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Could Series S run the Unreal 5 demo?

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MrFunSocks

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I think there are bigger problems if the best the PS5 can do with unreal engine is 1440p30fps.

Unreal Engine 5 will work just fine on the series S.

Hopefully literally every developer this generation does dynamic resolution to maintain the target framerate, as that will scale nicely with the Series X and S, and also with the next generation BC for Xbox.
 
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Elog

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Shouldn't be an issue. UE5 is created to work on all devices, so they'll just have to make some optimizations for the XSS, just like they can make it even better on the XSX.

Are you stating on record that the XSS can run that demo at the same rendering and texture resolution as the PS5 without problems? Or are you saying that the demo can be run if you downgrade rendering resolution and texture resolution ('optimization')?

If you are saying the first I am not sure what to say.
 

Jon Neu

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Are you stating on record that the XSS can run that demo at the same rendering and texture resolution as the PS5 without problems? Or are you saying that the demo can be run if you downgrade rendering resolution and texture resolution ('optimization')?

If you are saying the first I am not sure what to say.

He literally says optimization on his post.
 

TearInto5th

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The I/O is already at a disadvantage, coupled with less and slower split ram, and a far weaker GPU.

I couldnt see you being able to get the same fidelity as that PS5 demo. It could run it for sure, but it won't look anything like that.
 
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This! So much this. The output resolution of the Series S will be 4K, just like in the Xbox One S. The games will render at whatever internally and the Xbox will upscale it to 4K. That internal resolution might sometimes be close to 1440p, or not. Also, the machine is capable of outputting 120fps, but I doubt many games will actually do that.

The idea that you are getting a ”1440p/120fps” machine at $300 is ludicrous, but some people seem to actually believe it.
Some people are glass half full types, while people like you are glass half empty types.

I’d be willing to bet money that while building said console, they tested it against multiple titles old and new to see what they could realistically and achieve and advertise with.

For them to hit that number and run with it, they’ve more than likely hit that across multiple titles, and probably some demanding ones too. Lots of them probably being old unoptimised titles and new stuff they built purely for testing purposes.

As I’ve said before, the onus is on the developers of the games to try and match that or sacrifice in other areas to make a stable game. For Microsoft it’s a choice between getting in even more customers at £249 or giving developers a fraction more power to play with for little to no extra benefit.

I have absolutely no idea why you, the consumer tend to freak out so much when even developers themselves seem content. Maybe 4 or 5 developers have voiced concerns out of the millions that are out there? big deal honestly.
 

Aladin

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And potential loading times for ps5are being calculated wrongly. If it takes Series S 6 seconds, it will take ps5 4.5 seconds.
 

geordiemp

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As a person with limited tech know-how, I'm just trying to wrap my brain around how this will work out. So mods... please don't ban me Mmmkay! :)

With all the talk about Series S being a 1440p version of Series X, I am just honestly wondering how something like the Unreal 5 tech demo would work on Series S, assuming Epic was running with optimal graphics settings and were maxing out the ps5 at 1440p/30fps already?

Well if anyone read and listened to the interviews from EPIC, the resolution was not the determining factor and they could run nanite at 4k easily or 60 FPS on ps5.

And 1440p showed off the amazing temporal upscaling which was perfection, who needs machine learning ?

Ther limiting factor which took up most of the frametime budget was Lumen Global illumination, and it as an early build Epic were shooting for 1440p60 temporal to 4k. So most of the budget and work was the voxel GI on ps5...

So 3 questions

1. Rendering : Could XSS run it, rendering yes,

2. Streaming : Loading and streaming - could be limiting factor, SFS is with LOD transitions would not help, this is different there are no LODs, so lower asset quality or bigger RAM streaming pool (er, or wait ?)

3. Could XSS do the Lumen, At a much lower setting if there is one on Lumen, or lower resolution maybe 720 for the lighting or less ?

Think we need to see Xss and XSX run some next gen games would be a first step.
 
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pawel86ck

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In lower resolution sure, it's just slower GPU with the same features as XSX. 7.5GB dedicated for games on XSS is not a problem, because if SFS will work as advertised (2.5x data savings) it will be like 18GB without SFS. Also XSS will run games at lower resolution, ans that's including assets quality. You dont need 8K textures at 1080p.
 
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Snake29

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Shouldn't be an issue. UE5 is created to work on all devices, so they'll just have to make some optimizations for the XSS, just like they can make it even better on the XSX.

It will not look the same. That last part of the demo won't even be possible in the same way on the XSS. It will look completely different on the XSS. And your assuming it will even do a better job on the XSX, then the PS5?

Well in fact, it won't.
 

Azurro

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And potential loading times for ps5are being calculated wrongly. If it takes Series S 6 seconds, it will take ps5 4.5 seconds.

You literally can't know that, the I/O is much more than just the GB/s and quite different in both systems. You'll have to wait until launch to find out
 
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Elog

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That's not what he meant at all and I don't know how you can even reach to that conclusion.

Optimizations for the XsS it's precisely what that means.

My last reply to you: The word optimisation does not in any shape or form require the inclusion of downgrades. Hence my question - the word is not precise enough for this discussion.

The topic is not whether UE5 is scalable across platforms - we know with 100% certainty that it is. The question is if the UE5 demo 'as is' can run on XSS. And in any normal environment the answer to that question is a given.
 
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pawel86ck

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Well if anyone read and listened to the interviews from EPIC, the resolution was not the determining factor and they could run nanite at 4k easily or 60 FPS on ps5.

And 1440p showed off the amazing temporal upscaling which was perfection, who needs machine learning ?

Ther limiting factor which took up most of the frametime budget was Lumen Global illumination, and it as an early build Epic were shooting for 1440p60 temporal to 4k. So most of the budget and work was the voxel GI.

So 3 questions

1. Rendering : Could XSS run it, rendering yes,

2. Streaming : Loading and streaming - could be limiting factor, SFS is with LOD transitions would not help, this is different there are no LODs, so lower asset quality or bigger RAM streaming pool (er, or wait ?)

3. Could XSS do the Lumen, At a much lower setting if there is one on Lumen, or lower resolution maybe 720 for the lighting or less ?

Answers on a postcard.
I want to see UE5 4K screenshots, because it's impossible to say anything about upscaling method based on extremely compressed YT video that looks bad anyway. Based on 1440p screenshots from Epic I'm not expecting similar results to DLSS, because even 1440p screenshots were overprocessed.
 
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3liteDragon

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lol. lower resolution sure but not "extremely"

if PS5 can only manage 1440p 30fps then Series S would probably get similar visuals at ~900p. texture/asset streaming would be a little slower but hardly noticeable.

Series X could probably manage 1800p 30fps.
I think it can run the demo at native 4K@30FPS (Nanite cost from rasterization to GBuffer output for the demo on PS5 alone took only 4.5ms of frame time) but Epic’s trying to advertise their engine to devs, not the PS5. Temporal accumulation is an Unreal Engine 4 feature, so why wouldn’t they wanna show how well that works in UE5? But they needed to show off the demo in the best way possible so they picked the PS5.

As for whether the Series X can run the demo? Of course it can. Can it run it at the same level of fidelity as PS5 because TFLOPs? I don’t think so. Big question though is whether we’ll notice the difference between the PS5 version and the Series X version if the Series X version isn’t streaming in and shading as much triangles as the PS5? That can only be answered once we see the demo actually running on the Series X.

My post from another thread:

And geometry throughput with both the Series X and S will be lower too because of the I/O speed. I know I keep saying this but I don't think constantly streaming in and shading roughly about 20 million triangles PER FRAME with that kind of I/O speed and architecture is even possible, this is why I think the UE5 demo running on PS5 will be the highest fidelity version for a while. When you’re streaming in triangles from the SSD as fast as the PS5, they need to be shaded/rasterized just as fast as well. A higher GPU frequency literally means faster rasterization performance and cache management/bandwidth, there’s a reason Epic picked the PS5 to show off that demo at the highest fidelity possible.

Tim Sweeney: The storage architecture on the PS5 is far ahead of anything you can buy on anything on PC for any amount of money right now. It’s going to help drive future PCs. They’re going to see this thing ship and say, ‘Oh wow, SSDs are going to need to catch up with this.

Tim Sweeney: The PS5 puts a vast amount of flash memory very, very close to the processor, so much that it really fundamentally changes the trade-offs that games can make and stream in. And that’s absolutely critical to this kind of demo.

Tim Sweeney: This is not just a whole lot of polygons and memory. It’s also a lot of polygons being loaded every frame as you walk around through the environment and this sort of detail you don’t see in the world would absolutely not be possible at any scale without these breakthroughs that Sony’s made.

There’s a lot of factors that should be considered when running a demo like this at that kind of fidelity and all people clinch onto is a theoretical TFLOPs number or if that doesn’t work, “MaRkEtInG dEaL”.
 
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Bernd Lauert

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How did you get to just 900p? You understand that PS5 is 2.5x as powerful as the Series S based on on paper GPU grunt, don't you? I was actually being kind with the 720p for Series S. It'd be 540p in all honestly. To me, 540p can't truly be considered running the demo. We're not in 1999.

Maths are hard, I guess. 720p is a quarter of 1440p. There's no good reason to let the demo run at that resolution. 900p sounds reasonable, maybe they could push it to 1080p with further optimization. Not bad for a $299 console.
 

Jon Neu

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My last reply to you: The word optimisation does not in any shape or form require the inclusion of downgrades. Hence my question - the word is not precise enough for this discussion.

The poster in question knows perfectly that the Series S it's a far less powerful machine, so when he says that optimizations should have to be made for the Series S to run the demo, that's precisely what he means.


But they needed to show off the demo in the best way possible so they picked the PS5.

Yeah, totally nothing to do with the 250$ millions inversion Sony did on EPIC at all.
 

Snake29

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I'm sure we'll see this demo or even an extended demo on PS5 in the future again. Maybe both Epic and PlayStation will make a game out of this together.

It was also running on early PS5 devkit.

Tim Sweeney calls the PS5 a “remarkably balanced device"; confirms that Epic and Sony have been working very closely together to optimize UE5 for the PS5's SSD as much as possible The UE5 tech demo was captured from an early PS5 console at Epic
 
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Dunnas

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Didn’t we find out that the streaming requirements for the demo were only something like 0.5-1GB/s or was that debunked?
 

DavidGzz

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I hope I am wrong cause I'm getting one but I think Series S will be as much a 1440p machine as PS Pro is a 4k machine. I think when it comes to next gen more often than not we will get 1080p.
 
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Yoboman

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With less resolution? Sure.

The funny thing is that the UE5 it's meant to be super scalable.
That is funny


 
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yurinka

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I think it may run it, and both Switch or XBO S too, but not with the screen resolution, poly count, lighting quality and texture detail we saw in the demo. They can scale it with UE5 to highly reduce the quality of everything and use traditional lighting and rendering techniques we saw until now.
 
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Allandor

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Short answer: Yes.

Long answer: The demo was, what it was. A technology demo. There was much stuff in there, that was only made this way to demonstrate the technology. You just wouldn't make a "level" that way. One problem would be the storage, that could get overwhelmed by all that data really fast. You would always optimize stuff, integrate tradeoffs because the processing power is better used in other departments of the engine. E.g. most of the time the GPU was just calculating the correct light.
And guess what, light calculations scale quite good with resolution ;)
All those triangles would got to a sub-pixel size with lowered resolution, so there is another thing where you can save some "power".

Btw, there is a reason why the only made one statue and duplicated it all over the place. Just remember, tech demos are no games.
 

Rikkori

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Yes. If you look into it all of the innovations made by UE5 scale very well with resolution, so for example Nanite scales the level of detail model of an object directly with the pixel resolution mapping it for maximum visual improvement for a chosen pixel size, so what that means is you'll have proportional costs to your resolution. Likewise for Lumen where it uses things like SSR which is directly scaled with resolution as well.

So it's not out of the question that it could do it at 1080p. Exact measurements will have to wait until we can test it.
 

TearInto5th

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The poster in question knows perfectly that the Series S it's a far less powerful machine, so when he says that optimizations should have to be made for the Series S to run the demo, that's precisely what he means.




Yeah, totally nothing to do with the 250$ millions inversion Sony did on EPIC at all.
Haha, for real? You've unearthed the conspiracy!

It ran on that hardware because Sony put the money and effort into creating some breakthrough SSD technology. Its got nothing to do with their investment.
 
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Stiflers Mom

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If people are saying it can do it at 1080p then why can’t Xbox 1 X and PS4 Pro as they are close to 4tfps And over....

I doubt it works like that

Wouldn’t we have similar results from Xbox 1 X currently?
RDNA2 GPU features,SSD plus a CPU that's a magnitude faster?
 

CrysisFreak

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Shouldn't be an issue. UE5 is created to work on all devices, so they'll just have to make some optimizations for the XSS, just like they can make it even better on the XSX.
What if they bump the IO requirements up so that Seriex cannot keep up?
Just increase traversal speed and it's over.
 
D

Deleted member 775630

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Are you stating on record that the XSS can run that demo at the same rendering and texture resolution as the PS5 without problems? Or are you saying that the demo can be run if you downgrade rendering resolution and texture resolution ('optimization')?

If you are saying the first I am not sure what to say.
It will not look the same. That last part of the demo won't even be possible in the same way on the XSS. It will look completely different on the XSS. And your assuming it will even do a better job on the XSX, then the PS5?

Well in fact, it won't.
I meant that they obviously need to downgrade it somewhat. It will never look like the PS5 version, since the PS5 is just a more powerful console than the XSS.

What if they bump the IO requirements up so that Seriex cannot keep up?
Just increase traversal speed and it's over.
That will only happen for first party PS5 games.
 
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geordiemp

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Shouldn't be an issue. UE5 is created to work on all devices, so they'll just have to make some optimizations for the XSS, just like they can make it even better on the XSX.

At the same fidelity and quality is the question ?

With slower streaming you can increase the streaming pool size from 768 mb, but how much ?

Next gen consoles are not flush with RAM, and no you cannot do lower level mips and SFS blend in higher quality ones late so the pip in is not so jarring, there are no mips or LODS in Nanite thats a no go..

I think MS need to get their direct storage api and fast loading sorted out for xbox and PC.
 
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Vawn

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Who knows. If the demo had been done on Series X, people would have claimed it couldn't have been done on PS5.
 
D

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At the same fidelity and quality is the question ?

With slower streaming you can increase the streaming pool size from 768 mb, but how much ?

Next gen consoles are not flush with RAM, and no you cannot do lower level mips and SFS blend in higher quality ones late so the pip in is not so jarring, there are no mips or LODS in Nanite thats a no go..

I think MS need to get their direct storage api and fast loading sorted out for xbox and PC.
We still don't know enough about the demo to answer these questions, right? EPIC never shared a lot of information about what is needed to run it at that fidelity.
 

tkscz

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If people are saying it can do it at 1080p then why can’t Xbox 1 X and PS4 Pro as they are close to 4tfps And over....

I doubt it works like that

Wouldn’t we have similar results from Xbox 1 X currently?

Because TFs aren't the end all be all measurement to determine if hardware can run something. Significantly better CPU in every way imaginable. Still uses GDDR6 RAM, which 10GB of GDDR6 is still better than 12GB of GDDR5. Still has a newer architecture for it's GPU which RDNA2 should still be better than Polaris. It's like asking why the RTX 2060 is better than the GTX 1070 even though the 1070 has 2 more GBs of RAM. Architecture plays a bigger part than just numbers.

As for the question at hand, it'll have to be scaled down but the XSS should be able to handle it.
 
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pawel86ck

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Sure, with a visible loading ("Please wait") every 5 seconds or so.
I believe XSS at lower resolution (and lower assets quality as well, lets say 2K textures instead of 8K) and SFS 2.5x data savings will have more RAM to spare than PS5 at higher resolutions. IF PS5 is running UE5 tech demo without problems, XSS can run it also.
 

Faithless83

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As a person with limited tech know-how, I'm just trying to wrap my brain around how this will work out. So mods... please don't ban me Mmmkay! :)

With all the talk about Series S being a 1440p version of Series X, I am just honestly wondering how something like the Unreal 5 tech demo would work on Series S, assuming Epic was running with optimal graphics settings and were maxing out the ps5 at 1440p/30fps already?
Yes as the engine is focused on scalability.
Exactly like the PS5 version quality/textures/speed wise?
I doubt even the XSX can do it.
 

geordiemp

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We still don't know enough about the demo to answer these questions, right? EPIC never shared a lot of information about what is needed to run it at that fidelity.

No we dont, all we have is Tim Sweeny tweets on the subject of why they needed low latency fast SSD and even then he was vague.

Someone asked why not XSX for the demo, Tim just said NO :messenger_beaming:

Direct storage really needs more work IMO, it is not up to speed yet and allot of it is PR buty thats my opinion and has not changed until I see different.

Windows file IO system is 35 years old and so much legacy software and security, rewriting that must be a nightmare from hell and XSX and PC have to have things in common for apis - sony do not have that millstone.
 
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CrysisFreak

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I meant that they obviously need to downgrade it somewhat. It will never look like the PS5 version, since the PS5 is just a more powerful console than the XSS.


That will only happen for first party PS5 games.
Yeah because the Xbox IO will hold the generation back.
 
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The myth about Magic Sony SSD™ required was broken at the same time this demo was shown.
The UE5 engineer tech team in China had a concurrent live stream to celebrate, and
they stated that the I/O requirements for the demo were in the Megabytes/second range, not even Gb/s.
So, the answer is 100% yes.
 
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