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Can I be honest here...I don’t think the Xbox Series S is going to last very long into the generation.

Riky

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I think looking and running amazing as he says will be enough for most people who own the machine, I'm pleased he's happy with the performance.
 

Hobbygaming

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So all they ps5 cross gen games are being designed for the PS4 first and then just ported across? Even GT7 which originally was stated as being PS5 exclusive?

so by your own statement they will scrap the PS5 version and just make a PS4 version and scale it up?
Yes, they're being designed with the lowest common denominator (PS4) in mind. They can't go too crazy with the bandwidth yet because crossgen titles are shackled to old hardware
 

phil_t98

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Yes, they're being designed with the lowest common denominator (PS4) in mind. They can't go too crazy with the bandwidth yet because crossgen titles are shackled to old hardware

So they completely scrapped the ps5 version of GT7 and just made a PS4 version and ported to PS5 then?
 
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Hobbygaming

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So they completely scrapped the ps5 version of GT7 and just made a PS4 version and ported to PS5 then?
They most likely already had a PS4 version in the works early on. And it's a racer, it would be the "easiest" to get running on both
 
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ZywyPL

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So they completely scrapped the ps5 version of GT7 and just made a PS4 version and ported to PS5 then?

They most likely already had a PS4 version in the works early on. And it's a racer, it would be the "easiest" to get running on both

Sony said in an interview that releasing GT7 also on PS4 was a decision took that was taken very late into the development. So most likely the game simply wasn't that much of a quality jump from GT:S on PS4 to begin with, hence PD was able to port the game so fast.
 
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phil_t98

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They most likely already had a PS4 version in the works early on. And it's a racer, it would be the "easiest" to get running on both

If you look back at the reveal it says PS5 exclusive so I take it that the PS4 version was not in development then or they would of said. Now the fact its a racer you say it would be easiest to get to run on both? How’s the logic on that?

Remember Forza Horizon 2 being cross gen and was 2 completely different games
 
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phil_t98

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Sony said in an interview that releasing GT7 also on PS4 was a decision took that was taken very late into the development. So most likely the game simply wasn't that much of a quality jump from GT:S on PS4 to begin with, hence PD was able to port the game so fast.

Or maybe its actually easy to scale down A game ?
 
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ZywyPL

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Or maybe its actually easy to scale down A game ?

Could be this, given the game wasn't going to support RT anyway. So a basic drop in resolution and more aggressive LoD should do the job. But yeah, I've been telling it long time ago that given x86 architecture the games on PS5/XSX will be running on the exact same engines from PS4/XB1, so making cross-gen titles is easier than ever before.
 

Skifi28

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It'll last just fine. It's just a question on whether people are fine with playing sub-720p games. I'm not, but it's cool.
 

Schmick

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Can't we just wait until we have moved completely onto next gen games before a decision has been made? There's plenty of next gen features that have not be fully utilised yet that would help with performance.

At the moment all I'm seeing in this thread are tainted opinions.
 
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Three

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Others say otherwise.
Not sure if you actually remember Gavin Stevens. He used to post here. Biggest xbox troll there ever was pre launch.
 
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Hezekiah

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You typed all that and are still wrong. The thread was about the technology of the XSS (120fps titles and resolution) and had nothing to do with sales or Europe. You brought those things up to obfuscate the reality that the more expensive system can't do things the cheaper one can. The bottom line is no matter your histrionics the 'vastly inferior' console has more features and a lower price. The very definition of a better value. You can whine, you can complain you can ignore the facts if you wish but that is the truth.

If a person is going around trying to say the XSS won't make it to the end generation how will a system with even fewer features make it? The answer of course is both will be fine. Perhaps you'd do well to just enjoy your PS5 or whatever console you have and ignore what you are clueless about. No one is forcing you or anyone else to buy an XSS but like it or not isn't going anywhere and that is great news for value oriented customers. You can't show any reason why the XSS can't run current generation titles and it's best to simply ignore what clearly isn't directed at you. There is no reason to listen to you or any other detractors when there are actually people who own the console who have far more credibility.
Erm...look at the original post. He literally says he thinks Series S in its current form isnt likely to last very far into the generation. Is this decline likely to happen sooner or later if sales continue to be poor? 💩

Of course I also mentioned the lack of storage space, RAM, aswell as the limited GPU power of the console and you were 'Nah it'll be right'. Then you got triggered, started console warring and talking about 1440p support, cloud saves, GamePass and having to pay for PS5 upgrades. And you've got the balls to talk about obfuscation and histrionics 😄.

And of course the logical conclusion - PS5 is lacking some minor features some of which can easily be added, meanwhile Series S is simply underpowered as OP and others suggest, and the hardware specs for this original revision can't be changed (outside of the Seagate expansion), and will be really chugging along once proper next-gen games get more demanding with less resolution and worse frame rates as a result.

At least you've stopped talking nonsense about the Xbox brand in the European market and that being the main reason for Series S potentially being a flop here 😁. But spitting your dummy isn't going to improve sales, and it's not going to help its prospects going forward.
 

Bernd Lauert

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Erm...look at the original post. He literally says he thinks Series S in its current form isnt likely to last very far into the generation. Is this decline likely to happen sooner or later if sales continue to be poor? 💩

Of course I also mentioned the lack of storage space, RAM, aswell as the limited GPU power of the console and you were 'Nah it'll be right'. Then you got triggered, started console warring and talking about 1440p support, cloud saves, GamePass and having to pay for PS5 upgrades. And you've got the balls to talk about obfuscation and histrionics 😄.

And of course the logical conclusion - PS5 is lacking some minor features some of which can easily be added, meanwhile Series S is simply underpowered as OP and others suggest, and the hardware specs for this original revision can't be changed (outside of the Seagate expansion), and will be really chugging along once proper next-gen games get more demanding with less resolution and worse frame rates as a result.

At least you've stopped talking nonsense about the Xbox brand in the European market and that being the main reason for Series S potentially being a flop here 😁. But spitting your dummy isn't going to improve sales, and it's not going to help its prospects going forward.
Series S sales are poor? You got some numbers we don't have?
 

FireFly

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Brand new machine that's been easily obtainable for months in stark contrast to the other next-gen consoles...try reading the thread.
All that tells us is that it's not selling as well as the XSX, assuming similar quantities are being produced (which itself seems like a big assumption since the APU is a lot smaller).
 

ReBurn

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I do. Watch his recent DOOM interview from two months ago with Digital Foundry where John brings up Series S asking why ray tracing is missing from that console, Billy replies that they tried RT out on Series S, even with optimization, they couldn't so they chose to drop RT altogether. Then he adds, there are differences in the hardware, y'know" in other words, even with optimization the S wasn't capable of RT in DOOM due to "differences in the HW" i.e. hardware limitation. He initially brought up two major issues with the console: one was split memory banks with drastically slower speeds (bandwidth) which he said will be a major issue, the second big issue was the amount of memory itself, and how much lower it was.

And now we see the results of those issues, no RT from his game on the console and he was right from the get-go. We know the game already makes use of VRS tier 2 on Xbox (even the PC version doesn't), who knows maybe they're even using SFS here which would come under the "optimizations" he spoke of. 🤷‍♂️ We won't know until they do something like a SIGGRAPH or GDC talk. Still, features like SFS are only going to get you so far, it's a memory-saving feature, not an infinite memory feature. At the end of the day, you are going to hit a wall one way or another. IMO MS should have added a bit more memory and slightly more BW to avoid situations like this, and to tackle the issues that Billy brought up. After all, this is the talented id Software we're talking about... MS 1P studio, not some no-name dev company from the industry.
Everyone knows there are differences in the hardware, but that's not the same thing as the hardware missing features. The fact that other developers were able to get their games running on Series S with hardware features that this developer couldn't manage to incorporate is the grain of salt you need to take this story with. Developer blames the hardware is a tale as old as time.
 

Duchess

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Back in July, the Series consoles had sold 6.5 million between them.

What do we all reckon the split will be? 50/50..?

It's perhaps 60/40 in Series S's favour, given the availability.
 

SkylineRKR

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As much as I like the S I don't think its selling that great. I could easily pick it up in November, unlike PS5 and X. It was always available until this very day. I've seen it being offered on Amazon.de for 50 below the RRP numerous times. I've seen in this thread its no different in other parts of the world.

The only consoles I can buy right now are base PS4, Xbox One and Series S. Right now they offer FIFA 22 for free with the S.

With the current shortages, I assume its not selling gangbusters.
 
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cireza

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It's always been in stock since launch.
Try to think at all the sales MS would have lost if they had not make this model. It is smaller, simpler to manufacture, and more importantly : it is available. A ton of people have been buying this console, sometimes for the sole reason that it is the only one available, but overall, because it offers so much for the price.

Sony would have liked to be in this situation, you can be sure of it. MS were very smart to make such a model, it shows how they anticipated the market years in advance.
 
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vaibhavpisal

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Back in July, the Series consoles had sold 6.5 million between them.

What do we all reckon the split will be? 50/50..?

It's perhaps 60/40 in Series S's favour, given the availability.

33/66 in favour of series x.

Phil said they are making more series x as expected demand of bigger brother is higher.

Series S has already sold 2-2.5 million units.
 

Aroll

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I owned a Series X at launch. Sold it for extra money on a vacation and bought a Series S last week. My thoughts - so far (since there are so few next gen only games) - I honestly don't even realize I'm playing on the S compared to the X, and that's on a 70inch 4k TV.

And I love hardware. So, if I am having a hard time noticing when I am just casually playing games - I don't think Series S is going have any issue sticking around.
 
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cireza

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Didn't PS5 break 10 million, nearly 2:1 vs Xbox? Dunno if they want to swap.
That's not my point.

If they could have sold 5 millions more consoles, had they offered a true budget model, you can be sure they would have done it.
 
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SkylineRKR

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That's not my point.

If they could have sold 5 millions more consoles, had they offered a true budget model, you can be sure they would have done it.

Yeah no.

You see, Sony still has the PS4 which is a legit good console and still sells. Microsoft has a more shitty One S, and a One X thats kind of replaced by the S.

They both offer the same amount of SKU, look it up.
 
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cireza

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Yeah no.

You see, Sony still has the PS4 which is a legit good console and still sells. Microsoft has a more shitty One S, and a One X thats kind of replaced by the S.

They both offer the same amount of SKU, look it up.
PS4 is not a next-gen console. It will not be supported the entire generation.
 

SkylineRKR

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PS4 is not a next-gen console. It will not be supported the entire generation.

Which by the time the shortages are a thing of the past and PS5 can be bought left and right anyway. Perhaps they even have an upgrade or budget version by then.

The very question was originally if S will be supported throughout the gen. I don't know. They could trim the X at some point and slash its price.
 
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Or maybe its actually easy to scale down A game ?
Maybe it depends on the game. I'm not surprised that a game like GT can easily be scaled down, the camera moves in a very predictable way (remove track side details, cut texture size, reduce shader quality in one way or another, etc.) it will mostly fit in memory, tracks that take forever to load on PS4 will load in a second on the PS5 and they will look much better too.

Some games lend themselves very well to scaling very low.
 
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cireza

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They could trim the X at some point and slash its price
Consoles don't drop price like crazy anymore, this is not 2000. PS4 is still pretty expensive. People waiting for PS5 or Series X to drop price significantly will wait for a long time. Series S will remain available all this time being the cheap entry and that's a great position that attracts a wide audience. MS have zero reason to drop this.
 
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Duchess

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Or maybe its actually easy to scale down A game ?
Ways you can do it:

* In-game models with fewer polygons
* Less intelligent AI (as more RAM is required for the smarts)
* Break the map down into chunks, and load them in as needed (extreme, but is a valid method - this is how they did Quake 2 on the PS1)
* Fewer NPCs
* Fewer trees, flowers, etc. Less grass. Remove small details, like wildlife.
* Use fewer alpha effects (VRAM saving)
* Turn off some effects entirely (more VRAM saving)
* Use lower resolution textures (yep, VRAM)

I suppose something else you could do is use the SSD as temporary storage, to save on your real RAM, but I imagine Sony and MS discourage this, as it would reduce the lifespan of the drive.
 

SkylineRKR

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I don't know the sales numbers obviously but I have seen Series S sitting on shelves in WalMarts and even my local Gamestop had several sitting out on a table in the middle of the store and my buddy even said about the Gamestop ones "No one wants these"

This the same sentiments i'm getting but this means it being marketed wrongly.

As the S is basically offering the same experience as the X, with some graphical limitations ofcourse. I figure there are still a number of 1080p owners out there, for them the S makes sense as it far outperforms the last-gen systems and the One X is out of production (and also inferior outside of some BC).

But perhaps its simply because its digital only. I think that still scares off buyers. What if it had a disc drive?
 

Hezekiah

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That doesn't mean sales are poor, I can easily get an iPhone 13, are it's sales poor?
It just means they are meeting demand, a good thing.
Right but nowhere near meeting demand for the Series X. Funny that.

And comparing another electronic device in a different category isnt helpful. Series X and PS5 are much better comparisons.
 
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HeisenbergFX4

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This the same sentiments i'm getting but this means it being marketed wrongly.

As the S is basically offering the same experience as the X, with some graphical limitations ofcourse. I figure there are still a number of 1080p owners out there, for them the S makes sense as it far outperforms the last-gen systems and the One X is out of production (and also inferior outside of some BC).

But perhaps its simply because its digital only. I think that still scares off buyers. What if it had a disc drive?
It even goes back to when I preordered the XSX.

I sat outside with several other people at Gamestop and the numbers on the door showed there were no more XSX left but some Series S and people would walk up and once they found that out they left.

I think I will eventually pick one or two up at some point to replace some Xbox Ones on smaller TVs its still a monster upgrade for those.
 
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phil_t98

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Ways you can do it:

* In-game models with fewer polygons
* Less intelligent AI (as more RAM is required for the smarts)
* Break the map down into chunks, and load them in as needed (extreme, but is a valid method - this is how they did Quake 2 on the PS1)
* Fewer NPCs
* Fewer trees, flowers, etc. Less grass. Remove small details, like wildlife.
* Use fewer alpha effects (VRAM saving)
* Turn off some effects entirely (more VRAM saving)
* Use lower resolution textures (yep, VRAM)

I suppose something else you could do is use the SSD as temporary storage, to save on your real RAM, but I imagine Sony and MS discourage this, as it would reduce the lifespan of the drive.

We had complicated games last gen with slower ram , slower cpu, slower gpu and slow HDD. They can achieve a lot with the series s, after all its not meant to be a top of the range console. I imagine the people buying it are not gonna want to play Fortnite in 4k on that console. There is still plenty of TV’s in bedrooms that can still only do 1080p
 
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phil_t98

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Maybe it depends on the game. I'm not surprised that a game like GT can easily be scaled down, the camera moves in a very predictable way (remove track side details, cut texture size, reduce shader quality in one way or another, etc.) it will mostly fit in memory, tracks that take forever to load on PS4 will load in a second on the PS5 and they will look much better too.

Some games lend themselves very well to scaling very low.

Yes but dont forget with the series S it has a very capable CPU a very capable GPU and a fast SSD, the console is meant to be a cut down gaming console but will in no way need to scale to the level of what they need to do with GT7 on PS4
 

Hezekiah

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Wait a year or so and if xss gets to 200$ it's gonna sell gangbusters.
All of the most popular consoles have 'sold gangbusters' at their original price.

I find it hard to believe that an already cheap console that offers GamePass for peanuts is going to suddenly start selling at a significantly higher rate at this magic $200 price point. Especially when its limitations are only going to become more and more pronounced over time.
 
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SlimySnake

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Sony said in an interview that releasing GT7 also on PS4 was a decision took that was taken very late into the development.
Did they? IIRC, it was just some no-name site who reported it from unnamed sources. It makes no sense looking at the visuals which look identical to GT Sports. The game was always a PS4 title.
 

phil_t98

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Did they? IIRC, it was just some no-name site who reported it from unnamed sources. It makes no sense looking at the visuals which look identical to GT Sports. The game was always a PS4 title.

I think you need to re look at both games as GT7 looks miles ahead of GTsport and I am a GTsport fan