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AMD Should Start Making Gaming PCs Once Zen And Polaris Arrive

Thraktor

Member
Later on this year, AMD is going to release big refreshes to both their CPU and GPU lines, with new architectures (codenamed Zen and Polaris respectively) and a jump to a smaller manufacturing node.

Their CPUs are expected to see the biggest jump in years, as they're completely ditching the Bulldozer architecture that they've had since 2011. The Bulldozer architecture (combined with their manufacturing node lag) have resulted in AMD's CPUs dropping significantly behind Intel's over the past few years, particularly in gaming performance. The new Zen architecture, however, promises to bring substantial performance improvements, and although it's hard to gauge without any actual hardware tests, it's estimated to just about match Ivy Bridge (Intel's 2012 architecture) in terms of IPC (instructions per clock).

While matching a four year old processor might not sound like much, it would actually be quite a big jump for AMD. Intel's desktop chips have only been improving by about 5% a year since then, and even our very own "I Need A New PC" thread extols the virtues of the Intel i5 2500K right in its title, a Sandy Bridge CPU which released a year before Ivy Bridge. While a new architecture and a node shrink might bring AMD into the same ballpark as Intel, the advantage that promises to make AMD's CPUs actually competitive in gaming is the report that they'll initially sell the CPUs without integrated graphics. This means smaller, cheaper dies, which means they should be able to offer decent price/performance ratio in the entry to mid-level market. It's unlikely that they'll provide much competition at the high end, but actually having viable CPUs for gaming PCs at all would be a big enough deal as it is.

On the GPU side of the coin, while architectural improvements are expected to give the cards a bit of a boost, it's really the manufacturing improvement (jumping two nodes from 28nm to 16nm/14nm) that will provide the big jump, allowing them to squeeze more transistors onto a die, reach higher clockspeeds and reduce both power consumption and heat. Nvidia will be getting exactly the same benefits at the same time, but the node shift should jump-start the graphics card market, after 4 years of both companies trying to squeeze what they could out of the 28nm process.

With all this, though, AMD will still have a steep journey ahead of them if they want to regain significant marketshare in the gaming sector. Gamers have been (admittedly justifiably) ignoring their CPUs for years now, and even though they've been broadly competitive with nVidia across most price segments in the graphics card market for the past few years, their market share has done almost nothing but drop.

Basically, AMD has a huge branding problem. Even if they knocked it out of the park with both Zen and Polaris, it would still be a long time before system builders and OEMs start thinking about AMD as their first choice, rather than just an alternative to Intel and nVidia. If AMD really wants to show that there's a big market for their parts in gaming PCs, they should do so directly, by building their own line of console form-factor gaming PCs and selling them directly to customers.

This kind of step from building components to building entire systems isn't rare; Microsoft jumped into building PCs with the Surface line, which has turned out to be a big success for them, both in terms of brand building and the profitability of the product line itself. On a smaller scale, Intel now sells both NUC mini-PCs and Compute Sticks, and both seem to be modest successes.

The success of these kinds of endeavours depend on two criteria: the first is the ability to actually build a solid system in the first place, and the second is a lack of OEMs in the market who would be dissatisfied with a supplier stepping on their toes. The first of these shouldn't be a big hurdle to jump for AMD, they obviously already make the CPUs and GPUs, and the only components that would need any R&D would be the motherboard, cooling system and case (for the first two they should have ample expertise in-house, and for the last they would hire an industrial design firm). The second is basically a given. The console-sized gaming PC market is still small, and is dominated by the Alienware Alpha, which doesn't contain a single AMD component. Even the less popular options for compact gaming PCs are overwhelmingly Intel/nVidia affairs.

The question then becomes, can AMD make gaming PCs that offer better performance than the competition (ie Alienware Alpha) at a similar price? So long as Zen manages to be at least mildly competitive as a gaming CPU, then absolutely. OEMs like Dell have to make certain concessions to make a compact gaming PC, the most important one being the GPU. Compared to the X51, which uses full desktop graphics cards, but pushes the limits of being called "console size", the Alpha instead uses a laptop GPU, which can be soldered directly to the motherboard, bringing the size down substantially. The trade-off for this, though, is that laptop GPUs have much lower performance for the same price than their desktop counterparts. AMD could side-step this issue entirely by soldering full-fat desktop GPUs straight to the motherboard. The case would need to be larger than the Alpha's to accommodate the cooling system, but there's no reason they couldn't keep it smaller than the PS4, even with a high-end 16nm GPU.

In addition to this, AMD have the obvious financial benefit of building the most expensive components themselves. Furthermore, if AMD treat the project as principally a brand building exercise, they could push their own profit margins down (for at least the first few years) to much lower than any OEM could afford. If well-managed by AMD there's no reason to believe they couldn't end up competing on performance per dollar terms with any pre-built gaming PC full stop, let alone console-sized.

Building small gaming PCs is pretty much the only area where AMD have a technical competitive advantage over the rest of the industry. By combining their own desktop CPUs and GPUs on a compact motherboard and slotting it inside a decent looking case they'd have a product that no-one else is offering, and there's no reason they shouldn't be able to find a decent degree of success with it if the price is right. Most importantly, though, they need to start improving their brand image, and if they can place themselves as firmly the first choice in a single market (even one that's currently as small as compact gaming PCs are), then that would provide a sizeable boost to their reputation, which should bleed over into other markets.
 

Durante

Member
Your argument actually makes sense, but I don't fully trust AMD's execution at this point to pull it off. They would also need significant advances in both CPU and GPU power efficiency to rival an Intel/NV SFF build.

It could work out even better for them if the were able to produce a decently high-end HBM-based SoC later on.
 

Mozendo

Member
This post reminded me of Project Quantum.
Has there been any news since the reveal? It'd be great if they'd revisit the concept once Zen and Polaris launches
 

SMattera

Member
It's not branding, it's product quality.

Nvidia offers better cards at fair prices, and has slowly constructed an ecosystem of related services (Shield streaming, G-sync, etc) that make Nvidia cards compelling even at modestly higher prices.

AMD basically ran ATI into the ground. Look at the market share swings in recent years.
 
It's not branding, it's product quality.

Nvidia offers better cards at fair prices, and has slowly constructed an ecosystem of related services (Shield streaming, G-sync, etc) that make Nvidia cards compelling even at modestly higher prices.

AMD basically ran ATI into the ground. Look at the market share swings in recent years.

AMD's quality is fine. You can say drivers are a problem, and they are(poor cpu scaling on dx11). Their main problem has been mind share. I haven't regretted my 290x purchase. It's gotten faster since purchase.

AMD made Nvidia flinch with 970 prices and releasing the 980ti. They haven't made Intel do anything but laugh.
 

Thraktor

Member
Your argument actually makes sense, but I don't fully trust AMD's execution at this point to pull it off.

It could work out even better for them if the were able to produce a decently high-end HBM-based SoC later on.

Yeah, I thought about their APUs, and I suppose they could release a smaller line of APU-powered boxes at a later point (I don't believe their Zen-based SoCs are due until 2017). The issue with a high-end custom APU is that you're sinking a lot of R&D into a system that may or may not be successful. You couldn't really just release it as a socketed part, unless you've got a socket with a 200W TDP to release it for.

In comparison, if you go with separate chips, you have a slightly larger case, but you can use your existing CPUs, your existing GPUs, and preferably design just a single motherboard, a single case and a single cooling system that would accommodate an entire line-up of machines across the performance spectrum (potentially a little tricky on the mobo front with soldered GPUs, but should be possible). Worst case scenario you've got a bunch of motherboards you don't need, but that's a fairly minor loss compared to a custom SoC.
 

SMattera

Member
AMD's quality is fine. You can say drivers are a problem, and they are(poor cpu scaling on dx11). Their main problem has been mind share. I haven't regretted my 290x purchase. It's gotten faster since purchase.

AMD made Nvidia flinch with 970 prices and releasing the 980ti. They haven't made Intel do anything but laugh.

Which AMD card would you recommend over a comparable Nvidia card and why? Only thing I can think of is the R9 380X. Nvidia's products are more compelling at just about every other tier. And again, if you go with AMD you lose out on Shield, G-Sync, GameWorks, etc.

They're closer to Nvidia than they are to Intel, but there's an 80-20 split for a reason.
 

Durante

Member
Yeah, I thought about their APUs, and I suppose they could release a smaller line of APU-powered boxes at a later point (I don't believe their Zen-based SoCs are due until 2017). The issue with a high-end custom APU is that you're sinking a lot of R&D into a system that may or may not be successful. You couldn't really just release it as a socketed part, unless you've got a socket with a 200W TDP to release it for.

In comparison, if you go with separate chips, you have a slightly larger case, but you can use your existing CPUs, your existing GPUs, and preferably design just a single motherboard, a single case and a single cooling system that would accommodate an entire line-up of machines across the performance spectrum (potentially a little tricky on the mobo front with soldered GPUs, but should be possible). Worst case scenario you've got a bunch of motherboards you don't need, but that's a fairly minor loss compared to a custom SoC.

That's true. Still, it must sting supplying all those millions and millions of APUs and not seeing much return on it.
 
Which AMD card would you recommend over a comparable Nvidia card and why? Only thing I can think of is the R9 380X. Nvidia's products are more compelling at just about every other tier. And again, if you go with AMD you lose out on Shield, G-Sync, GameWorks, etc.

They're closer to Nvidia than they are to Intel, but there's an 80-20 split for a reason.

Price performance for one(assuming you have cpu with good single threaded performance). The only tiers that are good for that metric are 970. 980ti is a no brainer over the fury x imo.

You have to pay more for g-sync. My 1440p/144hz free sync monitor ran me 500, the comp g-sync would've ran me around 700.

AMD's draw is price/performance. Popularity =/= the best. Depends on what your parameters are. I'm not getting into this btw.

BTW GW is shit for both vendors.
 
Which AMD card would you recommend over a comparable Nvidia card and why? Only thing I can think of is the R9 380X. Nvidia's products are more compelling at just about every other tier. And again, if you go with AMD you lose out on Shield, G-Sync, GameWorks, etc.

They're closer to Nvidia than they are to Intel, but there's an 80-20 split for a reason.
R9 390 over a 970.
 

bomblord1

Banned
Price performance for one(assuming you have cpu with good single threaded performance). The only tiers that are good for that metric are 970. 980ti is a no brainer over the fury x imo.

You have to pay more for g-sync. My 1440p/144hz free sync monitor ran me 500, the comp g-sync would've ran me around 700.

AMD's draw is price/performance. Popularity =/= the best. Depends on what your parameters are. I'm not getting into this btw.

BTW GW is shit for both vendors.

Adding to this that the R9 Nano beats out the 980 (non ti) in the same price bracket and is a fraction of the size.
 

Bolivar687

Banned
A lot of it depends on the CPUs - their branding will never recover so long as that continues to undermine what the rest of the company has been doing.

With DX12 bringing console-level interoperability and Polaris GPUs aiming for sub-console power efficiency, now seems like a great time to do this. It would make sense to work with Valve to create the go-to Steam machine, as Alienware Alpha users seem to be having lots of problems every time I go into a PC performance thread.
 

The End

Member
The problem is that Intel has been intentionally half-assing it for the last ~4 years while keeping up on their R&D. If Zen is competitive it would be entirely possible for Intel to turn a Xeon E5 into a consumer "i9" chip and just demolish AMD all over again.
 

Atolm

Member
I hope I can make a decent PC on a budget with Zen+Polaris. 600€ tops. Intel & NVidia are getting crazy expensive.
 

Thraktor

Member
That's true. Still, it must sting supplying all those millions and millions of APUs and not seeing much return on it.

Although I'm verging off-topic on my own thread, I'm kind of interested to see what AMD do on the APU front. They (hopefully) finally have a CPU that's passable for gaming, but their integrated graphics are firmly bottlenecked by DDR3/4 bandwidth. They could throw some HBM on there, but is that not just going to push the price well into CPU+dGPU territory? There's no evidence that they've got an eDRAM cache solution a-la Iris Pro, and trying to implement the same in SRAM would probably push the price even up even higher than the HBM.

It'll be a different case when HBM is mature enough to cheaply include in an SoC, and I'm sure at some point it'll be standard for their APUs, but until then they've got to find some other way around the bandwidth roadblock.
 

chaosblade

Unconfirmed Member
Which AMD card would you recommend over a comparable Nvidia card and why? Only thing I can think of is the R9 380X. Nvidia's products are more compelling at just about every other tier. And again, if you go with AMD you lose out on Shield, G-Sync, GameWorks, etc.

They're closer to Nvidia than they are to Intel, but there's an 80-20 split for a reason.

A lot of Nvidia's benefits are probably too expensive for the average user to take advantage of. The only "brand advantage" I've noticed using an Nvidia card after two AMD cards previously is Shadowplay, which has been nice.

The problem is that Intel has been intentionally half-assing it for the last ~4 years while keeping up on their R&D. If Zen is competitive it would be entirely possible for Intel to turn a Xeon E5 into a consumer "i9" chip and just demolish AMD all over again.

How would an "i9" help? Zen won't make any difference on the high end, the i3-i5 range is where it would presumably make a difference. And even if Intel can still swing performance advantages, a solid AMD alternative at a good price could at least improve price/performance. Intel's pricing is going up with each generation of CPUs, so if AMD offers an overclockable i5 competitor at $200 or less, that could definitely take a bite out of Intel's lunch.
 
I'm more interested in their Polaris GPUs than their Zen CPUs, since Pascal is delayed until... indefinitely?

Skylake + Polaris = cool gaming Laptops.

One area Nvidia fails, thus far is keeping their high-end gaming Laptop GPUs cool. Those 980Ms are scorchers.
 

dLMN8R

Member
"You know what would save our business?? Entering a crowded market filled with expensive products that have practically nonexistent profit margins, and high costs associated with customer support, marketing, retail presence, and post-release updates!!"

--said no competent business owner ever
 
Is it ? Where have you read this ?

Ya. I never read this either. Big Pascal using HMB2 will have to wait over AMD's first release of it(HBM2). I'm expecting Nvidia to counter late this year or early next. Hopefully for Nviidia fans, they(Nvidia) have to flinch again.
 

my6765490

Member
After previous efforts by AMD to sell own-branded non-CPU/GPU gaming hardware:

AMD-RAM-Exists-Now-Patriot-Memory-and-VisionTek-Make-It-3.jpg


StorageReview-AMD-Radeon-R7-SSD.jpg


I am not convinced that they can stick the execution of AMD-branded gaming PCs...
 
While I do like the idea of AMD making their own premium brand product like MS did with Surface, I don't see it happening. They'll rather rely on OEM's to make their poor designs and only add AMD chips to the weakest low budget offerings. Maybe with HBM APUs AMD might have a SFF product that could be compelling, but I feel they lack the will to take such risks, and even if SFF builds are cool right now, PC overall just isn't. Even if AMD made the coolest most impressive SFF that trounced the consoles, there's just no money in it. People don't want expensive AMD products to begin with.

What AMD really needs is the get back into enterprise use. That's where the margins are, and Zen servers are the first step towards it. While we gamers don't really like it, Nvidia is correct in doubling down their efforts in HPC and smart cars instead of gaming. VR is the only promising gaming related thing out there, but outside consoles it is at this point a small niche and the margins are low regardless.
 

tuxfool

Banned
Is it ? Where have you read this ?

Ya. I never read this either. Big Pascal using HMB2 will have to wait over AMD's first release of it(HBM2). I'm expecting Nvidia to counter late this year or early next. Hopefully for Nviidia fans, they(Nvidia) have to flinch again.

I made a thread that didn't get a single view. It was outright ignored.

They aren't delayed indefinitely, just don't be surprised when they're not ready for June.
 

chaosblade

Unconfirmed Member
I made a thread that didn't get a single view. It was outright ignored.

They aren't delayed indefinitely, just don't be surprised when they're not ready for June.

I'd imagine a combination of the relatively technical thread title (a more simple title like "Pascal may not hit in June?" would have probably drawn more attention) and the source probably caused it to be ignored.
 
I made a thread that didn't get a single view. It was outright ignored.

I guess the moral of the story is, clickbait titles pay off. While Charlie Demerjian isn't the most trustworthy of sources, I do believe he's right about this thing. People expecting Pascal before AMD's products will be disappointed. So far it looks like AMD will bring out 2 GPUs, a mobile low power chip and a mainstream/lower high end one during the summer, and Nvidia will be at least a quarter late. TSMC doesn't seem to be ready, and GPUs faster than the current high end might only release late this year or even later next year.
 

tuxfool

Banned
I'd imagine a combination of the relatively technical thread title (a more simple title like "Pascal may not hit in June?" would have probably drawn more attention) and the source probably caused it to be ignored.

True. It wasn't the raison d'etre for the article and I don't like resorting to clickbait. The real title is even more incomprehensible.

Strange...

Bumped it for ya.

Thanks. I was wondering when I'd get to insert it somewhere. I just didn't want to go around begging for bumps.
 
So you're saying AMD should sell their own NUC? Like when they teamed up to counter Intel's NUC with the Gigabyte Brix? Yet the NUC had superior processing and integrated GPU performance?

Edit: Not sure if it was the actual GPU dragging the Brix down, or if it were the CPU performance. All I know is it got left in the dust very quickly. But either way, the new Intel NUCs with improved IGP and Thunderbolt 3 external GPU support would kill this with haste.
 

Thraktor

Member
"You know what would save our business?? Entering a crowded market filled with expensive products that have practically nonexistent profit margins, and high costs associated with customer support, marketing, retail presence, and post-release updates!!"

--said no competent business owner ever

Both Microsoft and Intel have successfully and profitably filled niches in the PC industry. The niche that AMD would be filling (console form-factor gaming PCs) is one which:

(a) Has only one prominent brand

and

(b) AMD is uniquely placed to offer a considerably better price/performance ratio than pretty much anyone else.

I'd accept the fact that customer service is going to cost them, but there's no need for retail at launch (maybe if it became more successful), they already produce the necessary post-release chipset and graphics drivers, and they wouldn't need a whole lot of marketing, due to their pre-existing brand recognition (diminished though it may be).

After previous efforts by AMD to sell own-branded non-CPU/GPU gaming hardware:

AMD-RAM-Exists-Now-Patriot-Memory-and-VisionTek-Make-It-3.jpg


StorageReview-AMD-Radeon-R7-SSD.jpg


I am not convinced that they can stick the execution of AMD-branded gaming PCs...

These were just rebadged OEM parts, and rather foolish for AMD to have attempted in the first place. What I'm talking about is a different thing altogether.

So you're saying AMD should sell their own NUC? Like when they teamed up to counter Intel's NUC with the Gigabyte Brix? Yet the NUC had superior processing and integrated GPU performance?

Edit: Not sure if it was the actual GPU dragging the Brix down, or if it were the CPU performance. All I know is it got left in the dust very quickly. But either way, the new Intel NUCs with improved IGP and Thunderbolt 3 external GPU support would kill this with haste.

No, NUCs are micro form-factor PCs with laptop CPUs with IGP. I'm talking about console form-factor PCs with desktop CPUs and desktop GPUs. Unless NUCs get considerably bigger and Nvidia somehow agrees to start providing desktop GPUs to solder on there then there's going to be a pretty big world of difference in performance between the two for gaming.

Regarding external GPUs, they're a solution looking for a problem. I can sort of see the use case with laptops, but they just don't make any sense in a desktop environment. It's both cheaper and considerably simpler for the end-user to just put everything in one case.
 

Crisium

Member
Which AMD card would you recommend over a comparable Nvidia card and why? Only thing I can think of is the R9 380X. Nvidia's products are more compelling at just about every other tier. And again, if you go with AMD you lose out on Shield, G-Sync, GameWorks, etc.

They're closer to Nvidia than they are to Intel, but there's an 80-20 split for a reason.

In terms of price-to-performance and raw performance AMD usually has the edge in the markets below the $650 GTX 980 Ti. Most index of average performance have the 390 > 970 and 380 > 960. But as a caveat, there's the consideration that having more than 3.5+0.5GB of VRAM on the 390 can only help the card moving forward. Likewise for the 960 4GB it usually competes in the same price tier of the 380X which is certainly noticeably faster on average.

Now the cards in between the 390 and 980 Ti all suffer the problem which is basically: either pony up for the 980 Ti or save a lot of money on the 390/970 and only lose a moderate amount of performance. But if you are willing to pay more than what the 390 costs but cannot stretch to the 980 Ti tier then the Fury edges out the 980 for nearly the same price, while the 390X essentially draws even with the 980 for less.

You can see all of this(390>970, 380>960, 380X>>960, Fury > 980, 390X = 980) in indexes of average performance. These are the two most recent I could find from two popular sites.

TechPowerUp: http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Sapphire/R9_390_Nitro/23.html
Sweclockers: http://www.sweclockers.com/test/21303-amd-radeon-r9-380x/16#content

Of course there are other factors at play, as you said. To respond to what you listed: most consumers do not have Shields and will never buy one, inversely you lose out on Freesync if you buy Nvidia, and non-Physx Gameworks features still work on AMD but you risk performance loss. These features can be attractive to some consumers but are usually not the driving force behind the decision - brand is.

Especially here on GAF the 970 is very popular, and there are valid reasons to prefer it over a 390 for certain specific consumers. But the brand power is so strong and I see it so often disproportionly listed in builds that I must wonder if many people in the PC thread add it to their builds almost impulsively and I question how many people are aware that the 390 tends to be faster and doesn't risk running out of VRAM, or that the 960 really loses hard to its competition.

Often the brand name is so strong people reach for Nvidia without second thought, and based on GAF one would think you would have to justify deviating from the norm and buying AMD. In a brand agnostic world it might work like this: justify why one would pay equal for less performance, or sometimes even more money for equal or less performance. One would look at each feature and say I am willing to have lower performance for this. One would say they game so many hours a week that the lower performance is worth the in-game power consumption differences (at idle it's very slight). I'm sure many do, but I'm equally sure many do not and simply see the words Nvidia and GTX.

I believe that in a brand agnostic market it could not be 80-20 because performance-per-dollar and raw performance are serious considerations but many people simply only consider what Nvidia offers. Some would go Nvidia for their features. Some would go Nvidia, at least this generation, for the lower heat while they game. Others would want superior performance and longevity (VRAM, memory capacity, Kepler-Maxwell transition precedent, etc). Even if you are certain that with this in mind it would swing Nvidia, I cannot believe 80-20 with the current price and performance offerings below $650. In many cases the brand name alone sways the user to purchase Nvidia regardless of what AMD has to offer. And a Nvidia only dGPU market should be undesirable for obvious reasons.
 

dLMN8R

Member
Both Microsoft and Intel have successfully and profitably filled niches in the PC industry. The niche that AMD would be filling (console form-factor gaming PCs) is one which:

(a) Has only one prominent brand

and

(b) AMD is uniquely placed to offer a considerably better price/performance ratio than pretty much anyone else.

I'd accept the fact that customer service is going to cost them, but there's no need for retail at launch (maybe if it became more successful), they already produce the necessary post-release chipset and graphics drivers, and they wouldn't need a whole lot of marketing, due to their pre-existing brand recognition (diminished though it may be).

Surface is successful because it invented a product category. And while it's sold well, Microsoft hasn't disclosed how much money they spent in order to get there - money which AMD probably doesn't have.

AMD couldn't afford to do what Microsoft did with Surface. They certainly couldn't afford to do this when they wouldn't be offering any competitive differentiation. Gaming PCs are not some brand new untapped market just waiting for a new entrant to dominate. It's the exact opposite - established players with lots of money to burn to drive out others in order to retain their dominance. And with the enthusiast market eager to build their own PCs, profit margins need to be tiny.

Intel has not said whether NUC has been successful, have they? I highly doubt it's made Intel any significant money, at least. It seems more like a prototype and proof of concept to convince other companies that Clover Trail / Cherry Trail are worthwhile. And Intel also has a boatload of money to sink into this which AMD most certainly does not.

Customer Service is not only expensive, it's difficult. And AMD has never had to do customer service at any sort of scale like PC manufacturers have.

And "retail" doesn't have to mean opening a store. It also simply means having a storefront, inventory, supply chain management, shipping, returns, etc. at a scale and with products they've currently never had to deal with.



In short, no. This is a profoundly terrible idea.
 
According to this, the IPC gains for Zen are higher than originally thought. Also, they say the 8c16t chip has taped out and is prepping for an October launch. Dose of salt and all...

http://wccftech.com/amd-zen-cpu-8-core-summit-ridge-launching-october/



The desktop FX CPUs allegedly feature a 95W TDP and eight high performance Zen cores with multi-threading for a total of 16 threads. Zen is said to have extremely competitive single threaded performance according to engineers with knowledge of the chip. Citing more instructions per clock than Intel’s Broadwell and just a smidgen behind Skylake. The 95W TDP if accurate indicates that indeed we’re looking at a very power efficient design.
 

Thraktor

Member
Surface is successful because it invented a product category. And while it's sold well, Microsoft hasn't disclosed how much money they spent in order to get there - money which AMD probably doesn't have.

[...]

Intel has not said whether NUC has been successful, have they? I highly doubt it's made Intel any significant money, at least. It seems more like a prototype and proof of concept to convince other companies that Clover Trail / Cherry Trail are worthwhile. And Intel also has a boatload of money to sink into this which AMD most certainly does not.

While we don't know revenue or R&D figures for Surface or NUC, we do know that Microsoft and Intel have not only continued selling them, but have expanded their line-ups. They're obviously both successful by whatever internal standards MS and Intel have.

AMD couldn't afford to do what Microsoft did with Surface. They certainly couldn't afford to do this when they wouldn't be offering any competitive differentiation. Gaming PCs are not some brand new untapped market just waiting for a new entrant to dominate. It's the exact opposite - established players with lots of money to burn to drive out others in order to retain their dominance. And with the enthusiast market eager to build their own PCs, profit margins need to be tiny.

As I've repeatedly said, they wouldn't be selling standard desktop gaming PCs, they'd be selling console-size gaming PCs, where they definitely do have a competitive advantage, as the only company who would be able to build PS4-sized gaming PCs with full desktop parts. Anyone else who wants to build a gaming PC that small has to use laptop GPUs, which are massively more expensive than their desktop counterparts.

Customer Service is not only expensive, it's difficult. And AMD has never had to do customer service at any sort of scale like PC manufacturers have.

And "retail" doesn't have to mean opening a store. It also simply means having a storefront, inventory, supply chain management, shipping, returns, etc. at a scale and with products they've currently never had to deal with.

Retail and customer service can also be outsourced. Partnering with an existing online retailer can give them the expertise they need and keep things scalable and low-risk.

Besides, it would hardly need to be the most sophisticated online retail operation around. Their main competitors offer BTO services with 1 week plus lead time. AMD would be selling prebuilt machines, so (assuming an initial NA only launch) they could ship from a single warehouse throughout US and Canada and still get hardware in people's hands quicker than Dell does. They would only need three models (let's say a dual-core CPU with a 470X, a quad-core with a 480X and a hex-core with a 490X, or however they organise things), and let's say two storage options for each of them. That's a grand total of six SKUs in a single warehouse, plus potentially a small number of accessories. Not exactly a challenging job for whoever's in charge of logistics.
 
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