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Article: CLOUD GAMING CANNOT BE ALLOWED TO REPLACE LOCAL GAMING!!!

Fat Frog

I advertise for Google Stadia
Game streaming is a joke. Nice to see some are starting to wake up and realize it.
I thing this is the opposite situation.
Usual old school gaffers yelling at cloud since the beginning and cloud gaming having more and more adopters. (on Era, xcloud, the lowest cloud tech received an overall "ok" rank in terms of latency... imagine with casual gamers or with great tech like GFN on RTX3080 in european big cities)
 

Fat Frog

I advertise for Google Stadia
Like, the sheer amount of backlash that hit MS when they tried to kill the used games market for Xbone made their heads spin, but for some reason it's not happening with cloud gaming.
The anti cloud mobs actions are working on Stadia :
- "Hey, gamers you'll lose all your games with Stadia"
- " Google will steal your money. Look at killed by google".
- " Stadia is dead, don't buy games " since 2019.

Stadia is struggling because of Phil Harrison's insane disconnected launch policy and because of gamers afraid of cloud, afraid of loosing local gaming in 20 years. (that won't happen).

Nonetheless, it doesn't work with GFN, Xcloud.(it doesn't replace your local/digital library)


I don't see constructive criticism against Stadia as a bad thing (it will push the Stadia team to adapt to their fans and they're currently listening to them on Twitter, for instance). But some theoritical accusations are kinda weird to me. (dismissing the pros and focusing on the potential cons)
 
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Fat Frog

I advertise for Google Stadia
Cloud gaming feels like the natural step towards deleting physical games altogether. It will be used as an excuse to publish games either digital downloadable or streaming options only, as opposed to digital or physical like we have today.
Physical games won't disappear:

Father: - " Hey son, here's your christmas present : Download key 6gjhf68437kvt95h88 for Crash Team Racing Xcloud"
- Son: "??? "
- Mother: "Here's your Nintend... "
- Son:

That's not gonna happen. Cloud will never replace physical hardware or games. Not that Nintendo has special powers but in parent's minds, Nintendo = kids = Christmas gifts.

Cloud will probably have huge market shares but physical won't disappear.
 
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Mephisto40

Member
I would have thought it was obvious at this point is Microsoft could find any way of not having to produce consoles and just sell their games as a service, they would have done it by now, same goes for sony

Like it or not, this is the way console gaming is going, it makes absalutley no sense for Sony and Microsoft to continue to pump physical consoles out at a loss to themselves constantly

Eventually you'll just buy a TV with a gamepass app like netflix, that will be your xbox
 

Fat Frog

I advertise for Google Stadia
You know, I used to think things would always be the same especially back in the day when OnLive came out and every single gamer I knew were laughing our asses off at what a ridiculously terrible product it was and how we never thought streaming games would ever be a success. But here we are and things have definitely changed, Xbox Series S and the PS5 digital-only consoles are very popular, I bet next-gen consoles will focus heavily on digital+streaming and maybe won't even release a version with a disc drive.
You know, i don't have the old school gamer mindset either. I never laughed at Onlive, for instance. It wasn't for me (i like a la carte gaming) but i saw a potential for the decades to come.
Digital/Streaming next gen consoles only ? Yeah, they will be more popular but console makers will keep disc premium versions for the strong conservative games. (like someone said earlier they're solid cash machines > Look at Dark Souls games, Persona 5R, it's for gaming enthusiasts and this market is growing as well in value, not market share)
 
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reksveks

Member
Cloud gaming feels like the natural step towards deleting physical games altogether. It will be used as an excuse to publish games either digital downloadable or streaming options only, as opposed to digital or physical like we have today.
My point is that the rise of digital game sales and the associated increases in margins is the driving force behind the reduction of physical game releases, not cloud gaming.

Cloud gaming could be a factor for streaming only games but that's a different conversation to physical game releases.
 

Philfrag

Member
Once capable internet infrastructure is accessible to everyone on a global scale, cloud gaming will absolutely replace hardware. Things like input lag is very much an issue now as you can't get consistent performance across a whole platform. But once this is fixed on a technological level and its cheap for the general consumer I think consoles are going away. I think this is a long way off though as most world governments aren't interested in giving the best internet to their constituents that current day technology can provide. It's most likely a cost issue. I think if it can work on a global scale, it will probably be for the best. Too much plastic consumer junk in the world. People might not like the centralised aspect of it, but we're already living that reality with games these days having to access a server somewhere anyway.
 

Hezekiah

Banned
Lol, late to the party today. Accept it already. It is and will be the future. It has so many benefits outside of modding and preservation issues. It brings gaming to millions in the palms of their hands with a cheaper entry. Also, ownership of licenses, GFN fixes this by letting you buy through your favorite storefront. I have finished at least 9 Games this year thanks to 3080 Tier alone due to my 6-8 ms Fibre and a Data Center being close. About to finish God of War in a day or 2.
£180 a year. Now add that up over a generation for what is an inferior experience where you don't own the hardware.
 

Fat Frog

I advertise for Google Stadia
In Japan, they like discreet stuffs, i'm not sure the recent piece of hardware will help the cause of local gaming:


Even in the west, i'm not sure your wife will appreciate ashtray and nespresso machine near the TV 😁
 
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Topher

Gold Member
I thing this is the opposite situation.
Usual old school gaffers yelling at cloud since the beginning and cloud gaming having more and more adopters. (on Era, xcloud, the lowest cloud tech received an overall "ok" rank in terms of latency... imagine with casual gamers or with great tech like GFN on RTX3080 in european big cities)

Usual old school gaffers yelling at cloud? Come on, dude. Remember, the argument being pushed by a lot of folks is that local gaming will be replaced by cloud whether anyone likes it or not. So no, I don't think it is fair to characterize those who are pushing back against that proposition is afraid of new tech. Plenty of us are simply saying the technologies will coexist.
 

Fat Frog

I advertise for Google Stadia
Usual old school gaffers yelling at cloud? Come on, dude. Remember, the argument being pushed by a lot of folks is that local gaming will be replaced by cloud whether anyone likes it or not. So no, I don't think it is fair to characterize those who are pushing back against that proposition is afraid of new tech. Plenty of us are simply saying the technologies will coexist.
I confirm most gamers on gaf donnt care about cloud or are hostile. I'm not playing the victim at all, for instance, there are also anti cloud on era but it's more balanced, the Stadia OT is kinda popular (500K views) and people are mostly curious. (my cloud OT is a hard failure lol)

Recent Stadia timed click to play demos
GAF > "No thanks"
Era > "Hey, not bad !"
 
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Topher

Gold Member
I confirm most gamers on gaf donnt care about cloud or are hostile. I'm not playing the victim at all, for instance, there are also anti cloud on era but it's more balanced, the Stadia OT is kinda popular (500K views) and people are mostly curious. (my cloud OT is a gard failure lol)

Recent Stadia timed click to play demos
GAF > "No thanks"
Era > "Hey, not bad !"

But that is not confirming anything other than your own biased personal perception. If the topic on Era that was being discussed was about cloud replacing local gaming then the tone would be much different an OT which is essentially cloud advocacy. As it is, I looked at the OT on era and you've got a handful of participants with most of the posts coming from "alucardx23" and "giant enemy crab".
 
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Fat Frog

I advertise for Google Stadia
But that is not confirming anything other than your own biased personal perception. If the topic on Era that was being discussed was about cloud replacing local gaming then the tone would be much different an OT which is essentially cloud advocacy. As it is, I looked at the OT on era and you've got a handful of participants with most of the posts coming from "alucardx23" and "giant enemy crab".


https://www.neogaf.com/threads/stadia.1580819/

See... The 8 first comments are sarcastic (except this mother fucker of Fat Frog 🤡) and then only 1 good experience...

Gaf is hostile. Period
 

Rea

Member
I rather have portable console like switch or steam deck. I really hate cloud gaming, hope it dies very soon.
 

Fat Frog

I advertise for Google Stadia
You created a "Stadia vs Consoles" thread, dude. What were you expecting?
Weak argument. It's a parody thread and there was no "Stadia vs console" bait, the thread is called "Stadia" which means the anti cloud mobs jumped in anyway as a pavlovian reflex.
 
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Topher

Gold Member
Weak argument. It's a parody thread and there was no "Stadia vs console" bait, the thread is called "Stadia" which means the anti cloud mobs jumped in anyway as a pavlovian reflex.

Ok, it is a "parody thread". Again.....what were you expecting? Serious discussion on Stadia? If you want to talk about a weak argument then start there.
 

Fat Frog

I advertise for Google Stadia
Ok, it is a "parody thread". Again.....what were you expecting? Serious discussion on Stadia? If you want to talk about a weak argument then start there.
https://www.neogaf.com/threads/26-c...count-creation-no-download-on-stadia.1637939/
See...
Even on neutral threads, it's sarcasm or polite refusal, i know what i'm talking about and i'm not complaining, in fact, i like challenging mobs 🥳💩😜.

But clearly, GAF community is hostile, sarcastic (irony is preferred to trash talking since Stadia's failure) or not interested.
The cloud enthusiast are a minority, no problem with that, but don't tell me it's my bias...
 

geary

Member
Ownership doesnt help with anything if the developer wont be pushing updates 10 years from now, or if you dont have access to them. Most of the games need day 1 patch. In which way ownership helps you? Playing a broken game?
 

Topher

Gold Member
https://www.neogaf.com/threads/26-c...count-creation-no-download-on-stadia.1637939/
See...
Even on neutral threads, it's sarcasm or polite refusal, i know what i'm talking about and i'm not complaining, in fact, i like challenging mobs 🥳💩😜.

But clearly, GAF community is hostile, sarcastic (irony is preferred to trash talking since Stadia's failure) or not interested.
The cloud enthusiast are a minority, no problem with that, but don't tell me it's my bias...

No, your personal bias is this perception that gamers are hostile to Stadia on GAF and open minded everywhere else. Like that nonsense about how Era is more receptive. Yeah....about that.
 

Fat Frog

I advertise for Google Stadia
No, your personal bias is this perception that gamers are hostile to Stadia on GAF and open minded everywhere else. Like that nonsense about how Era is more receptive. Yeah....about that.
Yeah, like i said it shows the proportion of anti clouds is less important:
https://www.resetera.com/threads/xcloud-vs-ps-now-vs-stadia-vs-luna-vs-gfn.456757/
It's not only Donnie,Crab,Alucard who are the 500K views on Era. A simple poll receiced 200 votes for Stadia, many praises... On my weekly gaf cloud thread, only 10 votes for Stadia.


Era is not better than GAF, but a mix of progressism, Nintendo fanboys (more open to Stadia since it gives them easy access to AAA for cheap) and other reasons could explain the curiousity for cloud.I don't know, i just see, there is more enthusiasm there... Not judging.
 
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Topher

Gold Member
Yeah, like i said it shows the proportion of anti clouds is less important:
https://www.resetera.com/threads/xcloud-vs-ps-now-vs-stadia-vs-luna-vs-gfn.456757/
It's not only Donnie,Crab,Alucard who feed the 500K views on Era. A simple poll receiced 200 votes for Stadia, many praises... On my weekly cloud thread, only 10 votes for Stadia.


Era is not better than GAF, but a mix of progressism, Nintendo fanboys (more open to Stadia since it gives them easy access to AAA for cheap) and other reasons could explain the curiousity for cloud.I don't know, i just see, there is more enthusiasm there... Not judging.

Ok, but Era also has a lot more members so counts are never going to line up. Either way, nothing wrong with you having your own personal perception. I'll leave it at that.
 
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Fat Frog

I advertise for Google Stadia
Ok, but Era also has a lot more members so counts are never going to line up. Either way, nothing wrong with you having your own personal perception. I'll leave it at that.
I'm talking about proportions, not sheer numbers.
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
For many people, ‘a few hundred bucks’ is a big deal.
I don’t think anyone has said people who can’t spend money on hardware should be the main target audience for traditional game sales. They’ll be targeted for revenue via monthly subscriptions.

It’s also ironic to see so much scaremongering about ‘losing access to games’ when the main benefits of cloud gaming is to have your games accessible to you anywhere you are. As it stands, GAF console players lose access to their games as soon as they step outside their houses (unless you’ve got a Switch).

We are talking about permanent access to a game. Not over an 8-hour period.
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
I would have thought it was obvious at this point is Microsoft could find any way of not having to produce consoles and just sell their games as a service, they would have done it by now, same goes for sony

Like it or not, this is the way console gaming is going, it makes absalutley no sense for Sony and Microsoft to continue to pump physical consoles out at a loss to themselves constantly

Eventually you'll just buy a TV with a gamepass app like netflix, that will be your xbox

Why do you believe that Sony doesn't make a profit on each PS5 sold?
 

Mephisto40

Member
Why do you believe that Sony doesn't make a profit on each PS5 sold?
What makes you believe that they do?

It was we'll documented for the past few gens that Microsoft was losing money on every console produced, no reason to believe that wasn't the case for Sony as well
 

Fat Frog

I advertise for Google Stadia
You said 200 votes for Stadia vs 10 in your poll. Can you provide the link to your poll?
It's in my Cloud Gaming News OT
https://www.neogaf.com/threads/cloud-gaming-news-ot-the-thread-gaf-was-begging-for.1581833/

But the proportion i talk about is the balance between enthusiasts/hostiles.
https://www.neogaf.com/threads/so-is-stadia-pretty-much-dead.1566041/
(your anti stadia link on Era has 4 pages, on gaf it's 5 but with far less population... )


It's pretty clear.
"Sarcasm" (about Stadia) > around 50 likes from Gaf
"Stadia is not dead" > 10 likes
 
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Topher

Gold Member
You should put your resolution up to 4K. Max out the Bitrate and put it on Ethernet. And crank up to Ultra Settings. 1080P looks like ass on anything now fren. PC app is .h264 but can do 120 Hz as long as you have HDMI 2.1.

The Shied TV does .h265 at 4K HDR but with 60 Hz because it has HDMI 2.0 but it looks better than PC app on every level after MAX bitrate.

Cheers mate, no hard feelings, just want to make you a believer if you give something new an open chance. It will not be 1:1 but it is getting close on the Shield (but the Shield definitely has more latency).

I try never to be too proud to admit I was wrong so.......I was wrong. I found the settings you mentioned and boosted them as much as I could. Yeah....I'm getting full 4k and it looks MUCH clearer than before. Input latency isn't bad either.

I am redownloading the game on PC to compare a bit more. Sucks having to turn on vsync though. The tearing was pretty bad without it.

It's in my Cloud Gaming News OT
https://www.neogaf.com/threads/cloud-gaming-news-ot-the-thread-gaf-was-begging-for.1581833/

But the proportion i talk about is the balance between enthusiasts/hostiles.
https://www.neogaf.com/threads/so-is-stadia-pretty-much-dead.1566041/
(your anti stadia link on Era has 4 pages, on gaf it's 5 but with far less population... )


It's pretty clear.
"Sarcasm" (about Stadia) > around 50 likes from Gaf
"Stadia is not dead" > 10 likes

Ok, but now we are comparing threads from April 2022 to a thread during Stadia's launch year. Obviously the latter is going to get more traction. Nah....we can go back and forth on this endlessly. I'm fine just agreeing to disagree.
 

Schmick

Member
1. No one believes that every gamer needs\wants to buy a console within it's 1st launch year. Consoles and GPUs drop in price all the time.
2. Gamers that want to play games, but think spending a few hundred bucks on hardware is too much "SHOULDN'T" be these video game company's main target audience.
3. Losing access to games "HAS" to be a bigger inconvenience, than paying a few hundred dollars for hardware.
1. Well, with the benefit of xCloud is, I can play Xbox Series games on my Xbox One. I don't have to wait for the price of the Series console to drop or wait for one to be available (Series X). I've been able to play FS2020 for instance.
 

Ozriel

Member
We are talking about permanent access to a game. Not over an 8-hour period.

in a future where cloud streaming becomes a significant console pillar (I.e, every game release is streamable), your library would still be what you’ve paid for. So you could likely still stream stuff that’s been delisted…same way you can download delisted Steam and Xbox digital titles that you’ve already bought.



I rather have portable console like switch or steam deck. I really hate cloud gaming, hope it dies very soon.

“I hope everything I’m not interested in dies very soon” is kinda selfish, wouldn’t you say?
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
What makes you believe that they do?

It was we'll documented for the past few gens that Microsoft was losing money on every console produced, no reason to believe that wasn't the case for Sony as well

Sony has stated so. On both the PS4 and PS5. They do still lose money on the PS5 DE though. But that's only on 10% of all PS5s sold. Don't forget that Sony is a hardware company first and foremost.

in a future where cloud streaming becomes a significant console pillar (I.e, every game release is streamable), your library would still be what you’ve paid for. So you could likely still stream stuff that’s been delisted…same way you can download delisted Steam and Xbox digital titles that you’ve already bought.

I don't trust that companies will operate in good faith here. And there are zero reasons for these corporations that love money to get rid of digital downloading. There's literally no consumer upside to taking away the ability to download games
 
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Jigsaah

Gold Member
https://www.keengamer.com/articles/...ng-cannot-be-allowed-to-replace-local-gaming/

INPUT LAG
"Cloud gaming suffers notoriously from input lag. There is no getting around it. The very nature of cloud gaming requires that your input from your controller, which has input lag of its own, go through the vast network of the internet, tell a server playing your game what to do which could be hundreds of miles away, and then send that visual information back to your TV within a fraction of a second. Honestly, that technology is able to do this at all is fascinating. However, the ability to do something at all is not the ability to do something well.

The results do vary, latency for all cloud based gaming seems to be determined by a number of different factors. Internet speed, location relative to server, wireless connection vs. hardwired connection, and even the game itself all play a part in the time that it takes for your eyes to see what your fingers have commanded. It can be as low as 75 milliseconds to as high as 300 milliseconds. Regardless, hardware gaming will always be faster than cloud gaming."

In my own opinion, I don't think cloud gaming will ever replace local gaming especially when you consider the fact that consoles/PCs will always get more powerful over time (there will be a PS6 and a PS7 and so on and so forth). And also cloud gaming will always suffer from more input lag than local gaming, due to this fact alone I would rather just stick to local gaming.

THE LAST THING A GAMER WANTS IS MORE INPUT LAG WHICH IS WHAT CLOUD GAMING BRINGS TO THE TABLE!!! So my fellow gamers say no to the future of cloud gaming and say yes to the future of local gaming.
Who said anything about replacing? I like having it as an option. It's good for games where input lag doesn't matter as much. Like a Dragon is a prime example and a great game to boot.

As long as there are twitch shooters, fighting games, rhythm games and path of exile there's no shot cloud will ever fully replace local pc and console gaming.
 

vj27

Member
I played all of elden ring off my phone and pc (Xbox console streaming) an while there was lag I got surprisingly used to it and was still dodging and winning pve/PVP fights. I played it streaming cuz I bought a copy for my bro as a gift an he no life’s these games so I used the streaming as a ghetto split screen and it was the most fun I’ve had all year.

Like we cleared bosses and my bro is the type to YouTube cheats and cheese his way through it while I was a firm believer in just git gud. An I was nasty at it for no reason on iPhone 11 Pro Max lmao.

People are doom & gloom with the cloud but to me it’s straight up away to bring couch co-op back an I couldn’t really care if you hated cloud or not, we can all agree that split screen an couch co-op is a dead genre nowadays? Everything’s strictly online already so it might as well benefit me as a gamer feel me.
 
Microsoft's vision of obliterating the used game market is finally here with cloud gaming, they jumped the gun with the Xbone but it was only a matter of time since "progress" in the video game industry always seems to involve making things worse for the consumer, funny how that works.
Microsoft was looking into creating a "used" digital game license marketplace back in 2013 where people could sell their no longer wanted digital games to each other. This would have reinvigorated the used game market for consumers.
 

Topher

Gold Member
Compared two screenshots for purposes of image quality comparison. Left side is from my PC. Right side is from Geforce Now.


Not sure why the screenshot from my local PC is much brighter. The game is a little brighter playing locally even though the brightness setting on both is the same. But that shot kind of exaggerates the brightness for some reason.
 

Fahdis

Member
£180 a year. Now add that up over a generation for what is an inferior experience where you don't own the hardware.

You don't think they will upgrade the instances as time goes by? 🤣 And its basically 4 years of cost for a full 3080 and by that time we should be on brand new cards.
 

Fahdis

Member
I try never to be too proud to admit I was wrong so.......I was wrong. I found the settings you mentioned and boosted them as much as I could. Yeah....I'm getting full 4k and it looks MUCH clearer than before. Input latency isn't bad either.

I am redownloading the game on PC to compare a bit more. Sucks having to turn on vsync though. The tearing was pretty bad without it.

Truly nice to hear that. Lets get your 1 on 1 simple short review in terms of comparison. I'm excited to hear it :) and as I said, Shield TV takes it to another level with the superior codec but its not the same as pristine PC quality with a direct connection unless you sit 6 feet back.

I played 4K on my Apple M1 Mini and it looked a 2K stream compared to my Shield on my OLED CX. The Monitor or TV matters as well with how its latency affects the games. The Shield hardware has its own latency. But the OLED barely has any on game mode and has amazing blacks but not prone to artifacting unfortunately. Its only in the dark scenes you can see it if you sit close enough.

Either way, not too proud to say my console of choice is a Dildo. Other than that thanks for hearing me out. The only cons GFN has left for me is the Publishers not opting in spades and Mods not being available 🥲.

Edit: Aaaahh crap, sorry double post.
 
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Schmick

Member
Sony has stated so. On both the PS4 and PS5. They do still lose money on the PS5 DE though. But that's only on 10% of all PS5s sold. Don't forget that Sony is a hardware company first and foremost.



I don't trust that companies will operate in good faith here. And there are zero reasons for these corporations that love money to get rid of digital downloading. There's literally no consumer upside to taking away the ability to download games
I don't understand how the PS5, which affectively is the same spec as the Series X, can be profitable whilst the Series X isn't.
 

Ozriel

Member
I don't trust that companies will operate in good faith here. And there are zero reasons for these corporations that love money to get rid of digital downloading. There's literally no consumer upside to taking away the ability to download games

If you were so concerned about the best for consumers, you wouldn’t be supporting arguments here that are adamantly against gaming when away from consoles or the ability to game without spending hundreds of dollars on a new console.

Back to your lack of trust, one would imagine that a service where owned games constantly vanish would receive immense consumer backlash. We also have precedence here where pretty much every console/PC digital download service allows you to download delisted games from your library. Or at least provide refunds when that isn’t possible.

cloud streaming isn’t billed to replace at home console gaming. It seems a bit weird for people to be stridently opposed to a convenient option.
 

Topher

Gold Member
I don't understand how the PS5, which affectively is the same spec as the Series X, can be profitable whilst the Series X isn't.

I'm guessing the design choices play into the price. XSX has two connected boards versus PS5's single motherboard. XSX design makes it more compact and thus, more expensive to build. That is my guess anyway.

cloud streaming isn’t billed to replace at home console gaming. It seems a bit weird for people to be stridently opposed to a convenient option.

That is true. It is also weird for gamers to bill cloud streaming as replacement to home console gaming when it isn't being marketed as such.
 
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DeepEnigma

Gold Member
Who said anything about replacing?
The industry has shown time and time again since the horse armor, that slipper slopes is not a fallacy. If they can sell people on the "infinite power computing of the cloud" just buy a controller with a sub, get enough "dumbing down more convenience" on board, an not have to spend billions on consumer R&D boxes... they will jump on that ultimate DRM of you owning nothing and like it faster than you can blink. They tried a similar flex in 2013, and yet now they are doing the death by 1,000 cuts of that very vision each and every year.

It's best we keep having these conversations in the forefront, that this should only be a side option, a distance side option to native box play.

Microsoft was looking into creating a "used" digital game license marketplace back in 2013 where people could sell their no longer wanted digital games to each other. This would have reinvigorated the used game market for consumers.
Nah, that is what they came out to damage control well after the E3 debacle. If that was their true intent, that would have been an on stage E3 bullet point. It wasn't.

I'm guessing the design choices play into the price. XSX has two connected boards versus PS5's single motherboard. XSX design makes it more compact and thus, more expensive to build. That is my guess anyway.



That is true. It is also weird for gamers to bill cloud streaming as replacement to home console gaming when it isn't being marketed as such.
Size of the SOC is a big factor.
 
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Nah, that is what they came out to damage control well after the E3 debacle. If that was their true intent, that would have been an on stage E3 bullet point. It wasn't.
The Xbox One reveal event took place in May 2013, one month before E3. In that one month, they got raked through the coals for their always-online policies and they went defcon-1 trying to reverse everything as fast as possible. They never had a chance to explain or show how anything they had planned was going to work.
 
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