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Cyberpunk 2077 Aims To Be A “Benchmark” For The Industry Like The Witcher 3 Was, Says Level Designer

IbizaPocholo

NeoGAFs Kent Brockman

In the latest issue of EDGE magazine (issue 348, September 2020), Level Designer Max Pears talked about the game, and what the developers want to achieve. He says there’s something of a competition within themselves to outdo what they’ve done before, specifically the success of The Witcher series that largely put the company on the map. The Witcher 3, specifically, they see as a benchmark for the industry, and they want the same for 2077.

“I mean, there’s no bad blood or ill will towards any other studios or any other games because everyone in this industry moves the medium forward together. But especially coming from The Witcher 3, which was such a huge success with such a great world that people spent hours exploring, it’s very much a competition and a different understanding within ourselves as a team. We’ve set the benchmark already in one previous game, and we’re trying to always do the same. So it’s about always going through and trying to make things better, but it’s also understanding that there is a difference and asking how we push those differences to being a benefit. But yeah, we’re always trying to make genre-defining and groundbreaking games.”
 

GlockSaint

Member
Witcher 3 was pretty damn epic, thats why.

Sadly the setting in cyberpunk doesnt interest me. Give me Witcher 4 in medieval times.
See that's why i don't get it, it's way way different that what they've done before and honestly looks generic. Everytime i saw footage of it my hype decreased.
 

Madflavor

Member
See that's why i don't get it, it's way way different that what they've done before and honestly looks generic. Everytime i saw footage of it my hype decreased.

Generic? The game oozes style, and from we've seen, it's environments vary wildly. You've got the hot, dirty and rustic look of the Badlands. The slick, clean and high tech corporate environments. And the brightly colored neon streets of Night City. How does it look generic?
 

RPSleon

Member
h5aYSqk.png
 

SJRB

Gold Member
What a random bump.

Complexity, variety, verticality and clutter combined with outstanding visual design. Looking just at a city itself, it's an amazing achievement. I tried playing Fallout 4 and GTA V after Cyberpunk and the difference is just striking and makes it hard to go back.
No no no you're supposed to say "LOL CDPR" and "BENCHMARK FOR GARBAGE AMIRITE".
 
Complexity, variety, verticality and clutter combined with outstanding visual design. Looking just at a city itself, it's an amazing achievement. I tried playing Fallout 4 and GTA V after Cyberpunk and the difference is just striking and makes it hard to go back.

It's true, as far as designing environments for you to go around murdering, hacking or being stealthy in it might be a new benchmark. If they can fix their glitches, AI and make the open world more interactive/less stupid... man... I just really hope this game eventually becomes everything it should have been, the things it does so VERY right are getting overlooked right now.
 

GHG

Gold Member
Complexity, variety, verticality and clutter combined with outstanding visual design. Looking just at a city itself, it's an amazing achievement. I tried playing Fallout 4 and GTA V after Cyberpunk and the difference is just striking and makes it hard to go back.

Fallout 4's open world is trash, its not really a great point of comparison. Having areas that are dense in an open world is not what I'd call good "level design". I'd argue that the likes of the Dishonoured series, Prey, the modern Hitman games and even Deus Ex: MD are better from a level design standpoint although they are hub based.

Level design is not just about how the game world looks, its about the interaction opportunities it opens up for the player and how the game world makes those opportunities apparent through structure and visual design. You're talking about open world design which is a different thing entirely.

Yes there are multiple routes into buildings/areas in this game (dependant on how you've specced your character) but on a level by level basis (if we are to split each area into a "level") overall there are less options and interactivity options than many other games it takes cues from.

If it managed to match the aforementioned games while being open world then it would set a new benchmark but as it stands it's nothing remarkable from that point of view and doesn't offer up anything more than a more recent watch dogs title for example.
 
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Fallout 4's open world is trash, its not really a great point of comparison. Having areas that are dense in an open world is not what I'd call good "level design". I'd argue that the likes of the Dishonoured series, Prey, the modern Hitman games and even Deus Ex: MD are better from a level design standpoint although they are hub based.

Level design is not just about how the game world looks, its about the interaction opportunities it opens up for the player and how the game world makes those opportunities apparent through structure and visual design. You're talking about open world design which is a different thing entirely.

Yes there are multiple routes into buildings/areas in this game (dependant on how you've specced your character) but on a level by level basis (if we are to split each area into a "level") overall there are less options and interactivity options than many other games it takes cues from.

Three of the games you named have incredibly similar design philosophies to Cyberpunk, part of why I love the level design in Cyberpunk is it evokes games like Dishonored, Prey and Deux Ex. I greatly disagree with you that it is in any way lesser than those games it takes cues from on the design front. Even random side areas not part of the main missions are up to the standards of the game you listed. Do you actually have significant time invested in the game? Are you simply basing this on some of the main story missions, there's at least a few main story missions that are designed in a much more linear fashion but as someone with over 200 hours in the game I can tell you it has more of the complex level design areas that I loved from those games than maybe all of them combined?
 
Fallout 4's open world is trash, its not really a great point of comparison. Having areas that are dense in an open world is not what I'd call good "level design". I'd argue that the likes of the Dishonoured series, Prey, the modern Hitman games and even Deus Ex: MD are better from a level design standpoint although they are hub based.

Level design is not just about how the game world looks, its about the interaction opportunities it opens up for the player and how the game world makes those opportunities apparent through structure and visual design. You're talking about open world design which is a different thing entirely.

Yes there are multiple routes into buildings/areas in this game (dependant on how you've specced your character) but on a level by level basis (if we are to split each area into a "level") overall there are less options and interactivity options than many other games it takes cues from.
I don't which part of my comment you don't understand. I was talking about the city design in an open world game.

Cyberpunk always offers multiple ways to approach a situation. It's on par with games that you listed despite being completely open world, which in itself is another great achievement.
 

geary

Member
So CP2077 is like this game? and this game is GoTG?
/s
Here everyone praises TW3, but i havent see so much praise on launch...


 

GHG

Gold Member
Three of the games you named have incredibly similar design philosophies to Cyberpunk, part of why I love the level design in Cyberpunk is it evokes games like Dishonored, Prey and Deux Ex. I greatly disagree with you that it is in any way lesser than those games it takes cues from on the design front. Even random side areas not part of the main missions are up to the standards of the game you listed. Do you actually have significant time invested in the game? Are you simply basing this on some of the main story missions, there's at least a few main story missions that are designed in a much more linear fashion but as someone with over 200 hours in the game I can tell you it has more of the complex level design areas that I loved from those games than maybe all of them combined?

I've spent 40 hours with the game, which incidentally is more than the amount of time I've spent with many of the titles mentioned in my previous post.

Are you going to tell me I need to spend 100+ hours with it to see something I've not seen thus far?

I can flat out tell you that you'd be talking nonsense if you're going to claim this game matches Arkane's recent efforts from a level design standpoint.

I don't which part of my comment you don't understand. I was talking about the city design in an open world game.

Cyberpunk always offers multiple ways to approach a situation. It's on par with games that you listed despite being completely open world, which in itself is another great achievement.

It really doesn't. Having a rooftop entrance, a gap in a fence that can be jumped, a door that needs a certain level in either tech or body to open along with a standard main entrance in every area does not constitute "good level design". There is nothing inventive there and overall the areas don't offer up much in the way of allowing players to think outside the box. Once you've seen one area that needs to be cleared in some way you've pretty much seen the design pattern that is consistent across all of them.
 
It really doesn't. Having a rooftop entrance, a gap in a fence that can be jumped, a door that needs a certain level in either tech or body to open along with a standard main entrance in every area does not constitute "good level design". There is nothing inventive there and overall the areas don't offer up much in the way of allowing players to think outside the box. Once you've seen one area that needs to be cleared in some way you've pretty much seen the design pattern that is consistent across all of them.
You just described Prey, Hitman and Dishonored.

What else do you expect?
 
I've spent 40 hours with the game, which incidentally is more than the amount of time I've spent with many of the titles mentioned in my previous post.

Are you going to tell me I need to spend 100+ hours with it to see something I've not seen thus far?

I can flat out tell you that you'd be talking nonsense if you're going to claim this game matches Arkane's recent efforts from a level design standpoint.



It really doesn't. Having a rooftop entrance, a gap in a fence that can be jumped, a door that needs a certain level in either tech or body to open along with a standard main entrance in every area does not constitute "good level design". There is nothing inventive there and overall the areas don't offer up much in the way of allowing players to think outside the box. Once you've seen one area that needs to be cleared in some way you've pretty much seen the design pattern that is consistent across all of them.

I dunno, I'm just not sure you're arguing this stuff in good faith. When it comes to Arkane... stuff like the time travel level or the building that basically re-arranges itself is pretty high tier level design but it's not as though the entire game was as well done as those. Part of why I like Cyberpunk so much is it's not broken up, anyways, it's fully open. Prey is my fav game of 2017, it exceeds the Dishonored games for me because it's all connected and you can go all the way to the beginning at any time if you want, great stuff, clearly not as open as CP2077 but it's got a natural feel to how you progress as well as ways to sequence break especially with the gloo gun. I beat Prey 5 times so I feel confident in my determinations here, I do think CP2077 is at least in spitting distance of Prey's level/world design. For me what makes design in games like these so special is having so many different ways of play work fine in the same area, and that proves out in CP2077, 40 hours might be enough to beat the campaign if you don't do much side content, but I'm over 200, because I've had 3 chars so far and have actually tried different ways of doing most things there is to do in the game... but I'm still going! I get people being upset with CP2077 for its bugs, unfinished state and promises not delivered on... nevermind its state on consoles... but for its level design? Nope, you're barking up the wrong tree.
 
You just described Prey, Hitman and Dishonored.

What else do you expect?


He didnt. Cyberpunk usually has a gap in the sidewall t hats visible from the moon and some window open on top. Its very telegraphed and simplistic. You should play Deus Ex or Thief. No, not the eidos montreal games. I said Deus Ex, there only one game by that title. The original. There you have this large, realistic area where if you dont want to enter a building through the front door you can explore the suroundings and maybe somewhere in the back alleys, hidden there will be a fenced door that you can use your hacking skills to open or you can maybe do some deals with some junkie there and he'll give you the code if you arent proficient at hacking. Then you'll climb the elevator shaft and open the doors on the last floor. Or maybe you will climb on top of a nearby building, turn on your speed and jump augmentations and jump from roof to roof, observe a skywindow and snipe your target from there and then you will jump onto an adjacent buildings balcony and enter a random apartment so you can escape.

This is the sort of amazing level design and options that are cool, not in your face standard gap in the wall a little to the left or the all present airvent
 
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GHG

Gold Member
You just described Prey, Hitman and Dishonored.

What else do you expect?

Let me give you an example in the first couple of hours in the game that sets the tone...

Let me tell you for a fact that if I need to get up to the 42nd floor in a building in any of those games mentioned in not going in through the front door and taking the elevator up.

For a start at least you'd be given the opportunity to think outside the box and do it whatever way you please in those other games. And that's what makes them so great, everyone has a completely different story for how they got into certain areas or how they completed different missions. In this game you're looking at 3 or 4 different methods (if you even have an option) at best. If you played those games as if you're limited on options like you are in Cyberpunk then I really don't know what to say.

I dunno, I'm just not sure you're arguing this stuff in good faith. When it comes to Arkane... stuff like the time travel level or the building that basically re-arranges itself is pretty high tier level design but it's not as though the entire game was as well done as those. Part of why I like Cyberpunk so much is it's not broken up, anyways, it's fully open. Prey is my fav game of 2017, it exceeds the Dishonored games for me because it's all connected and you can go all the way to the beginning at any time if you want, great stuff, clearly not as open as CP2077 but it's got a natural feel to how you progress as well as ways to sequence break especially with the gloo gun. I beat Prey 5 times so I feel confident in my determinations here, I do think CP2077 is at least in spitting distance of Prey's level/world design. For me what makes design in games like these so special is having so many different ways of play work fine in the same area, and that proves out in CP2077, 40 hours might be enough to beat the campaign if you don't do much side content, but I'm over 200, because I've had 3 chars so far and have actually tried different ways of doing most things there is to do in the game... but I'm still going! I get people being upset with CP2077 for its bugs, unfinished state and promises not delivered on... nevermind its state on consoles... but for its level design? Nope, you're barking up the wrong tree.

My 40 hours has mostly consisted of doing side content so far.
 
There you have this large, realistic area where if you dont want to enter a building through the front door you can explore the suroundings and maybe somewhere in the back alleys, hidden there will be a fenced door that you can use your hacking skills to open or you can maybe do some deals with some junkie there and he'll give you the code if you arent proficient at hacking. Then you'll climb the elevator shaft and open the doors on the last floor. Or maybe you will climb on top of a nearby building, turn on your speed and jump augmentations and jump from roof to roof, obserbe a skywindow and snipe your target from there and then you will jump onto an adjacent buildings balcony and enter a random apartment so you can escape.
You just described Cyberpunk 2077.
 

GHG

Gold Member
Wait, do you seriously not believe you can do all that in Cyberpunk? 40 HOURS DEEP INTO IT?

You can't.

I grinded to get pretty much all of the legendary augmentations. You simply cannot do all of the things mentioned. At best you can charge jump or double jump to gain extra vertical opportunities and/or there will be some door to open somewhere but everything else mentioned? No.
 
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You can't.

I grinded to get pretty much all of the legendary augmentations. You simply cannot do all of the things mentioned. At best you can charge jump or double jump to gain extra vertical opportunities and there will be some door to open but everything else mentioned? No.

WTF are you talking about? Did you even read his example?
 

GHG

Gold Member
WTF are you talking about? Did you even read his example?

Yeh I did.

I'm sure thankful for all the useful random NPC junkies in Cyberpunk that will give me codes if I go and talk to them.

I also really enjoyed gaining access to the elevator shaft and climbing it during the heist mission.

Then there was that time I decided to scale this tall building from the outside using my blade arms, that was fun too.

I also love the fact that if you gain access to the ventilation system for any building in Cyberpunk you can get access and sneak your way in that way.

Oh wait, sorry, you can't do any of that.
 
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Show us an example then. If you're right then surely there will be some footage of someone completing missions or areas in inventive ways like you can in the other games mentioned.

You clearly haven't played enough of it. You played each mission / gig once and in your mind the way you played it is the only way that the mission can be played.

Example: An Inconvenient Killer
  • Multiple points of entry - check (main entrance and service elevator that's not obvious at first);
  • Multiple ways to reach the target - check (distract guard and use the door to VIP room or find secret pathway along vents on the first floor, past security)
  • Multiple ways to deal with the target - check (gun him down or talk him into leaving the city);
Or you can just fuck the system and enter gun blazing / katana wielding. Or you can decide no to enter at all, just hack camera system, find target and hack him to commit suicide. Or you can do it Agent 47 style and snipe him from a far as he's in VIP room behind a huge glass window then leave undetected. Or you can be non-lethal but still complete the task by knocking down your target and taking him outside.

In the same "level" there's optional conversation that you can have with the bartender. Optional rooms that you don't have to visit that contain great loot and some backstory on computer terminals.

Now please tell me how is that different from "the other games mentioned".
 
Yeh I did.

I'm sure thankful for all the useful random NPC junkies in Cyberpunk that will give me codes if I go and talk to them.

I also really enjoyed gaining access to the elevator shaft and climbing it during the heist mission.

Then there was that time I decided to scale this tall building from the outside using my blade arms, that was fun too.

I also love the fact that if you gain access to the ventilation system for any building in Cyberpunk you can get access and sneak your way in that way.

Oh wait, sorry, you can't do any of that.

Is there any possibility you could maybe prove you've played it? Where did you play it? Do you have a Steam name, PSN, something? Can we see your achievements/trophies? This all reads like you haven't actually played the game. Like, dude, let's say I've got a mission to assassinate someone, he's in the second floor of a building in a locked room... I can literally use my hacking skill to murder him without ever entering the building.

Here's a video of mine, look at the size of this place, the number of options available and it's just a Gig... it's completely missable content, in the games we mentioned something this complex would be a mandatory piece of game to play in a session to complete it...


 

GHG

Gold Member
Is there any possibility you could maybe prove you've played it? Where did you play it? Do you have a Steam name, PSN, something? Can we see your achievements/trophies? This all reads like you haven't actually played the game. Like, dude, let's say I've got a mission to assassinate someone, he's in the second floor of a building in a locked room... I can literally use my hacking skill to murder him without ever entering the building.

Here's a video of mine, look at the size of this place, the number of options available and it's just a Gig... it's completely missable content, in the games we mentioned something this complex would be a mandatory piece of game to play in a session to complete it...




Here you go darling, just for you:

Qji7rgo-Zi4.jpg


The Steam playtime doesn't match my actual in-game playtime (and achievements were disabled) because I tried a performance mod that ultimately did nothing but i never bothered to change it back because I don't care enough for achievements.

You clearly haven't played enough of it. You played each mission / gig once and in your mind the way you played it is the only way that the mission can be played.

Example: An Inconvenient Killer
  • Multiple points of entry - check (main entrance and service elevator that's not obvious at first);
  • Multiple ways to reach the target - check (distract guard and use the door to VIP room or find secret pathway along vents on the first floor, past security)
  • Multiple ways to deal with the target - check (gun him down or talk him into leaving the city);
Or you can just fuck the system and enter gun blazing / katana wielding. Or you can decide no to enter at all, just hack camera system, find target and hack him to commit suicide. Or you can do it Agent 47 style and snipe him from a far as he's in VIP room behind a huge glass window then leave undetected. Or you can be non-lethal but still complete the task by knocking down your target and taking him outside.

In the same "level" there's optional conversation that you can have with the bartender. Optional rooms that you don't have to visit that contain great loot and some backstory on computer terminals.

Now please tell me how is that different from "the other games mentioned".

So that's:
  • Just 2 ways to enter the building
  • Just 2 ways to reach the target once in
In a hand crafted mission. I rest my case.
 
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So that's:
  • Just 2 ways to enter the building
  • Just 2 ways to reach the target once in
In a hand crafted mission. I rest my case.
You rest your case because you don't have any arguments. Let's not be mistaken here.

And no, there's no just 2 ways to reach the target. There's also another side door that's guarded by a bouncer. You can hack him and slip trough there. Or you can simply shoot the window and double jump inside, ninja style.

But there's no air-condition ventilation that you can climb trough so the level design sucks. Because having a vent is somehow a pinnacle of level design. Give me a break.

Do your homework first, then we can have an informed discussion. 💅
 
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Lesson for the future: Level designers, kindly shut your trap. Another CDPR developer assured people delays were necessary to deliver a 10/10 game.

Precious second lesson for the future: shut your trap, only talk about that which you work on, only when PR tells you to, only what PR approves of.
 
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