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Analysis [DF] Exclusive - Metro Exodus Enhanced Edition: Xbox Series X|S DF Tech Review

Tripolygon

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Path Tracing is beyond these consoles and not worth bringing up.

Yes it is.
Path Tracing is not beyond these consoles. The first demo of Ray Tracing on XSX was Path Tracing. Idk if you noticed but that demo is running on a GTX1060.

Secondly it’s not as cut and dry as you or that video makes it. As with everything when rendering, it comes down to what you are doing. Calculating reflection for mirror surface is cheaper than calculating reflection for rough surfaces and materials, that is why roughness cutoff is always used to prevent rt calculation for majority of materials in games. If you also factor in recursion the cost increases drastically.
 
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Spidey Fan

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Path Tracing is not beyond these consoles. The first demo of Ray Tracing on XSX was Path Tracing. Idk if you noticed but that demo is running on a GTX1060.

Secondly it’s not as cut and dry as you or that video makes it. As with everything when rendering, it comes down to what you are doing. Calculating reflection for mirror surface is cheaper than calculating reflection for rough surfaces and materials, that is why roughness cutoff is always used to prevent rt calculation for majority of materials in games.
Me trying to understand this.
Head Explode Reaction GIF by MOODMAN
 

SlimySnake

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They could've locked the game at 30 fps and it would easily run at 1080p or even above in some cases. They chose frame rate over resolution though. Framerate is king?
See my post on the last page. 512p is only 500k pixels so double that is 1 million pixels which is just around 720p, maybe 768p. You are not gonna quadruple your resolution by cutting down your framerate by half.

Now other areas in the game where there isnt much foliage and indoor areas, sure but as we saw in the video, as soon as the fighting started even in indoor areas you saw drops below 60 fps because even 512p wasnt able to handle it. So you would have a game that runs at around 1080p 30 fps with nothing going and 720p 30 fps during action. It's still not going to be 1080p 30 fps in the forest area and during combat when the resolution drops to 512p.
 
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mckmas8808

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Nah, I am with Stuart on this. Those other games are just doing ray traced reflections. This game is literally built around ray tracing. Every single light source is ray traced. That is way more computationally expensive than ray traced reflections which are at times completely missing from scenes depending on the setting. For example, Ratchet has levels that are wide open fields. No glass or reflective surfaces in sight. The only thing the game uses ray tracing for in those levels is ratchet's suit and clank's body and robotic enemies if you run into them. That's it.

For Metro, it doesnt matter if you are in a tight corridor or in a wide open field, ray tracing is working 100% of the time. It's used for lighting, it's used for shadows, it's used for AO.

When UE5 first demo'd the PS5 last year, they were using software based GI. They were able to hit 1440p 30 fps. This year, they added support for hardware accelerated GI using persumably the ray tracing hardware in the PS5. The resolution was cut down to 1080p. RT GI is simply not needed this gen.

I agree with the bolded. Lets just remember to add the "GI" to then end of raytracing. Yall are right, RT GI is super hardware intensive and not needed now.
 
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93xfan

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44 seconds loading time??? And I wouldn't even be surprised to hear the PS5 version doesn't fare much better.
Seriously, wtf is this?

You failed to mention that it shaves off two full minutes over the last gen version.

Btw, does anyone know if the initial load is longer than loading from a save?
 
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Bernd Lauert

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See my post on the last page. 512p is only 500k pixels so double that is 1 million pixels which is just around 720p, maybe 768p. You are not gonna quadruple your resolution by cutting down your framerate by half.

Now other areas in the game where there isnt much foliage and indoor areas, sure but as we saw in the video, as soon as the fighting started even in indoor areas you saw drops below 60 fps because even 512p wasnt able to handle it. So you would have a game that runs at around 1080p 30 fps with nothing going and 720p 30 fps during action. It's still not going to be 1080p 30 fps in the forest area and during combat when the resolution drops to 512p.
As someone else said, it depends on where the bottleneck is. RT hits both GPU and CPU, and 60 fps also hits both way harder than 30 fps. It might not be a solid 1080p but it would be pretty close. I'm still glad they prioritized framerate though.
 
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Tripolygon

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Me trying to understand this.
Lol. I promise you it’s not that difficult to understand. I don’t have any game development background. Just an enthusiast like most of us on this forum so I pick up a thing or two over the years from developers who are here, watching DF, GDC talks, Siggraph etc.
 

vaibhavpisal

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As someone else said, it depends on where the bottleneck is. RT hits both GPU and CPU, and 60 fps also hits both way harder than 30 fps. It might not be a solid 1080p but it would be pretty close. I'm still glad they prioritized framerate though.

Just rewatched video at 1080p. I think iq is well with in my acceptable limit. Much better than one s version.

Glad they went with 60 fps.
 

Spidey Fan

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Lol. I promise you it’s not that difficult to understand. I don’t have any game development background. Just an enthusiast like most of us on this forum so I pick up a thing or two over the years from developers who are here, watching DF, GDC talks, Siggraph etc.
I tried to watch one of those videos. Well this was me after the video.
Baby Reaction GIF
 
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I'll bet 4A Games devs cursed Phil Spencer and XSS left and right when they've developed a patch for it.


heh they already did, kinda

caused quite the ruckus in forums over last months

"“Our current renderer is designed for high spatial and temporal resolution. It is stochastic by nature. Dropping any of those would require us to do more expensive calculations dropping performance even further. We have a compromise solution right now, but I am not satisfied with it yet.”

compromise solution seems to be 512-864p...
 
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Negotiator101

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Path Tracing is not beyond these consoles. The first demo of Ray Tracing on XSX was Path Tracing. Idk if you noticed but that demo is running on a GTX1060.

Secondly it’s not as cut and dry as you or that video makes it. As with everything when rendering, it comes down to what you are doing. Calculating reflection for mirror surface is cheaper than calculating reflection for rough surfaces and materials, that is why roughness cutoff is always used to prevent rt calculation for majority of materials in games. If you also factor in recursion the cost increases drastically.
Why do you think almost every next gen console game only has raytraced reflections? It's the least performance intensive. The video is quite clear and a clear indication of what I said. And where is that patch for Minecraft? Path Tracing on any modern game engine is impossible on these consoles. RTGI is as I said before more computationally expensive than any other form of ray tracing (Path Tracing excluded for the reasons I gave above).
 

SF Kosmo

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Been playing the PC Enhanced version, it's really gorgeous.

This is really the first big game optimized entirely for RT lighting. Usually they have to light scenes differently or in fake ways to make them look right with more limited rendering models but with RT there's the whole "it just works" thing, which is really going to make life a lot easier for artists.
 

Riky

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heh they already did, kinda

caused quite the ruckus in forums over last months

"“Our current renderer is designed for high spatial and temporal resolution. It is stochastic by nature. Dropping any of those would require us to do more expensive calculations dropping performance even further. We have a compromise solution right now, but I am not satisfied with it yet.”

compromise solution seems to be 512-864p...

just like any other aaa games such as;

- ac valhalla (720-810p mostly, rarely 864p)
- wd legion (675-810p mostly, rarely 864p)
- cyberpunk (1080p 30 fps, would probably require 540-720p @60 fps so they omitted performance mode for now [both ps5 and xbox renders at 1200-1440p 60 fps gracefully because they actually can)
- fh 5 nextgen graphics mode at1080p 30 fps. performance mode at 60 fps will mostly downgrade the game to the xbox one s levels.
- some yakuza games at 810-900p 60 fps

this is just the beginning, 480-540p will literaly be the standard for this console in 2023-2024 aaa games

You forgot to mention the fidelity modes for Valhalla and Watch Dogs, I wonder why.
Cyberpunk hasn't got a native Series S version yet and runs fine even now, the other figures you just made up.
You also made up the FH5 settings, nobody has seen the One S or Series S versions.
You forgot the fidelity mode on Yakuza like a Dragon as well.
I've played all these games bar FH5 on Series S and they all look fine on a 1080p TV.
As does Metro as the average resolution is nearer 900p, it looks pretty nice on my 1080p set.
If you care about resolution then firstly you should get a Series X instead, it has the highest resolution of all the next gen consoles.
If you have a Series S and care about resolution then most games offer a fidelity mode at a lower framerate.
 
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DarkMage619

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You forgot to mention the fidelity modes for Valhalla and Watch Dogs, I wonder why.
Cyberpunk hasn't got a native Series S version yet and runs fine even now, the other figures you just made up.
You also made up the FH5 settings, nobody has seen the One S or Series S versions.
You forgot the fidelity mode on Yakuza like a Dragon as well.
I've played all these games bar FH5 on Series S and they all look fine on a 1080p TV.
As does Metro as the average resolution is nearer 900p, it looks pretty nice on my 1080p set.
If you care about resolution then firstly you should get a Series X instead, it has the highest resolution of all the next gen consoles.
If you have a Series S and care about resolution then most games offer a fidelity mode at a lower framerate.
We know why those games are ignored and why they conveniently ignore developers who speak positively about the XSS and more importantly ignore customers who like the device. I really wish there was a way to mark the comments from people who talk about the XSS when don't own the device or know what they are talking about. That way we would know nothing they say should be taken seriously. Although they can be pretty easy to spot once they start talking. So odd that a low end console would trigger so many people that are unaffected by its existence. It really is quite amazing.
 

Silent Viper

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Obviously not it´s a 1080p mostly and MS says 1440p but in this game that´s the max resolution with temporal reconstruction to 1080p. Not even 1080p native or temporal reconstruction from there. I assume it´s running with RT so the S with RT is not a 1080p machine?
MS and Sony says lot of things
to sell their products people should not believe them blindly.

Series S is 1080p console. It can do 1440p in some games but its 1080p machine
 
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dcmk7

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We know why those games are ignored and why they conveniently ignore developers who speak positively about the XSS and more importantly ignore customers who like the device. I really wish there was a way to mark the comments from people who talk about the XSS when don't own the device or know what they are talking about. That way we would know nothing they say should be taken seriously. Although they can be pretty easy to spot once they start talking. So odd that a low end console would trigger so many people that are unaffected by its existence. It really is quite amazing.
There is no need to derail the thread into conspiracy theories.

This thread is about the Digital Foundry video analysis of the Metro Exodus enhanced edition.

You clearly don't like their findings, so why even be in the thread if only interested in derailing?
 
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Spidey Fan

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There is no need to derail the thread into conspiracy theories.

This thread is about the Digital Foundry video analysis of the Metro Exodus enhanced edition version.

You clearly don't like their findings, so why even be in the thread if only interested in derailing?
You are ignoring that 60 fps target with RT, and focus more on the 500+p. It can do 30 fps at higher resolution, but it went for 60 fps. That should tell you how strong that console is. People just generally likes to shit on it, while conveniently, ignore other things.
 

Riky

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We know why those games are ignored and why they conveniently ignore developers who speak positively about the XSS and more importantly ignore customers who like the device. I really wish there was a way to mark the comments from people who talk about the XSS when don't own the device or know what they are talking about. That way we would know nothing they say should be taken seriously. Although they can be pretty easy to spot once they start talking. So odd that a low end console would trigger so many people that are unaffected by its existence. It really is quite amazing.

It's the same 2-3 fanboys every time, they say the same things every time. When you're buying a £249 console that is actually cheaper new than the last gen consoles still then you know you're not getting the premium experience, there is a trade off somewhere either in framerate or resolution.
Most Series S owners probably don't care and just wanted a cheap entry point.
Compared to last gen in this case you are still getting massively improved load times, Ray Traced GI and twice the framerate.
 

dcmk7

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You are ignoring that 60 fps target with RT, and focus more on the 500+p. It can do 30 fps at higher resolution, but it went for 60 fps. That should tell you how strong that console is. People just generally likes to shit on it, while conveniently, ignore other things.
I'm one of the studios staunchest supporters. I think they did a terrific job with the framerate.

The resolution and the pop-in are eye opening though, there really is no getting around that.

Would you personally rather they had dropped the framerate down to 30? And improve the IQ?
 

Spidey Fan

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I'm one of the studios staunchest supporters. I think they did a terrific job with the framerate.

The resolution and the pop-in are eye opening though, there really is no getting around that.

Would you personally rather they had dropped the framerate down to 30? And improve the IQ?
I would personally think, they should just drop RT for Series S. That console is too early for RT, just like how base Ps4, and X1 can't do 4k 60 fps.

The console is for casuals, and I doubt RT would improve their experience. I am playing X1S on a crappy TV, same on base Ps4. And I have good view for gears 5 and spiderman, GOW. I doubt RT would make my experience Wow. The tech is at early stage, and its waste for a console like that.
 

DarkMage619

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There is no need to derail the thread into conspiracy theories.

This thread is about the Digital Foundry video analysis of the Metro Exodus enhanced edition.

You clearly don't like their findings, so why even be in the thread if only interested in derailing?
I am perfectly fine with their findings. They proved yet again that a $300 device can do raytracing and run at 60fps something no console could do last generation. Pretty sure no $300 device can match its performance. Figured you'd be the first one to cheer the XSS on seeing how not too long ago you were agreeing with the sentiment that all XSS games should have raytracing. Alas you are here making disingenuous comparisons to the Switch instead. I'd like to say I'm shocked but nah it's par for the course. The only conspiracy here are the lies people tell about the XSS imagining false benchmarks and taking cheapshots. Will never understand why.
 

dcmk7

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I am perfectly fine with their findings. They proved yet again that a $300 device can do raytracing and run at 60fps something no console could do last generation. Pretty sure no $300 device can match its performance. Figured you'd be the first one to cheer the XSS on seeing how not too long ago you were agreeing with the sentiment that all XSS games should have raytracing. Alas you are here making disingenuous comparisons to the Switch instead. I'd like to say I'm shocked but nah it's par for the course. The only conspiracy here are the lies people tell about the XSS imagining false benchmarks and taking cheapshots. Will never understand why.
You're not fine with it.

You suggested that everyone who talks about XSS, must prove they have the console to begin with, and have a verified badge next to each of their posts.

I really wish there was a way to mark the comments from people who talk about the XSS when don't own the device or know what they are talking about. That way we would know nothing they say should be taken seriously

Something that FrankWza FrankWza was ridiculed for!!

You don't like the analysis, ok then just ignore the thread, no need to derail with stupid forum suggestions and weird accusations.

In past 6 months you have already called this studio lazy, so just ignore them and their games. For your own mental health?
 
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That should tell you how strong that console is. People just generally likes to shit on it, while conveniently, ignore other things.

I see, it is strong for RT. Awesome

I would personally think, they should just drop RT for Series S. That console is too early for RT, just like how base Ps4, and X1 can't do 4k 60 fps.

The console is for casuals, and I doubt RT would improve their experience. I am playing X1S on a crappy TV, same on base Ps4. And I have good view for gears 5 and spiderman, GOW.

But now XSS isn't so strong, so, they should just drop RT.

I doubt RT would make my experience Wow. The tech is at early stage, and its waste for a console like that.

Actually, RT exists for a 2 decades ( IIRC, it was showed fully in Enemy Territory Quake Wars 15 years ago ), but there was no such powerful hardware until 3 years ago when Nvidia announced 1st RT cards for wider consumer market.
 
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rofif

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Did they fix the hdr? Washed out on pc.

Btw series s should not exist. It's not cheap enough to be worth having to minimize to it
 
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Something_something

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Shut up, bro. Series S is a beast! 💪🏼

Do we know if it uses performance boosting full RDNA 2 features like SFS, VRS, VSS, PKS, mesh shaders? If it did it Series S would be doing 8K.
Yeah, indeed. There's still room for improvement though; if they manage to include a magical SSD, it could be able to outperform high end ampere cards and deliver the best visuals ever witnessed with ease.
 
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Epic Sax CEO

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A good example why this low powered Virgin was a mistake.
For games that use the current/old technology, to play older generation games, it's enough, but for next generation games that will rely on RT it simple don't have enough power. Worse, the existence of the Virgin may hold back development a bit.
 

DaGwaphics

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It's the same 2-3 fanboys every time, they say the same things every time. When you're buying a £249 console that is actually cheaper new than the last gen consoles still then you know you're not getting the premium experience, there is a trade off somewhere either in framerate or resolution.
Most Series S owners probably don't care and just wanted a cheap entry point.
Compared to last gen in this case you are still getting massively improved load times, Ray Traced GI and twice the framerate.

The little box is running a game at 60fps with RTGI, I figured everything on the system with any type of RT would be at 30fps. Another clasic example of me not knowing how any of this works LOL, but a pleasent surprise. I am really looking forward to seeing how UE5 runs on the little box (and the other engines with the hybrid software/hardware GI solutions coming up). There's just something more interesting about seeing these games crammed onto the little box, it's like watching some of the lowspecgamer vids. Overall the IQ has been surprisingly good IMO.

If IQ is everything to you, clearly the XSS isn't your box. If you just want a nice small console to sit on a desk with a 1080p montior it seems like it is delivering so far.

<rant>I had one on order, but those bastards at Walmart cancelled it because I used different billing/delivery addresses (even though I'd used the same delivery address in the past), those bastards. :messenger_tears_of_joy: If I snag another one, I'll just have to be on high alert to fend off any porch pirates. </rant>
 

Spidey Fan

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The little box is running a game at 60fps with RTGI, I figured everything on the system with any type of RT would be at 30fps. Another clasic example of me not knowing how any of this works LOL, but a pleasent surprise. I am really looking forward to seeing how UE5 runs on the little box (and the other engines with the hybrid software/hardware GI solutions coming up). There's just something more interesting about seeing these games crammed onto the little box, it's like watching some of the lowspecgamer vids. Overall the IQ has been surprisingly good IMO.

If IQ is everything to you, clearly the XSS isn't your box. If you just want a nice small console to sit on a desk with a 1080p montior it seems like it is delivering so far.

<rant>I had one on order, but those bastards at Walmart cancelled it because I used different billing/delivery addresses (even though I'd used the same delivery address in the past), those bastards. :messenger_tears_of_joy: If I snag another one, I'll just have to be on high alert to fend off any porch pirates. </rant>
gamestop has it now. go before its gone.
 

Spidey Fan

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I went to my local GS this morning, but everything was already sold when I got there. They didn't have as many as some of the GS stores had, I think the guy said they got 7 XSX and 3 XSS.
Mine had it. I have the money, but I live with my parents supporting them, and I am saving for my bachelor college, so I couldn't buy it. It was my only chance to get actual series X or Series S. That is get for being poor guy. I wish i had a rich job.
 

DarkMage619

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You're not fine with it.

You suggested that everyone who talks about XSS, must prove they have the console to begin with, and have a verified badge next to each of their posts.



Something that FrankWza FrankWza was ridiculed for!!

You don't like the analysis, ok then just ignore the thread, no need to derail with stupid forum suggestions and weird accusations.

In past 6 months you have already called this studio lazy, so just ignore them and their games. For your own mental health?
That's pretty funny because DF didn't compare XSS to the Switch, you did. DF doesn't constantly make up arbitrary metrics for the XSS to make it look bad, you do. DF gives credit to the XSS for it meeting expectations for its target, you don't. So again no I have no issues with DF's analysis at all. $300 box doing work no cheaper console is? That's a win.

Frank doesn't have the XSS and you don't either but Frank isn't here trash talking, you are. If the question is do I have a problem with people making up crap about the XSS to score fanboy points? Yes I do. That has nothing to do with DF at all. No need for misdirection.