammetry assets that have highly complex models and highly accurate photographic textures with microdetails.




 
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If I'm so "full of shit" why wouldn't that be so easy to disprove?
This is a tech thread after all right? Its always the un-informed that claims someone else doesn't know what they are talking about because they can't come up with facts to disprove the other individual.

Me on the other hand....

"On the technical side, as a 3D modeler, you will find that working with stylized models to be a lot simpler and more efficient than photorealistic models. Due to the simple nature of the models and the fact that stylized models rarely tend to strain the CPU compared to photorealistic models, you would find modeling stylized objects to be fun and enjoyable. Your models will also use up less storage space giving you the ability to fit more models in one scene." - Thilakanathan Studios

Here is a comparison of a stylized rock model versus a designed photoreal rock model.
Comparing their ~1024x1024 normal textures. The photoreal comes in at 525kb versus stylized 312kb. Almost double.
This balloons exponentially when you compare them to photogrammetry models.
Your photorealistic rocks ends up being more than 10x geometry and texture more immense than a stylized rock.

Even then stylized rocks require less resolution textures to look good (so 512 and 1024 will suffice) while photorealistic and photogrammetry needs 4-8k textures.
While photorealistic photogrammetry does. Why? The higher the polygon and geometric density, the greater the detail the textures have to have. It needs micro details!

Rift Apart is easily 10x less data complex than a photorealistic game using photogrammetry assets that have highly complex models and highly accurate photographic textures with microdetails.





Who's to say a stylised game can't use the model on the left instead? micro detail isn't the exclusive province of photorealistic graphics design.
 

Guilty_AI

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Apr 12, 2020
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But surely what they say about having to do it that way was within the context of last gen limitations? Now they shouldn't have to do it that way (and possibly be far easier to boot!) with the massively upgraded IO/SSDs in consoles and DirectStorage and RTX IO on PC.

Unless the R&C "swipe" shown at 2:42 in the DF video would still be too jarring for Respawn? It looks at least as good as the example from FO you posted IMO.
No, as i said, rendering two screens is something that taxes the GPU. If they had any easier time to do this in the new gen it was because of the hardware improvements in that area.

What the SSD, IO, whatever helps is streaming assets, aka moving about in the world or transfering from one area to the other (do NOT mix this with the wipe effect, whose challenge is having to render 2 scenes at once). But as i said before, it helps, just like having a more powerful GPU also helps. None of this stuff is new in any way as i clearly showed with plenty of real life examples already. Thats my whole beef here.
 
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JaksGhost

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Feb 25, 2021
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No, as i said, rendering two screens is something that taxes the GPU. If they had any easier time to do this in the new gen it was because of the hardware improvements in that area.

What the SSD, IO, whatever helps is streaming assets, aka moving about in the world or transfering from one area to the other (do NOT mix this with the wipe effect, whose challenge is having to render 2 scenes at once). But as i said before, it helps, just like having a more powerful GPU also helps. None of this stuff is new in any way as i clearly showed with plenty of real life examples already. Thats my whole beef here.
You’re still talking about this game?! Damn.
 
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Fake

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Dec 20, 2018
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I’m going to go out on a limb and say you’re both right but you’re misunderstanding the point. I think Fake Fake was referring to the fact that because of the RT hardware in consoles (and PC Cards), third parties are more likely to make RT a baseline and fundamental piece of their engines moving forward à la Metro Exodus EE.

Obviously, the original game made compromises to accommodate last gen hardware and older PC Cards, and it’s hard to argue games won’t look better when designed to a RTX 2060/6700 XT min spec.

Yeap, and making RT for ultra high end PCs don't push anything foward. Consoles are affordable machines, with modest fixed hardware, so adaptation is the right choise here.

Lets remind the importance of DLSS, the target are not High End PCs, and the Nvidia got this ideia from the countless of checkerboard solutions/temporal injection/reconstruct tech find on video game, not only exclusive, but third parties like Rainbow Six.

If the rumor about the Nintendo Switch PRO indeed support DLSS this prove my point even futher.
 
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HAL-01

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Aug 23, 2016
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If I'm so "full of shit" why wouldn't that be so easy to disprove?
This is a tech thread after all right? Its always the un-informed that claims someone else doesn't know what they are talking about because they can't come up with facts to disprove the other individual.

Me on the other hand....

"On the technical side, as a 3D modeler, you will find that working with stylized models to be a lot simpler and more efficient than photorealistic models. Due to the simple nature of the models and the fact that stylized models rarely tend to strain the CPU compared to photorealistic models, you would find modeling stylized objects to be fun and enjoyable. Your models will also use up less storage space giving you the ability to fit more models in one scene." - Thilakanathan Studios

Here is a comparison of a stylized rock model versus a designed photoreal rock model.
Comparing their ~1024x1024 normal textures. The photoreal comes in at 525kb versus stylized 312kb. Almost double.
This balloons exponentially when you compare them to photogrammetry models.
Your photorealistic rocks ends up being more than 10x geometry and texture more immense than a stylized rock.

Even then stylized rocks require less resolution textures to look good (so 512 and 1024 will suffice) while photorealistic and photogrammetry needs 4-8k textures.
While photorealistic photogrammetry does. Why? The higher the polygon and geometric density, the greater the detail the textures have to have. It needs micro details!

Rift Apart is easily 10x less data complex than a photorealistic game using photogrammetry assets that have highly complex models and highly accurate photographic textures with microdetails.




First of all guy, that’s not a rock. That’s what folks in the business call a “tree stump”

Second of all, neither raw photogrammetry data nor your photorealistic “rock” have ever been used in videogames. All currently used meshes are vastly simplified compared to what you’re showing me. UE5 may change that in the future.

Last, “stylized” can mean anything from Wind Waker to Doom Eternal, to Pixar’s Soul. You cannot make any sweeping claims about all “stylized” 3D content. Either bring damning evidence of the quality of the games assets, or go
 

THE:MILKMAN

Member
Mar 31, 2006
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No, as i said, rendering two screens is something that taxes the GPU. If they had any easier time to do this in the new gen it was because of the hardware improvements in that area.

What the SSD, IO, whatever helps is streaming assets, aka moving about in the world or transfering from one area to the other (do NOT mix this with the wipe effect, whose challenge is having to render 2 scenes at once). But as i said before, it helps, just like having a more powerful GPU also helps. None of this stuff is new in any way as i clearly showed with plenty of real life examples already. Thats my whole beef here.

You keep stating none of this is new stuff but I don't read anyone in this thread claiming that the techniques are new and nor do I hear that in the DF video.
 

staticshock

Member
Jun 24, 2020
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First of all guy, that’s not a rock. That’s what folks in the business call a “tree stump”

Second of all, neither raw photogrammetry data nor your photorealistic “rock” have ever been used in videogames. All currently used meshes are vastly simplified compared to what you’re showing me. UE5 may change that in the future.

Last, “stylized” can mean anything from Wind Waker to Doom Eternal, to Pixar’s Soul. You cannot make any sweeping claims about all “stylized” 3D content. Either bring damning evidence of the quality of the games assets, or go

I referred to that as rock because it has the same geometric complexity.

I never said raw photogrammetry. Games have been using game version of photogrammetry for years. Where have you been? The game ready versions have 10x more geometric and texture complexity than stylized meshes.

I gave you irrefutable evidence from quote from a studio talking about and referencing their stylized and photorealistic scenes if you bothered to read the article. Which I know you didn’t because you are not interested in the truth. This is the experience of 3D modelers.

And it makes logical sense. Stylized meshes have less polygon. You can easily see it. It’s obvious. 1+1 will always be 2. This is basic logic. Not matter what plastic you champion.

I also showed you two game ready assets and compared their data size.

You dismiss them because you are not interested in Facts, Logic and Reason. Just like the people who are still making claims about the UE5 demos even when the creator of Nanite and UE5 team tell them they are wrong.

I think I’m done here. I will however make another post comparing size of Game Ready Photogrammetry asset and textures compared to stylized meshes.
 
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HAL-01

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Aug 23, 2016
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I referred to that as rock because it has the same geometric complexity.

I never said raw photogrammetry. Games have been using game version of photogrammetry for years. Where have you been? The game ready versions have 10x more geometric and texture complexity than stylized meshes.

I gave you irrefutable evidence from quote from a studio talking about and referencing their stylized and photorealistic scenes if you bothered to read the article. Which I know you didn’t because you are not interested in the truth. This is the experience of 3D modelers.

And it makes logical sense. Stylized meshes have less polygon. You can easily see it. It’s obvious. 1+1 will always be 2. This is basic logic. Not matter what plastic you champion.

I also showed you two game ready assets and compared their data size.

You dismiss them because you are not interested in Facts, Logic and Reason. Just like the people so are still making claims about the UE5 demos even when the creator of Nanite and UE5 team tell them they are wrong.

I think I’m done here. I will however make another post comparing size of Game Ready Photogrammetry asset and textures compared to stylized meshes.
No need to go full Ben Shapiro guy, go quote more cgi studios to make arguments about game graphics