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News David Cage: Many Devs Will Prefer Ray Tracing @1080p Rather Than Limited Lighting @4K; We’ll Have a New Engine

DustQueen

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Oct 7, 2020
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I am sorry. But Cage committed the worst crime against humanity since Hitler. I do not understand why he Is walking free and allowed to share his opinions.



He should be in prison awaiting electrical chair or something....







I mean HE IS the one who wrote ending to Indigo Prophecy...
 

Tchu-Espresso

likes mayo on everthing and can't dance
Apr 14, 2006
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Playing TLOU 2 and ratchet and clank in 1080p on my OG PS4 and 65 inch Lg CX OLED still looks per damn good to me.
 
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InDaGulag

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Oct 9, 2020
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You know what i want, that i've been promised FOREVER. Worlds that are persistent and full of life...its 2020 and i'm still walking though huge swaths of nothingness on many games and dealing with AI that is dumb as fuck. Tone down a pixel or two and make the games smarter.

Sorry my friend, but 4K, ray tracing, 8K textures, etc. are just easier to sell in a trailer and images.

So that’s where the money is directed in most cases.
 
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Agent_4Seven

Member
May 6, 2012
3,596
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Detroit looks absolutely mind-blowing on PC and it does not even have RT or next-gen stuff they're working on for their next-gen engine. Moreover, character models and facial animations are second to none in Detroit. Can't wait to see what's next.
 
Nov 22, 2019
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Eventually something was going to break. People hyping up these 500 dollar consoles as 120fps, 4k, full ray tracing beasts.

What you are going to get is impressive performance in these early titles not pushing hardware and first party studios who are tech wizards. In about a year we will be back at 30fps, checkerboard 4k and partial ray tracing.

The good news is, more folks get tired of it and the pc community continues to grow.
 
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Masterbrew

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Feb 20, 2014
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disagree on polycount being solved problem. Realisticly each triangle needs to cover 8 pixels to get good performance which is large area considering how small details they are trying to represent. As such its also problem for lods. Unreal 5 shows good way forward in this regard.


What's the issue with triangles and pixel sizes? I'd like to learn more.
 

OSC

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Jun 16, 2018
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I have to disagree, I have a 4k tv and everything that's FHD looks like shit, I demand 4k60fps, fuck ray tracing if needed
I've never had a blu ray look like shit. 4k can do perfect scaling of 1080p content, zero artifacts. 1080p 50 inch and 60 inch tvs look very good.
As long as there is a good solution for upscaling, like checkerboarder rendering, I'll agree. Native 1080 looks bad on a 4K TV, so I don't want that.
You know many 4k blurays are merely upscales. 1080p blu rays look excellent on 4k tvs.

TV resolution chart
 

danielJackson

Banned
Jun 18, 2020
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That's great news. 4K is a waste of resources. 1080/1440p should be the target for the best next gen visuals.

I look forward to his next game l enjoyed Detroit.

Indeed. I still use 1080p TV and so do most of people I know.

Native 4k is retarded on consoles.

Good that PS5 devs arent forced to do 4k, unlike xbox devs whom get the easiest route by making game 4k on X and just drop the resolution for S.

IF you are targeting 60FPS - Viable on the PC. Consoles aren't strong enough.

STOP trolling about consoles all the time.

They havent been even released, so it is still a mystery what they are capable of

If you arent experienced enough to understand basics of video game graphics then I will teach you:

There isnt one version "1440p/60fps +RT", you know?

Same as saying "consoles cant run games on 8k", it is also false. They could, but games could be 2D games etc.

So it could be possible to get 1440p+60fps+RT on consoles, but at lower detail and Limited RT. They are strong enough depending of the details.

AKA they dont have to run on ultra detail like on PC, now you should know it :)
 
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Starfield

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Aug 13, 2015
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i do not wanna see 1080p games on XSX/PS5...

its looks VISIBLY blurry/soft on a big 4k TV. Have yet to see Raytracing add anything to a game, SSR works well enough for majority of cases. RT Global illumination is one that makes biggest difference to me but i think thats by far the most expensive?
Thats where to problem resides. "looks blurry on my 4ktv"

People are being literally guarded like sheep into the 4k stable so the general population will or will be accepted as the new standard. If everyone would still use 1080p as the norm but with much better visuals noone would complain. Now you have the Film industry, game industry and streaming industry all making or forcing 4k as the new go to standard.

Well it all makes sense. If you buy a TV or PC monitor that is in 1080p you wouldn't buy a new one Every few years or so. TV producers wouldnt make any profit anymore (they already compensate that by building tv with parts that purposely fault after a few years of use) but that isn't enough. But hey, now we have this shiny new FOUR Kay TV blink blink. Oh and it only costs barely more than your 1080p TV that you bought 2 years ago. What a steal!

And hooray 4k is the new norm. PC industry isn't that flexible. Change usually takes longer and wont be accepted for a long time but even that is changing now.
 

namekuseijin

Nintendo is for soys and kids. But my tears about them are for men.
Jun 10, 2020
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in other words, linear cinematic adventures in hiperrealistic 1080p 24fps graphics as usual
 

MiguelItUp

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Feb 24, 2015
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I could certainly see that depending on the use of RT. But I dunno, why not just shoot for 1440 and call it a day? Lol. :)
 

Lethal01

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Jun 15, 2019
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1080p is a rubbish resolution for next gen, period. Unless you’re talking about a low-end system like the XSS, in which case you probably have no choice if you enable RT. For flagship consoles that’s pathetic and no amount of lighting will make up for it. What a load of nonsense.

Good lighting is 10x more impactful on a game looking good that 4x the pixels.
 

Clear

Deer/Dur
Feb 2, 2009
12,495
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Detroit looks absolutely mind-blowing on PC and it does not even have RT or next-gen stuff they're working on for their next-gen engine. Moreover, character models and facial animations are second to none in Detroit. Can't wait to see what's next.

Detroit is all-round really good. Easily the best thing of its type in existence. That people still bag on Cage is kinda sad, especially given how despite the game offering tons of opportunity for being irritatingly politicized and pc-scolding the focus is kept admirably on the storytelling.

Its also visually stunning on PS4pro, and maintains that overall quality far more consistently than older QD titles, which had a tendency to vary a lot polish-wise from sequence to sequence.
 
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Oct 14, 2010
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Ah yes, David "Gameplay is a failure of the Gamedesigner" Cage.
I cant wait for the next Shower/Rape Scene in his next "Game" to be extra shiny with RT.

It was "game overs" not "gameplay" and he was talking about narrative games specifically.
 

SF Kosmo

...please disperse...
Jul 7, 2020
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Say what you will about the writing in QD's games, they know how to make some impressive visuals. Interesting to see them getting into the middleware game. That probably means being less Sony-first
 
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Krappadizzle

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Say what you will about the writing in QD's games, they know how to make some impressive visuals. Interesting to see them getting into the middleware game. That probably means being less Sony-first

All their games have released on PC, so I'd say you are probably onto something.
 

Three

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Oct 26, 2014
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As always these modern devs dont give a fuck about framerate, who cares if you can look at your reflection in a puddle.
I do. Would add to multiplayer. Imagine seeing an enemy in the reflection of a window. Adds to gameplay more than 120fps to me. Unlike most people obsessed with fps I don't pretend to be a ninja that can tell the 3ms difference apart. I'm sure even now people can't because they never mention the lag differences between the current gen consoles.
 
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yurqqa

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Jun 16, 2010
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Most of the next gen topics are like men arguing what is sexier - legs, ass or boobs.

And then somebody mentions soul and thoughts and gets "FUCK OFF" from everyone.
 
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MilkyJoe

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Yep, let's exchange 4k/60 very high for 1080/30 medium, i can tolerate jaggies and shimmer to see reflections in the odd tea pot.
 
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CAB_Life

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Good lighting is 10x more impactful on a game looking good that 4x the pixels.

That’s completely your opinion though. Crispness, clarity and detail come with resolution, not lighting (though that obviously helps to illuminate a scene, or to highlight lights and darks), and those are aspects of an image that most people notice first—hence the focus on it and/ or reconstruction to trick the eye into seeing a higher resolution image.

I think the sensible thing to agree upon is that lighting, performance, AA, AF and resolution all combine to produce an incredible image. I don’t see the purpose of shortchanging on one of those areas and expecting another to pick up the slack, which is what David is implying in his quote.

Baked illumination looks great and will continue to serve us for another generation if this upcoming gen—clearly—isn’t ready for proper RT.
 

MilkyJoe

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I've never had a blu ray look like shit. 4k can do perfect scaling of 1080p content, zero artifacts. 1080p 50 inch and 60 inch tvs look very good.

You know many 4k blurays are merely upscales. 1080p blu rays look excellent on 4k tvs.

TV resolution chart

Errr according to my sitting distance, my TV size and your chart, I can't tell the difference between 1080 and 4K... Is this a cataracts chart?
 

OSC

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Jun 16, 2018
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Errr according to my sitting distance, my TV size and your chart, I can't tell the difference between 1080 and 4K... Is this a cataracts chart?
I've put blade runner blu ray and blade runner 4k blu ray on a 55 inch tv. 1080p is quite sharp and very good, 4k is slightly sharper, but it is nothing to cry home about.

Remember when you go to the cinema they blow up the 4k image to dozens of meters and it still looks good, even sitting close. A 1080p image on 55 inch has higher pixel per inch density than a cinema screen.
 
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MilkyJoe

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I've put blade runner blu ray and blade runner 4k blu ray on a 55 inch tv. 1080p is quite sharp and very good, 4k is slightly sharper, but it is nothing to cry home about.

Remember when you go to the cinema they blow up the 4k image to dozens of meters and it still looks good, even sitting close. A 1080p image on 55 inch has higher pixel per inch density than a cinema screen.

See an optician
 
Feb 25, 2012
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There's too little said about TV's & monitor's in this sort of debate, i.e. someone's experience at 1080p is going to be drastically different based upon the type of TV they have & (yes) how much it cost. Modern budget (hilariously called "budget when they're 500 euros) 4k tv's aren't a good idea for 1080p video games. They make older games look blurry as hell.
I don't think this make much sense : sure, a cheap TV Is hoping to have a cheap scaler, but a next generation console will handle the scaling by itself feeding the TV with a 4k image indipendently from the source resolution , as long as you don't actively choose to send a signal of inferiore resolution. So, a 2k game should look far better on these poor tvs if played on a PS5 or Xsx than on a PS4/XOs
 
Nov 5, 2017
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I've put blade runner blu ray and blade runner 4k blu ray on a 55 inch tv. 1080p is quite sharp and very good, 4k is slightly sharper, but it is nothing to cry home about.

Remember when you go to the cinema they blow up the 4k image to dozens of meters and it still looks good, even sitting close. A 1080p image on 55 inch has higher pixel per inch density than a cinema screen.

Yea and? A 144p phone screen has more pixels per inch than than a 1080p image on a 55 inch tv. Go watch a youtube video on your phone at 144p and tell me how awesome it looks.

Also movies have tons of bokeh, motion blur and aren't filled to the brim with jaggies.
 

Yoboman

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Sep 17, 2005
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Amazing seeing Sony fans accept 1080p for next gen when they were dissing the Series S lol. But Ray-tracing is taxing so I can see why it wouldn't be in 4k.
You do realise he is a third party developer now right?

And 1080p with PS5/XSX hardware is a whole different game to Series S
 
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Kerotan Frog

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I like what I'm hearing from him. I can't wait for his next game. I loved Detroit to death. Easily one of my GotG.
 
Jul 29, 2013
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Nah, 1440p is the best compromise for PS5 and XSX unless we're talking performance modes. During cross-gen we'll see lots of native 4K, but in the long run I'd expect a base resolution around 1440p.
 

Dave_at_Home

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Jun 19, 2020
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I have no problem with 1440P or just about any other resolution for that matter. I'm sick of all the pixel-peeping bullshit. Pivoting to Digital Foundry for a moment. They do nice work, but got damn does all of it stir up such pointless nagging. I think it would be great if consoles games going forward made the effort for multiple picture options.
  • 1080p - max RT
  • 1080p - max frames
  • 1440p - sweet spot
  • 4k - max resolution
  • Or just fuck it and let console users change graphic settings to their liking. Make it more PC like or don't. I dunno. Just bullshitting.
 

the_master

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That’s completely your opinion though. Crispness, clarity and detail come with resolution, not lighting (though that obviously helps to illuminate a scene, or to highlight lights and darks), and those are aspects of an image that most people notice first—hence the focus on it and/ or reconstruction to trick the eye into seeing a higher resolution image.

I think the sensible thing to agree upon is that lighting, performance, AA, AF and resolution all combine to produce an incredible image. I don’t see the purpose of shortchanging on one of those areas and expecting another to pick up the slack, which is what David is implying in his quote.

Baked illumination looks great and will continue to serve us for another generation if this upcoming gen—clearly—isn’t ready for proper RT.
The test is that you can play a real life video at 480p and see how much more realistic it looks than a current gen game at 16K
Render quality is not about resolution. More resolution is needed when games can push the renderer further and can display more detail than the resolution allows.

Next gen consoles (and current pc hardware) don't seem to be ready to push the visual fidelity to require 4K. Even worse, by outputting at 4k we waste the power we need for rendering.
Then raytracing comes in and destroys performance. We are one generation too early to make proper use of ray tracing. Said so, I expect some clever uses of RT by the end of the gen. And then a real change when the next next gen with full raytracing comes in.
 
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OSC

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See an optician
20/20 At 6ft of distance one's sharper, but the other one ain't blurry.

If I'm seeing something sharp and you're seeing it blurry, maybe it's you who needs an optician.
Yea and? A 144p phone screen has more pixels per inch than than a 1080p image on a 55 inch tv. Go watch a youtube video on your phone at 144p and tell me how awesome it looks.

Also movies have tons of bokeh, motion blur and aren't filled to the brim with jaggies.
Stop exaggerating. I have youtube on tv, and can also put ps4 games there, 1080p doesn't look that much worse than 4k. The ps5 is a different beast, the 4k videos do look notably better than the 1080p stream, but that might have had low bitrate.