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Bungie will ban players who play Destiny 2 on Steam Deck through SteamOS or Proton

Shame for those that enjoy the game. The Deck would be a good way to play something like Destiny, Bungie fucked this game over the last few years anyway so not a huge loss.
 

yurinka

Member
Not a Steamdeck or Linux fanboy but that's just lame.
If people pay for your games who cares what they do with it? Maybe I'm just getting old.
Sony come get ya boy. He trippin'
Jimbo Beats Bungo.

Digital Deluxe
Bungie are hypocrites say they want to put game on all platform and that they don't believe in exclusive yet does this lol what a joke
PSVita 2 in da worx bro

Sony seems perfectly fine with players using their (single player) PC games on SteamDeck/SteamOS, in fact they allowed to use some of them to promote it. Bungie also stated they don't want exclusivities and Sony is ok with Bungie selling their games everywhere. Considering they also will have the game running on Switch and mobile via streaming, and that they are ok with playing the game on SteamDeck via Windows, the exclusivity thing it's out of the question.

The issue doesn't seem to be exclusivity or SteamDeck or Proton (they say it's ok to run it on Windows), seem to be related to SteamOS or maybe Linux. So I think there are different possibilities of why they are doing this:
  • Their anti-cheat system maybe still isn't adapted/ported to SteamOS/Linux, so they can't allow players to play there until it's ported.
  • Their anti-cheat system works in SteamOS/Linux, but SteamOS/Linux has something else that allows to bypass it and they can't do anything to avoid it.
  • It isn't related to cheating, but instead they are still testing the SteamDeck/SteamOS/Proton version of the game and dealing with some stuff like adapting some controls or tweaking some optimal configurations etc and don't want players to use it until it's ready/approved by both Valve and Bungie.
I think it's related to cheating: it's the only reason of why you'd ban a consumer, to modify the game directly or using tools to cheat or skip the anticheat system.

In a multitplayer focused game to use cheats means to ruin the experience for other players, meaning that they may leave the game and stop buying DLC/IAPs/expansions, or create a bad reputation to the game that would scare potential new players who may skip the game if they know it's full of cheaters. So cheating potentially affects negatively their business, so this is why companies have anti cheat systems and ban cheaters.
 
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Kupfer

Member
This is just shameful and lame.
Chosing the path of threatening people with bans over the path of effort and work to make the game playable for everybody.

:lollipop_poop:
 
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Filben

Member
What else to expect from a developer who removes paid content... excuse me, puts into the """vault""".

Time after time again they prove to be fucking with the players. First, the XP bar issue when the game came out, then the ever decreasing XP you get the longer you play. That should have been a red flag for like 90% of the players. Then said removal of content and now this?

How many times needs a dev or publisher to fuck you over until people realise they should stop giving these greedy motherfuckers their money... the only thing they're really interested in.
 
Sony seems perfectly fine with players using their (single player) PC games on SteamDeck/SteamOS, in fact they allowed to use some of them to promote it. Bungie also stated they don't want exclusivities and Sony is ok with Bungie selling their games everywhere. Considering they also will have the game running on Switch and mobile via streaming, and that they are ok with playing the game on SteamDeck via Windows, the exclusivity thing it's out of the question.

The issue doesn't seem to be exclusivity or SteamDeck or Proton (they say it's ok to run it on Windows), seem to be related to SteamOS or maybe Linux. So I think there are different possibilities of why they are doing this:
  • Their anti-cheat system maybe still isn't adapted/ported to SteamOS/Linux, so they can't allow players to play there until it's ported.
  • Their anti-cheat system works in SteamOS/Linux, but SteamOS/Linux has something else that allows to bypass it and they can't do anything to avoid it.
  • It isn't related to cheating, but instead they are still testing the SteamDeck/SteamOS/Proton version of the game and dealing with some stuff like adapting some controls or tweaking some optimal configurations etc and don't want players to use it until it's ready/approved by both Valve and Bungie.
I think it's related to cheating: it's the only reason of why you'd ban a consumer, to modify the game directly or using tools to cheat or skip the anticheat system.

In a multitplayer focused game to use cheats means to ruin the experience for other players, meaning that they may leave the game and stop buying DLC/IAPs/expansions, or create a bad reputation to the game that would scare potential new players who may skip the game if they know it's full of cheaters. So cheating potentially affects negatively their business, so this is why companies have anti cheat systems and ban cheaters.
You've got the nail on the head. I am pretty sure that the reason why is down to the Anti-Cheat system - is it BattleEye?

Bungie are so not anti system - I imagine once this is sorted, all will be good again and they'll allow it.
 

STARSBarry

Gold Member
Sorry can you please use the correct Bungie approved terminology for this, thanks.

All Destiny 2 players who try to bypass Destiny's 2 incompatibility with Steamdeck will have their access to Destiny 2 "Vaulted".
 
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zaanan

Banned
Secondly, the idea that the consumer can do anything they want with something they buy is equally ridiculous.
lucious lyon wtf GIF
 

LiquidMetal14

hide your water-based mammals
I'm not sure how to feel about this because I'm sure most people that have even posted here aren't even affected. I'm getting a steam deck and can't really give you an opinion on that yet.

These companies seem to take different measures in order to keep their games safe and cheat free but who knows at this point. I'm sure it's not their goal to keep players on any device that can run the game from playing.
 

TheSHEEEP

Gold Member
  • Their anti-cheat system maybe still isn't adapted/ported to SteamOS/Linux, so they can't allow players to play there until it's ported.
  • Their anti-cheat system works in SteamOS/Linux, but SteamOS/Linux has something else that allows to bypass it and they can't do anything to avoid it.
  • It isn't related to cheating, but instead they are still testing the SteamDeck/SteamOS/Proton version of the game and dealing with some stuff like adapting some controls or tweaking some optimal configurations etc and don't want players to use it until it's ready/approved by both Valve and Bungie.
The first two don't really make much sense.
1) Their anti cheat system does support Linux (see here), they simply haven't enabled it
2) All anti-cheat systems can be bypassed, on every platform. There is no exception. Singling out Linux for this is absurd.

The only solution to money/reward/effect/etc. cheating in online games is having the logic be executed on the server and not the client (the client just "simulates" execution for a better flow, done like that in the majority of online games). The security for this has to be in the backend, not the frontend (the game client).
Other cheats that affect visuals/only the client and not other players directly, such as wallhacks, etc. simply cannot be prevented - the data is on the device and so anything with access to the data (such as the user) can inspect, interpret and derive information from it. You can try to make it harder (and that is what anti-cheat does), but eventually it is a battle that cannot be won by any means except cloud gaming.

If you own the hardware a game is running on, you can cheat. That's what it comes down to in the end.

As someone who's been gaming pretty much exclusively on Linux for the past 5 years or so (and using it as a development platform for longer than that), I can say with confidence that the vast majority of titles not supporting Linux is due to the lack of knowledge their devs have about Linux. Which in turn is due to these odd misconceptions that Windows somehow makes it harder to cheat (false) or Linux would be inherently insecure (the very opposite is actually true) or it would be harder to develop for Linux (only true if you're trying to support every single Linux distro, which nobody even expects you to do).

With devs not knowing Linux well and a user share that's at about 2% or so, those misconceptions are disappearing only very slowly.
But they are disappearing - a few years ago, none of the anti-cheat systems supported Linux. Now most do - it's just that devs haven't caught up to that yet (due to above reasons).
 

SoggyBiscuit

Gold Member
Seems odd that Bungie would go as far as straight up banning people for wanting to play Destiny on portable PC hardware. Sure the Proton compatibility layer might mean that cheats can be used? I wouldn't know, seems exceedingly harsh though.

Guess those who want portable Destiny just have to do a Windows install on Deck instead?
 

Hendrick's

Member
Why does cheating even matter in Destiny? It's not really competitive anyway. This smells more like a DRM thing.
 

Allandor

Member
The first two don't really make much sense.
1) Their anti cheat system does support Linux (see here), they simply haven't enabled it
2) All anti-cheat systems can be bypassed, on every platform. There is no exception. Singling out Linux for this is absurd.
...
Anti-cheat programs also check for signed DLLs. As proton has not MS certificates to sign their DLLs, it is not possible for the anti-cheat-software to check this. Signed DLLs are there to prohibit the execution of code that was not part of the program.
E.g. in older games you could use a dummy D3Dsound.dll (or any other directx DLL) to get into a game and cheat there. On the other hand you could use the DLL e.g. to get OpenAL working (oder Glide games with a glide-wrapper (glide....dll)).
The problem they might have is that they don't have a real MMO-game that is played on servers. The Servers are just their to check and save a few things but nothing more. The instances of the game still runs on the computer/console. E.g. that is why a game like WoW has no problem with proton, because the client is just there to send the inputs, while here the servers are just their to save the outcome of the calculations made on the client side. Therefor you don't need that much server capacity but you might get a cheating problem if you don't check what is really executed on the clients.
 

Bojanglez

The Amiga Brotherhood
This on the surface is a strange decision, if enabling BattlEye is as simple as emailing Valve to have it enabled on their game. I expect it is just that they are ignorant and scared, and to be fair with such a low % currently running games on Linux/Proton there is little incentive to care. Hopefully the success of the Steam Deck will help change this over time.

I'd love it if the actual reason was:
  • Sony stepped in because they want it as a PS Vita 2 exclusive (as some have joked)
  • They are porting their native Linux version used for Stadia
But I highly doubt it is for either reason.
 

Roxkis_ii

Gold Member
This on the surface is a strange decision, if enabling BattlEye is as simple as emailing Valve to have it enabled on their game. I expect it is just that they are ignorant and scared, and to be fair with such a low % currently running games on Linux/Proton there is little incentive to care. Hopefully the success of the Steam Deck will help change this over time.

I'd love it if the actual reason was:
  • Sony stepped in because they want it as a PS Vita 2 exclusive (as some have joked)
  • They are porting their native Linux version used for Stadia
But I highly doubt it is for either reason.

They probably just don't want to support Linux.

I forgot the video I was watching, but I recall one dev pull Linux support because even through Linux was like 10% of the people who bought the game, they made up 90% of the support issues.

Linux infinite configurations doesn't work in its favor, and most devs probably don't find the fruit worth the squeeze.

Edit: found the actual numbers:
 
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TheSHEEEP

Gold Member
Anti-cheat programs also check for signed DLLs. As proton has not MS certificates to sign their DLLs, it is not possible for the anti-cheat-software to check this. Signed DLLs are there to prohibit the execution of code that was not part of the program.
Not sure what you are aiming at here.
1.) Proton just uses the game's Windows files - including DLLs. You can check DLLs the same way you can on Windows. You could probably create a customized Proton version that is made to report a wrong certificate as valid, but if you went to such extreme lengths and got the skill to pull that off, you'd not have any trouble to cheat in other ways on any other platform.
2.) You can sign executables and binaries such as .so (Linux' name for .dll) on Linux (see e.g. sigstore). It's just not usually done because it doesn't really solve any problem. It's honestly just something that tends to make the suits happy without providing actual utility.
3.) There are other ways to execute code that was not part of the program than DLL injection.

I forgot the video I was watching, but I recall one dev pull Linux support because even through Linux was like 10% of the people who bought the game, they made up 90% of the support issues.
That's only half the story, though.
Linux users are generally much more tech affine and on average just more useful as test users as they like to tinker a lot anyway - so they are indeed RADICALLY more likely to report bugs. I've been working on cross-platform projects for years now and this just seems to be a universal truth.
The bugs they report, though, are only sometimes Linux-specific. The majority actually affect everyone and so the increased reports from the Linux crowd ends up being extremely beneficial.


Linux infinite configurations doesn't work in its favor, and most devs probably don't find the fruit worth the squeeze.
That's the misconception. You only need to support one or two distributions (the main ones) - the vast majority of distros are derived from those anyway, I'd say about 90% of users are on some derivate of either Debian/Ubuntu or Arch (SteamOS is based on Arch, btw).
In 99% of cases, software that works on one distro works on another. The differences between distros for the most part have no impact on running games. E.g. GPU drivers are the same on all of them (just their method of installation might vary).
 
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01011001

Member
enough of the rational common sense talk now. we're meant to be outraged don't ya know!

to be fair, they worded it really terribly.

what is going on here is that their anti cheat simply doesn't work on Linux, so in order to play on Linux you would need to actively circumvent their anti cheat system, which will on any system result in a ban.

had they worded it like this it wouldn't be dramatised this much I think. but most people of course don't take time to think about this for even 2 seconds either, which would also result in less aggressive reaction.
 

Allandor

Member
Not sure what you are aiming at here.
1.) Proton just uses the game's Windows files - including DLLs. You can check DLLs the same way you can on Windows. You could probably create a customized Proton version that is made to report a wrong certificate as valid, but if you went to such extreme lengths and got the skill to pull that off, you'd not have any trouble to cheat in other ways on any other platform.
2.) You can sign executables and binaries such as .so (Linux' name for .dll) on Linux (see e.g. sigstore). It's just not usually done because it doesn't really solve any problem. It's honestly just something that tends to make the suits happy without providing actual utility.
3.) There are other ways to execute code that was not part of the program than DLL injection.
1) Sure, but the games typically also use DLLs inside of the Windows Folders (e.g. Directx Installs). Games normally don't deliver everything they need to run.
2) Yes, you can, but not with a certificate of Microsoft (e.g. the Directx DLLs or WHQL Drivers)
3) yes, that's right, but those are even more complicated. DLL injections are the easiest way. Also you can protect your process in windows so no other application should alter it's memory (with more or less success)

I really can't tell you what they all check in their anti-cheat measures, but that might just be one part of the reason why they can't support their game on Linux via an "emulator" (yes I know it is not an emulator, but just to get simple)

They can fix this by making Destiny 2 a real MMO with running servers in background where you connect to and play on (so the client just tells the server where you are and what you press), but that would be really expensive for the company, so they don't want it. Currently it is like trying to prevent cheating in open battle.net mode of the good old Diablo 2 through an external control process.
 

treemk

Member
I don't understand this, could have done 100% better just by wording this a different way.

"We currently do not support steam deck, we might explore this in the future. Please do not attempt to run Destiny 2 on Linux, it will circumvent our anti cheat and cause a ban."
 

TheSHEEEP

Gold Member
to be fair, they worded it really terribly.

what is going on here is that their anti cheat simply doesn't work on Linux, so in order to play on Linux you would need to actively circumvent their anti cheat system, which will on any system result in a ban.

had they worded it like this it wouldn't be dramatised this much I think. but most people of course don't take time to think about this for even 2 seconds either, which would also result in less aggressive reaction.
Except that their anti cheat system DOES work on Linux - BattlEye. And that works the same on Windows as it does on Linux.
They just need to contact BattlEye to "set the flag", so to speak. Others have done it, so...

But they obviously haven't, so I assume there's more to the story than just that.
Bit of a mystery.
 

treemk

Member
Except that their anti cheat system DOES work on Linux - BattlEye. And that works the same on Windows as it does on Linux.
They just need to contact BattlEye to "set the flag", so to speak. Others have done it, so...

But they obviously haven't, so I assume there's more to the story than just that.
Bit of a mystery.
Can work and does work are not the same thing
 
Man all yall complaining sound like a bunch of REEE drama queens. So Bungie is gonna ban players from playing their multiplatform game on a platform that can run it just fine because they're being spiteful? Like use some common sense.
 

Shubh_C63

Member
I was watching my clan raid tonight and it only kind of made sense to me why Bungie by design would not want Destiny on Steamdeck.

Everything you do in game is just preparing you for raids which is without the doubt THE content, the thing that actually retains players. Can you imagine checking all small symbols or notice your buffs in that screen while coordinating. The mid-tier activities would be fine on deck but not raids, and Bungie really can't release a version without raids on deck either, imagine the PR disaster.

Any bad experience of their primo content would make people go away never to return. Adoption wise it kind of made sense to me.
Ofcourse I still would want atleast an option to try.
 

Larxia

Member
I was watching my clan raid tonight and it only kind of made sense to me why Bungie by design would not want Destiny on Steamdeck.

Everything you do in game is just preparing you for raids which is without the doubt THE content, the thing that actually retains players. Can you imagine checking all small symbols or notice your buffs in that screen while coordinating. The mid-tier activities would be fine on deck but not raids, and Bungie really can't release a version without raids on deck either, imagine the PR disaster.

Any bad experience of their primo content would make people go away never to return. Adoption wise it kind of made sense to me.
Ofcourse I still would want atleast an option to try.
Destiny 1 was running below 720p on ps3/360, "1024x624" exactly, so if everything was still readable and playable there, it should be fine on Steam Deck's 1280x800 screen I assume.
 
Seems they might be fine if Steam Deck players play it through Windows but who's gonna try?
I wouldn't even consider buying a Steam Deck if I couldn't install Windows in it.

SteamOS might be great and all, but it won't support Gamepass, EGS games, Origin, etc. Plus the performance on windows might be quite a bit better on many titles where the Proton overhead might be too high.
 

01011001

Member
I wouldn't even consider buying a Steam Deck if I couldn't install Windows in it.

SteamOS might be great and all, but it won't support Gamepass, EGS games, Origin, etc. Plus the performance on windows might be quite a bit better on many titles where the Proton overhead might be too high.

yeah, Windows on that thing will be the way to go. you don't lose anything of note but gain a shitload of stuff.

Steam will work just as it does on Steam OS, but you wont need Proton and you'll have way easier time installing basically anything that isn't built into Steam OS
 

KungFucius

Member
To get back on point instead of writing to me, like I'm a kid.. - Proton is only a layer for Linux to be able to run Windows apps. It's not like there's a lot to do besides that. Even if someone made cheats for it, it would be recognized as usual "Windows" cheats.

Proton supports CS:GO, natively - and that's got some heavy cheaters on Windows.

Bungie is just being stupid as usual.
Regardless of how little you think it involves, it is still a completely different platform and will cost money to develop security for and test. How many Steam Decks have sold? Of those, how many play Destiny 2? What percentage of total Destiny players does that represent? Why should the other players be subjected to a potential security risk?

You are childishly demanding that a company should have embarked on a security development effort for a new platform months ago to be ready instead of making their own business decisions and seeing if there is any data showing a demand for Steam Deck compatibility. Bungie is not doing something bad, they just have yet to see a need to devote a small team to develop a secure way to play the game and are opting to protect their paying customers.
 
No justification here, anyone claiming it's to prevent cheaters are just speculating, there is no proof that steamdeck would assist in cheating.

Bungie just being dicks, glad I don't like any of their games.
 

8BiTw0LF

Gold Member
You are childishly demanding that a company should have embarked on a security development effort for a new platform
Linux ain't new lol.. Wine/Proton ain't new either.

How many Steam Decks have sold? Of those, how many play Destiny 2? What percentage of total Destiny players does that represent?
If they shouldn't care for making it "natively" supported cause the percentage of players are too small - why bother banning those "insignificant" players then?

Your post contradicts itself mate.
 
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