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Are Souls games too hard? Completion trophy percentages say "no"

Melchiah

Member
Plus the series introduced a lot of changes (improvements) for the sake of mainstream accessibility- immediate fast travel, localized merchants, streamlined weapon upgrading, etc. None of that permanent health bar reduction curse shit past the first game. All of which I'm personally thankful for.

Bloodborne had like half the stats available compared to other Souls games, and a fraction of the weapons. NPC summons were later patched in. And even then, there's an unofficial easy mode by the name of "Ludwig's Holy Blade".

+ The axe with its spin-to-win move.
 
It's not clunky. You summon help, and it appears in a matter of seconds in Dark Souls 3. Summoning other player may take a while in Bloodborne these days though. There are NPC summon signs for a bit of help, and player summons for those parts you can't beat even with a NPC companion.

I don't think the easy mode would help people get into the Souls games, if they don't have the patience for them now. Unless they want the easy mode to also entail the loss of XP currency on death being removed, and being respawned right where you died.

I have a difference of opinion there, but it's cool that you like it. I personally think the "easy mode" here is not super functional as a replacement for an easy mode in this case because dwindling online populations make "easy mode" harder and harder to use. Add to that a lot of weird user unfriendly stuff like booting a co-op partner after a boss kill and innate difficulty to matching up with people you're looking to (haven't tried Dark Souls III yet so maybe this is fixed) and I'd definitely describe it as clunky.

I'm not necessarily saying easy mode is something From should feel obligated to put in or even that it would definitely statistically benefit the game. I think it's likely that more ways to play would encourage more players, but that isn't my point. My point is that being adamantly against an easy mode when it need not affect you in any way and just because it violates some notion of how you think the game SHOULD be played is odd.
 

Raiden

Banned
They really don't. Not all games have to cater to everyone, moreover, if someone doesn't have the time to invest and learn the game, too bad.

Agree. I work, have a social life and still find time to play a decent amount a week.


I have no kids though i respect people that do and cant find the time but il guess you have to wait till they're older.





Then they can finish it for you.
 

spekkeh

Banned
Nice. I beat Ratchet and Clank. Eat that Souls kasuuls. Time for y'all noobies to git gud or recognize that you are not tuff enuff for my matoor gamers skills.
 
Legit though, theres no way for an "easy mode" of souls games to work and still be souls games at their core. Not because of the difficulty but because of the fundamental way the games are made. If you suck at it now youre still going to suck at it with lower health/damage enemies, and you already start the game on the lowest setting on NG. The games really aren't that difficult and there are plenty of things in game to help you on your way. Its just about learning the core systems, and there are many systems to help you do that, including going online for help. The in game tutorials could be less obtuse and explain things better. But at the end of the day, if you can't be bothered to learn the core systems or don't like the way theyre made, then theyre not for you and that's totally okay.
 

Tecnniqe

Banned
Those "buffs" you describe are called levelling up or special items/spells you can find.

As for the enemies on the way back to the boss being an obstacle... Find the shortcut and run, it's pretty simple really.
I don't need an explanation how to play the game. I know how to play them. Either I get the kill or I go back and gain a few levels and try again. Shortcuts I use as I find them.

Don't change the fact they can add an easy mode/assist without it affecting you in the slightest.

Grinding for hours won't help someone who struggle already.
 
I don't need an explanation how to play the game. I know how to play them. Either I get the kill or I go back and gain a few levels and try again. Shortcuts I use as I find them.

Don't change the fact they can add an easy mode/assist without it affecting you in the slightest.

Grinding for hours won't help someone who struggle already.
Yes actually, it will. Also like i said above, if youre struggling then you should be looking at what you're doing wrong and learning from your mistakes.

I had a hard time beating the Demon Prince in the Ringed City DLC
So i went back and leveled a bit, but also learned its moveset and when my openings were, how i Should treat it. Summoned up the NPCs and beat it.
 
Having a separate easy mode would remove tons of players which would absolutely make for a worse game for everyone else because:

A) less noobs to invade and terrorize if you're an asshole
B) less noobs to assist with your overpowered alt
 
Having a separate easy mode would remove tons of players which would absolutely make for a worse game for everyone else because:

A) less noobs to invade and terrorize if you're an asshole
B) less noobs to assist with your overpowered alt

They should probably remove offline mode then. Wouldn't want to deprive the community.
 

Amir0x

Banned
Souls games are hard to so many because gamers are often trained in instant gratification, and so have lost the art of patience.

Most Souls games aren't actually particularly tough once you approach them how the gameplay is designed to be played: methodically. Patiently. Observantly. No rushing, running. Slow, deliberate steps forward, reading messages, understanding your skill sets and weapons. If you prepare well, you will rarely die. There are a few bosses (especially in later Souls games) that can legitimately be on the tougher side, but for the most part the game is one of being acutely aware of what is at your disposal and what you're approaching in your environment.

Gamers are too impatient, as a rule.
 
it's kind of sad that game completion is often a minority of the audience. Imagine if these were the stats for watching a movie all the way through.
 

Quonny

Member
Introducing an easy mode could get people in the door who otherwise hear "souls games r hard!!!!!" and don't even give the games a chance.
 
Let's be real, if you really want to be a dick to scrubs who pick easy mode, here's what you can hypothetically do.

Make a character on easy mode.

Twink that character up.

Invade.

If anything it'd be a pool of helpless sheep just waiting for the wolves. I don't think there's even really an argument for ruining an asshole's experience.
 
Better thread title, IMO:

"Do Souls games continue to provide data that indicates they are a phenomenon on the landscape of video games?"

If Dark Souls trophies data seem to overwhelmingly indicate high rates of completion and the rest of the market pales in comparison, I'd say we have more of an indicator that those games continue to attract a dedicated following that outmatches most games on the market more than they indicate how difficult they are.

If the majority of other games on the market show an overwhelmingly low completion rate based on trophy/achievement data by comparison, that makes Dark Souls a statistical outlier... Not the defining game to make a statement on general game difficulty and how the audience is responding these days... Because despite continued upward mobility in terms of commercial success, Dark Souls v all of those other games with low completion rates still loses out.
 

jonno394

Member
it's kind of sad that game completion is often a minority of the audience. Imagine if these were the stats for watching a movie all the way through.

The time involved in finishing a game is more akin to watching a long tv series rather than a film imo. Loads of people give up on tv shows.
 
Better thread title, IMO:

"Do Souls games continue to provide data that indicates they are a phenomenon on the landscape of video games?"

If Dark Souls trophies data seem to overwhelmingly indicate high rates of completion and the rest of the market pales in comparison, I'd say we have more of an indicator that those games continue to attract a dedicated following that outmatches most games on the market more than they indicate how difficult they are.

Which means they are doing something right.

And shouldn't be needlessly changed
 
Completion doesn't really tell anybody anything about the difficulty of the game or if anybody finds the game hard. The only thing that it actually tells is that people seem to be more willing to complete one game over another.
 
But easy mode wouldn't be a change to the base Souls formula, it would be an addition for players that want it. Just because something is successful in no way indicates it shouldn't ever receive improvements.

It would.

It would splinter the online community.

And it would tempt people into playing the game in a sub-optimal way. More options aren't always better. Sometimes we need to have decisions made for us because we don't know what's best for us. Take games that allow you to save anywhere. It can ruin a game for a lot of people because of how it can you into the habit of save scumming. Therefore, some games are designed so that you can only have one save slot.
 
Which means they are doing something right.

And shouldn't be needlessly changed

Just because I'd rather not type it out again, from the other "tourist mode" thread (direct link to the post so you can get a better idea of the context in which I'm responding):

I actually don't disagree with you, but I think in the context of the grander conversation we're talking about with accessibilities and videogames -- a mere instrument of entertainment -- it's a bit of a mental stretch. I'd suggest developing a different angle, as I'm sure one exists that more eloquently and accurately captures the notion you're trying to get at.

I'd argue that games have become complex and multifaceted enough at this point that the vast majority of them would seriously not harm the more dedicated players by introducing a so-called tourist mode that allows less skilled or less dedicated players to enjoy facets of the experience that exist outside of the skill-achieved parts.

As I said in a previous post, it would not at all bother me to have folks showing up in Dark Souls OTs gushing about how they loved entering Anor Londo for the first time, and how tense the view from the church rafters looked as they inched along. Or how they laughed at the "Chest ahead" message on the ground at the end, etc... They wouldn't even need to mention anything about difficulty or anything at all. I'd personally be playing on a Normal or Hard setting, as I'm familiar with Dark Souls and do appreciate it for the challenge it presents. I don't have to force that angle of appreciation on anyone, and there's truly a lot more to the game that I appreciate just outside of that as well. This is just theoretical of course -- I don't expect ANYONE to take the time to add that easy mode into the original Dark Souls at this point, save for a potential remaster later.

Same with the Prius you use as an example. If there was a Prius OT that was super active in off topic discussion, it'd be just as valid exchange in conversation for someone to gush "OMG I got 80MPG average on this tank of gas!!! Coming from my beat-up old 1988 Datsun, this is life-changing!," and a user quoting it along the lines of "yeah I took my Prius to the track for shits and giggles, and putting out max RPMs for hours on end still netted an average 50MPG -- better than my collectors 1994 RX-7 that I also have; Prius is kinda dope, man. What a feat of engineering!"

Nothing lost, I feel.

But I also don't necessarily feel like developers HAVE TO do it, I just don't think they have anything to lose by doing so, and I think the community also only has anything to gain from it.

Nothing is being "needlessly changed," but I also don't advocate for forcing all devs to implement it. I just believe they have absolutely zero to lose by implementing it, and neither does the community that rallies around these games.
 
It would.

It would splinter the online community.

And it would tempt people into playing the game in a sub-optimal way. More options aren't always better. Sometimes we need to have decisions made for us because we don't know what's best for us. Take games that allow you to save anywhere. It can ruin a game for a lot of people because of how it can you into the habit of save scumming. Therefore, some games are designed so that you can only have one save slot.

As I stated above the idea of splintering the online community doesn't really hold up, there's already an offline mode being offered, and even if it is problematic there are probably ways around it.

Beyond that, it sounds like you're making a decision based on your own sensibilities of what is optimal and what should be allowed. These are not everybody's sensibilities and there's no objective downside to giving more options to more players. I would never use an easy mode, but the idea of railing against it out of a matter of principle is silly.
 

Eumi

Member
But easy mode wouldn't be a change to the base Souls formula, it would be an addition for players that want it. Just because something is successful in no way indicates it shouldn't ever receive improvements.
'Improvements' is kinda a biased way of putting it. Easy mode fucks with games like dark souls who lock progression behind difficulty. If DS1 had an easy mode, i guarantee half of the game's players would get to the skeletons, die repeatedly, and rather than turn around and look for the alternative route would bump the difficulty down.

Then they'd either be going through an area they're not supposed to do yet due to easy mode breaking the games natural progression curve, or they'd still struggle, and the fact that they're still dying on easy mode makes them more likely to drop the game.

So this idea that an easy mode would only improve players experience is kinda a pretty big assumption. With how difficulty spikes are utilised in the series, messing with damage values would very likely mess the game up.
 

vegohead

Member
Proud to be in that 8.4 percent of resonance of fate completions. 'Tis an easy game once you get the mechanics down.

The first dark souls was the hardest souls game for me (haven't played 3 or bloodborne yet) I didn't realize that you could summon npcs until late into the game :(
 

Tecnniqe

Banned
Yes actually, it will. Also like i said above, if youre struggling then you should be looking at what you're doing wrong and learning from your mistakes.

I had a hard time beating the Demon Prince in the Ringed City DLC
So i went back and leveled a bit, but also learned its moveset and when my openings were, how i Should treat it. Summoned up the NPCs and beat it.
If someone can't kill a thing and spend hours trying to grind it out it's not fun for most people hence why even care if there's an easy mode for them to use if they want.


Let me take it to the extreme here and broadstroke all games:

Do the fact trainers exist take away your enjoyment of every game ever because people can change how the game is played to suit them?
 
'Improvements' is kinda a biased way of putting it. Easy mode fucks with games like dark souls who lock progression behind difficulty. If DS1 had an easy mode, i guarantee half of the game's players would get to the skeletons, die repeatedly, and rather than turn around and look for the alternative route would bump the difficulty down.

Then they'd either be going through an area they're not supposed to do yet due to easy mode breaking the games natural progression curve, or they still won't struggle, and the fact that they're still dying on easy mode makes them more likely to drop the game.

So this idea that an easy mode would only improve players experience is kinda a pretty big assumption. With how difficulty spikes are utilised in the series, messing with damage values would very likely mess the game up.

I wasn't using "improvements" in that way. I don't think easy mode would improve my experience with the game at all, but looking at people asking for it I think there's a group of people that would definitely enjoy it and a group of people who it wouldn't really have an effect on. I was more using it to point out the fallacious line of thinking that just because something is functioning well now doesn't mean that it can't benefit from change. Quoting completion rates to imply that Souls should not change doesn't strike me as a very good argument.

I also don't think players who would want an easy mode need to be saved from themselves. If that's how they'd enjoy the game, that's absolutely fine. As for your specific examples, there's sequence breaking in most Souls games now, so I wouldn't worry about that as a result of easy mode, and if a player gives up while still dying on easy mode they probably wouldn't have stuck with the game anyway but easy mode probably gave them a better shot at it.
 
Souls games are not that hard. They just have unusual control layout and weird traps. Once you learn the control and remember the spawn it's just an normal game then.
People making memes about it but sometimes I actually see elitists using "Git gud" seriously. It's like being good in video games is actually the only accomplishment they get in their life.
 
Souls games are not that hard. They just have unusual control layout and weird traps. Once you learn the control and remember the spawn it's just an normal game then.
People making memes about it but sometimes I actually see elitists using "Git gud" seriously. It's like being good in video games is actually the only accomplishment they get in their life.

Definitely get that feeling sometimes too. Hence them being so defensive over the game's difficulty.
 
Another comparison you may wish to add in, for Salt and Sanctuary, as it's heavily inspired by Souls and I expect there's a lot of audience cross-over:

22.5% defeated the final boss
15.3% chose the good ending
13.4% chose the bad ending
 

PaulloDEC

Member
I have a difference of opinion there, but it's cool that you like it. I personally think the "easy mode" here is not super functional as a replacement for an easy mode in this case because dwindling online populations make "easy mode" harder and harder to use. Add to that a lot of weird user unfriendly stuff like booting a co-op partner after a boss kill and innate difficulty to matching up with people you're looking to (haven't tried Dark Souls III yet so maybe this is fixed) and I'd definitely describe it as clunky.

These are just a few reasons why the "But Souls games already have an Easy Mode!" defense is so flimsy. How many other games can you think of where certain difficulty modes vanish when you aren't online? How many are there where difficulty modes appear or disappear depending on how many other people are playing the game?

I've been trying to play this "Easy Mode" with a friend in the original Dark Souls recently, and ignoring the insane amount of bullshit you have to go through to get that game just working on PC, fulfilling all of the conditions to allow co-op is ludicrous. You need item X, you need to be in area Y (but if you've defeated Boss A you need to both make your way to area Z), player A has to be human but player B doesn't... and this is freakin' Easy Mode? I've been playing video games for nearly 30 years and I've never come across anything like this.
 
If someone can't kill a thing and spend hours trying to grind it out it's not fun for most people hence why even care if there's an easy mode for them to use if they want.


Let me take it to the extreme here and broadstroke all games:

Do the fact trainers exist take away your enjoyment of every game ever because people can change how the game is played to suit them?
Because what the easy mode is and how its implemented is important, and there isnt really a way to implement an "easy mode" into this series without it either:
-Being fairly useless
-breaking core mechanics.

The games aren't designed with it in mind and designing it around such a thing would dumb down the game for everyone (or take a lot of resources) or be useless to thise that need it. Like i said above. Even if you were to lower enemy damage output, aggressiveness and health. Players would still get destroyed and be just as frustrated if theyre not understanding the core concepts of the game. If you don't know how to roll, use a shield and look for openings by reading enemy attacks, you're going to have a bad time, because anything in these games can straight ruin you if you're not paying attention even if you're beyond them in power. That's what core systems like dodging and blocking are for, and if you can do those all its about is assesing your situation.

The alternative is dumbing down the level and boss design across the board so the game is more accessible, which of course would ruin it for other people. Yeah they could just design everything differently for easy mode, but at that point you're playing a different game and then why even bother playing the game at all.

Trainers can only do so much, theyre there to help you and teach you, but they can't do it for you. At the end of the day its still going to take some effort and struggle on your part to learn what you're doing, and thats what this series is all about, learning. Deaths are your trainers, it tells you you did something wrong and not to repeat that mistake.

You could make the argument that these games need better tutorials so that everyone better understands the games systems. But it doesn't need an easy mode.
 
These are just a few reasons why the "But Souls games already have an Easy Mode!" defense is so flimsy. How many other games can you think of where certain difficulty modes vanish when you aren't online? How many are there where difficulty modes appear or disappear depending on how many other people are playing the game?

I've been trying to play this "Easy Mode" with a friend in the original Dark Souls recently, and ignoring the insane amount of bullshit you have to go through to get that game just working on PC, fulfilling all of the conditions to allow co-op is ludicrous. You need item X, you need to be in area Y (but if you've defeated Boss A you need to both make your way to area Z), player A has to be human but player B doesn't... and this is freakin' Easy Mode? I've been playing video games for nearly 30 years and I've never come across anything like this.

You laid it out extremely well, there are so many frustrations. You can make an argument for NPC summoning, but they're generally only in specific spots you have to fight to get to. I think the summoning system works better as it's intended to, which is a way for a skilled player to seek help in extraordinary circumstances rather than a way for newer or less skilled players to manage with the game.

Because what the easy mode is and how its implemented is important, and there isnt really a way to implement an "easy mode" into this series without it either:
-Being fairly useless
-breaking core mechanics.

The games aren't designed with it in mind and designing it around such a thing would dumb down the game for everyone (or take a lot of resources) or be useless to thise that need it. Like i said above. Even if you were to lower enemy damage output, aggressiveness and health. Players would still get destroyed and be just as frustrated if theyre not understanding the core concepts of the game. If you don't know how to roll, use a shield and look for openings by reading enemy attacks, you're going to have a bad time, because anything in these games can straight ruin you if you're not paying attention even if you're beyond them in power. That's what core systems like dodging and blocking are for, and if you can do those all its about is assesing your situation.

The alternative is dumbing down the level and boss design across the board so the game is more accessible, which of course would ruin it for other people. Yeah they could just design everything differently for easy mode, but at that point you're playing a different game and then why even bother playing the game at all.

Trainers can only do so much, theyre there to help you and teach you, but they can't do it for you. At the end of the day its still going to take some effort and struggle on your part to learn what you're doing, and thats what this series is all about, learning. Deaths are your trainers, it tells you you did something wrong and not to repeat that mistake.

You could make the argument that these games need better tutorials so that everyone better understands the games systems. But it doesn't need an easy mode.

This is a very insightful post but I have to say I disagree with the assertion that lowering enemy stats and tempering enemy aggressiveness wouldn't serve well as an easy mode. The fact that grinding up stats in the game as it stands right now can make such a huge difference is a pretty good proof of concept for an easy mode in general being a lot more approachable, even with just tweaking of numbers.
 

Tecnniqe

Banned
Because what the easy mode is and how its implemented is important, and there isnt really a way to implement an "easy mode" into this series without it either:
-Being fairly useless
-breaking core mechanics.

The games aren't designed with it in mind and designing it around such a thing would dumb down the game for everyone (or take a lot of resources) or be useless to thise that need it. Like i said above. Even if you were to lower enemy damage output, aggressiveness and health. Players would still get destroyed and be just as frustrated if theyre not understanding the core concepts of the game. If you don't know how to roll, use a shield and look for openings by reading enemy attacks, you're going to have a bad time, because anything in these games can straight ruin you if you're not paying attention even if you're beyond them in power. That's what core systems like dodging and blocking are for, and if you can do those all its about is assesing your situation.

The alternative is dumbing down the level and boss design across the board so the game is more accessible, which of course would ruin it for other people. Yeah they could just design everything differently for easy mode, but at that point you're playing a different game and then why even bother playing the game at all.

Trainers can only do so much, theyre there to help you and teach you, but they can't do it for you. At the end of the day its still going to take some effort and struggle on your part to learn what you're doing, and thats what this series is all about, learning. Deaths are your trainers, it tells you you did something wrong and not to repeat that mistake.

You could make the argument that these games need better tutorials so that everyone better understands the games systems. But it doesn't need an easy mode.
I get that and I don't want them to change how the game works. I think tweaking a mode with stats for you and the enemy or even just adding a optional buff/debuff when you die X times would be enough for most and won't require any basic gameplay changes.
(PUG WoW raids style)

My extreme example with trainers was that if you use it to enable godmode you can still enjoy the game without any difficulty if only for story or whatever alone even if you use it all the time or toggle it.
You might not enjoy it that way, and I might not enjoy it that way but someone else might and it won't affect either of us.
 

Magnet

Neo Member
Also pretty interesting how you think self-selection only biases Dark Souls' percentages, as if other games were bought at random by people that didn't know a thing about them. News flash: people who buy MGSV probably like MGS games too, and yet look at the percentages.

The difference is that self-selection biases Dark Souls specifically because it is marketed to challenge the market to beat them. The mentality of "this is a really hard game, I bet you can't beat it, prepare to die" is a huge driving force in the audience for the Souls series when they play these games, and a game like MGSV does not have that specific factor working for it to motivate its audience to beat the game.

Most people buy Souls games because they want to overcome challenges, the process of which naturally leads to beating the game. People buy other games for many different reasons, and those reasons do not necessarily lead to beating the game with the same kind of drive as the Souls games. Self-selection is absolutely a factor. I don't think the Souls series is niche, but it's definitely targeted at a very specific market. I can convince my sister to try many different kinds of games, but the difficulty stigma with Souls is so much that she has no interest in ever trying it. This kind of mainstream perception is definitely going to skew who's buying and playing these games. And we can see with the Demon's Souls example in the OP that the completion percentage drops relative to the other Souls games when the self-selection factor is somewhat mitigated and more people who aren't the target audience try them out.
 

TrutaS

Member
If you coop, the games get easier. People need to get over their pride and just use the features the game provides. I beat all of those games until the end, using either my skills, exploits (like poisoning the false king in demon souls), or coop - and I loved every minute.

I have to add that cheesing is one of the things that give me the most pleasure in these games. Trapping Father gascoigne behind the tree in the last phase feel awesome!
 
These are just a few reasons why the "But Souls games already have an Easy Mode!" defense is so flimsy. How many other games can you think of where certain difficulty modes vanish when you aren't online? How many are there where difficulty modes appear or disappear depending on how many other people are playing the game?

I've been trying to play this "Easy Mode" with a friend in the original Dark Souls recently, and ignoring the insane amount of bullshit you have to go through to get that game just working on PC, fulfilling all of the conditions to allow co-op is ludicrous. You need item X, you need to be in area Y (but if you've defeated Boss A you need to both make your way to area Z), player A has to be human but player B doesn't... and this is freakin' Easy Mode? I've been playing video games for nearly 30 years and I've never come across anything like this.
While that's indeed plenty ridiculous for a supposed Easy Mode, you even glossed over the "be human" part. If a player is struggling, you can be sure they aren't swimming in humanity. This means they'll likely have to farm to keep their "easy mode" going, potentially between each attempt. This Easy Mode also opens you up to invasions, which is another absurd angle to the alleged lowered difficulty. I kind of prefer the exclusionary "this game is not for them" answers over the "it already has an easy mode" or it's already easy" ones. They're less patronising or intellectually dishonest.

I think the simplest and lowest effort solution is to bring back old-school cheat menus. The core experience won't have to be retooled in any way for people who don't care, but others who want to can tweak their personal journey. Some number modifiers can provide some granularity to the whole thing, like Soul multipliers, and would go a long way to make the game more digestible for the lesser skilled or the people who cannot invest as much time into the game. Straight up god-modes, turning off weight requirements, and a big head mode for good measure could of course be present too. Heck, since activating this would undoubtedly boot you out of achievements and online play, you might as well give you the ability to be permanently human, so you don't need to have gross peperami skin the entire time.
 

Rush_Khan

Member
The completion percentage for those games in the OP are high because generally only hardcore players will buy these kinds of games, and therefore more likely to complete them.
 
This is a very insightful post but I have to say I disagree with the assertion that lowering enemy stats and tempering enemy aggressiveness wouldn't serve well as an easy mode. The fact that grinding up stats in the game as it stands right now can make such a huge difference is a pretty good proof of concept for an easy mode in general being a lot more approachable, even with just tweaking of numbers.
You can still be very easily overwhelmed by even the simpler enemies even with some numbers turned down which is the point im trying to make. If the movesets are the same there are plenty of enemies in Dark Souls III that can and will stunlock you or launch yoy into the air, sometimes even off the map if you don't know how to deal with them and that is a frustrating situation regardless of whether or not their damage and health are turned down. So that alone isnt really helping anyone. The games are designed in a very specific way to make sure that their difficulty doesn't come from those numbers alone, it comes from the way the enemies and levels are designed and that's only been taken further and further the longer the series has gone on.

Lowering the health and damage on Friede, Orphan of Kos, Gael, Twin Princes, Nameless King etc will only do so much to lower the difficulty of these fights, because the difficulty of the fight comes from their mechanics rather than their health or damage, same with the Demon Prince and Midir. But once you know how to handle it, its a cake walk, which os why you see people beating bosses with drum kits on NG+7. When i struggled on the Demon Prince its not because of its health pool or damage (well, maybe that a little bit) but it was because i was having trouble managing two enemies at once and closing gaps when it would fire its laser, once i figured this out (and leveled up a bit) it was a cakewalk.

Theres also systems in game already to help midigate damage received and add to your own damage output to make you do more damage and thus end fights quicker, with numerous buffs, armors and what not. You also have access to a large number of healing items (after earning them) But new players wont understand these systems. So if anything Id argue that the difficulty comes from their overly obtuse nature and if the combat system was fulky explained at the beginning of the game then people wouldn't have nearly as much trouble with these games as they do.

I get that and I don't want them to change how the game works. I think tweaking a mode with stats for you and the enemy or even just adding a optional buff/debuff when you die X times would be enough for most and won't require any basic gameplay changes.
(PUG WoW raids style)

My extreme example with trainers was that if you use it to enable godmode you can still enjoy the game without any difficulty if only for story or whatever alone even if you use it all the time or toggle it.
You might not enjoy it that way, and I might not enjoy it that way but someone else might and it won't affect either of us.
Does it hurt me? (In the event that its only number changes in a different mode) no of course not. But like i say above, its not really helping anyone either.
 

Tecnniqe

Banned
Does it hurt me? (In the event that its only number changes in a different mode) no of course not. But like i say above, its not really helping anyone either.
Xpost
WoW is a great example of this.

Just ignore the difficulties that don't apply to you, as intended.

LFR is to see/experience the content and nothing more.

Normal is for the more casual players.

Heroic is for your semi-hardcore raid group.

Mythic is for your hardcore raid group.

Now say Dark Souls give you two options;

Simple - Easier mode for experiencing the content
Souls - The Souls experience

A simple fix for Simple mode would be to remove some boss moves from being used and/or adding (yet again taken from WoW) Determination
Your persistence in the face of adversity strengthens your resolve.

Damage dealt increased by 5%.
Healing received increased by 5%.
Health increased by 5%.

Which you can accept, will only trigger after X deaths and may scale even further if you keep dying.


This won't affect anyone or the gameplay design and it's just removing items and stat changing from the normal mode and shouldn't require any massive effort or implementation for the developer as mod tools already can do this with a few clicks.
Now I do think this could change a lot for a lot of people.
 

jessop

Neo Member
i know countless people irl who think dark souls looks coo but who aren't good at games and dont want to deal with the hassle of losing progress when you die to a boss. also just people who are really into the lore/atmosphere but find the game too hard; i know a few folks who cant get into the get because of the difficulty but watch a lot of youtube on it. dont see why they shouldnt get a version of the game they can enjoy
 
Maybe the people that are drawn to these games are just naturally more dedicated in that regard. Certainly by now people know what they're getting into with those games.
 

dose

Member
Where are these percentages coming from, OP? Afaik PSN doesn't give this information, only levels of rarity.
 
Well, I guess the percentage of people who know what they're getting into when they buy a Souls game is significantly higher than for other games.
 
Xpost

Now I do think this could change a lot for a lot of people.
Changing enemy patterns could work, but again, at least in later souls games like 3 i still feel it would only do so much for people that aren't getting it. Because even if you remove some of the Dancers moves like her grab attack and her freak out, shes still an incredibly difficult boss for others simply because of the way shes designed at her core. Her attacks are incredibly slow which makes it difficult to time your dodges and etc, and shes also a boss with pretty low health/damage considering where shes meant to be fought but ive still seen people on thos board consider her to be one of the most difficult bosses in the game or series. Ive beaten her with a longsword and greatsword, different sets of armor and on NG+ and consider her to be one of the easiest bosses in the game because i understand her mechanics, upping her health and damage would only make it marginally more difficult for me and marginally less difficult for others if they were to be lowered. Because at the end of the day its easy because i know what im doing, its hard for others because they don't.
Where are these percentages coming from, OP? Afaik PSN doesn't give this information, only levels of rarity.
Its a percentage of how many people with said game have that trophy.
 
Where are these percentages coming from, OP? Afaik PSN doesn't give this information, only levels of rarity.

I assume psnprofiles.com.

While it doesn't represent the whole Playstation users as not everyone is registered there, I think it's still somewhat accurate as a sample.
 
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