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Opinion Crysis Remastered is the perfect benchmark for the next-gen consoles

VFXVeteran

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Then you don't understand it. The code runs natively on the CPU (x86 is x86, it's all the same and explicitly designed to be compatible), and runs a hell of a lot faster than it does on last-gen, it just can't make use of any new instruction sets added specifically to the newer consoles. GPU code equally goes through hardware abstraction (API and driver), just like on PC, so that they can replace the GPU at any time with an equivalent or more powerful one and won't have to recompile the game to add support for the new hardware revision.
This statement right here is the reason for my thread. This was my train of thought.
 
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VFXVeteran

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I never thought this thread would come to people throwing blows at me as if I just kidnapped their long lost child. Most of you are discussing as I originally intended and I appreciate that. (y)

The bottomline of the thread is that I want more power for these consoles so that they can last a good 7yrs. Period. Watching all of these video benchmark reviews that DF has suddenly mass produced has got me scratching my head at the bandwidth limitations of these consoles. That is all.
 
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SenjutsuSage

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If you're judging the consoles so harshly off of this badly optimized port, what will you say when significantly more visually advanced games that are better optimized for the hardware drop? Grossly underpowered using the criteria you have is a claim no credible person can make, particularly when Series X contains hardware accelerated Machine Learning capabilities and we don't yet know how exactly that will materialize. Microsoft, for example, as recently as I think today are clearly making changes to the Direct ML Super Resolution github, so perhaps some progress is happening there.
 
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VFXVeteran

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If you're judging the consoles so harshly off of this badly optimized port, what will you say when significantly more visually advanced games that are better optimized for the hardware drop? Grossly underpowered using the criteria you have is a claim no credible person can make, particularly when Series X contains hardware accelerated Machine Learning capabilities and we don't yet know how exactly that will materialize. Microsoft, for example, as recently as I think today are clearly making changes to the Direct ML Super Resolution github, so perhaps some progress is happening there.
I will admit, I'm very picky. But that's how I evolved into this industry. I'll reserve judgement based on the content and the number of good graphics features these companies come up with.

Sending a praise about Ghosts to my old friend working at Sucker Punch made him super proud because he knows how I am about graphics. I want to see that same kind of effort going forward. Lastly, I do pick on multiplat games as well (hate Cyperpunk's use of GI lighting), so don't think I'm picking on the consoles.
 
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You really have no clue what are you talking about.
No...you have no clue what you're talking about. What you're describing is virtualization, which is distinct from emulation in that the code is still running natively on the hardware without recompilation, it just believes it's running on different hardware (of the same architecture) with different specs. Emulation is only required if you're running code that cannot run natively. There is absolutely nothing about PS5 / XSX that stops them running PS4 / XO code natively, they're x86 compatible by design...ergo...no emulation.
 

ethomaz

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No...you have no clue what you're talking about. What you're describing is virtualization, which is distinct from emulation in that the code is still running natively on the hardware without recompilation, it just believes it's running on different hardware (of the same architecture) with different specs. Emulation is only required if you're running code that cannot run natively. There is absolutely nothing about PS5 / XSX that stops them running PS4 / XO code natively, they're x86 compatible by design...ergo...no emulation.
Sony and AMD: "AMD created a APU that emulates the older APUs"
You: "It doesn't emulate PS4/PS4 Pro APUs. That is not emulation.".

Microsoft: "We use the hypervisor to emulate the old Xbox GPUs"
You: "It doesn't emulate old Xbox. That is not emulation".

lol

I mean there is nothing stopping the PS4 and Series X to run PS4 and Xbox One code but Sony and MS choose respectfully hardware and software emulation.
They are really dumb.
 
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Sony and AMD: "AMD created a APU that emulates the older APUs"
You: "It doesn't emulate PS4/PS4 Pro APUs. That is not emulation.".

Microsoft: "We use the hypervisor to emulate the old Xbox GPUs"
You: "It doesn't emulate old Xbox. That is not emulation".

lol
You are the prime example of why they used the word "emulation".
You're part of the ignorant masses (no offense).
 
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I mean there is nothing stopping the PS4 and Series X to run PS4 and Xbox One code but Sony and MS choose respectfully hardware and software emulation.
They are really dumb.
No...there's a very good reason to do it, the same reason that the Wii downclocks when running Gamecube games...a small amount of games would break if they had access to the full unrestricted resources. However Nintendont can force GC games to run in Wii mode because...shock horror...they're binary compatible...and a good many games run fine and at better framerates.
 
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VFXVeteran

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Then it's mainly benchmarking the CPU in those consoles, not the GPU. And those are quite weak compared to standard PC CPUs. On console they are similar at a 2700 or 1700x clocked at 3.5ghz.
Fair enough. But the transparency FX is a big bottleneck on any hardware but the consoles just drop way too many frames for my liking with this old ass game.


That drop in FPS is unacceptable:
 

Azurro

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My take is that this is a benchmark that shows the gamer a "looking glass" of what the next-gen consoles can brute force raw pixels onto the screen. This benchmark shows to me that the consoles are grossly underpowered. With the latest reviews of games coming down the pike more rapidly, we are looking at last gen all over again. I'm very disappointed in this fact as I feel that MS/Sony needs to shoot for a higher bar, suck up the costs and price the consoles accordingly (~$1k or more). It is quite clear that Nvidia should be the chosen platform for the GPU and I'm dumbfounded that they both continue to rely on AMD for their heart transplant each generation.

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of the gaming market, not just consoles, if you think that a machine that costs ~$1000 as a baseline would sell. That's a niche market, even on PC, your or my personal perspective on how much we'd like to spend has to be balanced out with what the market at large will accept. After all, those multimillion productions demand a big userbase, not everything can be an indie that runs on a toaster. :)

I don't know if you are aware, but NVidia was a terrible partner for almost everyone that had partnered with them as a GPU provider. Tech wise, they simply do not share their latest technology with console makers while in monetary terms they ripped off both MS and Sony. The only one that hasn't gotten burnt is Nintendo because of a funny coincidence: Nintendo is happy to sell shit, outdated hardware and NVidia needed to sell all of those mobile chipsets. Win/win.
 
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Mithos

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Code:
        PS4                  PS4 Pro
---------------------------------------------
CPU:    8cores @ 1,6Ghz      8cores @ 2,13Ghz
GPU:    18CU @ 800Mhz        36CU @ 911Mhz

So what happens when you run a PS4 game on the PS4 Pro when the game do not have a PS4 Pro patch.
It runs the CPU @ 1,6Ghz the GPU @ 800Mhz, AND it blocks/restricts access to half of the CU's and only use 18CU's just like a real PS4.
In essence it "emulates*" the PS4 hardware.



My take/understanding on the BC modes based on what Sony has said and what we have seen and heard of PS4 games running on PS5.


The PS5 has 3 BC Modes (not all games can just run at higher CPU and GPU clocks because it can break game logic and such).

PS4 BC Mode
PS4 Pro BC Mode
PS5 Boost Mode

When you run a PS4 game on PS5 one of these modes will be chosen, (how I do not know for certain, but I'd suspect a whitelist of some sort "because**")

PS4 BC Mode:
----------------
If the game chooses this BC Mode the CPU and the GPU will again (just like on PS4 Pro) run the CPU @ 1,6Ghz the GPU @ 800Mhz, AND it blocks/restricts access to half of the CU's and only use 18CU's just like a real PS4.

PS4 Pro BC Mode:
--------------------
If the game chooses this BC Mode the CPU and the GPU will now run the CPU @ 2,13Ghz the GPU @ 911Mhz, and will use ALL 36 CU's just like a PS4 Pro patched game would on an actual PS4 Pro.

PS5 Boost Mode:
-------------------
If the game chooses this BC Mode the CPU and the GPU will now probably have access to PS5's full CPU and GPU speeds and all CU's.
Whether or not it has full access to Zen2 and/or RNDA2 IPC improvements and uplifts, we can only speculate until confirmed by developers.


*
Whether or not you want to call it "emulation", it restricts the hardware by mimicking / behaving like the original hardware.

**
That "because" was for the fact that not all games seems to need a patch to run on the PS5 (in PS5 Boost Mode) and they just automatically run at the highest resolution and framerate the game was trying to target on PS4 and/or PS4 Pro, where as other games seem to need a patch or they have issues when running on the PS5.
 
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assurdum

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No...there's a very good reason to do it, the same reason that the Wii downclocks when running Gamecube games...a small amount of games would break if they had access to the full unrestricted resources. However Nintendont can force GC games to run in Wii mode because...shock horror...they're binary compatible...and a good many games run fine and at better framerates.
Cat Mirror GIF
Slipping Falling Down GIF
 
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VFXVeteran

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You have a fundamental misunderstanding of the gaming market, not just consoles, if you think that a machine that costs ~$1000 as a baseline would sell. That's a niche market, even on PC, your or my personal perspective on how much we'd like to spend has to be balanced out with what the market at large will accept. After all, those multimillion productions demand a big userbase, not everything can be an indie that runs on a toaster. :)
If it's one thing that continues to rise and that's inflation. We paid $50-$100 for cell phones back in the day. Now you can't get a decent one for less than $1k. You can't possibly think consoles will ALWAYS cost $500 forever.
 
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Lethal01

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If it's one thing that continues to rise and that's inflation. We paid $50-$100 for cell phones back in the day. Now you can't get a decent one for less than $1k. You can't possibly think consoles will ALWAYS cost $500 forever.

Forget forever, we're talking now.
You are crazy if you think $1000 consoles would sell now, or even in the next 5 years. So being bothered that the console manufacturers don't kill their consoles before they even launch is not very smart.

And no, this game is literally the worst benchmark. Thinking a game running in backward compatibility mode is a good measure of what the consoles are capable of when they brute force things is not a bright move. And no, being able to set a flag or two to run with a different res/fps does not change the fact that it's a terrible measure of power due to the console being in BC mode.

But thanks for the thread, it will encourage people to speak more freely when they are reminded just how little some "industry Veterans" know.
 

Hugare

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SI have done a poor job with Crysis remastered. It is a demanding and unoptimized game on the PC as well. The console version are basically running it on previous gen BC mode with unlocked fps. Having said that I think people should keep their expectation at check. RT is obviously going to be limited and 1440P, DRS seems to be ideal resolution for gfx and performance point of view
Saber Interactive was responsible for the Switch version (the most competent version). Other versions were made in-house by Crytek.
 
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rapid32.5

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Playing Crysis 2 on series X and it's dated visually no frame rate can save it. Sure it would run smoother but it is an outdated game by today's standards.
 
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ss_lemonade

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These benchmarks show that on high settings at least, the Vega 64 is averaging 60 FPS, but with frequent drops into the 50s and below. (It's running 2048x1152 which is like 11% more pixels, but it is an OC version as well)


Well at max settings the game becomes very CPU limited. It would be interesting to test at 1080p medium say, to see if it ever dips below 60.
Simply dropping Shadow quality to High adds about 25 fps in that first screenshot, and dropping Water quality too to high adds another 25 - 30 fps, so that allows me to hit 100+ fps (at least at 1024x768)
 

Azurro

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If it's one thing that continues to rise and that's inflation. We paid $50-$100 for cell phones back in the day. Now you can't get a decent one for less than $1k. You can't possibly think consoles will ALWAYS cost $500 forever.

That's not a good comparison, you should have compared the prices of the first smartphone compared to now. The first iPhone was sold at 499 and 599. Now it's 1100 I believe, 2x the price, with 15 years and 11 generations of the product between them. The increase was very gradual in a much more popular segment.

A console isn't seen as a necessity (because it isn't), and taking into account how conservative the console market is, a price increase of 2.5x within only 6 years is insane. The great majority of people in the market don't spend 1k on their GPUs, I know you'd buy it, I'd buy it, but most would tell Sony/MS to fuck off.

A 999 console isn't inflation my friend, that's throwing a tantrum. :)
 

FireFly

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The difference is that Apple aren't just selling $1000 phones. The iPhone SE starts at $399. So if you had a $1000 console, you would need a $500 console as well, and then it's like you are "pre-launching" the Pro version.
 

makaveli60

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How could be the shitty port of a game from 2007 that is already infamous of its optimization and which is running in BC mode be the perfect benchmark for the new consoles? Are you serious or are you just trolling console users again?
 
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assurdum

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I must say that the the level of technical ignorance in this thread is...amazing...truly impressive.
Your ability to spin the whole matter with compulsive obsessive tech points out (not fair at all, to be honest), giving also the ignorant here and there, it's cute. I don't know with what courage you can continue to post after saying ps5 and series X aren't powerful enough to emulate BC and the hell should mean lol. But sure the other are ignorant, Mr Carmack.
 
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I don't know with what courage you can continue to post after saying ps5 and series X aren't powerful enough to emulate BC
Simple, with the courage of beinh right. No emulation is occurring. Virtualization is not emulation. Underclocking is not emulation. Emulation (which isn't happening) is emulation. If the PS5 was powerful enough to actually accurately emulate PS4, as opposed to just run the games natively, don't you think they'd write a highly accurate PS3 emulator while they were at it?

And of course you wouldn't think it was "fair". Technically illiterate people who are talking out of their arse and repeating marketing jargon verbatim rarely like it when someone points out what they're saying is wrong.
 

FireFly

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Simple, with the courage of beinh right. No emulation is occurring. Virtualization is not emulation. Underclocking is not emulation. Emulation (which isn't happening) is emulation. If the PS5 was powerful enough to actually accurately emulate PS4, as opposed to just run the games natively, don't you think they'd write a highly accurate PS3 emulator while they were at it?

And of course you wouldn't think it was "fair". Technically illiterate people who are talking out of their arse and repeating marketing jargon verbatim rarely like it when someone points out what they're saying is wrong.
I think the confusion arises because the games are running natively on PS5/XSX GPUs in a special "GCN" mode (when Cerny talks about incorporating the previous consoles' "logic" into the APU).
 
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I think the confusion arises because the games are running natively on PS5/XSX GPUs in a special "GCN" mode (when Cerny talks about incorporating the previous consoles' "logic" into the APU).
It doesn't help that when explaining it they opted to call it "emulation". I get why they did it, it makes the concept easier to understand for most people, but it comes at the cost of people saying "it's emulated so of course it's underperforming!", not realising that a good amount of games actually run at the PS5's full clock speed because it only causes issues in some titles.
 
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If it's one thing that continues to rise and that's inflation. We paid $50-$100 for cell phones back in the day. Now you can't get a decent one for less than $1k. You can't possibly think consoles will ALWAYS cost $500 forever.
The $50-100 cellphones you're referring to were qualitatively different devices than the smartphones we use today. Reasonably performant smartphones have never cost $50-100, though you can find plenty of extreme budget Android phones in developing markets for that price. Usable smartphones start at around $150-200 in the US today, decent ones start in the $300 range, by $750 you've hit the point of diminishing returns and there's no rational reason to spend more.

Game console launch prices go up about $100 every two or three generations: PS1 launched at $300, PS2 at $300, 360 technically at $300 but really at $400, PS4 at $400, PS5 technically at $400 but really at $500. This is slightly slower than inflation. Attempts at raising prices more rapidly than this (the PS3 and Xbox One) have run into significant consumer resistance. The market will not support $1000 consoles for many decades, by which point a comparable gaming PC will likely cost on the order of $3000-5000 if not significantly more.
 
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assurdum

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Simple, with the courage of beinh right. No emulation is occurring. Virtualization is not emulation. Underclocking is not emulation. Emulation (which isn't happening) is emulation. If the PS5 was powerful enough to actually accurately emulate PS4, as opposed to just run the games natively, don't you think they'd write a highly accurate PS3 emulator while they were at it?

And of course you wouldn't think it was "fair". Technically illiterate people who are talking out of their arse and repeating marketing jargon verbatim rarely like it when someone points out what they're saying is wrong.
Illiterate people Jesus Christ man the hell? Approximation is not illiteracy. What changes call it virtualization than emulation, they are practically synonymous, they both simulate for definition. And really? PS3 emulation is available on weaker pc from awhile, why ps5 shouldn't be powerful enough to emulate it? Like wut? Oh yeah call it virtualization, and we should stop to name them developers because they are coders or compilers when they compiling and so on, what nonsense argumentations. Net forum seems filled of missed Carmack but who knows why they like more to talk with illiterate people of superficial nomenclatures indeed to discuss of more interesting concrete stuff.
 
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Neo Blaster

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- Saw the thread title and began wondering: 'WTF??'
- Entered and noticed the OP is VFXVeteran
- Lol, wrote this and got out.
 

assurdum

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It doesn't help that when explaining it they opted to call it "emulation". I get why they did it, it makes the concept easier to understand for most people, but it comes at the cost of people saying "it's emulated so of course it's underperforming!", not realising that a good amount of games actually run at the PS5's full clock speed because it only causes issues in some titles.
I....so all those chats to ignorant people who shouldn't call emulation a virtualization process but you can say ps5 runs at full clock speed when the hardware basically downclock the speed to simulate the previouses old processors? For real?
The Big Lebowski What GIF by MOODMAN

And how you would call an underperforming game which runs in "virtualization" mode if natively coded should run infinitely better? Underestimate overperformance?
 
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And how you would call an underperforming game which runs in "virtualization" mode if natively coded should run infinitely better?
You still don't get it do you? It IS "natively coded". x86 machine code is x86 machine code and will run on ANY x86 compatible processor natively. That applies to ancient 16bit PC software running on a modern 64bit processors and it applies to both the PS4/5 and XO/SX. It's all x86, that's the point.
 
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VFXVeteran

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Forget forever, we're talking now.
You are crazy if you think $1000 consoles would sell now, or even in the next 5 years. So being bothered that the console manufacturers don't kill their consoles before they even launch is not very smart.

And no, this game is literally the worst benchmark. Thinking a game running in backward compatibility mode is a good measure of what the consoles are capable of when they brute force things is not a bright move. And no, being able to set a flag or two to run with a different res/fps does not change the fact that it's a terrible measure of power due to the console being in BC mode.

But thanks for the thread, it will encourage people to speak more freely when they are reminded just how little some "industry Veterans" know.
Dude, I'm tired of you trolling and trying to make me look bad. How about you share your infinite knowledge of gaming and start doing tech posts? That way I can get my hands full on seeing how awesome your "game" development experience is. Make a new thread on specific graphics features in the latest PS5 game, how they are designed and show how you'd implement some of these features. Perhaps you can show some of your recent work in the field.
 
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assurdum

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You still don't get it do you? It IS "natively coded". x86 machine code is x86 machine code and will run on ANY x86 compatible processor natively. That applies to ancient 16bit PC software running on a modern 64bit processors and it applies to both the PS4/5 and XO/SX. It's all x86, that's the point.
Again you play around the words as always. You perfectly understand what I mean for native. But I'm not surprised. All your argumentations it's about stupid semantic and nothing more. You reached the point to negate the evidence (as how works BC on ps5) just for the sake of the semantic. Lol.
 
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Lethal01

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Dude, I'm tired of you trolling and trying to make me look bad.

Do you think you need my help to look bad? Have you read the words you type?

Posting work on here isn't going to make my post any more correct than it already is, so I really don't see a point. I've got no interest in going "You think what I say makes no sense but look at this thing I'm proud of". If your arguments are weak without knowing credentials then they stay weak when with them.

This game running in BC is a terrible measure of what the consoles can do with "brute strength" and even if it were a passable one then that still doesn't make doubling the price of what people were expecting to pay for their consoles a profitable decision.
 
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VFXVeteran

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Do you think you need my help to look bad? Have you read the words you type?
Dude, you and a VERY SMALL handful of people attack me as soon as you see anything negative that I type about the consoles. If I'm praising them, then you have no problems. You act dumb in understanding anything I say when it's in a negative context. Almost like you don't want to understand what I'm trying to say.

In any case, stop with the jabs about my past experience being in film (while ignoring that I've spent the better part of 4yrs in realtime). They really are NOT different at all. In fact, film experience is what gaming companies want because they are the architects of new graphics innovations and game companies struggle to get anything even remotely looking good compared to film. And it's not just about having access to a renderfarm. Your trolling is really getting old and tiring. If you don't have anything worthwhile to add to my threads then stay out of them. It's just that simple.
 
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Again you play around the words as always.
You call it "playing around with the words", I call it you being wrong and being too bullheaded to admit that you're ignorant of the technical details of how CPU architectures work, how the PS5 and XSX are able to run games from PS4 and XO, but not PS3 or 360 at anywhere near the compatibility level achieved between gen 8 and 9 systems, and why x86 continues to be used despite arguably superior alternatives existing.

But hey, continue living in willful ignorance, I don't really care enough to continue correcting the technically illiterate. Learn the difference between virtualization and emulation, native and non-native, hardware and software...then we'll talk.
 

Lethal01

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Dude, you and a VERY SMALL handful of people attack me as soon as you see anything negative that I type about the consoles. If I'm praising them, then you have no problems. You act dumb in understanding anything I say when it's in a negative context. Almost like you don't want to understand what I'm trying to say.

I get what you are trying to say, what you're trying to say is wrong, and pointing out the hilarity of thinking it's a good idea to launch base consoles at $1000 is far more worthwhile than anything you've typed in here. Seriously, I'd love to hear how you expect that to go down.

I don't care if you are praising the consoles when what you're saying is objectively untrue, you happen to say more dumb shit when you're trying to give critique, that's your problem, not mine.

If you don't like my input then block me, I don't need you to respond if all you do is play victim whenever you get "jabbed" and disagreed with.
If you wanna discuss the actual points then do that instead of writing paragraphs about how much your credentials matter.
 
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