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Comics Are Dead, Long Live Manga!

Aug 16, 2012
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North West, UK.
Going by all the arguing in here the West is tired of Capeshit exposure because it's all they've been given for 60+ years, Shounen is fresh to people who aren't in the know, but once you've read a few the formula is generally the same. Battle manga with MC wanting to be the best X/Y/Z with a supporting side cast who are either jobbers or extremely over powered. They'll get tired of it eventually but Shounen manga have a solid start and end point to jump in and out of, that's the strength even if a lot of the writing isn't great.
 
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Amiga

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Paging sol_bad sol_bad so he can gatekeep Chuck F*cking Dixon by telling us that comics are absolutely fine and that Dixon is just not reading enough comics.
you can say Marvel/DC suck and say western Comics can produce great content. Manga has great things but it's also full of unreadable trash. the popular Manga we know of are barley 1% of what is produced.

the problem with American comics is that people wait for Marvel/DC to change things and that will not happen. Chuck can always teamup with an artist and put out his own book. Robert Kirkman produced 2 long running books outside of Marvel/DC and he did that after failing to build a reputation at those big publishers.
 
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CAPSOL

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Jan 10, 2019
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I dont really care about sales but Id love to read some Manga that people in here feel is on par with some the best western comics.

What manga compares to stuff like:

Watchmen
The Sandman
Marvels
Sin City
The Invisibles
Transmetropilitan
Dark Night Returns
Preacher
Kingdom Come
V for Vendetta
Y: The Last Man
Saga
 

Null Persp

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Nov 15, 2020
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I always preferred manga but in the last few years I began to collect European comics, graphics novels, and other stuff from Image comics and Vertigo and many are great, there are a lot of hidden gems especially from European comics.
I usually avoid superheroes comics though.


I dont really care about sales but Id love to read some Manga that people in here feel is on par with some the best western comics.

What manga compares to stuff like:

Watchmen
The Sandman
Marvels
Sin City
The Invisibles
Transmetropilitan
Dark Night Returns
Preacher
Kingdom Come
V for Vendetta
Y: The Last Man
Saga

These are the best that I have read that I would recommend to anyone.

2001 Nights
21th Century Boys
Akira
Alita
anything from Jiro Taniguchi, my fav is A Distant Neighborhood
Berserk
Billy Bat
Blade of the Immortal
Blame!
Deathnote
Devilman
Dorohedoro
Dragon Ball
Dragon head
Eden: It's an Endless World!
Fullmetal Alchemist
GTO
Hokuto no ken
Homunculus
Jojo
Kiseijuu
Lone Wolf & Cub
Maison Ikkoku
Maou Dante
Monster
Nana
Nausicaa
Narutaru
anything from Osamu Tezuka
Paradise kiss
Planetes
Pluto
Real
Rough
The Drifting Classroom and other stuff from Kazuo Umezu
Uchu Kyodai
Uzumaki and other Junji Ito's manga
Vagabond
Vinland Saga
Yu Yu Hakusho
Zetman
 

tsumake

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Dec 3, 2019
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I’m more concerned about the state of comic books than comparing them to manga. Manga is a distinct cultural artifact with its own history and tradition.

Mainstream comics do seem to exist just to keep the IP, and that’s the pity. There is/was also a rich history and tradition with American comicbooks, and they are very willing to throw that all away.
 

CGiRanger

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Why is she morbidly obese? Why does she look nothing like her supposed mother? Why does this even exist?

Seriously, who are the mentally deranged dipshits who keep buying shitty comics like this?
The author self insert herself into the comic.

How pathetic.
Question and Answer

 
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Claus Grimhildyr

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Jan 30, 2018
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Question and Answer


Wow, that is incredibly shameless. This whole "fat acceptance" thing needs to end in comics. Unless the comic has a training arc where she loses weight through hardwork and perseverance. Though given the trailer... doubtful.
 

sol_bad

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Why is she morbidly obese? Why does she look nothing like her supposed mother? Why does this even exist?

Seriously, who are the mentally deranged dipshits who keep buying shitty comics like this?

It's aimed at the YA audience, not the usual comic reading crowd. Hence the comic crowd isn't even talking about this book. Only 30+ old men are talking about it and creating drama around it to make money from their YouTube audience.

The YA books must sell because DC have been doing them since 2019 I think.
 

Claus Grimhildyr

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It's aimed at the YA audience, not the usual comic reading crowd. Hence the comic crowd isn't even talking about this book. Only 30+ old men are talking about it and creating drama around it to make money from their YouTube audience.

The YA books must sell because DC have been doing them since 2019 I think.

A few things:
1.) This is literally a thread about the continued failure of western comics, which strange headache strange headache has shown evidence time and again for. The fact that they continue to release titles like this only further shows they have no clue who their audience is and are more than willing to continue to throw money down the drain.

2.) My students were talking about this in class today and I was able to ask them what their thoughts were. In a class of 50, every last one of them said it was fucking stupid. These are the "young adults" that DC are targeting. "young adults" aren't fucking stupid. They can tell when something is trash, written from some mentally deranged person's point of view, and aren't going to freely spend the limited funds they have on crap like this.
 
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sol_bad

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A few things:
1.) This is literally a thread about the continued failure of western comics, which strange headache strange headache has shown evidence time and again for. The fact that they continue to release titles like this only further shows they have no clue who their audience is and are more than willing to continue to throw money down the drain.

2.) My students were talking about this in class today and I was able to ask them what their thoughts were. In a class of 50, every last one of them said it was fucking stupid. These are the "young adults" that DC are targeting. "young adults" aren't fucking stupid. They can tell when something is trash, written from some mentally deranged person's point of view, and aren't going to freely spend the limited funds they have on crap like this.

Congratulations?
Like I said, the YA range has been around for 2 years. It's a different audience to the core comic book reader audience. There may be zero students in your specific school that care about the book. But there is enough of an audience and they are gaining enough profit for them to warrant releases of these books.
It's silly to try and use their YA books as an "example" of DC not understanding it's audience. These YA books are not even 2% of what DC release. It's just a little side division allowing authors and artists to play around with DC characters outside of continuity.

People saying that Mariko Tamaki is self inserting herself into the story, I'd imagine she is putting some of her life experience into the book but not self inserting. She is 40+ years old, why would she care about "school life" at this point? Stories about kids feeling like outsiders and being bullied have been around for decades, ain't nothing new.

It's not even 1 book a month.

I'm not interested in this book and not buying it btw. LOL
^___^
 
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MastaKiiLA

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I dont really care about sales but Id love to read some Manga that people in here feel is on par with some the best western comics.

What manga compares to stuff like:

Watchmen
The Sandman
Marvels
Sin City
The Invisibles
Transmetropilitan
Dark Night Returns
Preacher
Kingdom Come
V for Vendetta
Y: The Last Man
Saga
Right now, I only read One Piece and Onepunch Man. Both are excellent. One Piece has been going over 20 years now, and the quality throughout has remained high. Attack on Titan was really good until the end of the final arc. Onepunch Man was fun, though the Murata version has a somewhat sporadic release schedule.

Other manga that have been enjoyable over the years include Full Metal Alchemist, Vagabond prior to its long-ass hiatus, HunterXHunter until the dark continent bullshit, Naruto through the Pain arc, Bleach through Hueco Mundo, and Berserk through the Conviction arc is really good (due to Miura's passing, you won't get closure to the arcs that start after that).

Manga are generally different thematically than western comics. The ones I read and have read are generally more upbeat and whimsical than the comics you mentioned. Only Berserk and Vagabond I'd consider serious, and in the tone of a western comic. I enjoyed My Hero Academia and Dr Stone for a while, but I stopped reading them because I just didn't want to commit to starting new, long-running manga anymore. One Piece will wrap up in another 5 years or so, and Onepunch is a quick and casual read that also has a casual release schedule. So I'm fine with just those 2 for now. My days of following multiple manga weekly are over.

I honestly think that when One Piece wraps, it will be considered one of the greatest comics/manga ever put to paper. I think Oda has done a phenomenal job of maintaining the quality of the story and characters over such a long time. There's been growth for all characters, but the tone of the manga has remained consistently funny and engaging. He's an author who seems to really care about the characters he created, and the world they live in, so I intend on purchasing the complete series once it's completed. I don't collect physical media of any kind, but I'd be proud to showcase all volumes of One Piece on a book shelf one day. I think it's that good.
 

strange headache

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Like I said, the YA range has been around for 2 years. It's a different audience to the core comic book reader audience. There may be zero students in your specific school that care about the book. But there is enough of an audience and they are gaining enough profit for them to warrant releases of these books.
It's silly to try and use their YA books as an "example" of DC not understanding it's audience.

Don't kid yourself, this is DC literally going:



Young adults don't want to read this crap, that's why they are reading manga nowadays. This is just another example of comic publishers not understanding their audience anymore.
Just take a frikkin' look at the atrocious artwork and writing:



Give me a bullet every time they say "like".
This is just bad no matter which way you look at it and nobody wants to reads that crap.
 

CGiRanger

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Dear god, I had no idea the writing was that bad. It really shows the regression in standards and just general intelligence I feel in the past decade with creativity and writing. I could have sworn I read that this was an "Award-Winning-Author"!?!......I blame equity
 
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MayauMiao

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Don't kid yourself, this is DC literally going:



Young adults don't want to read this crap, that's why they are reading manga nowadays. This is just another example of comic publishers not understanding their audience anymore.
Just take a frikkin' look at the atrocious artwork and writing:



Give me a bullet every time they say "like".
This is just bad no matter which way you look at it and nobody wants to reads that crap.

Written by a 40 year old too

 
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FireFistAce

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Sep 2, 2020
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Don't kid yourself, this is DC literally going:



Young adults don't want to read this crap, that's why they are reading manga nowadays. This is just another example of comic publishers not understanding their audience anymore.
Just take a frikkin' look at the atrocious artwork and writing:



Give me a bullet every time they say "like".
This is just bad no matter which way you look at it and nobody wants to reads that crap.
What the hell is this crap? Is it a fan-made thing?
 

strange headache

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Dear god, I had no idea the writing was that bad. It really shows the regression in standards and just general intelligence I feel in the past decade with creativity and writing. I could have sworn I read that this was an "Award-Winning-Author"!?!......I blame equity

OMG don't be like a bigot. Like, I don't get your prob, like at all. Like this is how teens talk n'stuff, like this is natural dialogue, right? Like, don't you think Shakespeare would be better if written by like a woman?

What the hell is this crap? Is it a fan-made thing?

No this is an Eisner award winning author doing comics. She also wrote other comics, like Crush & Lobo:



Yes, Lobo is now the droopy dad of a spoiled teenage lesbian brat...

The synopsis sounds as if it was written by a 16 year old Sonic fan trying to be edgy:

If there’s anything Crush knows, it’s that traveling through space is a great time to load up on coffee, catch up on murder podcasts, and definitely not get sucked into a spiral of depression while reflecting on your meet-cute with the ex-girlfriend who just dumped you. When Crush’s trusty travel mug runs dry, a pit stop for caffeine puts Lobo’s daughter face to face with an old enemy whose vicious revenge could put an end to her journey-when it’s only just barely begun! Tick tock, Crush…your father’s waiting.

And yes, the writing is the "coolest, badass-ist" thing evar:

 

tsumake

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Dear god, I had no idea the writing was that bad. It really shows the regression in standards and just general intelligence I feel in the past decade with creativity and writing. I could have sworn I read that this was an "Award-Winning-Author"!?!......I blame equity

The company’s ESG score may be a factor.

 

Claus Grimhildyr

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OMG don't be like a bigot. Like, I don't get your prob, like at all. Like this is how teens talk n'stuff, like this is natural dialogue, right? Like, don't you think Shakespeare would be better if written by like a woman?



No this is an Eisner award winning author doing comics. She also wrote other comics, like Crush & Lobo:



Yes, Lobo is now the droopy dad of a spoiled teenage lesbian brat...

The synopsis sounds as if it was written by a 16 year old Sonic fan trying to be edgy:



And yes, the writing is the "coolest, badass-ist" thing evar:

It baffles me that anyone would try to defend this miserable "author".
 
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AzafuseYugi

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Thing is Manga isn't the only reason why comics are dying, it's the fact nobody reads comics because they have other, easily digestible media that doesn't require as much attention span like social media for example, people would rather listen comic dubs or audiobooks over reading comics or books, i feel executives intentionally hire SJW's and such to cause clout, and appeal to all the tumblrinas who probably won't even read the comic anyways, while making conservatives mad because it's SJW shit, thus creating sensationalist headlines and clickbait youtube videos giving the comic more publicity. thing is despite manga overselling comics, there's still a decent neiche thanks to stuff like the MCU that will still buy comics, this isn't the 90's anymore when there's any danger of going bankrupt, so they had to fight to stay relevant, i mean do people remember all the weird shark-jumping nonsense marvel did during the 90's

it's not like manga didn't have many of the same problems comics had with executives, anyone remember what happened to Bleach? going on for so long the story started to suck? or hell YuGiOh! wich wasn't even about card games at first but Shonen Jump wanted it to make the card game as kids were asking for it. as most succesfull manga have stories that are meant to run as much as long as their popular, while superheroes are always being rebooted and remade every 20-30 years because their meant to last forever. and finally what about comics that aren't about superheroes? those exist.

anywho i don't read comics nor do i care, im just giving a view TOTALLY not stolen from a youtube video so i can have an unpopular hot take about one industry i don't give two shits about, because the popular view was already something trying to be controversial, and yes im also a weeb who vastly preffers manga for complete unrelated reasons... bye.
 

sol_bad

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People are buying comics, they just aren't buying singles, it's expensive and a waste of money. People are migrating to collected editions.
 

kunonabi

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No they're not selling collected editions, all that growth is manga, crowdfunding and non-comic book stuff. If the collections were really selling it wouldn't be all Manga taking all the top sales spots.

Just went to half-price books and the Manga section is more bare than I've ever seen it.

 
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sol_bad

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No they're not selling collected editions, all that growth is manga, crowdfunding and non-comic book stuff. If the collections were really selling it wouldn't be all Manga taking all the top sales spots.

Just went to half-price books and the Manga section is more bare than I've ever seen it.


And the comic section?

*EDIT*
Not that your photo proves anything, I could walk into my local book shop and show you shelves that have both manga and comic books stocked.
If you have been reading through the thread, you'll see that even op has proven that comic TPBs are seeing a growth.
 
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strange headache

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Another reason to not read comics anymore:


Meanwhile Comicon seems to be an absolute blast, pulling in literally HUNDREDS of views:



But hey, we are the ones with an agenda, amirite?
 
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tsumake

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Another reason to not read comics anymore:


Meanwhile Comicon seems to be an absolute blast, pulling in literally HUNDREDS of views:



But hey, we are the ones with an agenda, amirite?

It’s a financial move, based upon their ESG score (making them more “investable”) and the whims of their investors:


They are not making these comics and making these statements for us. It’s to improve the “S” in their ESG score. Apparently they stand to make more money doing this than actually responding to consumer demands.
 

strange headache

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Frank Miller is Being Unpersoned And Banned From UK Comic Convention.

Eisner award winning comic book writer Frank Miller, creator of Sin City, The Dark Knight Returns and 300 is being cancelled. U.K. comics convention Thought Bubble has announced that it will no longer be hosting Frank Miller as a guest in response to backlash from attendees and other guests.


Frank Miller has been accused of misogyny over his Sin City series and came under fire for Holy Terror in 2011, a graphic novel about Islamic terrorism which critics called out as Islamophobic.

If you need another reason why comics are in the gutter, well there you go.
 

Ballthyrm

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I will echo some posts in this thread and say Y'all need to read some European Comics.
There is a lot of stuff , expecially if you haven't read the "classics" like
  • Tintin,
  • Asterix
  • Lucky Luke
  • Gaston
  • Alix
  • The Smurf.
Then there is space for some more sophisticated stuff:
  • Thorgal
  • XIII
  • BlackSad
  • L'incal
  • Chroniques de la Lune Noire
  • Long John Silver
  • VALÉRIAN ET LAURELINE
 

Toots

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Too bad it is accompanied with atrocious dialogue and story:



What I'm saying is comics have a stick up their rear and hold their audience in contempt.
So it's too bad nobody gets to see that art because nobody frikkin' reads it.
All-black the necrosword :messenger_smiling_hearts:
The annihilablade :messenger_smiling_hearts::messenger_smiling_hearts:
that's the kind of creativity you cannot teach (thankfully)

Edit : if you like weird post apocalyptic / scifi and want to try european comics go read "Les gardiens du Maser" (Maser's guardians i guess but i did not find an english version).
One of the most beautiful comics i ever read with painting like style and a cool story, and the most important ingredient of any french or italian comic (the author is french italian ) : full frontal nudity in at least to instances and huge knockers on display more than a few time (never in a sexual way of course, only in weird dream like sequences :messenger_sunglasses: )
 
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Claus Grimhildyr

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Frank Miller is Being Unpersoned And Banned From UK Comic Convention.

Eisner award winning comic book writer Frank Miller, creator of Sin City, The Dark Knight Returns and 300 is being cancelled. U.K. comics convention Thought Bubble has announced that it will no longer be hosting Frank Miller as a guest in response to backlash from attendees and other guests.


Frank Miller has been accused of misogyny over his Sin City series and came under fire for Holy Terror in 2011, a graphic novel about Islamic terrorism which critics called out as Islamophobic.

If you need another reason why comics are in the gutter, well there you go.

And yet, we will probably see the usual suspects pop up and try to claim that this is a *good* thing for the industry. Fucking ridiculous.
 

Amiga

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The company’s ESG score may be a factor.


had an encounter with this "what's your ESG plan" about 2 years ago. it's self damaging, cut's off funding opportunities because it's extra self regulation that isn't applied throughout the industry. and hardly at all on the global level (the only part that is effective globally is the environment, and to different standards).

big companies lost billions in funding to competitors because of ESG. some take the money and still claim to adhere to ESG. some drop ESG pretense because they weren't getting funding anyway.

unfortunately for the media/entertainment industry. they are at the heart of this ESG thing. it's boxed and locked industry that doesn't let any outsider get a footing. they would burn anything to the ground rather than let it go.
 

oagboghi2

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Another reason to not read comics anymore:


Meanwhile Comicon seems to be an absolute blast, pulling in literally HUNDREDS of views:



But hey, we are the ones with an agenda, amirite?
Darkhorse highest selling book is Berserk. A manga.

Was that only meant for white boys? The people running comics seem to have total contempt for their own industry
 

tsumake

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had an encounter with this "what's your ESG plan" about 2 years ago. it's self damaging, cut's off funding opportunities because it's extra self regulation that isn't applied throughout the industry. and hardly at all on the global level (the only part that is effective globally is the environment, and to different standards).

big companies lost billions in funding to competitors because of ESG. some take the money and still claim to adhere to ESG. some drop ESG pretense because they weren't getting funding anyway.

unfortunately for the media/entertainment industry. they are at the heart of this ESG thing. it's boxed and locked industry that doesn't let any outsider get a footing. they would burn anything to the ground rather than let it go.

Thanks for the insight. A few questions:

- How is it self damaging?

- How does it cut off funding? I thought the point of an ESG score is to make your company more attractive to investors?

- Could you explain the process of obtaining an ESG score and its “utility?”


I’m genuinely curious about ESG. I have the feeling that outside investors are influencing company decisions, and this seems like a good mechanism to do so.

Or, is it just “monkey see, monkey do?”
 

thefool

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Today I was at the biggest store here in my country related with books/media/etc and in the top 6 of the most sold books (everything goes), there were 5 mangas. I sincerly don't even remember seeing one comic book in the top 10, seeing 5 mangas was kinda crazy.
 
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sol_bad

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And yet, we will probably see the usual suspects pop up and try to claim that this is a *good* thing for the industry. Fucking ridiculous.

Nah, it's pretty shit that Frank Miller can't go because of what seems like a couple of whiney people. He should be allowed to go.

Holy Terror is a damn bad book though. It doesn't offend me at all, I laughed at all the terrorist part in the 2nd half, it'sso over the top. Lots of awkward dialogue and the book starts with the hero beating up a female thief, then they get caught in an explosion together, nek minute the hero is pondering if he is in love with the woman.
What the eff?
 

Amiga

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- How is it self damaging?

explained in this part "cut's off funding opportunities because it's extra self regulation that isn't applied throughout the industry. and hardly at all on the global level (the only part that is effective globally is the environment, and to different standards)."

- How does it cut off funding? I thought the point of an ESG score is to make your company more attractive to investors?


that is the idea. but it doesn't work. at least not without cost. activist board members could refuse partners or funding from non complying investing entities or individuals. these investors would then take their money to competitors. also if a company is bogged down worrying to much with ESG compliance and ignore growth or profit opportunities they may be considered a liability for capital.

99% of people invest because they want more money. not because they want to fix the world.

Apple/Google talk the talk. but they have billions in interests in parts of the world that are very far of from ESG "standards". a company like Red Bull just said "nope" and fired the execs who wanted to the company to appear more socially responsible.

- Could you explain the process of obtaining an ESG score and its “utility?”


this is the 1st I heard about the score part. so no idea.
 

tsumake

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explained in this part "cut's off funding opportunities because it's extra self regulation that isn't applied throughout the industry. and hardly at all on the global level (the only part that is effective globally is the environment, and to different standards)."




that is the idea. but it doesn't work. at least not without cost. activist board members could refuse partners or funding from non complying investing entities or individuals. these investors would then take their money to competitors. also if a company is bogged down worrying to much with ESG compliance and ignore growth or profit opportunities they may be considered a liability for capital.

99% of people invest because they want more money. not because they want to fix the world.

Apple/Google talk the talk. but they have billions in interests in parts of the world that are very far of from ESG "standards". a company like Red Bull just said "nope" and fired the execs who wanted to the company to appear more socially responsible.




this is the 1st I heard about the score part. so no idea.

Would you say there’s an irrationality from companies seeking an ESG score? Is it just corporate virtue signaling?
 

Amiga

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Would you say there’s an irrationality from companies seeking an ESG score? Is it just corporate virtue signaling?

companies don't go seeking this. it's gets pushed from outside activists individuals or organizations. these individuals or organizations provide compliance "consulting" for fees (kind of like a protection racket). but some of these people are really into it and not for the money. they got influenced in universities or in their social media circles. they will promote their ideas at their workplace. and try to push out those who seem "ignorant".

so the pressure comes from below or outside, rarely from the top. so the leadership goes with times and keeps up with appearances. they throw a bone here and there. a few comments on social media and the rainbow flag for a while doesn't cost any money and keeps away the pressure.
 

tsumake

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companies don't go seeking this. it's gets pushed from outside activists individuals or organizations. these individuals or organizations provide compliance "consulting" for fees (kind of like a protection racket). but some of these people are really into it and not for the money. they got influenced in universities or in their social media circles. they will promote their ideas at their workplace. and try to push out those who seem "ignorant".

so the pressure comes from below or outside, rarely from the top. so the leadership goes with times and keeps up with appearances. they throw a bone here and there. a few comments on social media and the rainbow flag for a while doesn't cost any money and keeps away the pressure.

So you think it’s a case of “give an inch, take a mile?”
 
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