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Death Stranding - November 8-2019

Jon Neu

Banned
"It is better to be simple and complex than deep and shallow."

There is absolutely nothing "smart" about Metal Gear.

-One of the most complex and revolutionary games ever.

-Nothing smart about it.

giphy.gif
 

Ma-Yuan

Member
Anyone has an idea how big the bridge baby gonna be for the collectors edition? Kojima showed a life sized version on twitter but I also saw videos with a tiny version . . . Wouldn't like another MGSV Situation where the real size version is Japan exclusive and NA and Europe get the tiny loser Edtion : -/
 
-One of the most complex and revolutionary games ever.

-Nothing smart about it.

giphy.gif
Taken on its own, this is an opinion.

You see a game that is "complex". I see a game that is simple and poorly written. It gives you loads of ways to do one thing, but only a handful of things to actually do. It has decent ideas at the core of its narrative, but the actual execution of those ideas is beyond amateur, and the awful acting doesn't do it any favour. From 4 onwards, it was just a mess.

As for revolutionary... how, exactly? What has the series given us that has shaped the design of the games that come since?
 

Roni

Gold Member
Ad hominems are not an argument.

I'm past trying to argue with you, you're clearly here to disrupt the thread.

You've already flip-flopped a bunch of times on the reason why you're here.

At first it was trying to understand, then it was trying to understand WHY, then you vanish for a couple of days and, by chance, forget to quote the people who were last engaging with you only to start it all over again with new users.

Now you're explicitly going after Kojima, something you said previously wasn't your point at all.

And you also seem to be completely unaware of the man's legacy and impact. Something that can be accomplished with a simple Google search.

So I'm making a statement after very carefully analysing your behavior through extensive contact with you: you're out of touch with reality on this topic and should look to educate yourself further.
 
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I'm past trying to argue with you, you're clearly here to disrupt the thread.

An inaccurate assumptions, but whatever works for you.

I'm still waiting for someone... anyone... to make a good faith argument about the quality of his work and the trailer that doesn't fall back on ad hominems.

It's the same old fallback of "well, others like it so it must be good". I'm not asking about the nebulous "other people's" opinion. I'm asking about the viewpoint of the people in this forum.

Have people lost the ability to elucidate their own options or something?

At first it was trying to understand, then it was trying to understand WHY, then you vanish for a couple of days and, by chance, forget to quote the people who were last engaging with you only to start it all over again with new users.

I "vanished for a couple of days" because I have a life outside of the Internet. I spent the entire weekend offline with my partner. I am not spending every waking minute of my day eying up a thread on. What an odd observation to focus on.

Not sure what your last bit is about. I didn't "start up with new users". I responded to someone that had previously responded to me.

Now you're explicitly going after Kojima, something you said previously wasn't your point at all.

I'm not "going after Kojima". I am criticising the quality of his work. Which was my point from the very first post.

And you also seem to be completely unaware of the man's legacy and impact.
I am fully aware of what other people think of his works. I'm not looking for past people's input in his work. I'm asking for the imput of the people in this thread - as is the purpose of a discussion forum.

you're out of touch with reality on this topic and should look to educate yourself further.
Ad hominems are not an argument.
 
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Clear

CliffyB's Cock Holster
if a creator makes a series of games which are all universally praised by critics and sell extremely well, then the onus is on the critic to demonstrate why, essentially the entire "world" is wrong and they are right.

Speaking for myself, I find pretty much the entirety of Nintendo's output uninteresting. I don't buy their games anymore because I know they aren't catering to my tastes, but I'd never be so arrogant to tell people who do enjoy them/rate them highly that they are categorically wrong for holding their opinions.

I could explain in boring detail precisely why I hold my views, because I have my reasons, but I just accept that sometimes I encounter things that I have zero time for, despite being -by all objective measures- really very good indeed.
 
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Great post, Clear.

Speaking for myself, I find pretty much the entirety of Nintendo's output uninteresting. I don't buy their games anymore because I know they aren't catering to my tastes...
That's awesome. You've developed your own personal opinion on a subject based on your own observations, weighing the positive and negatives from the subject in question from your own perspective.

But are you wrong because "their games are universally praised by critics and sell extremely well"? No. Of course not. Because it's simply an opinion.

but I'd never be so arrogant to tell people who do enjoy them/rate them highly that they are categorically wrong for holding their opinions.
At no point have I ever said that anyone is "categorically wrong". Not in a single sentence that I've written on the thread so far. I've said I completely disagree with them, and asked them to explain why they feel the way they do, but I've never said that they're "wrong".

I could explain in boring detail precisely why I hold my views, because I have my reasons...
That would be great. I am always happy to see that. It's exactly what I'm looking to hear from people. Why they like his work.
 

Roni

Gold Member
I'm not following.

That's an opinion I stated.

Yeah, in opposition to the established consensus. And going by the great post Clear made, using your own words, the onus is on the critic to demonstrate why.

So do please demonstrate how there is absolutely nothing smart about Metal Gear.
 

SaucyJack

Member
No, I find it hard to comprehend why people like his games, or see anything good in this one. It's legitimately baffling to me.

That’s distinction without a difference.

You are basically saying exactly what I said. You find it hard to comprehend why people have a different opinion to you.
 

KOMANI

KOMANI
I don’t know why anyone is attacking Ivory. He just wants to know why you like Kojima games that’s a little more than, “they’re amazing!”.

Even Clear gets it.

This would have been less dramatic if someone had just said, “I think Kojima does this, this, and that really well” etc
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
I don’t know why anyone is attacking Ivory. He just wants to know why you like Kojima games that’s a little more than, “they’re amazing!”.

Even Clear gets it.

This would have been less dramatic if someone had just said, “I think Kojima does this, this, and that really well” etc

Because he's the type of person that will "debate" or argue against your opinion. Like really........does he not honestly understand why people like Kojima games? He's been a gamer since MGS1 and STILL doesn't know why? :pie_thinking:
 

KOMANI

KOMANI
Because he's the type of person that will "debate" or argue against your opinion. Like really........does he not honestly understand why people like Kojima games? He's been a gamer since MGS1 and STILL doesn't know why? :pie_thinking:
If ivory is a troll, and look, I don’t know if he is or isn’t, then I apologize. I still think Clear did the best job handling his question.
 
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Jon Neu

Banned
Taken on its own, this is an opinion.

You see a game that is "complex". I see a game that is simple and poorly written. It gives you loads of ways to do one thing, but only a handful of things to actually do. It has decent ideas at the core of its narrative, but the actual execution of those ideas is beyond amateur, and the awful acting doesn't do it any favour. From 4 onwards, it was just a mess.

As for revolutionary... how, exactly? What has the series given us that has shaped the design of the games that come since?

Metal Gear Solid was a revolutionary masterpiece, it's not an opinion, but a fact. It's one of the most trascendental and important videogames ever made and it's going to be remembered forever, just like Mario, Tetris or Final Fantasy. It was one of the first videogames that taught the public that videogames could be more than just for kids. It shaped videogames by allowing them to be cinematic and adult themed.
 

Mista

Banned
So apparently there’s no game over screen in the game. From the games pager over at PlayStation.com

There is no traditional ‘game over’ state in Death Stranding. Lose your life during combat and you’ll find yourself in an upside-down realm, searching for a way back to the living. Choose your combat methods carefully, as killing your foe is > almost never the solution – and every death carries a consequence.
 

Fake

Member
So apparently there’s no game over screen in the game. From the games pager over at PlayStation.com
Actually is a second life. I guess you'll lost a life if you die on limbo as well. Act like a second chance.
 

Mista

Banned
Actually is a second life. I guess you'll lost a life if you die on limbo as well. Act like a second chance.
Yes but no traditional “snake? Snaake? SSSSNNNAAAAKKKKEEEE!!” Screen. Looking forward to see the consequences of dying
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Metal Gear Solid was a revolutionary masterpiece, it's not an opinion, but a fact. It's one of the most trascendental and important videogames ever made and it's going to be remembered forever, just like Mario, Tetris or Final Fantasy. It was one of the first videogames that taught the public that videogames could be more than just for kids. It shaped videogames by allowing them to be cinematic and adult themed.

*No lies detected*
 

Jon Neu

Banned
Via N4G: A member from Insomniac Games gives insight to the tech used in Death Stranding....lots of Tweets.



Wrong thread, but someone can post it in the Digital Foundry one so whatever.


Amazing stuff.

And the most impressive part is that they have made this game in less than 3 years.
 

Breakage

Member
I just realised there are no explictly sexualised female characters this time round. Makes me wonder if Kojima was troubled by the Western reaction to MGSV's Quiet.
 

RedVIper

Banned
I just realised there are no explictly sexualised female characters this time round. Makes me wonder if Kojima was troubled by the Western reaction to MGSV's Quiet.

Oh don't worry twatter has already been bitching that one of the girls is called fragile and some girl gets licked in the trailer.
 

Breakage

Member
Oh don't worry twatter has already been bitching that one of the girls is called fragile and some girl gets licked in the trailer.
I must have missed that. Still I suspect there won't be anything comparable to the discussions about Quiet's character design.
Really feels as if Kojima is playing it safe on this occasion.
 

vpance

Member
I must have missed that. Still I suspect there won't be anything comparable to the discussions about Quiet's character design.
Really feels as if Kojima is playing it safe on this occasion.

Could still have some pervy stuff, who knows. It's just been teaser trailers so far.

On a related note, I think he recast Stefanie with Margaret. Probably for acting ability and more Hollywood cred.
 
"It is better to be deep and simple than shallow and complex."

There is absolutely nothing "smart" about Metal Gear.
Why do these people try to make their opinion seem objective when it's not based on several factors such as general consensus from both gamers and critics alike? Instead of trying to make yourself look like a moron for going against the dominant consensus, why don't you just admit that Kojima and his games are not your cup of tea?

I'm sick and tired of listening to these low-quality opinions about my Sensei
floyd.png
 

Mista

Banned
Why do these people try to make their opinion seem objective when it's not based on several factors such as general consensus from both gamers and critics alike? Instead of trying to make yourself look like a moron for going against the dominant consensus, why don't you just admit that Kojima and his games are not your cup of tea?

I'm sick and tired of listening to these low-quality opinions about my Sensei
floyd.png
He stated that he likes MGS up to Snake Eater and didn't like whats after. Saying that the series isn't actually smart is what I disagree on. Other than that? Its up to him to like and dislike what he wants
 

Clear

CliffyB's Cock Holster
Even Clear gets it.

Cheers, fuckface!

Seriously though, the point I was making is that once a series achieves a certain level of sustained success, you simply can no longer argue that it has no value, even if you yourself can't see any.

The only exception to this I'd say are instances where the popularity is based on a cult of personality, where the "work" is less important than the artist. So, for instance, its not unreasonable to be dismissive of the music produced by a teeny pop idol who's basically trading on his/her sex-appeal to a target demographic.

So, back on topic, although Kojima does have something of a cult following, his multi-decade popularity has to be almost exclusively based on his products, and as we have the experimental "control" represented by the critical majority/consensus, its safe to conclude that its his work, not his auteur status is what's keeping him relevant and in-demand as a creative.

As to what the appeal of his work is; well I'd imagine its due to him being a great exponent of mixing eastern and western influences, and having a distinctive authorial voice in spite of marshalling budgets on par with corporate AAA products.

In short. he makes idiosyncratic blockbusters, big games with broad commercial appeal that deviate from the cookie-cutter template we've grown accustomed to. As to the precise nature of the appeal, you either see it or you don't, and no dialectic map is going to make it any easier to find or appreciate.
 
I think people got it stuck in their head that "a Hideo Kojima game" means it was made by him alone. I've never seen anyone else being praised or burned for a title as an individual.

Its a team effort, Kojima has an idea, has obviously high input in what the game will be but there are story board tellers, script writers, character development writers. I really find it laughable that people think Kojima himself just holds all the strings and he comes up with everything. If that were the case, DS would be another 10 years in development.

Thats like saying Gabe Newell created HALF-LIFE. No, his company Valve did. Gabe didn't write the story, he didn't create the characters.
 
Metal Gear Solid was a revolutionary masterpiece, it's not an opinion, but a fact. It's one of the most trascendental and important videogames ever made and it's going to be remembered forever, just like Mario, Tetris or Final Fantasy. It was one of the first videogames that taught the public that videogames could be more than just for kids. It shaped videogames by allowing them to be cinematic and adult themed.
I'm not a huge fan of the franchise at all, but I absolutely agree with this.
 
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Mista

Banned
I've asked No Word Count No Word Count to please elaborate several points he made in a previous post but I never got a response.

Post #453: https://www.neogaf.com/threads/death-stranding-november-8-2019.1483654/page-10

He's welcome to a discussion if he wants one. No wasting time pointing out "ad hominems" though, since it has nothing to do with Hideo Kojima and the quality of his games.
He finds it terrible which we don’t. He thinks after MGS3 the series is a mess and on that we disagree too. It’s okay lad, his opinion won’t change ours and if he doesn’t wanna elaborate then just ignore.

Made a thread especially for this. Come over
 
I've asked No Word Count No Word Count to please elaborate several points he made in a previous post but I never got a response.

Post #453: https://www.neogaf.com/threads/death-stranding-november-8-2019.1483654/page-10

He's welcome to a discussion if he wants one. No wasting time pointing out "ad hominems" though, since it has nothing to do with Hideo Kojima and the quality of his games.
Thanks for the link.

Insanely busy week, so I haven't been able to give the time for detailed replies to as many posts as I would have liked. I'm up early this morning though and have a few hours to spare, so I'll answer this as best as I can.

Hopefully with this reply you'll see that I'm actually discussing this topic in good faith.

-----

I'm not entirely sure how I can elaborate more on the acting being bad than I already have, but I will try my best.

Easily the most offending culprit in this regard in the trailer is Sam. I know Reedus is capable of far greater range as an acting than what is shown here, but so far every single line delivery comes across as your typical generic action lead - pretentiously gruff, monotone in delivery and lifeless in expression.

It's like a poor man's Snake. And Snake's voice had already become a parody of itself the further into the series we got. So that's saying a lot.

Everyone else in the trailer (except maybe Mads Mikkelson) sounds utterly bored, as if they're barely even interested in delivering their lines. It's just a load of badly delivered exposition dumps with caricatured personalities that don't speak or emote like any real people does.

It could certainly be argued that this is a case of a trailer trying to cram in too much, but this has been a recurring issue in all of Kojima's work, so I'm not expecting any miracles there.

Regarding my comment that "the writing is as subtle as a brick to the face", this is referring to the fact that the trailer is trying to present what it thinks is a deep, meaningful message to the viewer, but it goes out of its way to spell it all out to you, in the most overbearing fashion possible, that it comes off as laughably amateurish as a result.

I legitimately laughed my ass off when I heard the lead character's name.

There is very little room for interpretation or analysis of any of Kojima's work, because every single "nuance" of it is spelt out to you over hour long cutscenes. This has been a recurring issue with almost all of Kojima's stuff, and from what I've seen in the trailer, its apparent to me that little has changed in that regard here.

This is what I was referring to when I said that just because something is complex, it doesn't actually make it deep. I strongly believe that when Kojima didn't have Tomokazu Fukushima doing all of the heavy lifting for him anymore, the quality of his writing went from amateur to "dived off a cliff" bad. He had nobody to reign in his worst writing and design habits. That's why I think every game after 3 is an utter mess.

Now, I would love to hear your thoughts on what I just said, as well as your opinion on why you think the game looks good to you! So far, beyondI haven't yet seen a single person respond to my initial post with any sort of critique of what we've actually seen.
 
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KOMANI

KOMANI
Cheers, fuckface!

Seriously though, the point I was making is that once a series achieves a certain level of sustained success, you simply can no longer argue that it has no value, even if you yourself can't see any.

The only exception to this I'd say are instances where the popularity is based on a cult of personality, where the "work" is less important than the artist. So, for instance, its not unreasonable to be dismissive of the music produced by a teeny pop idol who's basically trading on his/her sex-appeal to a target demographic.

So, back on topic, although Kojima does have something of a cult following, his multi-decade popularity has to be almost exclusively based on his products, and as we have the experimental "control" represented by the critical majority/consensus, its safe to conclude that its his work, not his auteur status is what's keeping him relevant and in-demand as a creative.

As to what the appeal of his work is; well I'd imagine its due to him being a great exponent of mixing eastern and western influences, and having a distinctive authorial voice in spite of marshalling budgets on par with corporate AAA products.

In short. he makes idiosyncratic blockbusters, big games with broad commercial appeal that deviate from the cookie-cutter template we've grown accustomed to. As to the precise nature of the appeal, you either see it or you don't, and no dialectic map is going to make it any easier to find or appreciate.
You’re welcome, dick.

 

KOMANI

KOMANI
Thanks for the link.

Insanely busy week, so I haven't been able to give the time for detailed replies to as many posts as I would have liked. I'm up early this morning though and have a few hours to spare, so I'll answer this as best as I can.

Hopefully with this reply you'll see that I'm actually discussing this topic in good faith.

-----

I'm not entirely sure how I can elaborate more on the acting being bad than I already have, but I will try my best.

Easily the most offending culprit in this regard in the trailer is Sam. I know Reedus is capable of far greater range as an acting than what is shown here, but so far every single line delivery comes across as your typical generic action lead - pretentiously gruff, monotone in delivery and lifeless in expression.

It's like a poor man's Snake. And Snake's voice had already become a parody of itself the further into the series we got. So that's saying a lot.

Everyone else in the trailer (except maybe Mads Mikkelson) sounds utterly bored, as if they're barely even interested in delivering their lines. It's just a load of badly delivered exposition dumps with caricatured personalities that don't speak or emote like any real people does.

It could certainly be argued that this is a case of a trailer trying to cram in too much, but this has been a recurring issue in all of Kojima's work, so I'm not expecting any miracles there.

Regarding the comment that "the writing is as subtle as a brick to the face", this is referring to the fact that the trailer is trying to present what it thinks is a deep, meaningful message to the viewer, but it goes out of its way to spell it all out to you, in the most overbearing fashion possible, that it comes off as laughably amateurish as a result.

I legitimately laughed my ass off when I heard the lead character's name.

There is very little room for interpretation or analysis of any of Kojima's work, because every single "nuance" of it is spelt out to you over hour long cutscenes. This has been a recurring issue with almost all of Kojima's stuff, and from what I've seen in the trailer, its apparent to me that little has changed in that regard here.

This is what I was referring to when I said that just because something is complex, it doesn't actually make it deep. I strongly believe that when Kojima didn't have Tomokazu Fukushima doing all of the heavy lifting for him anymore, the quality of his writing went from amateur to "dived off a cliff" bad. He had nobody to reign in his worst writing and design habits. That's why I think every game after 3 is an utter mess.

Now, I would love to hear your thoughts on what I just said, as well as your opinion on why you think the game looks good to you! So far, beyondI haven't yet seen a single person respond to my initial post with any sort of critique of what we've actually seen.
Did you also notice that everyone in the trailer is crying at some point? It makes the actual action meaningless if everyone is doing it.

I’m a huge Fukushima proponent, but I think it goes beyond losing Tomokazu. But saying that, there was a Ghost Babel interview years back where Kojima thought the story was too dark. It’s a funny statement considering that MGS4’s Drebin B&B codec calls are like bad Ghost Babel villain exposition. Then there’s Ground Zeroes, which brings darker tones to the forefront. Although Fukushima is gone and at Japan Studios, his influence can be seen in later installments.
 
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