• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

DF - Lego Builder's Journey: Ray Tracing Showcase Hits PS5 - PC /Xbox Series X/S

elliot5

Member
Once Unity gets it together and updates HDRP to support RT on Xbox there will be another comparison video prob between the platforms and itll include the patch fix for Ps5 reflections.

Still surprises me its like low/lower than low on console with such a fairly static scene.
 

Black_Stride

do not tempt fate do not contrain Wonder Woman's thighs do not do not
Forgive me what make you think ps5 access to the raytracing via Unity in this game?
Its an HDRP Unity game.
You think the developers invented a new RT technique to replace the Unity implementation....specifically for the PS5?
 

Leyasu

Gold Member
I listened to it, maybe not so carefully.
Someone else has already quoted what was said higher up the page. I skimmed through it during a teams meeting earlier. I just happened to land on the bit where he talks about the xbox versions
 

Darsxx82

Member
It take more than a week. Post edited.
When DF said that the Studio informed them that the bug was solved, the patch had already been released for days. And think about the MS approval time you should discount...

That said, 1 week, 2 or even 3 weeks is nothing like putting off an update for months to implement RT.

All in all, I agree that it is abnormal and worrying that at this point Unity has not received an update for RT on Xbox consoles. Blame MS and praise Sony for bringing updated tools to Unity for PS5.
 

assurdum

Member
Its an HDRP Unity game.
You think the developers invented a new RT technique to replace the Unity implementation....specifically for the PS5?
PS5 has a low API access, you don't need to "invent" a new method. You can access straight to the raytracing more easily; I don't think you are obligated to use Unity for all the graphic. That's why I'm asking.
 
Last edited:

Black_Stride

do not tempt fate do not contrain Wonder Woman's thighs do not do not
PS5 has a low API access, you don't need to "invent" a new method. You can access to raytracing more easily via ps5 tools, I don't think you are obligated to use Unity for all. That's why I'm asking.
Let me get this straight.
You think they chose the Unity engine.
They chose HDRP as a pipeline.
But then went out of their way to NOT use HDRP Raytracing?
 

assurdum

Member
Let me get this straight.
You think they chose the Unity engine.
They chose HDRP as a pipeline.
But then went out of their way to NOT use HDRP Raytracing?
I just say I don't know but why you think it's totally impossible if maybe with the ps5 tools should be possible and easier to have access to it? I have in mind a couple of indie games which use raytracing on ps5 but not on XSX.
 
Last edited:

Black_Stride

do not tempt fate do not contrain Wonder Woman's thighs do not do not
I just say I don't know but why you think it's totally impossible if maybe with the ps5 tools should be possible and easier to have access to it? I have in mind a couple of indie games which use raytracing on ps5 but not on XSX.
Its highly highly highly highly highly unlikely that the developers didnt use HDRP RT.
Why convert a game to HDRP to NOT use HDRP?

Out of curiosity what do you suppose they used to get RT in the game if not Unitys implementation considering it is a Unity game.

Its not like they are the Coalition and will massively extend the engine, the hardest part of the port was most likely changing from URP to HDRP and reissuing any assets that needed conversion as well....turning on RT with HDRP is basically a toggle.
But again you think a smaller developer instead did what to access RT in the Unity engine?
 

assurdum

Member
Its highly highly highly highly highly unlikely that the developers didnt use HDRP RT.
Why convert a game to HDRP to NOT use HDRP?

Out of curiosity what do you suppose they used to get RT in the game if not Unitys implementation considering it is a Unity game.

Its not like they are the Coalition and will massively extend the engine, the hardest part of the port was most likely changing from URP to HDRP and reissuing any assets that needed conversion as well....turning on RT with HDRP is basically a toggle.
But again you think a smaller developer instead did what to access RT in the Unity engine?
I don't know how they have used the raytracing on ps5, but why you think it's unity HDRP and not raytracing via ps5 tools or whatever? I genuinely asking. I'm not a coder but you don't have to use exclusively an engine for everything. Not necessarily you need to be a master of the code if the hardware graphic tools are extremely versatile and easy to use.
If I'm not in mistake I remember to heard some developers say it was quite easier on ps5 to have access to the graphic features with almost just a simple click and that it would explain why indie game with their own engine could put something like the raytracing in a game, as for example The Observer, but not on XSX
 
Last edited:

SF Kosmo

...please disperse...
I have to say the low RT settings don't look radically different to the non RT version. High settings on the other hand look amazing.
 

Black_Stride

do not tempt fate do not contrain Wonder Woman's thighs do not do not
I don't know how they have used the raytracing on ps5, but why you think it's unity HDRP and not raytracing via ps5 tools or whatever? I genuinely asking. I'm not a coder but you don't have to use exclusively an engine for everything. Not necessarily you need to be a master of the code if the hardware graphic tools are extremely versatile and easy to use. If I'm not mistaken I remember to heard some developers say it was quite easier on ps5 to have access to some graphic features with almost a simple click and that it would explain why indie game with their own engine could put something like the raytracing in a game, as for example The Observer, but not on XSX

I believe they used HDRP because the devs said they used HDRP Raytracing.
If im remembering correctly only some of the transparencies were done with RayMarching + HDRP Raytracing.
They specifically talked about how HDRP Raytracing is super easy to implement because its nigh literally simply clicking a toggle to turn it on or off they even showed their editor...its just a tick box. Obviously materials were redone when going for URP to HDRP.
Why they would build a separate solution for PS5 is beyond me.....why you think they did so, is even further beyond me.

^Twas either from GDC or one of the Unity events ill have to look through my HDD to find the whole talk.


P.S Observer uses Unreal Engine 4 and its implementation of Raytracing.
 

elliot5

Member
I don't know how they have used the raytracing on ps5, but why you think it's unity HDRP and not raytracing via ps5 tools or whatever? I genuinely asking. I'm not a coder but you don't have to use exclusively an engine for everything. Not necessarily you need to be a master of the code if the hardware graphic tools are extremely versatile and easy to use.
If I'm not in mistake I remember to heard some developers say it was quite easier on ps5 to have access to the graphic features with almost just a simple click and that it would explain why indie game with their own engine could put something like the raytracing in a game, as for example The Observer, but not on XSX
fyi Observer has RT on XSX now it was just late like this game.

the same team, same engine used for The Medium which doesn't have all the RT features XSX uses either.
 
Last edited:
I noticed some resolution differences in the DF video. Odd that they didn't explain the resolution differences further.

Anyway, it's a gorgeous-looking game! Very beautiful!
 

Darsxx82

Member
Ray tracing so far has been really bad on the series consoles. The PS5 has had several games that showcase it better.
What? Are you serious ? I want to think that it is ignorance about the situation or that you are basing yourself on rare cases where there was a bug or the RT mode was delayed and this comes down to launch games. Except for the incomprehensible case of Sadowruner, XSX has not had problems with RT in games vs PS5 and in fact the reality is that in most cases the XSX version usually has the advantage in RT modes.
I don't know how they have used the raytracing on ps5, but why you think it's unity HDRP and not raytracing via ps5 tools or whatever? I genuinely asking. I'm not a coder but you don't have to use exclusively an engine for everything. Not necessarily you need to be a master of the code if the hardware graphic tools are extremely versatile and easy to use.
If I'm not in mistake I remember to heard some developers say it was quite easier on ps5 to have access to the graphic features with almost just a simple click and that it would explain why indie game with their own engine could put something like the raytracing in a game, as for example The Observer, but not on XSX
The observer was a launch game and was updated with RT later on XSX. In fact now the RT mode in XSX works better.

The fact is that in The Medium, with the same engine and Studio, RT is implemented better in XSX than in PS5 and that the Sony console version was released much later.
Therefore, I do not understand Observer as a similar example as Lego Builder or that proves anything.
 

Black_Stride

do not tempt fate do not contrain Wonder Woman's thighs do not do not
Does it have DLSS on PC? If so, I would skip trying it on console all together.
Twas one of the first games to get DLSS 2.2
And yes the console version is pretty far behind the PC version, its not exactly a twitch shooter so playing it with max visuals is always the best bet.
Id have sacrificed resolution to get more RT features in the game.
 
Last edited:

Anchovie123

Member
The only RT effect that seems noticeable in this game is the RT reflections. They should have aimed for a 60fps RT reflection mode targeting a lower resolution. Although tbh 30fps for a game that doesnt have camera movement really isnt a big deal so idk.
 

elliot5

Member
The only RT effect that seems noticeable in this game is the RT reflections. They should have aimed for a 60fps RT reflection mode targeting a lower resolution. Although tbh 30fps for a game that doesnt have camera movement really isnt a big deal so idk.
Rt shadows are way more drastic
 

assurdum

Member
What? Are you serious ? I want to think that it is ignorance about the situation or that you are basing yourself on rare cases where there was a bug or the RT mode was delayed and this comes down to launch games. Except for the incomprehensible case of Sadowruner, XSX has not had problems with RT in games vs PS5 and in fact the reality is that in most cases the XSX version usually has the advantage in RT modes.

The observer was a launch game and was updated with RT later on XSX. In fact now the RT mode in XSX works better.

The fact is that in The Medium, with the same engine and Studio, RT is implemented better in XSX than in PS5 and that the Sony console version was released much later.
Therefore, I do not understand Observer as a similar example as Lego Builder or that proves anything.
What exactly is incomprehensible about the lack of raytracing on XSX in some game when highly probable it's just about the ps5 kit to be more accessible even for minor developers? So The Medium could have raytracing on XSX at launch but not The Observer because....? From what I knew there wasn't an RT mode on XSX; meanwhile on ps5 some developers claimed that you can toggle raytracing in every game practically with almost a simple switch thanks to the development tools, if the engine is not already extremely heavy for the GPU, obviously.
 
Last edited:

DenchDeckard

Gold Member
So who is to blame e for unity not having raytracing on the series consoles? Is it a Microsoft issue or unity?

I thought it would be down to the engine creator to sort but I am clueless tbh.
 

winjer

Member
It's a really strange situation.
The PC version has Ray-tracing, using DirectX12. So it's obvious that Unity has support for DXR.
On Series X, there are several games with support for RT. So it's probably not some problem with Microsoft's SDK.

Considering that even the PS5 version has a buggy implementation of RT, my guess is that the studio rushed the RT mode. And didn't have time yet to implement RT on the Series S/X.
 

yamaci17

Gold Member
- compares maxed out settings to completely low ray tracing settings on ps5
- logic has left the chat

any rtx gpu user can casually set the rt settings to more viable, medium-high mixed optimized settings and get enormously higher performance than console. most high/ultra settings on PC are enormously unoptimized or implemented for future hardware (pro tip: rtx 3080 is not the super duper future hardware. its current hardware). i bet when matched with console settings, a 2060 would be on par with ps5

same goes for psycho ray tracing settings on cyberpunk.

a simple example,



even then, dlss quality at 4k is almost identical to native 4k so this is just a funny discussion at this point
 
Last edited:

Arioco

Member
So who is to blame e for unity not having raytracing on the series consoles? Is it a Microsoft issue or unity?

I thought it would be down to the engine creator to sort but I am clueless tbh.


I don't think we have enough details to "blame" anyone, but since other developers have implemented RT on Series consoles since launch I would say it's an engine problem. I mean, the hardware clearly supports the feature and the GDK must support it too if we've seen RT techniques in other titles (and we did) , so that leaves us with only the engine to blame. But it's just my speculation, of course.
 

yamaci17

Gold Member
did a small test on my 3070 with console equivalent settings at 1620p (ps5 is at 1662p so it is similar)



obviously dlss is a no brainer and boosts the framete upwards of 70 frames



so at native 1620p compared to ps5, it manages to push 1.7 times more ray tracing performance (which is what you expect from a 3070, for all things considered, as I will prove it below). 3080 would probably handle native 4k 60 fps. then again, there's no need of native 4k when there's DLSS. but that's completely another topic

ps5 ray tracing performance is mostly comparable to 2060s-2070 per most reviewers at this point. this is a given fact. and let's see how 2060s-2070 fares against 3070




so, the demo perfectly scales across GPUs and consoles.

but then, it is easy to skew narrative to your point by pointing out how 3080 renders native 4k 19 fps and call it brutal when it renders full global illumination, maxed out everything (then again, as stated in the video, they look similar to low/medium settings. in short, even if you have a capable rtx gpu, just stick to sane settings and get great framerates, as proven above)
 

Darsxx82

Member
What exactly is incomprehensible about the lack of raytracing on XSX in some game when highly probable it's just about the ps5 kit to be more accessible even for minor developers? So The Medium could have raytracing on XSX at launch but not The Observer because....? From what I knew there wasn't an RT mode on XSX; meanwhile on ps5 some developers claimed that you can toggle raytracing in every game practically with almost a simple switch thanks to the development tools, if the engine is not already extremely heavy for the GPU, obviously.
The incomprehensible thing is to speculate on a basis and examples that crash with what you then see in reality.
First, there is no game on PS5 with RT that does not also have RT on XSX. The fact is that in many cases XSx has an advantage in RT modes, I find it hard to believe that implementing RT in XSX at this point is much more difficult than in PS5 to the point that Studios decide to postpone that mode in the MS console if not for a different reason.
That is, in the end there are only 2 cases where this situation has occurred:

1- In a launch game that was later updated and now the RT mode performs slightly better in XSX even. Same Studio and engine that later launched The Medium with RT trimmed on PS5 vs XSX version...

2- This Lego Buldier where the Studio confirms the reason why in Xseries there is no RT. In a case also where the RT mode on PS5 does not work properly either.

I can even accept that the tools on PS5 to implement RT are better and more accessible than those of XSX, but not to the point that there are Studios that are forced to postpone RT modes in XSX vs PS5 at this point. Otherwise many more cases would have been seen and not only 2 that also have an explanation and is not the "better RT tools on PS5".
 
Last edited:

elliot5

Member
Series S probably. Trying to get the engine running there is possibly too restrictive so limited appeal. Can’t imagine any other reason.
It’s the same API to Unity… that’s not an excuse. The studio can choose to simply not allow RT on series s on the game if that was the issue.
 

Shmunter

Gold Member
It’s the same API to Unity… that’s not an excuse. The studio can choose to simply not allow RT on series s on the game if that was the issue.
Looking at sales, Series S is the majority install base Xbox. Investing in something that most Xbox users cannot use may be a low priority.

We wouldn’t be having this conversation if it were a priority.
 
Last edited:

elliot5

Member
Looking at sales, Series S is the majority install base Xbox. Investing in something that most Xbox users cannot use may be a low priority.

We wouldn’t be having this conversation if it were a priority.
Truly dumb logic. Probably less than 20% of Steam hardware surveyed PCs have RT capability and yet Unity supports RT on PC/DX12. It's just Unity being slow to support the platform within their HDRP. Nothing to do with the Series S itself.
 

Shmunter

Gold Member
Truly dumb logic. Probably less than 20% of Steam hardware surveyed PCs have RT capability and yet Unity supports RT on PC/DX12. It's just Unity being slow to support the platform within their HDRP. Nothing to do with the Series S itself.
Pc’s are always upgraded. Series S will be here for the entire gen.

Rumours of a price drop on S coming. It’s solidified as the default Xbox system for the foreseeable future. Not sure what there is to discuss. People asking why no RT on Xbox, this is the most basic conclusion.
 
Last edited:

elliot5

Member
Pc’s are always upgraded. Series S will be here for the entire gen.

Rumours of a price drop on S coming. It’s solidified as the default Xbox system for the foreseeable future. Not sure what there is to discuss. People asking why no RT on Xbox, this is the most basic conclusion.
The "most basic conclusion" is the literal verbatim words from the developer / engine manufacturer that RT is absent because RT is not supported by Unity for Xbox, not because of a system on the market. Not even sure what rumors of a price drop have to do with engine support either.

Excitingly, Light Brick Studio also told us that they are planning to release this RT mode on Xbox Series consoles later this year, once the Unity engine implements RT support for Xbox.
 

Shmunter

Gold Member
The "most basic conclusion" is the literal verbatim words from the developer / engine manufacturer that RT is absent because RT is not supported by Unity for Xbox, not because of a system on the market. Not even sure what rumors of a price drop have to do with engine support either.


Yes you’re not talking about unity? Thought it was clear it is the entire engine not supporting rt on Xbox, not just the one game.
 

winjer

Member
Truly dumb logic. Probably less than 20% of Steam hardware surveyed PCs have RT capability and yet Unity supports RT on PC/DX12. It's just Unity being slow to support the platform within their HDRP. Nothing to do with the Series S itself.

Almost 30% of Steam users have an RTX card. And then there's RDNA2.

But I agree. No reason not to have RT on Series S/X.
 

yamaci17

Gold Member
steam numbers are bloated with lowend laptops/gpus as well
steam has such a huge library that almost everyone with any kind of hardware can find something to play there, not a bad thing ofc :)
 
Top Bottom