cryptoadam
Banned
How many Wendy's do I burn down and how many Nikes do I steal?
#WLM
#WhiteLivesMatter
#SayHisName
#WLM
#WhiteLivesMatter
#SayHisName
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Arizona Police Fatally Shoot Man Who Answers Door
- Thread starter BluRayHiDef
- Start date
just_some_nut
Member
How is this even a question? Guy was perfectly within his right to "answer his door with a gun" (pointed to the ground no less) as some are highlighting. That cop who shot is retarded; he clearly got scared because the victim walked out slightly too fast (half a second slower and this would've ended differently)
I'm sure they were all in shock, but I'm nonetheless amazed at everyone's calmness with him lying there and dying in front of them (hearing the cops try to justify the shot with him groaning in the background was morbidly laughable). I feel very sorry for the victim and his girl
I'm sure they were all in shock, but I'm nonetheless amazed at everyone's calmness with him lying there and dying in front of them (hearing the cops try to justify the shot with him groaning in the background was morbidly laughable). I feel very sorry for the victim and his girl
The Bloody-Nine
Member
I'm not American so pardon my ignorance, but why weren't the cops immediately calling for an ambulance? Maybe they did and I missed it.
BluRayHiDef
Banned
The officers were more concerned with consoling their guilty consciences by explaining that they did nothing wrong to the victim's girlfriend.
moose fatcat
Banned
The impressive thing is how each of these get looked at individually like "Was this one
Thank you. This is the real issue. Not that the state continues to murder citizens with complete impunity but.... won't somebody please just think about the store windows???
#BrandLivesMatter
#WhatAboutWendys
Thank you. This is the real issue. Not that the state continues to murder citizens with complete impunity but.... won't somebody please just think about the store windows???
#BrandLivesMatter
#WhatAboutWendys
Eh, that's what it was called when I was a kid. Is there another name for it now? "Knock and run"? Regardless, what else what he thinking? Guess we will never know.
And why do we think he couldn't see the cops through the peephole? Those things usually have a fisheye lens and at least one cop was out a good ways from the door.
BluRayHiDef
Banned
In an ideal world, all police officers would be robots.
F
Foamy
Unconfirmed Member
Sickening how cold these guys are about the fact they just killed a man for no reason.
I have a cousin who's a retired police officer here in Canada and in his 25+ years as a police officer he only upholstered his weapon 6 times. American cops seem to pull their guns at every other call.
I have a cousin who's a retired police officer here in Canada and in his 25+ years as a police officer he only upholstered his weapon 6 times. American cops seem to pull their guns at every other call.
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He didn't charge out of the door. He stepped outside. I thought Americans were allowed to own guns, btw.
greenteaforme
Member
I don't get the people who try to justify every. single. police shooting/killing. Sometimes the police are in the wrong. There's a middle ground between "all cops are bad" and "all police shootings are okay."
David Ricardo
Member
Exactly.
I think 99.9% of the times cops are justified in their use of firearms, but this the 0.01%. The victim did nothing wrong and now he is dead.
The cop who shot the guy should be fired inmediately and charged for murder.
The Bloody-Nine
Member
Understandable when everyone is potentially carrying a gun.
888
Member
Sure we are and do. But stepping out the door with a gun is an automatic escalation to a knock. Given he seemed surprised who was outside of the door he should have tried to verify who was outside before putting himself in danger by exiting with a gun.
Late at night. Doesn’t know who is outside. Opens door fully and exposes himself. Has gun.
Given the wild times we live in, I’m not boldly stepping out without verification.
F
Foamy
Unconfirmed Member
And whos fault is that?
Frito_Pendejo
Member
Oh shut up. Good lord.
888
Member
I did some reading about the legality of answering a door with a gun. It’s legal but the below kinda sums up my opinion on it. Maybe don’t answer the door if you feel you need to have a gun and if you do keep it where it’s out of sight. Guns are about deescalating a situation and having it visible is an automatic escalation. I personally vote don’t answer the door in the middle of the night and it wouldn’t be a problem.
The family of the victim wants the Officer arrested for murder. I agree with them. But with everyone in the thread saying he was 100 percent not to blame or that having a gun readily out and running out into an unknown situation needs to really think about situational awareness not only for those directly involved but others in the vicinity. Don’t just swing open a door fully to someone you don’t know. Be safe and smart.
“Sure it’ s legal.
But it could be fatal.
Just ask Andrew Scott of Leesburg Florida.
Oh that's right, you can't ask Andrew Scott. Because he's dead. Because he answered the door with a pistol, and the cop who was pounding on his door at 1:30 in the morning shot and killed him. And the 11th circuit Appeals Court said that was fine with them. Even though the officer, Deputy Richard Sylvester, didn't announce himself and didn't have his patrol car lights on and didn't have any real reason for pounding on the door.
The court agreed that Scott had a right to answer the door with a loaded gun. The court even conceded that it was a reasonable thing to do when answering your door at 1:30 in the morning when some lunatic is pounding on the other side. But the court also said that the shooting was reasonable based on the totality of circumstances.
Some attorneys have labeled this as the “Fraidy Cop Rule:” Almost any shooting is excusable if the officer testifies that he was afraid for his life, and it was a split-second decision.
So maybe the smart thing to do is not answer your door when someone's pounding on it at 1:30 in the morning. Or if you do answer it, bring a gun and keep the gun behind the door. Or better yet, ask who's on the other side of the door before you open it up. And if it's a cop, let them know that you don't need tickets to the policeman’s ball.
EDIT: As Paul Harding points out, you must have a reasonable belief that your life is in danger to point a gun at another person. The legal, and in my opinion moral, thing to do in this situation, is not point a gun at someone unless you need shoot them. In my opinion, the smart thing to do when answering your door in the middle of the night is to keep your pistol at low ready and concealed behind the door. That's both legal, and a good strategy for dealing with the trigger happy.
Below is what I ran across when looking up if it was lawful. I’m going to look up that court case because I’m already down the rabbit hole.
Sure it’ s legal.
But it could be fatal.
Just ask Andrew Scott of Leesburg Florida.
Oh that's right, you can't ask Andrew Scott. Because he's dead. Because he answered the door with a pistol, and the cop who was pounding on his door at 1:30 in the morning shot and killed him. And the 11th circuit Appeals Court said that was fine with them. Even though the officer, Deputy Richard Sylvester, didn't announce himself and didn't have his patrol car lights on and didn't have any real reason for pounding on the door.
The court agreed that Scott had a right to answer the door with a loaded gun. The court even conceded that it was a reasonable thing to do when answering your door at 1:30 in the morning when some lunatic is pounding on the other side. But the court also said that the shooting was reasonable based on the totality of circumstances.
Some attorneys have labeled this as the “Fraidy Cop Rule:” Almost any shooting is excusable if the officer testifies that he was afraid for his life, and it was a split-second decision.
So maybe the smart thing to do is not answer your door when someone's pounding on it at 1:30 in the morning. Or if you do answer it, bring a gun and keep the gun behind the door. Or better yet, ask who's on the other side of the door before you open it up. And if it's a cop, let them know that you don't need tickets to the policeman’s ball.
EDIT: As Paul Harding points out, you must have a reasonable belief that your life is in danger to point a gun at another person. The legal, and in my opinion moral, thing to do in this situation, is not point a gun at someone unless you need shoot them. In my opinion, the smart thing to do when answering your door in the middle of the night is to keep your pistol at low ready and concealed behind the door. That's both legal, and a good strategy for dealing with the trigger happy.
The family of the victim wants the Officer arrested for murder. I agree with them. But with everyone in the thread saying he was 100 percent not to blame or that having a gun readily out and running out into an unknown situation needs to really think about situational awareness not only for those directly involved but others in the vicinity. Don’t just swing open a door fully to someone you don’t know. Be safe and smart.
“Sure it’ s legal.
But it could be fatal.
Just ask Andrew Scott of Leesburg Florida.
Oh that's right, you can't ask Andrew Scott. Because he's dead. Because he answered the door with a pistol, and the cop who was pounding on his door at 1:30 in the morning shot and killed him. And the 11th circuit Appeals Court said that was fine with them. Even though the officer, Deputy Richard Sylvester, didn't announce himself and didn't have his patrol car lights on and didn't have any real reason for pounding on the door.
The court agreed that Scott had a right to answer the door with a loaded gun. The court even conceded that it was a reasonable thing to do when answering your door at 1:30 in the morning when some lunatic is pounding on the other side. But the court also said that the shooting was reasonable based on the totality of circumstances.
Some attorneys have labeled this as the “Fraidy Cop Rule:” Almost any shooting is excusable if the officer testifies that he was afraid for his life, and it was a split-second decision.
So maybe the smart thing to do is not answer your door when someone's pounding on it at 1:30 in the morning. Or if you do answer it, bring a gun and keep the gun behind the door. Or better yet, ask who's on the other side of the door before you open it up. And if it's a cop, let them know that you don't need tickets to the policeman’s ball.
EDIT: As Paul Harding points out, you must have a reasonable belief that your life is in danger to point a gun at another person. The legal, and in my opinion moral, thing to do in this situation, is not point a gun at someone unless you need shoot them. In my opinion, the smart thing to do when answering your door in the middle of the night is to keep your pistol at low ready and concealed behind the door. That's both legal, and a good strategy for dealing with the trigger happy.
Below is what I ran across when looking up if it was lawful. I’m going to look up that court case because I’m already down the rabbit hole.
Sure it’ s legal.
But it could be fatal.
Just ask Andrew Scott of Leesburg Florida.
Oh that's right, you can't ask Andrew Scott. Because he's dead. Because he answered the door with a pistol, and the cop who was pounding on his door at 1:30 in the morning shot and killed him. And the 11th circuit Appeals Court said that was fine with them. Even though the officer, Deputy Richard Sylvester, didn't announce himself and didn't have his patrol car lights on and didn't have any real reason for pounding on the door.
The court agreed that Scott had a right to answer the door with a loaded gun. The court even conceded that it was a reasonable thing to do when answering your door at 1:30 in the morning when some lunatic is pounding on the other side. But the court also said that the shooting was reasonable based on the totality of circumstances.
Some attorneys have labeled this as the “Fraidy Cop Rule:” Almost any shooting is excusable if the officer testifies that he was afraid for his life, and it was a split-second decision.
So maybe the smart thing to do is not answer your door when someone's pounding on it at 1:30 in the morning. Or if you do answer it, bring a gun and keep the gun behind the door. Or better yet, ask who's on the other side of the door before you open it up. And if it's a cop, let them know that you don't need tickets to the policeman’s ball.
EDIT: As Paul Harding points out, you must have a reasonable belief that your life is in danger to point a gun at another person. The legal, and in my opinion moral, thing to do in this situation, is not point a gun at someone unless you need shoot them. In my opinion, the smart thing to do when answering your door in the middle of the night is to keep your pistol at low ready and concealed behind the door. That's both legal, and a good strategy for dealing with the trigger happy.
Frito_Pendejo
Member
I mean, I have no clue how you could defend the cop in this situation? The dude clearly goes into a submissive position and then gets shot. You can clearly see him giving himself up and then bang bang bang. Shit like this can’t happen and you can’t have a guy behind the badge behaving like this.
Goro Majima
Kitty Genovese Member
I know it's a hard game for the NRA to play but I wish they would speak out against these kinds of situations.
He was using his personal defense sidearm in the lawful manner for which it was intended and then was attempting to comply with an officer's orders. Like how isn't this textbook 2nd amendment stuff when the alternative is not exercising those rights?
He was using his personal defense sidearm in the lawful manner for which it was intended and then was attempting to comply with an officer's orders. Like how isn't this textbook 2nd amendment stuff when the alternative is not exercising those rights?
888
Member
Who is defending the cop?
Frito_Pendejo
Member
Oh I didn’t mean anybody was. It was just sort of an in general type deal.
888
Member
Gotcha. I think this is one of those situations most everyone is going to agree he shouldn’t have been shot. We will see if they press charges on the cop.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Who answers their door holding a gun?
And who immediately shoots someone answering their own door who is also holding a gun?
Oh only in America.
And who immediately shoots someone answering their own door who is also holding a gun?
Oh only in America.
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triplestation
Member
this is so goddamn sad
the cops seemed young and not very ezperienced and must have had a heightened sense of paranoia given the time of night and location
and then this guy comes out with a gun
that shit just shortened that inexperienced paranoia fuse by about 5/8th
a dummy with a gun gets killed by paranoid rookies
the cops seemed young and not very ezperienced and must have had a heightened sense of paranoia given the time of night and location
and then this guy comes out with a gun
that shit just shortened that inexperienced paranoia fuse by about 5/8th
a dummy with a gun gets killed by paranoid rookies
REE Machine
Banned
why would you bring a gun out when you know the cops are knocking...?
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DavidGzz
Member
So she called the police but didn't tell her bf or husband she did? If she knew they were coming she should have answered the door or at least given him a heads up when they knocked. If he knew it was the police, that was a dumb move but people do stupid shit when domestic violence is involved. Tough situation. Also, this post would get me banned from era.
I hate this type of shit though because 99.9% of police interactions are peaceful but this is the stuff that spreads like wildfire making it seem like LE is just out to do harm. My ass.
Nope, that is just your perception because the only cop interactions you see are the bad ones. I've worked at a 911 center for 11 years. Only one guy has been shot in the two counties I dispatch for in all of those years. That includes 10 police departments. Also, he shot first, it was a shootout in an apt complex.
I hate this type of shit though because 99.9% of police interactions are peaceful but this is the stuff that spreads like wildfire making it seem like LE is just out to do harm. My ass.
Nope, that is just your perception because the only cop interactions you see are the bad ones. I've worked at a 911 center for 11 years. Only one guy has been shot in the two counties I dispatch for in all of those years. That includes 10 police departments. Also, he shot first, it was a shootout in an apt complex.
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Keihart
Member
The dude was alive for a while, holy shit.
While i do understand for the cops to get scared when seeing someone armed, that was some poor reaction all around. The cop that had a better angle didn't shoot probably because it was obvious what was happening and probably should of done a call out about it, but the closer cop to the door panicked probably because he only glimpsed at the gun. Their reaction afterwards tho has no justification, the error was pretty clear, he should've of known he fucked up.
Looks shitty to be a cop in NA since there are so many guns all around, shouldn't there be like a protocol as to how to call people out? like, " this is the police, don't aproach the door armed" or something.
Also, with so many armed civilians you would think that cops would get more training, i heard they get pretty shitty training all around.
While i do understand for the cops to get scared when seeing someone armed, that was some poor reaction all around. The cop that had a better angle didn't shoot probably because it was obvious what was happening and probably should of done a call out about it, but the closer cop to the door panicked probably because he only glimpsed at the gun. Their reaction afterwards tho has no justification, the error was pretty clear, he should've of known he fucked up.
Looks shitty to be a cop in NA since there are so many guns all around, shouldn't there be like a protocol as to how to call people out? like, " this is the police, don't aproach the door armed" or something.
Also, with so many armed civilians you would think that cops would get more training, i heard they get pretty shitty training all around.
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Bumblebeetuna
Member
Dude was clearly complying with officers. Nothing surprising about this video. Poorly trained morons with guns and are above the law. I mean just listen to the partner of the guy who just murdered someone in cold blood, he’s acting as if nothing was wrong with it. They just killed a dude. I assume that was him groaning and wailing as he died.
Also, the argument that Cops are in such a dangerous job is also BS.
While dangerous, it's much safer than many other jobs that exist and we don't give those professions carte blanche to shoot first and ask questions later. We're making excuses for cops that don't even exist.
www.huffpost.com
If you don't like huff post there are many more that have posted this story and the stats come straight from the government.
- Logging workers: 128.8
- Fishers and related fishing workers: 117
- Aircraft pilot and flight engineers: 53.4
- Roofers: 40.5
- Structural iron and steel workers: 37
- Refuse and recyclable material collectors: 27.1
- Electrical power-line installers and repairers: 23
- Drivers/sales workers and truck drivers: 22.1
- Farmers, ranchers, and other agricultural managers: 21.3
- Construction laborers: 17.4
While dangerous, it's much safer than many other jobs that exist and we don't give those professions carte blanche to shoot first and ask questions later. We're making excuses for cops that don't even exist.
Police Work Isn't as Dangerous as You May Think
Attacks on police are a great media story, but if the false narrative -- that policing is getting more dangerous -- continues to spread it will have a significant effect on how police do their jobs --- making them more fearful than they already are, with increasingly deadly results for the...
If you don't like huff post there are many more that have posted this story and the stats come straight from the government.
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StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
True. Its whatever the media wants to focus on. Although you'd think there would be some media glitz on roofers splitting their head open.Also, the argument that Cops are in such a dangerous job is also BS.
Out of approximately one million police and law enforcement personnel, with 126 deaths per year, the death rate for police is 12.6 per hundred thousand.
- Logging workers: 128.8
- Fishers and related fishing workers: 117
- Aircraft pilot and flight engineers: 53.4
- Roofers: 40.5
- Structural iron and steel workers: 37
- Refuse and recyclable material collectors: 27.1
- Electrical power-line installers and repairers: 23
- Drivers/sales workers and truck drivers: 22.1
- Farmers, ranchers, and other agricultural managers: 21.3
- Construction laborers: 17.4
While dangerous, it's much safer than many other jobs that exist and we don't give those professions carte blanche to shoot first and ask questions later. We're making excuses for cops that don't even exist.
Police Work Isn't as Dangerous as You May Think
Attacks on police are a great media story, but if the false narrative -- that policing is getting more dangerous -- continues to spread it will have a significant effect on how police do their jobs --- making them more fearful than they already are, with increasingly deadly results for the...
If you don't like huff post there are many more that have posted this story and the stats come straight from the government.
But the difference with cops is what Howard Stern said a long time ago..... "people love conflict". And none of those jobs in the list involves conflict. It's people getting killed in accidents. No clicks or selling newspaper copies promoting a garbage worker died falling off a garbage truck.
Also, being a cop has so many types of jobs there's going to be a big difference between a SWAT team busting down doors, cops patrolling bad neighbourhoods, meter maids, and the cop whose job is to sit at the station.
If the going rate is 12.6 per 100,000 cops, a deeper analysis (if one exists) would probably show drug enforcement guys getting into shootouts at 500 and the parking ticket guy at 0.
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Falcs
Banned
This is why everyone having guns in America is fucking stupid.
Of course the cop is a piece of shit who overreacted, but wtf? Why would you just open the door and walk out with a gun?
Cops in America are too scared of getting shot first because everyone is potentially carrying a gun.
This sort of shit wouldn't happen where I live in Australia.
Knock knock
Me: "Who is it?"
"Police"
"What do you want?"
"blah blah".... Followed by a million different potential outcomes that don't end with me being shot.
Of course the cop is a piece of shit who overreacted, but wtf? Why would you just open the door and walk out with a gun?
Cops in America are too scared of getting shot first because everyone is potentially carrying a gun.
This sort of shit wouldn't happen where I live in Australia.
Knock knock
Me: "Who is it?"
"Police"
"What do you want?"
"blah blah".... Followed by a million different potential outcomes that don't end with me being shot.
Keihart
Member
Cool stats and all but...can you shoot a fall or a tree trunk to stop it from killing you?Also, the argument that Cops are in such a dangerous job is also BS.
Out of approximately one million police and law enforcement personnel, with 126 deaths per year, the death rate for police is 12.6 per hundred thousand.
- Logging workers: 128.8
- Fishers and related fishing workers: 117
- Aircraft pilot and flight engineers: 53.4
- Roofers: 40.5
- Structural iron and steel workers: 37
- Refuse and recyclable material collectors: 27.1
- Electrical power-line installers and repairers: 23
- Drivers/sales workers and truck drivers: 22.1
- Farmers, ranchers, and other agricultural managers: 21.3
- Construction laborers: 17.4
While dangerous, it's much safer than many other jobs that exist and we don't give those professions carte blanche to shoot first and ask questions later. We're making excuses for cops that don't even exist.
Police Work Isn't as Dangerous as You May Think
Attacks on police are a great media story, but if the false narrative -- that policing is getting more dangerous -- continues to spread it will have a significant effect on how police do their jobs --- making them more fearful than they already are, with increasingly deadly results for the...
If you don't like huff post there are many more that have posted this story and the stats come straight from the government.
Not saying that cops should be always be shooting first and all, but that is a pretty big leap in logic if you compare those threats. That's why there are safety measures for any dangerous job that adequate to that job, it just so happens that shooting it's an appropriate sometimes for cops.
I bet that if you could somehow restrict suspects with web shooters everyone would be rocking those instead.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
One thing the job stat list doesn't take into account is deaths per time/interaction.
Loggers getting killed 128.8 per 100,000 is much higher than cops. But a logger is surely doing actual logging work a hell of a lot more in an 8 hour day than the average cop getting into dangerous interactions and shootouts with crooks.
Even the most unlucky cop forced to patrol a shitty neighbourhood isn't getting into gang battles or busting down doors like an episode of COPS every day.
Looking at it that way, I bet any cop on the front lines adding up the amount of time they spend actually getting into confrontations vs. injuries is going to be a much higher stat than injury rate of loggers or roofers (on a time basis).
Loggers getting killed 128.8 per 100,000 is much higher than cops. But a logger is surely doing actual logging work a hell of a lot more in an 8 hour day than the average cop getting into dangerous interactions and shootouts with crooks.
Even the most unlucky cop forced to patrol a shitty neighbourhood isn't getting into gang battles or busting down doors like an episode of COPS every day.
Looking at it that way, I bet any cop on the front lines adding up the amount of time they spend actually getting into confrontations vs. injuries is going to be a much higher stat than injury rate of loggers or roofers (on a time basis).
DavidGzz
Member
Also, no one takes into account how many officers are rushing to break up fights, domestics, thefts in progress, etc. Those don't make the news. I sit there on the phone with a 10 year old girl who is watching her mom's bf beating her while an officer is coming to rescue her mom and another officer is trying to console her. I am listening as an officer takes over for someone doing chest compressions on their dying husband, etc. Everyone just wants to focus on the few bad situations. There are millions of interactions with police daily. A couple go south and now all cops are bad. Sure. I'm not dismissing the bad ones, there are obviously some who are pieces of shit but that goes for all people in any profession. We won't be safe from .001 percent of situations going bad until we have Robocops patrolling the streets shooting balls off of sexual predators.
BluRayHiDef
Banned
You're a police dispatcher? How many calls do you handle per shift?
DavidGzz
Member
Police, fire, and ambulance dispatcher. Weekdays 20-30, weekends 50+. This is combining calls for ambulance, alarms, fights, domestics, car crashes, etc. Let's just say I was looking at my stats and I've handled over 30k calls. This doesn't include any officer,fire,ambulance initiated tickets.
BluRayHiDef
Banned
That's a lot of emergencies. Damn.
DavidGzz
Member
I live in a small area with not much going on, at least that is what I thought before getting a job there. It's insane how many things go on in your county without your knowledge.
GeorgPrime
Banned
Jeah. Then criminal hackers will hack the system and make them shoot everybody else
The Bloody-Nine
Member
Yours?
BluRayHiDef
Banned
The writers of the constitution.
SirKicksalot
Member
I wonder what the caller thinks now:
It started as a noise complaint. It ended in another fatal Phoenix police shooting
The episode is one in a string of Phoenix police shootings and has reignited criticism from advocates.
eu.azcentral.com
BluRayHiDef
Banned
I'm not trying to be funny, but if a U.S. citizen decides to equip themselves with a gun due to an expectation of possibly having to use it, then maybe they should also don a ballistics vest and face mask. The same applies to an expectation of being contacted by the police, since U.S. police quickly defer to their guns if they merely feel threatened.
DavidGzz
Member
I wonder what the caller thinks now:
It started as a noise complaint. It ended in another fatal Phoenix police shooting
The episode is one in a string of Phoenix police shootings and has reignited criticism from advocates.eu.azcentral.com
Jesus. Yeah, you'll have that. Callers will exaggerate shit to get a quicker more serious response. What an asshole.
Actually, what I read was majority of deaths were from traffic accidents and that wasn't even with them in hot pursuit.
We have non-lethal munitions. Why not have that be the only thing police can use?
Frito_Pendejo
Member
Ahh the good old “this wouldn’t happen in my country” crew