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Game Dev CEO of HOUSEMARQUE: we are truly thankful to our publishing partner Sony, who has given us an opportunity to work on something very risky.

ethomaz

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No it isn`t.
Housemarque is not a Sony studio.
Returnal is a "Sony funded" 3rd party PS exclusive.
Depends who own the IP.

Bloodborne is first-party even if developed by a 3rd-party.

Edit - I did a little check and Returnal seems like to be a 1st-party game.
 
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Reality Czar

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Linear, third person, over the shoulder, sad Dad (Mom) game where you shoot thousands of underpowered AI enemies and watch cutscenes occasionally.
Bad video game is a video game. Bad! Not good! Linear is bad. Gameplay is bad. Cutscenes bad. Everything so bad.
 
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Hezekiah

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This is what I love about Sony, they're not afraid to take risks and put their money where there mouth is.

A lot of people had doubts about Returnal (myself included) but the gameplay and reviews look really promising.

With Ratchet, Kena, and Horizon to come, this is looking like a better debut year than PS4 and every other Playstation.
 
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Haggard

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Depends who own the IP.
1st/2nd/3rd party definition rests on the developers relationship with the platform holder. Housemarque is independent and returnal a piece of comissioned work.
That makes it a playstation exclusive but also a 3rd party game as long as housemarque is in the picture at all.

It's a 2nd party game, technically 1st party game (a PlayStation Studios game): a 1st party company publishes, a 3rd party studio develops.
2nd party, depending on if you acknowledge that category, yes. But never a first party game due to the 3rd party developer. Ownership of IP does not count towards this categorization this rests entriely on who the developer is.
In professional development this only changes once the original developer is completely out of the picture and all responsibility for the game is transferred to the "first" party or the developer is bought outright.
 
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ethomaz

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Nope, that just defines the platform exlusivity. 1st/2nd/3rd party definition rests on the developers relationship with the platform holder. Housemarque is independent and returnal a piece of comissioned work.
That makes it a playstation exclusive 3rd party game.
That is the wrong definition.

First-party are games where the intelectual property is on the platform hands.
Third-party are games where the intelectual property is on the 3rd-party hands.

Second-party is just a "made up" name by journalists to describe first-party games developed by third-party devs.. it doesn't exists in the industry at all.

Bloodborne is first-party.
All games created by Insonmiac before purchase for Sony were 1st-party.

Returnal I'm not sure... if the IP is with Sony then it is first-party... if not then it is a 3rd-party exclusive.
But all media I read defines it as first-party so Sony seems to own the IP.

Edit - There is some atypical cases like The Show on PS5 is first-party but on Xbox it is 3rd-party.
 
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Snake00

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Linear, third person, over the shoulder, sad Dad (Mom) game where you shoot thousands of underpowered AI enemies and watch cutscenes occasionally.
"Yeah, when I saw the trailer I thought this was basically the same as TLoU/Uncharted."
Said no one ever.

Nope, that just defines the platform exlusivity. 1st/2nd/3rd party definition rests on the developers relationship with the platform holder. Housemarque is independent and returnal a piece of comissioned work.
That makes it a playstation exclusive but also a 3rd party game.
Third party but playstation exclusive IP's are a thing. Example: Final Fantasy 16.
 
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Haggard

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Third party but playstation exclusive IP's are a thing. Example: Final Fantasy 16.
absolutely correct. But exclusivity doesn`t make FF16 a first party game. :)

That is the wrong definition.
nope it isn`t.
I linked several definitons a bit earlier in the thread.

The developer is the deciding factor. IP ownership doesn`t matter.
But anyways I´ve had that discussion already. Decide for yourself what you want to believe.
 
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Zeroing

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I did wrote some time ago that this was certainly Sony pushing housemarque to push beyond their comfort zone. Meaning both were talking risks.

Will it pay off? It is already. For example, Everyone is talking about housemarque…a not well know studio. That makes people more curious about what they did previously.
 
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ethomaz

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absolutely correct. But exclusivity doesn`t make FF16 a first party game. :)


nope it isn`t.
I linked several definitons a bit earlier in the thread.

The developer is the deciding factor. IP ownership doesn`t matter.
But anyways I´ve had that discussion already. Decide for yourself what you want to believe.
It is the definition lol

It is about IP owership.

Bloodborne is and always will be first-party... you can't change that.
Demon's Souls is first-party and From had to create a clone to go 3rd-party.
 
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muteZX

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Please tell me one single PS2 game that mixes AAA 3rd person over the soulder camera action game with bullet hell shooting arcade gameplay mixed with roguelike and horror stuff and so on. For me it's something new, I never saw it before.

Literally everyone. PS2 gameplay = running avatar shoots at things. Zero next gen game mechanics, extensive, inovative traversing, next gen AI, rope-soft-hard-fluid physics, non-static terrain, etc. etc. etc. etc. "PS2 gameplay". The PS2 can play this game playfully.

Returnal is a simple action TPS AA rogue like game, gameplay-wise class PS2. Deal with it. Housemarque knows what they did.
 

Haggard

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It is the definition lol
Your personal one maybe. Not the official one.

It is about IP owership.
Nope.
Bloodborne is and always will be first-party... you can't change that.
No need to change what never was the case. From Software does not belong to Sony.
Demon's Souls is first-party and From had to create a clone to go 3rd-party.
BluePoint does not belong to Sony.

But again, believe what you want.
 
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yurinka

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Literally everyone. PS2 gameplay = running avatar shoots at things. Zero next gen game mechanics, extensive, inovative traversing, next gen AI, rope-soft-hard-fluid physics, non-static terrain, etc. etc. etc. etc. "PS2 gameplay". The PS2 can play this game playfully.

Returnal is a simple action TPS AA rogue like game, gameplay-wise class PS2. Deal with it. Housemarque knows what they did.
So according to you Returnal is also exactly the same than Fortnite, Halo and Contra on the NES, because they are games with running avatars shooting at things. What a dumb reasoning.

No need to change what never was the case. From Software does not belong to Sony.

BluePoint does not belong to Sony.

But again, believe what you want.
Both Bloodborne and Demon's Souls are published by Sony, what makes them 1st party. They are (at least mostly) developed by a 3rd party (this is, a studio not owned by the first party) studio, which makes these games 2nd party in addition to first party.

Sony owns both Bloodborne and Demon's Souls brands, so they are 1st party IPs. If Sony wants, tomorrow they can ask Naughty Dog or the Destruction All Stars guys to make a Bloodborne Kart game without even asking From Software. From Software can't make a Bloodborne game without Sony.

1st/2nd/3rd party definition rests on the developers relationship with the platform holder. Housemarque is independent and returnal a piece of comissioned work.
That makes it a playstation exclusive but also a 3rd party game as long as housemarque is in the picture at all.


2nd party, depending on if you acknowledge that category, yes. But never a first party game due to the 3rd party developer. Ownership of IP does not count towards this categorization this rests entriely on who the developer is.
In professional development this only changes once the original developer is completely out of the picture and all responsibility for the game is transferred to the "first" party or the developer is bought outright.
First party are the games published by the console platform holder, who like in this Returnal case, also owns the IP.

These first party games sometimes they are developed by an external studios not owned by the platform holder (so they are 3rd party studio). A game published by the 1st party and developed by a 3rd party studio is known as 2nd party.

There has been cases where the first party allowed that studio to port the game to PC or mobile, even with another publisher (Death Stranding, Journey) but games still are first party. Even in some case sold the IP to the dev (Rime).

A 3rd party game is when the 1st party isn't the publisher of the game. It's published and developed by someone else other than the 1st party, whose publisher or dev also owns that IP. That is, Street Fighter V, Monster Hunter Rise and so on.
 
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ethomaz

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Your personal one maybe. Not the official one.


Nope.

No need to change what never was the case. From Software does not belong to Sony.

BluePoint does not belong to Sony.

But again, believe what you want.
You are just mixing the terms... 1st-party studio/3rd-party studio with 1st-party game / 3rd-party game.

Definitions
1st-party studio = studio owned by the platform holder
3rd-party studio = studio not owned by the platform holder

1st-party game = game owned by the platform holder
3rd-party game = game not owned by the platform holder


The Show 2021 is a 1st-party studio developing a 1st-party game on PS.
The Show 2021 is a 1st-party studio developing a 3rd-party game on Xbox.
Bloorborne is a 3rd-party studio developing a 1st-party game on PS.
CoD is a 3rd-party studio developing a 3rd-party game on PS.

I give you all the industry possibilities.
When a 3rd-party Studio used to only developed 1st-party games it is used informally by journalist the terms 2nd-party studio (Insomniac in the past that only developed 1st-party games to Sony but not the case of From Software because they developed 3rd-party games too).

Edit - Added 2nd-party.
 
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Haggard

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You are just mixing the terms... 1st-party studio/3rd-party studio with 1st-party game / 3rd-party game.

1st-party studio = studio owned by the platform holder
3rd-party studio = studio not owned by the platform holder

1st-party game = game owned by the platform holder
3rd-party game = game not owned by the platform holder

The Show 2021 is a 1st-party studio developing a 1st-party game on PS.
The Show 2021 is a 1st-party studio developing a 3rd-party game on Xbox.

Bloorborne is a 3rd-party studio developing a 1st-party game on PS.

CoD is a 3rd-party studio developing a 3rd-party game on PS.
no no no and no. But I´ll not discuss this further. it`s pointless.

So according to you Returnal is also exactly the same than Fortnite, Halo and Contra on the NES, because they are games with running avatars shooting at things. What a dumb reasoning.


Both Bloodborne and Demon's Souls are published by Sony, what makes them 1st party. They are (at least mostly) developed by a 3rd party (this is, a studio not owned by the first party) studio, which makes these games 2nd party in addition to first party.

Sony owns both Bloodborne and Demon's Souls brands, so they are 1st party IPs. If Sony wants, tomorrow they can ask Naughty Dog or the Destruction All Stars guys to make a Bloodborne Kart game without even asking From Software. From Software can't make a Bloodborne game without Sony.
you`re mixing up IP ownership and original development. But ok whatever
 
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DeepEnigma

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You are just mixing the terms... 1st-party studio/3rd-party studio with 1st-party game / 3rd-party game.

Definitions
1st-party studio = studio owned by the platform holder
3rd-party studio = studio not owned by the platform holder

1st-party game = game owned by the platform holder
3rd-party game = game not owned by the platform holder


The Show 2021 is a 1st-party studio developing a 1st-party game on PS.
The Show 2021 is a 1st-party studio developing a 3rd-party game on Xbox.

Bloorborne is a 3rd-party studio developing a 1st-party game on PS.

CoD is a 3rd-party studio developing a 3rd-party game on PS.

I give you all the industry possibilities.
Hes Right GIF by MOODMAN
 

ToTTenTranz

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You are just mixing the terms... 1st-party studio/3rd-party studio with 1st-party game / 3rd-party game.

Definitions
1st-party studio = studio owned by the platform holder
3rd-party studio = studio not owned by the platform holder

1st-party game = game owned by the platform holder
3rd-party game = game not owned by the platform holder


The Show 2021 is a 1st-party studio developing a 1st-party game on PS.
The Show 2021 is a 1st-party studio developing a 3rd-party game on Xbox.

Bloorborne is a 3rd-party studio developing a 1st-party game on PS.

CoD is a 3rd-party studio developing a 3rd-party game on PS.

I give you all the industry possibilities.
I believe what you mean with "1st-party game made by 3rd party studio" is usually called a "2nd-party game". It's basically having the console maker funding the game development by an independent studio, which leads to the game IP belonging to the console maker.

E.g. Demon's Souls, Death Stranding and Bayonetta 2.
 
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I believe what you mean with "1st-party game made by 3rd party studio" is usually called a "2nd-party game". It's basically having the console maker funding the game development by an independent studio, which leads to the game IP belonging to the console maker.

E.g. Demon's Souls, Death Stranding and Bayonetta 2.

Nope it's just a third party making a first party game

Second party is a special use case, i.e maybe pokemon
 
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ethomaz

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I believe what you mean with "1st-party game made by 3rd party studio" is usually called a "2nd-party game". It's basically having the console maker funding the game development by an independent studio, which leads to the game IP belonging to the console maker.

E.g. Demon's Souls, Death Stranding and Bayonetta 2.
Thanks... I added a edit with the 2nd-party part.

"When a 3rd-party Studio used to only developed 1st-party games it is used informally by journalist the terms 2nd-party studio (Insomniac in the past that only developed 1st-party games to Sony but not the case of From Software because they developed 3rd-party games too)."

Demon's Sous is a first-party game.
From Software never developed only first-party games so they were never called a second-party studio.
There is some confusion about the Death Stranding ownership so I will not claim either.
Bayonetta I need to check because it is really very confusing but I believe it is a 3rd-party exclusive.

The best example of second-party studio was Insomniac before Overdrive... they just worked in 1st-party games for Sony... the Pokemon studio is a example of 2nd-party studio too.
 
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kyoji

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Proud of Housemarque! I've been high off this games appeal for me personally after its initial showing at the ps5 game show case last year.

Time for Sony to go ahead and make it official and tie the knot with HM, Bluepoint, etc. also go on ahead and scoop up capcom and square while youre at it Sony, You are the big dog on the block, no cap
 

muteZX

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So according to you Returnal is also exactly the same than Fortnite, Halo and Contra on the NES, because they are games with running avatars shooting at things. What a dumb reasoning.
If I take a native PS5 game / Ryzen CPU, 10T GPU, SSD / and transfer it to PS2 and the gameplay will not suffer in any way - then it's a PS2 class game and maybe even a PS1. Something is running around shooting things.

All that monstrous power / CPU, GPU, SSD / was used as .. what .. where ..

I've been playing games for over 40 years, not 40 months.
 

DeepEnigma

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I believe what you mean with "1st-party game made by 3rd party studio" is usually called a "2nd-party game". It's basically having the console maker funding the game development by an independent studio, which leads to the game IP belonging to the console maker.

E.g. Demon's Souls, Death Stranding and Bayonetta 2.
2nd party doesn't exist, and was more of an internet trope. Many developers have come out about that made up term.

Nobody internally uses the term "2nd party," only us gamers in the internets.
 

yurinka

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If I take a native PS5 game / Ryzen CPU, 10T GPU, SSD / and transfer it to PS2 and the gameplay will not suffer in any way - then it's a PS2 class game and maybe even a PS1. Something is running around shooting things.

All that monstrous power / CPU, GPU, SSD / was used as .. what .. where ..

I've been playing games for over 40 years, not 40 months.
I am still waiting for a single example of a AAA TPS roguelike with bullet hell arcade gameplay on PS2. If you have been playing for 40 years you'll know that it didn't exist. And less with a narrative, cinematic horror focus and with an old ugly lady as main character.
 
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Fbh

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It's not the riskiest of game (I mean, it's not a AAA nail salon simulator or something) but I can definitely see the point.
There actually aren't that many (if any) full priced AAA rouge likes that I can think of. And Housemark, while great, was struggling a bit after 2 games with underperforming sales.

After all the talk of Sony only investing in big and safe AAA assured blockbusters I'm still not seeing it. Demon Souls is still rather niche, Returnal is still a rather risky game in that price range and even Ratchet, while more established, isn't exactly the "cinematic Sony game" people are always complaining about.


I did wrote some time ago that this was certainly Sony pushing housemarque to push beyond their comfort zone. Meaning both were talking risks.

Will it pay off? It is already. For example, Everyone is talking about housemarque…a not well know studio. That makes people more curious about what they did previously.

Housemarque themselves decided to try out something different after their 2 previous games (Matterfall and Nex Machina) failed to sell well.

Still, it's great of Sony to believe in their new project. At one point there must have been some meeting in line with "hey so our two previous games kinda bombed and now we need more money than ever to make our biggest project yet in a genre that's somewhat outside our comfort zone, please believe in us"
 
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muteZX

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I am still waiting for a single example of a AAA TPS roguelike with bullet hell arcade gameplay on PS2. If you have been playing for 40 years you'll know that it didn't exist. And less with a narrative, cinematic horror focus and with an old ugly lady as main character.


Grow up and see. You got advice from a much more experienced player. If you want to keep playing technically trivial things on the PS5, keep doing it but be reasonable and don't pay more than 20 euros / usd.
 

yurinka

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Grow up and see. You got advice from a much more experienced player. If you want to keep playing technically trivial things on the PS5, keep doing it but be reasonable and don't pay more than 20 euros / usd.
I've been playing for 40 years too, and developing games since 16 years ago, many of them top companies. In fact, I rejected a job offer from Housemarque many years ago, and I have at least (probably 2 or 3, not sure if still ther) a former coworker there whose first game at Housemarque was Returnal.

I didn't got advice, you just wrote non-sensical stuff. You have no fucking idea of how expensive, difficult and risky is to make a game like Returnal. I won't pay 80 euro for it, but I'll gladly pay 60 for it. And you have no idea about shooters or game design if you think the gameplay of a generic PS2 TPS is remotely similar to the 2D bullet hell arcade gameplay of a Housemarque game and that it's easy to mix them. Or if you think that to introduce the roguelike part isn't a big change for basically all the game design, progress and narrative of the game. Or that to mix the 2D bullet hell arcade gameplay with a cinematic, narrative AAA Sony stuff is an easy, simple stuff.

This game is very risky, bold and brave bet that tries to achieve many challenges.
 
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Fredrik

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Would love to play this! No PS5 here though. Who owns the IP, Sony or Housemarque? Is there a chance it could arrive on PC?
 

mckmas8808

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2nd party doesn't exist, and was more of an internet trope. Many developers have come out about that made up term.

Nobody internally uses the term "2nd party," only us gamers in the internets.

I'd like us to bring that term back. It's easier to understand.
 

DeepEnigma

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I'd like us to bring that term back. It's easier to understand.
It really isn't though.

IP rights are IP rights. A lot of these 3rd party developed 1st party games are also so intertwined with 1st party dev team support and tools that they are just that, 1st party games.

It's very rare now where a 3rd party developed 1st party game don't work closely with a 1st party team and tools. They are 1st party games. It's really not that hard.
 
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nowhat

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DeepEnigma

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Those damned gamers in the internets!
Well, he had to say it in a language we can understand, eh? He is calling himself 2nd party, not the game. That also makes me think they will be taken into the WWS fold, since he made sure not to say 3rd party as in "available for other systems to contract them." Maybe I am reading too much into it, but I would not be shocked if they were WWS very soon, especially with the great reviews.

It's still a first party game at the end of the day. Who own's the IP?
 
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nowhat

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It's still a first party game. Who own's the IP?
I don't know, and frankly don't care. And yes, Sony totally should get Housemarque, I was of the opinion way before Returnal was released. But it's not a publicly traded company, so it's not so straightforward.

Just that I think it's both fascinating and brain-hurting that such a simple blog post can devolve into several pages of virtual dick-waggling about what constitutes "first party", especially when all parties can be correct or wrong depending on the point of view, and ultimately it doesn't matter at all.
 
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killatopak

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I don't know, and frankly don't care. And yes, Sony totally should get Housemarque, I was of the opinion way before Returnal was released. But it's not a publicly traded company, so it's not so straightforward.

Just that I think it's both fascinating and brain-hurting that such a simple blog post can devolve into several pages of virtual dick-waggling about what constitutes "first party", especially when all parties can be correct or wrong depending on the point of view, and ultimately it doesn't matter at all.
Can’t help it.

 

ethomaz

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Would love to play this! No PS5 here though. Who owns the IP, Sony or Housemarque? Is there a chance it could arrive on PC?
Hard to say... the last Housemarque games in partnership with Sony were exclusives.
Resogun and Materfall released only on PS consoles.

They did have a multiplatform game not related to Sony that come to PC... Nex Machina.
 

MHubert

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Evidence of what? That Returnal is owned by Sony?

Haggard provided definitions that he didn't even read or understand lmao
Evidence that the term '1st/3rd party software(game)' has anything to do with the ownership of intellectual property.

I know this is annoying, but here are some quotes from what has so far been the only source reference provided in this discussion:

Third Party software:
"software created by programmers or publishers independent of the manufacturer of the hardware for which it is intended"

"Third party software refers to programs that are developed by companies other than the company that developed the computer's operating system. Therefore, any Macintosh applications that are not developed by Apple are considered third party applications. Likewise, any Windows programs developed by companies other than Microsoft are called third party programs. Since most programs are developed by companies other than Apple and Microsoft, third party applications make up the majority of software programs."

Third party developer:
"Third Party Developer means an entity, other than Respondent, the Commission-approved Acquirer of the AXSYS Assets, or their respective customers, that is engaged in the development of Software for process industries."


These definitions align perfectly with what I (and others) have been saying so far.

So please, show me where these definitions are used to describe ownership rights outside of made-up forum jargon.
 

sublimit

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I mean this game was created 4 years ago... you do know 4 years was along time ago, right?
Pre-production obviously started a long time ago but that means nothing. Pre-production stage doesn't cost that much. It's the full development stage that is more costly and that is when usually companies hire more stuff.And that is when games usually get cancelled because development costs get out of proportion and there is risk they might not reach their sales targets. Full development of Returnal didn't start long before Jim Ryan took over and if what Schreier said had any truth in it "bad guy" Jim Ryan would have cancelled it due to it being too risky as a project and due to not reaching its target sales (which is the most likely outcome).
 
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Evidence that the term '1st/3rd party software(game)' has anything to do with the ownership of intellectual property.

I know this is annoying, but here are some quotes from what has so far been the only source reference provided in this discussion:

Third Party software:
"software created by programmers or publishers independent of the manufacturer of the hardware for which it is intended"

"Third party software refers to programs that are developed by companies other than the company that developed the computer's operating system. Therefore, any Macintosh applications that are not developed by Apple are considered third party applications. Likewise, any Windows programs developed by companies other than Microsoft are called third party programs. Since most programs are developed by companies other than Apple and Microsoft, third party applications make up the majority of software programs."

Third party developer:
"Third Party Developer means an entity, other than Respondent, the Commission-approved Acquirer of the AXSYS Assets, or their respective customers, that is engaged in the development of Software for process industries."

These definitions align perfectly with what I (and others) have been saying so far.

So please, show me where these definitions are used to describe ownership rights outside of made-up forum jargon.

I'll ask you what that looney clowned himself on too

Why is Naughty Dog called a first party developer
 
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AgentP

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Meanwhile at MS, the Gears guys had their original IP canceled by MS to churn out more Gears.