• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
  • The Politics forum has been nuked. Please do not bring political discussion to the rest of the site, or you will be removed. Thanks.

Can I be honest here...I don’t think the Xbox Series S is going to last very long into the generation.

dvdvideo

Member
Sep 15, 2005
2,918
3,102
1,690
This is one of the stupidest arguments I've ever read here. To overcome the amount of RAM needed all you need is more RAM bandwidth, i/o, and processor(?)... I've read it all.
No need for more memory, I guess?

Here's a real-world e.g. of what happens if you just increase the bandwidth without increasing the amount of the memory.

3060 (w/ 360 GB/s, 12GB) is beating both 3070 & 3060 Ti (w/ 448 GB/s, 8GB) here when limited by the amount of VRAM.


Anyway, Series S is RAM-limited as devs pointed out. Period.

Your chart proves literally nothing other than the exact same pc with bigger RAM video cards will get higher frame rates. This "real world example" pc example has nothing in common with Series S. The Series S is a custom designed whole system with closed architecture with on the fly compression. The I/O and SSD speed and BCPack compression are not being taken into account whatsoever.
Your point is the rough equivalent of saying one car has a 300 horsepower engine, it's faster. Yet down the road is a 250 horsepower car with far more torque, that can potentially win a race despite the "less ram".
 

Topher

Gold Member
Sep 25, 2020
3,313
10,022
630
Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Add the fact that certain games that are 120fps on XSX aren't on xss.
They should of went with 6TF and 12GB's.

I think MS should have made a digital version of XSX for $399 like Sony did with PS5 DE. The thing I couldn't get past when I had my XSS was the fact that upgrading storage made XSS more expensive than XSX. The economics of the thing didn't make sense so I returned it.
 

Md Ray

Member
Nov 12, 2016
3,882
12,500
735
This "real world example" pc example has nothing in common with Series S. The Series S is a custom designed whole system with closed architecture with on the fly compression.
Literally, every GPU in that chart supports all the features that Series S supports (DirectStorage, RTX IO for HW decompression), in fact, some of the features like mesh shading, sampler feedback came to PC first (via RTX 20 series), 2 years before the Series S and X even launched.
"on the fly compression" lmao...

Anyway, the point is, after One S, Series S will be the lowest common denominator with its least amount of RAM, not PC.
 
  • Triggered
Reactions: Kappa

S0ULZB0URNE

Member
Jan 27, 2020
4,020
5,007
655
I think MS should have made a digital version of XSX for $399 like Sony did with PS5 DE. The thing I couldn't get past when I had my XSS was the fact that upgrading storage made XSS more expensive than XSX. The economics of the thing didn't make sense so I returned it.
They wouldn't be able to keep a $399 XSX digital on the shelf!

Storage is a issue I am considering getting a external ssd for my nephew for his xss to play backwards compatible games.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Topher

vaibhavpisal

Member
Jun 10, 2019
1,873
2,881
455

MS executives also said a lot more things.

These 3 sentences are not all they said about series S.

They said settings could be reduced if needed.

You are acting as if they said this, then taped his mouth so as not to speak anything in detail.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Riky

dcmk7

Member
Mar 25, 2020
1,351
4,264
385
Offering different modes helps (Doom could easily have RT on Series S, for example).

That's a pretty wild claim.

Since RT in Doom Eternal isn't available on the Series S.. you're effectively saying that a MS first party studio isn't interested in spending time to make games have the same features as it's big bro?

But they felt it was worthwhile to spend time implementing RT for the PS5 version? That doesn't make much sense.

From what Jason Ronald was saying, the system is designed to have the same experiences, just at a lower resolution.. he made it sound pretty simple.

It's far more likely there were just technical limitations that meant it just couldn't be implemented. As we have seen on quite a lot of games so far. Either way it looks bad.

I'm sure if it could have been implemented it would have. Since why omit it otherwise? Be a bizarre decision.
 
Last edited:

dvdvideo

Member
Sep 15, 2005
2,918
3,102
1,690
Literally, every GPU in that chart supports all the features that Series S supports (DirectStorage, RTX IO for HW decompression), in fact, some of the features like mesh shading, sampler feedback came to PC first (via RTX 20 series), 2 years before the Series S and X even launched.
"on the fly compression" lmao...

Anyway, the point is, after One S, Series S will be the lowest common denominator with its least amount of RAM, not PC.

Right, and RTX IO requires an NVME to have any real effect, something which many PC's don't have. (your "test bed" system also had 16gb of ram and an NVME)
They also don't have the advantage of closed system. Series S is definitely not the lowest denominator, low end PC's are.
 

Schmick

Member
Aug 7, 2019
895
1,574
420
  • Like
Reactions: Phase

FireFly

Member
Aug 5, 2007
1,782
1,312
1,440
I think MS should have made a digital version of XSX for $399 like Sony did with PS5 DE. The thing I couldn't get past when I had my XSS was the fact that upgrading storage made XSS more expensive than XSX. The economics of the thing didn't make sense so I returned it.
The XSS will likely get storage upgrades as the price of flash memory comes down. The reason not to go for a $399 digital edition, is to not be stuck at that price for the whole generation. Since from what MS has said, the XSX is already losing money, and missing off the drive will probably only save $20. We also know that 5nm has only limited potential for cost reduction.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DarkMage619

Riky

My little VRR pleasure pearl goes vrrrooommm.
May 11, 2013
4,168
9,019
990
England

The key word is "designed" that isn't a guarantee. The bigger consoles are "designed" for 4k 60fps but don't achieve it either.

Jason Ronald also said this before the launch of the consoles,

"techniques, whether that’s changing the resolution of their title, things like dynamic resolution scaling frame to frame — that’s something we’ve seen a lot of adoption of, especially towards the end of this generation,” explains Ronald. “And obviously the ability to enable and display different visual effects, without actually implementing the fundamental gameplay.”

So no he didn't say it would just be a resolution difference.
 

elliot5

Member
Apr 22, 2021
2,923
6,572
450
The key word is "designed" that isn't a guarantee. The bigger consoles are "designed" for 4k 60fps but don't achieve it either.

Jason Ronald also said this before the launch of the consoles,

"techniques, whether that’s changing the resolution of their title, things like dynamic resolution scaling frame to frame — that’s something we’ve seen a lot of adoption of, especially towards the end of this generation,” explains Ronald. “And obviously the ability to enable and display different visual effects, without actually implementing the fundamental gameplay.”

So no he didn't say it would just be a resolution difference.
this conversation with dcmk has happened like at least 8 times just ignore and move on lol
 

DarkMage619

Member
Jun 19, 2004
3,312
6,164
1,635
No idea why you're talking about hundreds of games. Just a few games is enough to fill up the Series S and leave people having to constantly be moving stuff around - and as I mentioned Series games in several cases are a fair bit bigger than their PS5 equivalents.

Europe as a whole is a bigger market than the US. I have no idea why keep zeroing in on me, I'm talking about the wider markets. I haven't carried out any surveys, but clearly plenty of people in Europe, Middle East, Asia (Asia is more than Japan by the way, but I'm glad you're happy that Xbox is doing so much better there lol) etc don't want it and realise that it doesn't offer by 'far the most value' as you claim. Again what you struggle to grasp is that cheaper doesn't necessarily equal better value. And once again you're bringing up features that most people don't care about. Just listing stuff to point score. Sony producing a Digital Edition PS5 for just £100 more was a far better decision - for them and for gamers. How many people have you seen online asking for another PS5 that's only £100 cheaper, but isn't actually a 4K machine and is far less powerful?? What a bizarre statement to make about Sony not doing one.

I'm dealing in facts while you're getting in your feelings. Microsoft's exiting the console industry is irrelevant, a pointless issue to raise. The fact is that a few months after launch the Series S was easily obtainable at retailers in the biggest market (and in others) because demand is far lower than it is for the other next-gen consoles. No amount of grandstanding is going to change that.
Again casual gamers aren't going to have huge libraries of games sitting on their hard drives. That is what an enthusiast does. You are clearly confused by looking at it from your own personal perspective. YOU would have a problem with the small storage space despite the device not being targeted at you. If a person really did need more space there are inexpensive options available. Not every product is for everyone.

The sales of the Xbox in Europe (and Japan) are tied directly to brand popularity. PlayStation is an older and more popular brand and they didn't just come off a less than stellar previous generation. The performance of any Xbox there wouldn't be that impressive. Your mistaking brand popularity with options to casual gamers further shows your lack of understanding. If your point is that Xbox is less popular than PS then congrats I suppose. Still it has nothing to do with the fact that the XSS offers a superior value to any other current generation console.

The idea you think it has features 'people don't care about' again shows your lack of knowledge. No wonder you don't want to talk about Game pass or any other features. The 'gimped' console as you put it has more features than the $100 more expensive box. Sony made a decision that was best for SONY not for gamers. You think $10 game upgrades, and paid cloud saves is best for gamers? You think the convoluted mess with 'less than smart delivery' and the months it took for basic features to be added to the console was best for gamers? And you say I'M in my feelings? Even the out of context comments people made about developers complaining acknowledged that the XSS was a great value for gamers.

Your entire argument is based on feelings man. You are looking at this solely from your own personal experiences and your love for the PlayStation brand. You ignore any issues on that platform and try and invent and play up any perceived issues on another. I like and own a PlayStation myself but its because of that I can easily compare what the different platforms are offering and it's clear that the XSS is a better VALUE. You may personally like the PS games more and that is subjective but there is no denying that your dollar goes much further on an Xbox platform. The idea that you think price isn't important shows how detached you are from a world where many people can't afford gaming at all. In the end you failed to show why MS would drop the XSS before the end of the generation which is what this topic was about. The XSS will continue to get support and provide a terrific value option for gamers this entire generation and no amount of emotional ranting against MS will change that fact.

Add the fact that certain games that are 120fps on XSX aren't on xss.
They should of went with 6TF and 12GB's.
There re more 120FPS games on XSS than consoles that cost more.

I think MS should have made a digital version of XSX for $399 like Sony did with PS5 DE. The thing I couldn't get past when I had my XSS was the fact that upgrading storage made XSS more expensive than XSX. The economics of the thing didn't make sense so I returned it.
A $400 XSX would still be more expensive (for us and them) than a $300 XSS and MS was more interested in lowering the cost of entry into the Xbox ecosystem than selling the most consoles. Sony and Nintendo are the main companies focused on selling the most boxes. MS is putting xClould steaming for current generations games on the X1 clearly selling the most units isn't their goal isn't getting more Game pass subs. They have a slightly different goal so the comparisons don't exactly align.

The min spec I posted is 8gb of slow ram and 4gb of video ram. The entire 8gb available memory is literally twice the speed of the 1050ti's slower ddr5 ram, and that's without factoring hardware decompresssion. The cpu is much faster, and the ssd and i/o speeds matter too. It's not even close, the min pc spec listed is less than half the actual power of series S.
It's clear you don't understand the hardware.
What people also fail to mention is that the XSS isn't targeting the same resolutions as the high end consoles so it would need less RAM anyway. The PC comparisons are silly because all of those are made at the same resolutions with the only thing changing is the video card.

As some developers have said it will actually get easier for Series S when last gen is done and the next gen features it contains are standard.

Any developer can use the standard features of the XSS and XSX for that matter to maximize RAM usage. The detractors don't know about this or much else regarding the XSS or Xbox in general.

I'm saying it was misleading and l shouldn't have been said at all.

It's looking more and more like it has technical limitations which hinders its ability to offer the same experience otherwise games, especially first party, would be the same experience. No doubt about it.

I'm sure MS would want their games being the same just at a lower resolution. So to see one released with such a big next gen feature missing isn't a good look. Let's be honest here.
There was nothing misleading about what Jason Ronald or anything else MS said regarding the XSS. Unless you can point out the actual features the console is missing you are being dishonest. Again.

Moving goal posts. Just take your L, no one wins them all.
Typical response from a person who just lost an argument.
 
  • Like
  • LOL
Reactions: Hezekiah and Riky

Md Ray

Member
Nov 12, 2016
3,882
12,500
735
Right, and RTX IO requires an NVME to have any real effect, something which many PC's don't have. (your "test bed" system also had 16gb of ram and an NVME)
They also don't have the advantage of closed system. Series S is definitely not the lowest denominator, low end PC's are.
Right now, the lowest common denominator is neither PC nor Series S. It's Xbox One. After that, it's Series S.

Also, the days of "closed system" secret sauce advantage are long gone. The rise of low-level Vulkan and DX12 APIs in the PC space has closed the gap significantly between Xbox and a similarly specced PC.
 
  • Like
Reactions: CamHostage

Topher

Gold Member
Sep 25, 2020
3,313
10,022
630
Atlanta, Georgia, USA
The XSS will likely get storage upgrades as the price of flash memory comes down. The reason not to go for a $399 digital edition, is to not be stuck at that price for the whole generation. Since from what MS has said, the XSX is already losing money, and missing off the drive will probably only save $20. We also know that 5nm has only limited potential for cost reduction.

The price of expansion might come down eventually, but the history of proprietary storage in the past suggests it won't come as quickly as standard. So for me XSS needed to be closer to 1 TB for it to be worth it and since MS only has a single option for expansion and it costs $220 getting an XSX instead was really a no brainer. I can only speak for myself, obviously, but I suspect this a big reason why XSS has much more availability than XSX. 500 GB storage was a mistake, imo.

A $400 XSX would still be more expensive (for us and them) than a $300 XSS and MS was more interested in lowering the cost of entry into the Xbox ecosystem than selling the most consoles. Sony and Nintendo are the main companies focused on selling the most boxes. MS is putting xClould steaming for current generations games on the X1 clearly selling the most units isn't their goal isn't getting more Game pass subs. They have a slightly different goal so the comparisons don't exactly align.

I'm not going to argue MS motivations other than it is about money just like everyone else. I'm saying as a consumer that a $400 XSX DE is a much better value than $300 XSS. For a lot of folks I'm sure XSS is just fine. For others, like me, it doesn't make sense.
 
Last edited:

S0ULZB0URNE

Member
Jan 27, 2020
4,020
5,007
655
Again casual gamers aren't going to have huge libraries of games sitting on their hard drives. That is what an enthusiast does. You are clearly confused by looking at it from your own personal perspective. YOU would have a problem with the small storage space despite the device not being targeted at you. If a person really did need more space there are inexpensive options available. Not every product is for everyone.




There re more 120FPS games on XSS than consoles that cost more.
That's a damn lie! Casual gamers don't have time to delete and re-download they sure as heck don't want to be involved in moving games to a external storage solution that doesn't even run current gen games and don't get me started on the confusion CASUAL gamers are having with this gens storage solutions.

MS said xss would offer the same experience at a lower resolution.
Them not having 120 fps in ALL the games XSX does shows this not to be true.
 
  • Like
Reactions: dcmk7 and Md Ray

dcmk7

Member
Mar 25, 2020
1,351
4,264
385
There was nothing misleading about what Jason Ronald or anything else MS said regarding the XSS. Unless you can point out the actual features the console is missing

He said his words. It's captioned and it's certainly not faked.

The features that are missing in XSS version of games compared to the XSX counterpart is my main gripe. It shouldn't be happening if the console was designed for same experience. Especially from first party right?

Jason Ronald probably shouldn't have said what he said, maybe he could have explained it better, but I think his message that came out of his marketing video was misleading.

Omitting features and game modes don't seem to be very fair when the XSX version gets them.

you are being dishonest. Again.
That's weird. I haven't lied or been caught lying unlike you bud.


A moderator here literally had to intervene to say you were lying. So that's some revisionism.. But guess it's to be expected from a (quite literally) proven liar.
 
Last edited:
  • LOL
  • Like
Reactions: Riky and Md Ray

Hezekiah

Banned
Jul 16, 2020
1,750
2,314
365
Again casual gamers aren't going to have huge libraries of games sitting on their hard drives. That is what an enthusiast does. You are clearly confused by looking at it from your own personal perspective. YOU would have a problem with the small storage space despite the device not being targeted at you. If a person really did need more space there are inexpensive options available. Not every product is for everyone.

The sales of the Xbox in Europe (and Japan) are tied directly to brand popularity. PlayStation is an older and more popular brand and they didn't just come off a less than stellar previous generation. The performance of any Xbox there wouldn't be that impressive. Your mistaking brand popularity with options to casual gamers further shows your lack of understanding. If your point is that Xbox is less popular than PS then congrats I suppose. Still it has nothing to do with the fact that the XSS offers a superior value to any other current generation console.

The idea you think it has features 'people don't care about' again shows your lack of knowledge. No wonder you don't want to talk about Game pass or any other features. The 'gimped' console as you put it has more features than the $100 more expensive box. Sony made a decision that was best for SONY not for gamers. You think $10 game upgrades, and paid cloud saves is best for gamers? You think the convoluted mess with 'less than smart delivery' and the months it took for basic features to be added to the console was best for gamers? And you say I'M in my feelings? Even the out of context comments people made about developers complaining acknowledged that the XSS was a great value for gamers.

Your entire argument is based on feelings man. You are looking at this solely from your own personal experiences and your love for the PlayStation brand. You ignore any issues on that platform and try and invent and play up any perceived issues on another. I like and own a PlayStation myself but its because of that I can easily compare what the different platforms are offering and it's clear that the XSS is a better VALUE. You may personally like the PS games more and that is subjective but there is no denying that your dollar goes much further on an Xbox platform. The idea that you think price isn't important shows how detached you are from a world where many people can't afford gaming at all. In the end you failed to show why MS would drop the XSS before the end of the generation which is what this topic was about. The XSS will continue to get support and provide a terrific value option for gamers this entire generation and no amount of emotional ranting against MS will change that fact.
Once again you seem to be struggling with this point. You don't need to have a 'huge library' of games to fill up a mere 364GB of storage space, and constantly moving stuff back-and-forth is a pain. Surely this isnt difficult even for you to understand?

You're deliberately ignoring the point I made about the Xbox brand in Europe (in addition you don't live here and it shows in how lacking your knowledge of the market is). It's well known and popular - you can pretend otherwise but the number of Xbox console sold over the years says otherwise. Forget about Playstation that isn't particularly relevant here - the Series S just isn't as popular a console here hence its wide availability for ages now, and much less in demand than the Series X. This point is nothing to do with Xbox Vs Playstation, stop clutching at straws.

And here we are again talking about anything other than the console itself, attempting to turn everything into Xbox Vs Playstation, and generally acting sensitive about every little point that refutes the nonsense you're coming out with (1440p support, cloud saves, $10 game next-gen upgrades). This deflection just reinforce the fact that you know deep down what a weak argument you're making.

And you still talk about the 'value' of basic hardware, and how these are things I personally feel, while having the nerve to bring 1440p support into the conversation 😁. You seem to get so triggered that you can't seem to help yourself from turning away from the topic at hand to have unnecessary digs at Sony, and making a wider commentary about the Xbox brand and talking endlessly about GamePass.

The market has spoken, and continues to speak. You might not like it but the Series S (you know what this thread is actually about) is in much less demand on several continents. You can write as many paragraphs as you want, you can use as many diversionary tactics as you want. But the fact remains that it's much less desired than the other next-gen consoles.
 
  • Thoughtful
  • Fire
Reactions: Md Ray and dcmk7

FrankieSab

Member
Feb 5, 2021
92
112
220
The thread is from April.

And that's such a weird comparison.
It's from April but you still have people worrying about it.
Why weird? Developers can optimize for XSS as they do for any console, but they will obviously will not do it for the Steam Deck that has a GPU/CPU that is much slower than the Series S and that plays normal PC games. GPU: 4TF compared to 1.6 CPU: 8x Cores @ 3.6 GHz compared to 4x Cores @ 2.4–3.5 GHz.
 
  • Empathy
Reactions: Hezekiah

FireFly

Member
Aug 5, 2007
1,782
1,312
1,440
The price of expansion might come down eventually, but the history of proprietary storage in the past suggests it won't come as quickly as standard. So for me XSS needed to be closer to 1 TB for it to be worth it and since MS only has a single option for expansion and it costs $220 getting an XSX instead was really a no brainer.
That's what I'm talking about – Microsoft increasing the size of the internal drive.

"It's not all negative, though. The cost of NAND flash modules used for solid-state storage is still decreasing at a healthy rate - 23 per cent year-on-year according to the HotChips presentation - but the extent to which that will result in a cheaper console remains to be seen.

Even with the flash, you know, that's a tough one because consumer expectation will be that they're getting more storage. So it's not really a cost reduction, right? Traditionally, we've always modelled a fixed cost for the HDD and you just increase capacity for that fixed cost," explains Goossen. "

 
  • Like
Reactions: DarkMage619

dvdvideo

Member
Sep 15, 2005
2,918
3,102
1,690
So what you are suggesting is.... the PS4 isn't holding back the PS5? If this is the case then why would the XSS hold back anything?

I'm not suggesting anything, guerilla games is. And I agree, if they can make horizon without the ps4 holding it back, then it does imply xss would not hold back anything either.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DarkMage619

Topher

Gold Member
Sep 25, 2020
3,313
10,022
630
Atlanta, Georgia, USA
That's what I'm talking about – Microsoft increasing the size of the internal drive.

"It's not all negative, though. The cost of NAND flash modules used for solid-state storage is still decreasing at a healthy rate - 23 per cent year-on-year according to the HotChips presentation - but the extent to which that will result in a cheaper console remains to be seen.

Even with the flash, you know, that's a tough one because consumer expectation will be that they're getting more storage. So it's not really a cost reduction, right? Traditionally, we've always modelled a fixed cost for the HDD and you just increase capacity for that fixed cost," explains Goossen. "


Ok.....but I'm talking about the price of the expansion module rather than the console itself.
 

dvdvideo

Member
Sep 15, 2005
2,918
3,102
1,690
Right now, the lowest common denominator is neither PC nor Series S. It's Xbox One. After that, it's Series S.

Also, the days of "closed system" secret sauce advantage are long gone. The rise of low-level Vulkan and DX12 APIs in the PC space has closed the gap significantly between Xbox and a similarly specced PC.

Sure, it's xbox one now, then a crappy pc with a 4gb card, a super slow hard drive, and a weak cpu.

Even when xbox one support is dropped, that same weak pc will exist and likely be supported, well into this generation. Especially with the gpu shortage.
What is the baseline pc on Steam, last I heard it was a 1060. Pc game makers aren't suddenly going to turn thier back on a large part of the pc market.

Agreed the closed system advantage is weaker than prior, but it still exists in terms a sneaking out an extra 10-20% out of the hardware in some situations.
 

FireFly

Member
Aug 5, 2007
1,782
1,312
1,440
Ok.....but I'm talking about the price of the expansion module rather than the console itself.
I mean yes, if you can't survive with the amount of storage on the internal drive, even if it's eventually 1 TB on the XSS vs 2 TB on the XSX, then I think it will continue to make sense to get the XSX instead.
 
  • Like
Reactions: dcmk7

DarkMage619

Member
Jun 19, 2004
3,312
6,164
1,635
I'm not going to argue MS motivations other than it is about money just like everyone else. I'm saying as a consumer that a $400 XSX DE is a much better value than $300 XSS. For a lot of folks I'm sure XSS is just fine. For others, like me, it doesn't make sense.
Well MS makes 2 products. If the XSS doesn't have enough storage there is the XSX which has more internal storage and a more powerful GPU. There doesn't appear to be much need for them to have 3 different SKUs. They can meet the vast majority of gamers needs with what they offer right now.

Once again you seem to be struggling with this point. You don't need to have a 'huge library' of games to fill up a mere 364GB of storage space, and constantly moving stuff back-and-forth is a pain. Surely this isnt difficult even for you to understand?

You're deliberately ignoring the point I made about the Xbox brand in Europe (in addition you don't live here and it shows in how lacking your knowledge of the market is). It's well known and popular - you can pretend otherwise but the number of Xbox console sold over the years says otherwise. Forget about Playstation that isn't particularly relevant here - the Series S just isn't as popular a console here hence its wide availability for ages now, and much less in demand than the Series X. This point is nothing to do with Xbox Vs Playstation, stop clutching at straws.

And here we are again talking about anything other than the console itself, attempting to turn everything into Xbox Vs Playstation, and generally acting sensitive about every little point that refutes the nonsense you're coming out with (1440p support, cloud saves, $10 game next-gen upgrades). This deflection just reinforce the fact that you know deep down what a weak argument you're making.

And you still talk about the 'value' of basic hardware, and how these are things I personally feel, while having the nerve to bring 1440p support into the conversation 😁. You seem to get so triggered that you can't seem to help yourself from turning away from the topic at hand to have unnecessary digs at Sony, and making a wider commentary about the Xbox brand and talking endlessly about GamePass.

The market has spoken, and continues to speak. You might not like it but the Series S (you know what this thread is actually about) is in much less demand on several continents. You can write as many paragraphs as you want, you can use as many diversionary tactics as you want. But the fact remains that it's much less desired than the other next-gen consoles.
You seem to think every game that comes out is Call of Duty in size. You do realize there are a ton games that are only a few GB in size or even less. Casual gamers aren't running around complaining that don't have enough space to store their game libraries especially if they only play one or two franchises. It is a non issue and there is a cheap and easy to add more space that doesn't require the Seagate drive. There is enough storage to save Fortnite, Call of Duty, and Madden at the same time.

Why ignore the primary reason the XSS isn't popular outside of N. America? PS is more popular and well known brand. I don't have to live in Europe to know that. You ignore that the XSS is selling quite well in N. America so your point that the XSS isn't popular is simply wrong. The Xbox as a brand is simply not as popular outside of N. America and that has been true for two out of the three previous generations MS has made consoles. This is not a deflection. A deflection would be trying to form some sort of twisted logic that it isn't that the Xbox brand is less popular in Europe and had a less than stellar previous generation, its because MS made an affordable console is the REAL problem! Yeah that makes...no sense whatsoever. But I think deep down you know that.

You are the one who got triggered when it was brought to your attention the console you claim to be 'gimped' can do things your preferred box cannot. I actually can't understand why that would upset you anyway. Perhaps if you thought it all the way through you'd have realized the glasshouse you were standing in when you started tossing stones. The things I mentioned were all FACTS. I know they are FACT because I personally experienced them. You have just bought, whole cloth, the marketing behind the PS and feel that if Sony doesn't offer a feature it isn't worth having. LOL Smart delivery hur hur hur. It's a sad state to be in actually. Just because Sony doesn't offer Game pass or charges you for cloud saves doesn't' make Game pass or free cloud storage bad things. Sony charging you $10 extra to play their games doesn't make their games better either.

You comments about the market are pretty much total nonsense. This generation has just started and to declare a 'winner' at this point is totally premature. What determines success is also different. MS would be happy with 100+ million Game pass subs. Sony doesn't care about PS Now subs at all. You've written up just as much as I have and have yet to make one substantive point proving that MS was going to drop the XSS before the end of the generation, you know, the actual topic of this thread. You talk about diversionary tactics yet spend time talking about how powerful the PS5 is, how great the controller is, and how the European market matters the most. All you've shown is that you can hold a device that is cheaper and has more features to a higher standard that your preferred console. Congratulations. XSS still isn't going anywhere and MS was right to focus on markets bigger than the core gaming audience.

I'm not suggesting anything, guerilla games is. And I agree, if they can make horizon without the ps4 holding it back, then it does imply xss would not hold back anything either.
Friday Movie GIF


You moved the goal posts. All the verbal diarrhea you're spewing doesn't change the fact that you moved the goal posts. You lost. And we're done here, you have no further response worth anyone's time on this topic.
Lack of self awareness is not surprising. You level an asinine claim and run away. Works for me.
 

Md Ray

Member
Nov 12, 2016
3,882
12,500
735
Sure, it's xbox one now, then a crappy pc with a 4gb card, a super slow hard drive, and a weak cpu.
Stalker 2 system requirements say hi. The SSD and 8GB card are already in the minimum requirement.
Even when xbox one support is dropped, that same weak pc will exist and likely be supported, well into this generation. Especially with the gpu shortage.
What is the baseline pc on Steam, last I heard it was a 1060. Pc game makers aren't suddenly going to turn thier back on a large part of the pc market.
"well into this generation" only if you're delusional. As soon as next-gen games dropped on PS4/XB1, devs didn't a f** about pre-GCN TeraScale architecture on the PC side. Some of the early Forza games straight up didn't even boot unless you upgraded to GCN DX12 capable card and just like that the Xbox One became the lowest common denominator pretty quickly and so will Series S... Even more quickly than XB1 did, because the Series S GPU is on the same level as GTX 1060 minus DX12U features. GPU and memory-wise Series S has the weakest gen on gen upgrade compared to last-gen's X360 to XB1 upgrade, the memory upgrade from X360 to XB1 was gigantic!
 
Last edited:

Bernd Lauert

Member
Apr 15, 2018
5,725
17,324
705
That's a pretty wild claim.
No, it makes total sense.
Since RT in Doom Eternal isn't available on the Series S.. you're effectively saying that a MS first party studio isn't interested in spending time to make games have the same features as it's big bro?
No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that id didn't prioritize RT on the XSS.
But they felt it was worthwhile to spend time implementing RT for the PS5 version? That doesn't make much sense.
XSX and PS5 are fairly close in performance, so it likely wasn't a big deal.
From what Jason Ronald was saying, the system is designed to have the same experiences, just at a lower resolution.. he made it sound pretty simple.
And that's exactly the potential that the XSS delivers. It has the same features as the XSX.
It's far more likely there were just technical limitations that meant it just couldn't be implemented.
Feel free to explain why the XSS isn't capable of RT. We've seen several contrary examples.
I'm sure if it could have been implemented it would have. Since why omit it otherwise? Be a bizarre decision.
As I said, they prioritized resolution and framerate over RT in this case. Nothing bizarre about it.
 

Tutomos

Member
Jan 14, 2006
1,020
519
1,535
Been saying it's like Xbox SAD but people won't listen. Their reason is the pandemic people don't have money and they'll want to get a Series S because it's cheap :messenger_tears_of_joy:
 

Alan Wake

Member
Aug 28, 2020
493
334
290
The question is: will it even outsell the Series X? Spencer publicly said he expected it to, just like the One S outsold the One X. We haven't seen that high demand yet, and we're almost a year into the Xbox Series lifespan. Yes, shortages and so on, but I see the Series S being available in a lot of places still.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Hobbygaming

Hobbygaming

has been asked to post in 'Grounded' mode.
Sep 30, 2019
5,705
11,883
650
Inferior for who? The customers who want a budget console? Just because you don't want to spend $1500 for an RTX 3090 does not make the RTX 3060 inferior. The inferior device you are claiming has MORE 120fps titles and has more features than a console that costs even more. Does that make the more expensive device inferior? Missing RT isn't significant. Missing quick resume is. I don't see logic in what you are saying.
Games already load very fast on PS5 so quick resume isn't really a big deal but RT done right makes a big difference and that's where the XSS will come up short compared to the PS5 and XSX
 
  • Like
Reactions: dcmk7

dcmk7

Member
Mar 25, 2020
1,351
4,264
385
Feel free to explain why the XSS isn't capable of RT. We've seen several contrary examples.
You've provided zero proof for any of your claims.

But this sentence in particular is the weakest goalpost moving attempt I've seen for a while on here.

Care to quote where I said XSS isn't capable of RT at all..? If you're going to respond at least stick to the argument.. and not make one up when you recognise your argument is weak.

Everyone was told the system was designed to do everything the XSX could do at just lower resolution. So far that isn't the case.. otherwise we would be seeing at least MS first party studios sticking to a bold marketing line.

Which does suggest it's more of a technical limitation. Are you actually able to prove otherwise?
 
Last edited:
  • LOL
  • Fire
Reactions: Md Ray and Riky

Bernd Lauert

Member
Apr 15, 2018
5,725
17,324
705
The question is: will it even outsell the Series X? Spencer publicly said he expected it to, just like the One S outsold the One X. We haven't seen that high demand yet, and we're almost a year into the Xbox Series lifespan. Yes, shortages and so on, but I see the Series S being available in a lot of places still.
He expected the XSX to outsell the XSS this early in the generation. Only over the course of the entire generation, XSS sales will (maybe) outdo XSX.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Riky

Bernd Lauert

Member
Apr 15, 2018
5,725
17,324
705
You've provided zero proof for any of your claims.
The proof is in all the games on XSS that have RT.
But this sentence in particular is the weakest goalposting moving attempt I've seen for a while on here.

Care to quote where I said XSS isn't capable of RT at all..?
You said it's a "technical limitation". What else would you mean?
Everyone was told the system was designed to do everything the XSX could do at just lower resolution. So far that isn't the case.. otherwise we would be seeing at least MS first party studios sticking to a bold marketing line.
The XSS does everything the XSX can do, at a lower resolution. They have the same feature set, the one difference is the disc drive and the fact that XSX can push 4K while the XSS can't.
Which does suggest it's more of a technical limitation. Are you actually able to prove otherwise?
See above. Can you prove that the XSS is missing features from the XSX?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Riky

Topher

Gold Member
Sep 25, 2020
3,313
10,022
630
Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Well MS makes 2 products. If the XSS doesn't have enough storage there is the XSX which has more internal storage and a more powerful GPU. There doesn't appear to be much need for them to have 3 different SKUs. They can meet the vast majority of gamers needs with what they offer right now.

I disagree. Not with that space limitation on XSS and high priced expansion cost. More storage or a DE option would have been better, imo.
 
Last edited:

Mr.ODST

Member
May 30, 2020
1,163
2,156
500
UKAY
Owned a Series S and X since launch, the S is a great small machine that I use when I go away on business and it still looks pretty decent even on big TV's.

My Girlfriend bought a Series S so she could play smaller titles like Overcooked and Final Fantasy 13 with GamePass as she doesn't have the money to fork out on loads of games.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Lone Wolf and dcmk7

dcmk7

Member
Mar 25, 2020
1,351
4,264
385
What makes Doom Eternal's RT impossible to implement on XSS?

I've always suggested it's a technical limitation, not that it's 'impossible' on the XSS at all, all games are/run different and there any many different implementations of RT.

The thought behind my belief is within the games themselves. With each missing next gen feature.. for a console that was supposedly designed to be the same.

Your evidence on the contrary can be summed up in a word: hope. You don't have anything to suggest I'm wrong.
 
Last edited:

Billbofet

Member
Oct 21, 2018
173
269
335
Is it people that don't have an S the ones that shit on it the most?
I have read through this thread and people that actually have one seem pretty happy with it.

I have one in my basement theater room on a 120" screen and it has made me nothing but happy, and I plan to get an X eventually when the price drops, there is more content, and obviously inventory. I feel there hasn't even been enough next-gen games yet to declare this machine inferior on any level.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Riky

Bernd Lauert

Member
Apr 15, 2018
5,725
17,324
705
I've always suggested it's a technical limitation, not that it's impossible
What's the difference?
The thought behind my belief is within the games themselves. With each missing next gen feature.. for a console that was supposedly designed to be the same.
The XSS isn't missing any next gen features. It's capable of RT as proven by the games that have RT on it.
Your evidence on the contrary can be summed up in a word: hope. You don't have anything to suggest I'm wrong.
The evidence is in the games which deliver all the next-gen features like 120 hz and RT.
 

Riky

My little VRR pleasure pearl goes vrrrooommm.
May 11, 2013
4,168
9,019
990
England
He said his words. It's captioned and it's certainly not faked.

The features that are missing in XSS version of games compared to the XSX counterpart is my main gripe. It shouldn't be happening if the console was designed for same experience. Especially from first party right?

Jason Ronald probably shouldn't have said what he said, maybe he could have explained it better, but I think his message that came out of his marketing video was misleading.

In the very video you like to keep posting shots of Jason Ronald he goes on to explain what they say the "next gen experience" at a lower resolution is, he actually details it.

It consists of Quick Resume and the four aspects of the Velocity Architecture. It isn't Ray Tracing or any other graphical feature.

Maybe you should watch the whole thing and then you would understand what is being said better.
 
  • Love
Reactions: DarkMage619

dcmk7

Member
Mar 25, 2020
1,351
4,264
385
What's the difference?

The XSS isn't missing any next gen features. It's capable of RT as proven by the games that have RT on it.

The evidence is in the games which deliver all the next-gen features like 120 hz and RT.
Your argument would make sense if all games offered the same experience as XSX.

Reality is far from that - not even first party games are capable of delivering that experience.

It looks like you've inadvertently admitted that you don't have anything that disproves my point though. That's some progress.

No idea why you would think all games are the same either. Bit weird.
 
Last edited:

DJ Shalad

Member
Dec 10, 2018
3,854
9,595
710
Thankfully the SS is not the leading platform. Nothing to worry about.
GIF by Random Goat
 
Last edited:

Md Ray

Member
Nov 12, 2016
3,882
12,500
735
Feel free to explain why the XSS isn't capable of RT. We've seen several contrary examples.
Because of limited RAM. Some engines are more RAM-heavy than others. RT specifically is very RAM intensive and idTech 7 was already quite heavy on VRAM, add RT to that, and there you go.
As I said, they prioritized resolution and framerate over RT in this case. Nothing bizarre about it.
For DOOM, Billy Khan said in the interview they omitted RT from the S because of "differences in the hardware". And in fact, he was the one that was vocal about its RAM situation along with Mr. Axel (another engine programmer at IdSoft) before MS acquired Bethesda.



Remedy explicitly mentioned "hardware limitation" as the reason for omitting RT from the S for Control.
 
Last edited:

Bernd Lauert

Member
Apr 15, 2018
5,725
17,324
705
Because of limited RAM. Some engines are more RAM-heavy than others. RT specifically is very RAM intensive and idTech 7 was already quite heavy on VRAM, add RT to that, and there you go.
Yes, idTech is a RAM hog, it likely would've been a pain in the ass to enable RT on the XSS.
Billy Khan said in the interview they omitted RT from DOOM because of "differences in the hardware". Remedy explicitly mentioned "hardware limitation" as the reason for omitting RT from the S for Control.
All consoles have hardware limitations. That's why you don't see games running at native 4K, especially with raytracing. As I said, it's all a matter of optimization priorities. That's why different graphics modes are nice to have.
 

DarkMage619

Member
Jun 19, 2004
3,312
6,164
1,635
Games already load very fast on PS5 so quick resume isn't really a big deal but RT done right makes a big difference and that's where the XSS will come up short compared to the PS5 and XSX
Quick resume is one of the core features of the XSS showing it to offer the same next gen experience as the XSX. No one ever said RT would be on every game on the XSS. It isn't on every game on the XSX and PS5 either. As Bernd Lauert Bernd Lauert said:
All consoles have hardware limitations. That's why you don't see games running at native 4K, especially with raytracing. As I said, it's all a matter of optimization priorities. That's why different graphics modes are nice to have.

Because of limited RAM. Some engines are more RAM-heavy than others. RT specifically is very RAM intensive and idTech 7 was already quite heavy on VRAM, add RT to that, and there you go.

For DOOM, Billy Khan said in the interview they omitted RT from the S because of "differences in the hardware". And in fact, he was the one that was vocal about its RAM situation along with Mr. Axel (another engine programmer at IdSoft) before MS acquired Bethesda.



Remedy explicitly mentioned "hardware limitation" as the reason for omitting RT from the S for Control.
You have any quotes from someone actually using the full feature set of the XSS? Preferably a comment made within the last few months. Why simply lower the resolution over SFS? How much memory is needed to run games at 1080p? Maybe MS should assist the devs complaining by showing them how to implement the memory saving features of the device.
 
  • Like
  • LOL
Reactions: Riky and dcmk7

Haggard

Member
Nov 25, 2020
801
1,513
460
Tons of PC games make it to consoles (every Bethesda game ever made? Every xbox home studio game pretty much?)
riiight, bethesda games haven`t been feature complete on consoles since the dawn of HD and Microsoft produces for Windows and forgets about their own console ecosystem. :D


My point on the asset creation is still valid, they aren't creating assets for low res games and then trying to use them at higher resolutions, they are creating assets for high res games and then using downscaled versions for the less powerful machines. This has always been the case, they are creating for the more powerful platform in mind, it just has to be done that way.
And now you`re acting as if assets are the end all to game design....unfortunately asset creation and refinement are pretty far along the development chain and 10 minutes ago you literally didn`t even know there was something like asset scaling, so who are you trying to tell you`d even remotely understand what you`re talking about?
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Md Ray