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AMD hardware will support Directx 12 features (inc. Xbox Series X)

AphexTwunt

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The comic relief from this forum is welcomed in these 'uncertain times'....

The salt and stages of grief are palpable.
 

LazyParrot

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The trigger argument is : ethomaz ethomaz ethomaz ethomaz claims Microsoft has nothing to do with RDNA 2.
I know. He may be wrong, but so is your claim that RDNA was designed "before the Sony engagement". AMD may have gotten started on it before Sony got involved, but the fact that it includes specific optimizations made for Sony shows that they were very much a part of the design process.
 
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ethomaz

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I know. He may be wrong, but so is your claim that RDNA was designed "before the Sony engagement". AMD may have gotten started on it before Sony got involved, but the fact that it includes specific optimizations made for Sony shows that they were very much a part of the design process.
AMD co-developer DXR 1.1 with Microsoft... basically AMD helped MS to support their RDNA 2.0 with DXR 1.1.
RDNA 2.0 is AMD research and development... no MS cooperation here.
 
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rnlval

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This is great but doesn't contradict what i said:
MS & NVIDIA/AMD work together to shape DX and define features to include in their new architectures
MS however is not involved in the development of AMD/NVIDIA micro-architectures

They work together to define features for Turing/RDNA2 and shape DX but MS is not involved in the actual micro architecture design beyond that.
Not just API, but also includes directing hardware design bias to improve certain major 3D game engines e.g. Gears 5 is picked for XSX just like Gears 4 for X1X .

RDNA wasn't the 1st AMD GPU with lower latencies as a goal i.e. refer to X1X R&D design goals.

XSX pattern is another X1X like re-run.

Sony has its own needs e.g. cache-related changes which I recall back in Hawaii GCN and PS4 era.

My argument was NOT about microarchitecture design work.
 

ethomaz

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Notice "based on that hardware's own wavefront/warp width which is concealed". There's a direct relationship between software and hardware.
The software optimize for what the hardware have... true.

DX12 is optimized to the architecture found in all vendor hardware.

That is the core goal of an API.
 
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ethomaz

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I'm not late.
So why you posted a January article that is obvious dated lol


That's BS. AMD's RDNA 2 hardware design has to cooperate with MS's API direction and certain popular 3D game engines.
False again.

AMD created RDNA 2.0.
AMD helped MS to add support to RDNA 2.0 in their DXR API.

Bullshitr are the misinformation you are trying to spread here lol

Do some research first or ask somebody that knows it.
 
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ethomaz

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ethomaz

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You missed MS's large scale game software profiling given to AMD during X1X R&D phase. Many MS 1st party games are powered by Unreal Engine 4.
Weird coincidence by all new titles in Unreal Engine 4 are being announced exclusive to PS5.

Why?
 

ethomaz

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RDNA changed the wave length to better fit with gaming workloads. It's a two-way street and meeting somewhere in the middle but Nvidia is dominant.
Yes optimization for better efficiency.
That is unrelated to APIs thought.
APIs has to update to support the changes way from RDNA.

See hardware changed and APIs receives updates to support these changes.

Not the opposite.

BTW that RDNA change is unrelated to nVidia... their architecture are way different and the workload doesn’t spread via waves like GCN and RDNA.
 
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SonGoku

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My argument was NOT about microarchitecture design work.
Ok then i agree
Not just API, but also includes directing hardware design bias to improve certain major 3D game engines e.g. Gears 5 is picked for XSX just like Gears 4 for X1X .
This isn't unique to MS. As you said Sony has their own priorities/needs or bias that they want AMD to implement: Sony worked with AMD to incorporate platform specific features/optimizations and if some of their concepts are useful to more than just the PS5 AMD incorporates them on discrete cards.
 

rnlval

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So why you posted a January article that is obvious dated lol

False again.

AMD created RDNA 2.0.
AMD helped MS to add support to RDNA 2.0 in their DXR API.

Bullshitr are the misinformation you are trying to spread here lol

Do some research first or ask somebody that knows it.
FACT Vulkan is late as of January 15, 2020 . You posted Vulkan press release around March 2020.

AMD filled their BVH RT patent in December 2017 which is too late for March GDC 2018's DXR/RTX (BVH RT) demo.

AMD's RDNA 2 R&D has to cooperate with MS's kingmaker selection. AMD is late. Deal with it.

The real bullshit comes from you.
 
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ethomaz

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Ok then i agree

This isn't unique to MS. As you said Sony has their own priorities/needs or bias that they want AMD to implement: Sony worked with AMD to incorporate platform specific features/optimizations and if some of their concepts are useful to more than just the PS5 AMD incorporates them on discrete cards.
Actually the semi-custom silicon business works that way.

- Customer choose the modules their API will have with all AMD available tech.
- Customer can ask AMD to develop some new feature or module.
- The new AMD developed feature/module is AMD own tech.
- AMD can use it to their own GPU if they think it is good.

That happened with Sony and the IDBuffer... IDBuffer is an AMD property.

Customer feedback and request improves the AMD GPU tech.
 
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ethomaz

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FACT Vulkan is late as of January 15, 2020 . You posted Vulkan press release around March 2020.

AMD filled their BVH RT patent in December 2017 which is too late for March GDC 2018's DXR/RTX (BVH RT) demo.

AMD's RDNA 2 R&D has to cooperate with MS's kingmaker selection. AMD is late. Deal with it.

The real bullshit comes from you.
AMD is indeed late.

Vulkan not... they are early already supporting RT tech in GPUs to be launched yet.
Vulkan already supported nVidia RTX since release too.
 
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rnlval

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Yes optimization for better efficiency.
That is unrelated to APIs thought.
APIs has to update to support the changes way from RDNA.

See hardware changed and APIs receives updates to support these changes.

Not the opposite.

BTW that RDNA change is unrelated to nVidia... their architecture are way different and the workload doesn’t spread via waves like GCN and RDNA.
Changes to RDNA are influenced by NVIDIA (it's called market pressure) and the quest for lower latency stems from X1X R&D era.
 
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ethomaz

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Changes to RDNA are influenced by NVIDIA (it's called market pressure) and the quest for lower latency stems from X1X R&D era.
And nVidia changes are influenced by little Casper.

:messenger_tears_of_joy: :messenger_tears_of_joy: :messenger_tears_of_joy:

I remember when Radeon was the leader in tech... they did change to Unifieds Shaders influencies by nVidia false, they not lol.
 
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Tripolygon

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VRS changes shading resolution instead.
Oversimplified Graphics Rendering 101

Full disclaimer, I am not a game developer I've just been around game developers and programmers, I have friends and family who are software engineers and I've been around these forums long enough to pick up a pedestrian understanding in some of these things.

Before you see a single pixel on a screen, it goes through various render stages who's order depends on what type of rendering you are doing. Deferred or Forward rendering.

Lets go with Deferred rendering.

In a deferred rending, you have various stages aka passes that give you descriptions for different things. In 1 pass, you can get information on how shiny something is, the color, depth, light. Example below


These are stored in different buffers. You have the G-buffer, Z-buffer etc. What goes in G-buffer depends on the game engine and it can be any of the various information from the above. Z-buffer contains depth information and the ID-buffer is just a map that keeps track of each pixel so you can track them. It can be used for various things. This is why PS4 Pro GPU has a Sony specific hardware feature to do this with little cost.

All these stages are combined together to give you the final render which is sent out to your screen. Any of the stages above can have any resolution that is different from the final output resolution. This is what that Eurogamer article you quoted is talking about.

This is a totally different thing to variable rate shading.
 
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rnlval

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AMD is indeed late.

Vulkan not... they are early already supporting RT tech in GPUs to be launched yet.
Vulkan already supported nVidia RTX since release too.
NVIDIA introduced vendor extensions to Vulkan around October 2018.

NVIDIA/MS already demo'ed DXR/RTX during GDC March 2018, hence MS and NVIDIA were already working together on DXR before GDC March 2018.
 
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rnlval

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Oversimplified Graphics Rendering 101

Full disclaimer, I am not a game developer I've just been around game developers and programmers, I have friends and family who are software engineers and I've been around these forums long enough to pick up a pedestrian understanding in some of these things.

Before you see a single pixel on a screen, it goes through various render stages who's order depends on what type of rendering you are doing. Deferred or Forward rendering.

Lets go with Deferred rendering.

In a deferred rending, you have various stages aka passes that give you descriptions for different things. In 1 pass, you can get information on how shiny something is, the color, depth, light. In another pass you can get


These are stored in different buffers. You have the G-buffer, Z-buffer etc. What goes in G-buffer depends on the game engine it can be any of the various information from the above. Z-buffer contains depth information and the ID-buffer is just a map that keeps track of each pixel so you can track them. It can be used for various things. This is why PS4 Pro GPU has a Sony specific hardware feature to do this with little cost.

All these stages are combined together to give you the final render which is sent out to your screen. Any of the stages above can have any resolution that is different from the final output resolution.

This is a totally different thing to variable rate shading.
You missed the conservation of resource goals. Both XSX's custom and VRS has similar goals to conserve GPU resources.

VRS is changing shader resolution which lessens the render load.
X1X's version has a native resolution depth buffer with different resolution for the color buffer which lessens the render load.
Net result: both methods are not rendering at native resolution.
 
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Tripolygon

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You missed the conservation of resource goals. Both XSX's custom and VRS has similar goals to conserve GPU resources.

VRS is changing shader resolution which lessens the render load.
X1X's version has a native resolution depth buffer with different resolution for the color buffer which lessens the render load.
Net result: both methods are not rendering at native resolution.
You are not interested in learning anything, you just want to argue using words that you think means something that you have't a clue what they actually mean.

One plus one equals super resolution machine learning reduce depth buffer, color buffer which reduces render load.

Net result: both methods are not rendering at same resolution.

Its gibberish.
 

yurinka

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You mean half of the reveal talking about 3D Audio which is also present on Xbox Series X, called Spatial Audio. Xbox had Spatial Audio in Xbox One X, but it was a purely software, now they have a dedicated audio chip, also apart from their own Windows Sonic they will also support Dolby Atmos and DTS:X. And theres also Audio Ray Tracing(Sony barely mentioned it in the Wired article and Cerny Reveal) and Project Acoustics.
They promoted a feature that is more mature on the other platform.
PS5 and 3D audio are very different cases. Sony had to explain their 3D audio system because it's something innovative, new and different compared to the previously known, more limited stuff that mostly only implemented some standard audio system like Dolby etc., so he explained what it does, that saves CPU work because it has a dedicated hardware, their approach with the user profiles, speaker types supported, etc.

Regarding RT he just mentioned it uses the standard RDNA 2.0 hardware and features, so didn't need to explain anything because people already knows what it is and how it works. It was already a 1 hour long GDC talk so he focused on explaining devs the PS5 hardware architecture instead of making it too long with trailers.

For sure, somewhere in the future there will be another reveal(s) focusing players where you'll have your game trailers, tech demos, form factor, etc.
 
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Of course, they will be the same, just called something different. Mesh shaders and VRS against Geomtery engine .......whatever the hell the api is called. in the Sony API, DX12 API, Vulkan API whatever Its all the same shit lol.

Do you think Vulkan / MS / Sony wont write drivers to control the AMD hardware ? some of the names are nice sounding though...its called marketing.
Exactly.

When Sony starts BS'ing with their code name stuff like "Geometry Engine" and Tempest Audio Engine" you know Sony is behind the 8-ball. They did this with PS2 as well with Emotion Engine and Graphics Synthesizer, and then additional code name PR like Cell and SPE during PS3.

PS2 era was the best. Sony promotes PS2 like it's got NASA parts and Xbox comes around the next year with a Celeron cpu and more ram. Games looked much better at better frame rates. No code names at all.

When one of their systems has a clear power win (PS4 OG), notice how there's no fancy code lingo to be found. They just promote a system with the most TF and GDDR5 ram.
 
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geordiemp

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Exactly.

When Sony starts BS'ing with their code name stuff like "Geometry Engine" and Tempest Audio Engine" you know Sony is behind the 8-ball. They did this with PS2 as well with Emotion Engine and Graphics Synthesizer, and then additional code name PR like Cell and SPE during PS3.

PS2 era was the best. Sony promotes PS2 like it's got NASA parts and Xbox comes around the next year with a Celeron cpu and more ram. Games looked much better at better frame rates. No code names at all.

When one of their systems has a clear power win (PS4 OG), notice how there's no fancy code lingo to be found. They just promote a system with the most TF and GDDR5 ram.

I think Geometry engine is AMDs name for it I read somewhere so...

Dont think it matters.
 
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ethomaz

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Exactly.

When Sony starts BS'ing with their code name stuff like "Geometry Engine" and Tempest Audio Engine" you know Sony is behind the 8-ball. They did this with PS2 as well with Emotion Engine and Graphics Synthesizer, and then additional code name PR like Cell and SPE during PS3.

PS2 era was the best. Sony promotes PS2 like it's got NASA parts and Xbox comes around the next year with a Celeron cpu and more ram. Games looked much better at better frame rates. No code names at all.

When one of their systems has a clear power win (PS4 OG), notice how there's no fancy code lingo to be found. They just promote a system with the most TF and GDDR5 ram.
Geometry Engine are AMD name.
C’mon.
 
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mmorg

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Last time Directx 12 was all the talk for Xbox. Yeah it helped really much. We are the devs and we decide what is better than the other which isnt even out yet. Good thread, wrong userbase. Everyone seems chill, having fun. Like me
 

rnlval

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I know. He may be wrong, but so is your claim that RDNA was designed "before the Sony engagement". AMD may have gotten started on it before Sony got involved, but the fact that it includes specific optimizations made for Sony shows that they were very much a part of the design process.
What did news articles such as https://segmentnext.com/2018/06/13/amd-navi-sony-playstation-5/ claims?

If AMD Navi has been designed for Sony, then it is possible that the company has cut a deal that keeps AMD from supplying Microsoft with the same tech
 

rnlval

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PS5 and 3D audio are very different cases. Sony had to explain their 3D audio system because it's something innovative, new and different compared to the previously known, more limited stuff that mostly only implemented some standard audio system like Dolby etc., so he explained what it does, that saves CPU work because it has a dedicated hardware, their approach with the user profiles, speaker types supported, etc.

Regarding RT he just mentioned it uses the standard RDNA 2.0 hardware and features, so didn't need to explain anything because people already knows what it is and how it works. It was already a 1 hour long GDC talk so he focused on explaining devs the PS5 hardware architecture instead of making it too long with trailers.

For sure, somewhere in the future there will be another reveal(s) focusing players where you'll have your game trailers, tech demos, form factor, etc.
https://news.xbox.com/en-us/2020/03/16/xbox-series-x-glossary/

Project Acoustics – Incubated over a decade by Microsoft Research, Project Acoustics accurately models sound propagation physics in mixed reality and games, employed by many AAA experiences today. It is unique in simulating wave effects like diffraction in complex scene geometries without straining CPU, enabling a much more immersive and lifelike auditory experience. Plug-in support for both the Unity and Unreal game engines empower the sound designer with expressive controls to mold reality. Developers will be able to easily leverage Project Acoustics with Xbox Series X through the addition of a new custom audio hardware block.

MS also wasted money and resources on a new custom audio hardware block for XSX. #metoo
 

rnlval

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You are not interested in learning anything, you just want to argue using words that you think means something that you have't a clue what they actually mean.

One plus one equals super resolution machine learning reduce depth buffer, color buffer which reduces render load.

Net result: both methods are not rendering at same resolution.

Its gibberish.
That's gibberish. Hypocrite.
 
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Redefine07

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Yea big leap to what ? Games are the most important factor MS dosen't have any game or soul to put in their games. PC is and will be the future and PS5 ofc.PS5 will use some tricks stay chill like PS4 PRO did and worked pretty well in the good hands only fail R* didn't know how to use it with that shitty RDR2 on PRO , I played it in 1080p mode but now I have the 4kaka edition on One X.