• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
  • The Politics forum has been nuked. Please do not bring political discussion to the rest of the site, or you will be removed. Thanks.

Apple must allow other forms of in-app purchases, rules judge in Epic v. Apple

wipeout364

Member
Jun 13, 2004
2,541
1,641
1,600
Lots do.. or did, like Fortnite.. just have to be multi-platform:
This is a a very specific case. Most games on the App Store are not multi platform and are tied to the Apple ecosystem and by terms you cited cannot sell currency outside of apple ecosystem. For example as far as I know both COD mobile and wild rift are both prohibited from this arrangement.

My examples are demonstrations of companies who completely abandon in app payments due to Apple taking 30% of subscriptions in perpetuity.
 

IntentionalPun

Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
Aug 28, 2019
9,207
16,931
660
This is a a very specific case. Most games on the App Store are not multi platform and are tied to the Apple ecosystem and by terms you cited cannot sell currency outside of apple ecosystem. For example as far as I know both COD mobile and wild rift are both prohibited from this arrangement.

My examples are demonstrations of companies who completely abandon in app payments due to Apple taking 30% of subscriptions in perpetuity.

Both of the games you listed... are multiplatform. Most mobile games are.. not even sure why you think otherwise?

And your examples.. are apps that allow payments collected outside of iOS, where the content unlocks on the iPhone.... so they were strange examples, as they expressly demonstrate how you were wrong lol

This is something Apple has always allowed.
 
Last edited:

Azurro

Member
Jun 11, 2018
2,570
4,652
485
Assume this will come to PSN and XBL eventually.

No it won't:

Notably, the judge rejected both parties’ definition of the marketplace at issue in the case. “The relevant market here is digital mobile gaming transactions, not gaming generally and not Apple’s own internal operating systems related to the App Store,” Gonzalez-Rogers wrote.
 
  • Fire
Reactions: Bryank75

PaintTinJr

Member
Jan 30, 2020
1,219
2,699
475
Oxfordshire, England
Given what Epic are now allowed to do - unless I'm misunderstanding things - they could offer their payment system to everyone else publishing through the apple store, allowing developers that don't use in app purchases, to offer up a free version of their app through appstore with the unlock code for the game sold through a link to Epic Games Store, and offer up a normal version but at 60% more expensive, to entice using Epic's store purchase.

If Epic were prepared to make just the interest or a tiny 1% cut on handling these transactions at scale through their store, they could really damage apple financially, because then they wouldn't just look like some random other store front - by bringing all the fornite customers - but would provide users with an equally definitive one account system for game app buying on an iphone. Apple would then have double the software published, which wouldn't help them, and be fighting on an uneven plane of costing 60% more for appstore games.

Apple's share price could be really damaged by such actions as investors would literally be watching the share value disappear. In such a situation Apple would have then wished they'd allowed side-loading on their general purpose computing smartphones/tablets to avoid this dilemma IMHO.
 

paparazzo

Member
Dec 14, 2008
2,622
205
1,075
Not a fan of government dictating how a business can operate, especially when Epic abided by Apple’s terms for years and just up and decided to breach their agreement. They could’ve found a way around the rules a la Spotify, Netflix, etc. via email and such. Joke’s on them for all the lost revenue this caused.
 

Azurro

Member
Jun 11, 2018
2,570
4,652
485
Not a fan of government dictating how a business can operate, especially when Epic abided by Apple’s terms for years and just up and decided to breach their agreement. They could’ve found a way around the rules a la Spotify, Netflix, etc. via email and such. Joke’s on them for all the lost revenue this caused.

Government intervention is sometimes necessary when you have markets that are so huge and dominated by a single mega entity.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ReBurn and yurinka

M16

Member
Jul 19, 2020
222
388
250
This is just the beginning. In the end, they will all be forced to allow third party app stores.
 

MrFunSocks

Member
Jul 9, 2020
4,544
8,209
665
A good outcome. Epic didnt get what they wanted, but they did cause a major ripple in how Apple is allowed to operate. Closed Garden's can still exist, they just cant handcuff users or developers to paying through their own gateways/restrict how a app can talk about its services and payment systems.

Also fun, Epic also gets smacked in this ruling for breach of contract to the tune of 4million. So in a way BOTH Apple and Epic lost. Its wonderful when two greedy ahole companies both lose.
$4 mil to epic is as close to nothing as you can get. For all that matters they won on this one.
 
  • LOL
Reactions: Blochu

Banjo64

Member
Dec 8, 2020
3,616
11,657
615
Holy shit, Epic won. After all the ridicule they received (including on this forum) for even daring to sue Apple.
Never really liked Tim Sweeney but he's a hero for this.
True but the ridicule from my perspective was because they are greedy as fuck but tried to present themselves as some some sort of freedom fighters fighting the big bad Apple for the good of me and you when really it’s just for the good of Epic. Not to mention Epic themselves are raping the minds of our kids with MTX and big booty anime slags.
 

wipeout364

Member
Jun 13, 2004
2,541
1,641
1,600
Both of the games you listed... are multiplatform. Most mobile games are.. not even sure why you think otherwise?

And your examples.. are apps that allow payments collected outside of iOS, where the content unlocks on the iPhone.... so they were strange examples, as they expressly demonstrate how you were wrong lol

This is something Apple has always allowed.
I was mistaken I guess, I searched Riots website and was unable to find a way to buy points from them as well COD mobile didn’t seem to have a way to purchase points outside the app from Activision directly. Could you give me the link so I can support the developers directly.
 

mckmas8808

Ah. Peace and quiet. #ADayWithoutAWoman
May 24, 2005
47,861
15,118
2,000
Not only does this not allow apps to collect payment inside the app w/o using Apples IAP, it even says Apple has the right to ask for commissions for purchases outside the app, much like Sony has their allowances for corssplay/crossbuy effecting their bottom line:


Now THIS is interesting!
 
  • Like
Reactions: phil_t98

FStubbs

Member
Aug 29, 2010
5,302
1,516
1,045
I don't understand a lot of this legal stuff, but if Apple decides to terminate Epic account and forbid the use and or development of Unreal Engine, it would be the biggest mistake they could make.

Many companies rely on Unreal Engine for their games and other applications. Apple not allowing Unreal on iOS, would mean that they are screwing everyone and will have to move on to something else. Consumers wanting to purchase those products will have to steer away from iPhone and iPad.
Apple's market is so huge that if they went nuclear, developers would move to other tools to make their games.
 

Yselacrey00

Banned
Nov 20, 2018
1,358
1,655
520
Huh? No that's not what this was about at all. Try educating yourself before posting.

This whole thing started when Epic was telling people "hey buy your Vbucks via our website and you'll get extra Vbucks" to buypass Apple's 30% cut. Had nothing to do with side-loading.

Apple then kicked them off the App Store and this lawsuit began.

The ruling says that Epic is allowed to do exactly what they were doing that caused them to be kicked off the App Store in the first place.
You are the only uneducated person here. What you said is what motivates the lawsuit.but it wasn't the basis of it. Epic was pursuing for Apple to allow side loads. They never sued to make Apple allow external links lmao.

You can even read Epic's statement about it, they call this a loss for them. So please shut up and educate yourself.
 
Oct 26, 2018
22,538
31,684
885
Can anyone summarize this whole case for idiots like me. It seems to get more confusing as I read people's comments.

Before (the situation)
xxxxx

What Epic is suing for
xxxxx

What the courts decided
xxxxx
 
Last edited:

Aguero9320

Member
Aug 20, 2014
1,119
1,563
650
Colorado Springs
Anyone confused as to the reality of the situation and who 'won', just read the post decision comments from Apple and Epic - you don't even have to read between the lines :messenger_tears_of_joy:
 

Guilty_AI

Member
Apr 12, 2020
5,115
10,414
770
Can anyone summarize this whole case for idiots like me. It seems to get more confusing as I read people's comments.

Before (the situation)
Apple had a term in their contract that said devs weren't allowed to put any form of advertisement for alternative forms of payments in the apps published on the app store, and that they had to use apple's own system if they had any in-app transactions (which gives apple a fee).

What Epic is suing for
It claims Apple is a monopoly and Epic should be allowed to put Fortnite on their store under their own terms, basically terms that don't give a single cent to Apple and lets them keep all profits.

What the courts decided
Apple now must allow apps available on their store to put links that can lead to external forms of payment, but that doesn't mean they aren't allowed to charge said apps in different ways (like asking a cut from all profits made on iOS devices).
It also has decided that Epic has breached contract and Apple is within their rights to cease every and all business with them, aka they can even ban unreal engine development tools from iOS if they so wish.
this
 
Last edited:

IntentionalPun

Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
Aug 28, 2019
9,207
16,931
660
I was mistaken I guess, I searched Riots website and was unable to find a way to buy points from them as well COD mobile didn’t seem to have a way to purchase points outside the app from Activision directly. Could you give me the link so I can support the developers directly.
It's allowed; doesn't mean they've implemented it.

But it may be possible that points purchased on Android carry over. The games are multiplat Android/iOS, and they are allowed to sell outside of iOS and have things carry over.

Most companies don't do it; that does not mean they aren't allowed.
 
Last edited:

reksveks

Member
Jun 4, 2020
5,198
4,897
425
Unsurprisingly a ouple of congress members have said that this judgement is not enough to fixed the issue in mobile app distribution.


We are probably going back to court soon to see exactly what these "buttons" can and can't do.
 
Dec 14, 2008
34,007
2,652
1,360
So why is apple celebrating and epic mad?
Because despite what the media is claiming, Epic didn't win anything.

Epic is still not allowed to put Epic Games Store on iOS and bypass App Store completely. Epic is still not allowed to bring Fortnite back to App Store without complying with Apple's other rules. Epic got told to pay Apple for breach of contract when they did the original stunt to directly allow payment for Fortnite and bypass App Store.

The only thing that Apple apparently lost was they can now no longer tell developers that you must not even mention there are methods of payment outside of App Store, nor prevent developers from redirecting to an outside payment portal. What this effectively means is that all Epic can do with Fortnite, when it returns to the App Store, is offer either direct payment in the app through App Store or direct to an outside link to Epic's website to do payment there.

Apple won everything else. They were not declared a monopoly. They don't have to allow 3rd party app stores. They don't have to allow sideloading. They basically get to keep the walled garden as it is, with no restrictions. This is a huge win for Apple in fact, and an equally big loss for Epic.
 
Last edited:

reksveks

Member
Jun 4, 2020
5,198
4,897
425
Apple won everything else. They were not declared a monopoly. They don't have to allow 3rd party app stores. They don't have to allow sideloading. They basically get to keep the walled garden as it is, with no restrictions. This is a huge win for Apple in fact, and an equally big loss for Epic.

To me, it's a loss for both and bigger loss for Epic though. A win for Apple would have been the Judge not striking out 3.1.1 or whatever she is specifically referring to in the app store rules.
 
Last edited:
Dec 14, 2008
34,007
2,652
1,360
This is just the beginning. In the end, they will all be forced to allow third party app stores.
Imagine thinking it even matters.

Spoiler: 3rd party app stores have been allowed on Android since DAY ONE. Sideloading has been allowed on Android since DAY ONE. What do you think Amazon App Store even is? The reality is no one gives a fuck on Android, if you're not on Google Play you might as well not exist. Amazon has a niche for Amazon App Store on Amazon devices which don't even allow you to install Google Play without hacking them first, and China bans Google entirely, but beyond that it's all Google Play and always has been.

Epic fought Google tooth and nail and released Epic Games Store for Android....and no one gave a shit. Epic was not able to convince anyone who uses Android why they should install Epic Games Store just to play Fortnite on Android. No one gives a fuck about Fortnite on Android and so when Apple kicked it off App Store, Google followed suit immediately and kicked it off Google Play the same day because fuck Epic quite frankly.
 
Last edited:

reksveks

Member
Jun 4, 2020
5,198
4,897
425
Imagine thinking it even matters.

Google clearly thought it mattered a little bit otherwise they would have started to give play store revenue splits to OEM's if they didn't pre-install the epic game store.

What the judge does with that, I don't know.
 

MrFunSocks

Member
Jul 9, 2020
4,544
8,209
665
I meant why were people expecting epic to loose this in the first place?
Doesn't make sense to me.

It should be quite obvious that apple is in the wrong here.
It’s not obvious though. It’s their platform, their devices, their OS, and no developer is forced to put their app on the store. Doing so means you have to follow the rules of the platform. Apple will likely just update their terms to mandate they get a cut off all purchases through the in game links, and get a cut from purchases made in other platforms if the player plays on iOS mainly, like Sony do.

Imagine if a court ruled that Sony had to let Microsoft have an Xbox store on the PlayStation dashboard and let them sell Multiplatform games on the PS5 without giving Sony a cut. Would you agree with that? That’s essentially the endgame here for Epic. This is just step 1 of creating precedent.

Personally I think this is a bad ruling and will only hurt consumers. This means you’ll have apps implementing their own payment gateways, many which will be insecure, and there will be many data breaches and stolen credit card details.
 
Last edited:

Halo is Dead

Member
May 20, 2018
8,178
14,869
820
A good outcome. Epic didnt get what they wanted, but they did cause a major ripple in how Apple is allowed to operate. Closed Garden's can still exist, they just cant handcuff users or developers to paying through their own gateways/restrict how a app can talk about its services and payment systems.

Also fun, Epic also gets smacked in this ruling for breach of contract to the tune of 4million. So in a way BOTH Apple and Epic lost. Its wonderful when two greedy ahole companies both lose.
4 million is a drop in the bucket for Epic though
 
Apr 28, 2020
678
1,393
490
MASSIVE video from Hoeg Law on this. TLDR seems to be that Apple won most of it, Epic won some of it, it isn't over yet, the Judge isn't a fan of either party and as usual the media is completely incompetent with their reporting.

 

radewagon

Member
Nov 11, 2016
625
945
460
Unless someone decides to bring back Infinity Blade, I'm not really sure what the point of any of this is.
 
Feb 11, 2015
1,085
1,337
610
Osaka Japan
So now we can have a popup saying that u can buy X item cheaper outside the app.
Click-> go to safari -> maybe login again? -> select payment method…. -> buy -> go back to game?

there’s some simple UX rules that user don’t remember more than 7 steps and any item to buy should be at maximum 3 clicks/touch away to complete the process without losing costumers.

pretty sure mostly of user would be; “ mehh I just buy it inside the game “
 

reksveks

Member
Jun 4, 2020
5,198
4,897
425
So now we can have a popup saying that u can buy X item cheaper outside the app.
Click-> go to safari -> maybe login again? -> select payment method…. -> buy -> go back to game?

there’s some simple UX rules that user don’t remember more than 7 steps and any item to buy should be at maximum 3 clicks/touch away to complete the process without losing costumers.

pretty sure mostly of user would be; “ mehh I just buy it inside the game “
This is where the difference between a button and external link could get tested and there might be some ways that devs might try and make the 7 steps shorter.

The other thing is that Apple is probably due some cut after the sale but the judge doesn't seem to have answered the question how much.
 

phil_t98

Member
Oct 10, 2014
5,133
5,504
735
4 million is a drop in the bucket for Epic though
It is but lost revenue is bigger, and they will still have to pay apple a cut even if they use their own payment method. They have won nothing really and apple can decide not to allow them back on the App Store and they would loose even more revenue.

lesson here is don’t break the contracts you were happy to sign to get the money in the first place
 
  • Like
Reactions: Halo is Dead

phil_t98

Member
Oct 10, 2014
5,133
5,504
735
So now we can have a popup saying that u can buy X item cheaper outside the app.
Click-> go to safari -> maybe login again? -> select payment method…. -> buy -> go back to game?

there’s some simple UX rules that user don’t remember more than 7 steps and any item to buy should be at maximum 3 clicks/touch away to complete the process without losing costumers.

pretty sure mostly of user would be; “ mehh I just buy it inside the game “

yeah seems like that but it won’t be much cheaper as apple can still ask for a cut, if they don’t get it then they can refuse the app on the App Store.

also downside to it is having your credit cards stored across multiple places which you can’t say will be 100% secure. I know nothing is 100% secure but at least apple and the other app stores try to be as secures as possible, do you think some dodgy app in the future will have the same security as apple or google do with your bank details?
 

Deaconstanjesusman

Neo Member
Oct 16, 2020
35
54
120
The amount of people on here who think everyone should get a free ride is ridiculous. Don’t like apples conditions, make your own operating system and phone. Put it on android. Complaining that you can’t have your app on a system built by another company for free
I hope apple don’t allow them back for their original violation.

its as stupid as the EU saying to Russia they can only use 50% of their pipeline they built and have to lease out the other 50%

Apple isn’t the only show in town
 
Last edited:

Sid Of Bee

Member
Mar 6, 2018
225
245
285
Assume this will come to PSN and XBL eventually.
Not a fair comparison imo. Playstation and Xbox aren't general use devices, they're specific use. Plus, you can buy games at many brick and mortar stores, including DLC. Also, EA Access is on Xbox. Although, to be fair, it would benefit us all if Steam or other game stores were available on these devices. I imagine one day that videogames will be like movies or music and can be purchased or accessed via many means and playable on any capable device. Exclusives are kinda weird.... Imagine a movie only playable on a Sony brand Blu-ray player. It's that videogame consoles have always used a different business model than other digital entertainment.

The more I think about it the more irrational it seems.
 

phil_t98

Member
Oct 10, 2014
5,133
5,504
735
Not a fair comparison imo. Playstation and Xbox aren't general use devices, they're specific use. Plus, you can buy games at many brick and mortar stores, including DLC. Also, EA Access is on Xbox. Although, to be fair, it would benefit us all if Steam or other game stores were available on these devices. I imagine one day that videogames will be like movies or music and can be purchased or accessed via many means and playable on any capable device. Exclusives are kinda weird.... Imagine a movie only playable on a Sony brand Blu-ray player. It's that videogame consoles have always used a different business model than other digital entertainment.

The more I think about it the more irrational it seems.
He has a point it will be the next stage, just because a phone is different to a console doesn’t mean they won’t try it elsewhere to make more money. The case with apple was to test the water of what’s happening
 

reksveks

Member
Jun 4, 2020
5,198
4,897
425
He has a point it will be the next stage, just because a phone is different to a console doesn’t mean they won’t try it elsewhere to make more money. The case with apple was to test the water of what’s happening
This case with Apple and Google will be a stop gap, the real question is whether congress passes any of the bills that they have proposed.
 
  • Like
Reactions: phil_t98

hlm666

Member
Feb 25, 2021
467
565
290
Reading thru this thread over at reddit, paints a different picture.

So apple has to allow outside purchases but are within their right to claim commission like sony with cross play? lol not sure this is exactly how epic wanted that to go ;) I wonder how vindictive apple are going to be with the judge ruling in their favour on the breach of contract, will they boot epic's dev account now aswell?
 
  • Thoughtful
Reactions: DJ Shalad

reksveks

Member
Jun 4, 2020
5,198
4,897
425
So apple has to allow outside purchases but are within their right to claim commission like sony with cross play? lol not sure this is exactly how epic wanted that to go ;) I wonder how vindictive apple are going to be with the judge ruling in their favour on the breach of contract, will they boot epic's dev account now aswell?
Legally could for sure, but I am not sure it's smart with bills in congress at the moment
 
  • Like
Reactions: phil_t98