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AMD hardware will support Directx 12 features (inc. Xbox Series X)

jonnyp

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I predicted they would turn to VRS and other specific GPU features once they were proven wrong about PS5 GPU not being based on RDNA2 architecture. Once it's revealed that the PS5 graphics API supports all the same GPU features as the competition, they will find something new to ruin every thread with or just go back to shouting "9.2 TFLOOOOOOPS sustaaaaained" in every thread.
 
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It appears from what I can tell that AMDs RDNA 2 support of Variable Rate Shading, Mesh Shading and Sampler Feedback is only available via Direct X API. Unless you are using Direct X, you dont have access to those features.

So it looks like as Sony wont have access to Direct X, the PS5 is going to lack some absolute key features.

"AMD today announced in the form of a blog post that its upcoming graphics cards based on RDNA 2 architecture will feature support for Microsoft's latest DirectX 12 Ultimate API. "With this architecture powering both the next generation of AMD Radeon graphics cards and the forthcoming Xbox Series X gaming console, we've been working very closely with Microsoft to help move gaming graphics to a new level of photorealism and smoothness thanks to the four key DirectX 12 Ultimate graphics features -- DirectX Raytracing (DXR), Variable Rate Shading (VRS), Mesh Shaders, and Sampler Feedback." - said AMD in the blog.

Reportedly, Microsoft and AMD have worked closely to enable this feature set and provide the best possible support for RDNA 2 based hardware, meaning that future GPUs and consoles are getting the best possible integration of the new API standard."

Thats a massive leg up for Xbox.
This post is the stupidest ive seen in neogaf ever. You dont need dx12 to have those features, they are simply buzz words, mesh shading and vrs are already available in nvidia gpus already and other apis, microsoft dont have a monopoly in those technologies.
 
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hyperbertha

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You couldn't be more wrong here. 60fps or well above 30fps at pc quality ultra settings is the fight
For one, we don't yet know if Sony is going to use their version of VRS etc. And secondly, I'll have to disagree. !080p 60 fps will already be easily achievable at 10 +TF. Why do you think modern GPU's are called 4k machines? 1080p is easy for them (Ultra settings or not), and while its still a struggle to do 4k 60 fps, resolution isn't what its going to be about this gen.

A lot of 'ultra' settings on pc depend on memory limits, and as someone who's played a lot of pc games, I can tell you AA, resolution and post processing is what truly affects framerates. Most of the actual settings were bottlenecked more by memory than compute powers, which is what the SSD will address. This will result in vastly improved visuals.
 

yurinka

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Why would PS5 use Vulcan? it would be a downgrade more overhead and less features . PS5 API will be designed around its GPU feature set (custom RDNA2) with as low level access as possible to reduce overhead to the minimum.
I mentioned some random APIs as example to say that Sony may decide to allow there any api they decide to include, my idea wasn't to list them as highly possible candidates or the best fit.

For sure, they will include their custom API to take advantage of its Zen 2 + RDNA 2 + custom stuff, and even allow devs to code to the metal. But if possible it would be nice to provide 3rd party devs also support other more standard, multiplatform API (+ an extension/wrappers for PS5 custom stuff) to ease porting/multiplatform games, specially the ones made with custom (non UE/Unity/etc) engines.
 
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Ascend

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It appears from what I can tell that AMDs RDNA 2 support of Variable Rate Shading, Mesh Shading and Sampler Feedback is only available via Direct X API. Unless you are using Direct X, you dont have access to those features.
That is simply not true. You can do everything DX can do with Vulkan for example. It just takes a bit more work. Hardware is not closed off in a way to only allow certain APIs to work with them.
 

ethomaz

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ethomaz

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Nvidia only supports Vulkan and Direct X for Ray Tracing.

AMD only supports Direct X at this point.

And no, you need the GPU to support your API. That is why Nvidia and AMD list which APIs are supported.
False again.

API support the hardware... not the opposite lol

And yes OpenGL support RTX ray-tracing.

C’mon.
 
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ethomaz

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Thread title - AMD GPUs to suppot DX12U.
Actual thred - PS5 vs XBX...
Actually the thread title is a bit wrong.

It is the software that supports the hardware... hardware come first.

“DX12U support AMD GPUs” - Correct.
 

SonGoku

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You misunderstand me, I didnt say AMD would give control over their IP to Microsoft. I was saying that you cant make up an API called SonGuku API and use it on a graphics card without either Nvidia or AMD supporting it.
All the hardware features present on RDNA2 can be exploited with a API designed to do it, PS5 will have its own API designed to take advantage of RDNA2 features and more (customizations)
So what makes you think Sony will have any trouble getting AMDs "permission" to use RDNA2 hw features to its fullest?
 
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rnlval

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MS has nothing to do with RDNA 2 development.
False.

AMD: we’re pleased to announce that in partnership with Microsoft we will provide full support for DirectX 12 Ultimate in our upcoming AMD RDNA 2 gaming architecture


Microsoft and AMD worked closely on the development of the DirectX 12 Ultimate feature set to ensure a great experience with AMD RDNA 2 architecture”

– Bryan Langley, Graphics Group Program Manager, Microsoft
 
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BattleScar

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And looking at BC, software is not Sony's strength.

What does backwards compatibility have to do with software development tools and API's? Have you personally worked with the PS5 SDK to know this?

False.

AMD: we’re pleased to announce that in partnership with Microsoft we will provide full support for DirectX 12 Ultimate in our upcoming AMD RDNA 2 gaming architecture
Based on what evidence has Microsoft been involved with the development of the RDNA2 microarchitecture?

DX12 Ultimate is an API. Has absolutely jack shit to do with microarchitecture. Unless you also believe that Microsoft had a hand in developing Nvidia's Turing uArch, which also supports DX12 Ultimate.
 
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ethomaz

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False.

AMD: we’re pleased to announce that in partnership with Microsoft we will provide full support for DirectX 12 Ultimate in our upcoming AMD RDNA 2 gaming architecture


Microsoft and AMD worked closely on the development of the DirectX 12 Ultimate feature set to ensure a great experience with AMD RDNA 2 architecture”

– Bryan Langley, Graphics Group Program Manager, Microsoft
Again MS has nothing to do with RDNA 2 development.

AMD helped MS in DXR 1.1 development (part of DX12U).

That is what your link says.
 
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ethomaz

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Wrong, hardware needs to be profile against well-known game engines such as Unreal Engine 4. AMD is not a market leader in GPUs.

Hint: wave32.
You are again wrong.

Hardware are made with its specifications which are choose by hardware vendors.
APIs supports the hardware.

MS did nothing to RDNA or RDNA 2.0.

AMD helped MS develop the API to support RDNA 2.0.

Engine is a new level of abstraction so let's not enter in that territory... Engines uses APIs.
 
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rnlval

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Again MS has nothing to do with RDNA 2 development.

AMD helped MS in DXR 1.1 development (part of DX12U).

That is what your link says.
BVH RT is a major component of RDNA 2. LOL

Variable-rate shading patent is owned by MS.
 
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ethomaz

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BVH RT is a major component of RDNA 2. LOL

Variable-rate shading patent is owned by MS.
Yes.

That is why MS asked help to develop the DXR 1.1 to support RDNA 2.0.

But you know who MS asked help too? nVidia when they coded DXR 1.0 to support RTX from Turing.

That patent is only how about in software MS did to use VRS in already existent in hardware.
It is an software patent.
OpenGL has it software implementation to use VRS.
Vulkan has it software implementation to use VRS.
Sony will have it own software implementation to use VRS.

BTW that is the AMD patent for the implementation on hardware of Variable Rate Shading:

nVidia has it own patent for Variable Rate Shading.
 
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rnlval

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You are again wrong.

Hardware are made with its specifications which are choose by hardware vendors.
APIs supports the hardware.

MS did nothing to RDNA or RDNA 2.0.

AMD helped MS develop the API to support RDNA 2.0.
You didn't factor in X1X's development cycle with hardware being profiled against well known 3d engines e.g. improve tessellation, improve geometry input per cycle. Guess who which GPU company keeps hammering AMD on geometry power?

GCN doesn't support Shader Model 6's wave32. Who is the dominant GPU with MS Shader Model 6 wave32?
 
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ethomaz

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You didn't factor in X1X's development cycle with hardware being profiled against well known 3d engines e.g. improve tessellation, improve geometry input per cycle. Guess who which GPU company keeps hammering AMD on geometry power?

GCN doesn't support Shader Model 6's wave32. Who is the dominant GPU with MS Shader Model 6 wave32?
Dude AMD already changed the waves in RDNA and it was for better power efficiency.
Nothing related to Shader Model 6's wave32 in MS API (GCN supports Shader Model 6's wave32 btw),
It is not related to RDNA 2.0.

You are confusing again software with hardware.

The Shader Model 6's wave32 is software and not related with how the hardware to waves inside the workload.
 
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Tripolygon

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BVH RT is a major component of RDNA 2. LOL

Variable-rate shading patent is owned by MS.
Scroll down to the end of the page in that patent and look at the list of cited patents and the companies associated with them. They are all patents for similar things but different implementations. SMH
 

SonGoku

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For sure, they will include their custom API to take advantage of its Zen 2 + RDNA 2 + custom stuff, and even allow devs to code to the metal. But if possible it would be nice to provide 3rd party devs also support other more standard, multiplatform API (+ an extension/wrappers for PS5 custom stuff) to ease porting/multiplatform games, specially the ones made with custom (non UE/Unity/etc) engines.
PS4 already did this, it provided 2 APIs:
1. GNM Lowest level access, more control.
2. GNMX Familiar API (similar to DX11) with more overhead, less control and more automation

The first one is mostly used by bigger studios (AAA devs) the second by smaller teams (indies).
 
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rnlval

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Yes.

That is why MS asked help to develop the DXR 1.1 to support RDNA 2.0.

But you know who MS asked help too? nVidia when they coded DXR 1.0 to support RTX from Turing.

That patent is only how about in software MS did to use VRS in already existent in hardware.
It is an software patent.
OpenGL has it software implementation to use VRS.
Vulkan has it software implementation to use VRS.
Sony will have it own software implementation to use VRS.

BTW that is the AMD patent for the implementation on hardware of Variable Rate Shading:

nVidia has it own patent for Variable Rate Shading.
Your argument doesn't prove independent RDNA 2 R&D from MS


1. Turing RTX already supports DXR Tier 1.1.

2. https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=vulkan-12-release&num=1
Date, January 15, 2020

Having no big surprises out of Vulkan 1.2 is part of The Khronos Group's intent with first routing new functionality through extensions in point releases in order to garner greater developer feedback from all parties involved. Looking ahead though there is a lot on the table past Vulkan 1.2. Items still being evaluated by the Vulkan Working Group include machine learning, more ray-tracing beyond the NVIDIA extension previously introduced, video encode/decode, variable rate shading, and mesh shaders. Vulkan video encode/decode was one of the items I asked about with recall it previously being on the table for 2020 -- it's still in the works but nothing new to share today.


From January 15, 2020, Vulkan API is late!
 
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ethomaz

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Your argument doesn't prove independent RDNA 2 R&D from MS


1. Turing already supports DXR Tier 1.1.

2. https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=vulkan-12-release&num=1
Date, January 15, 2020

Having no big surprises out of Vulkan 1.2 is part of The Khronos Group's intent with first routing new functionality through extensions in point releases in order to garner greater developer feedback from all parties involved. Looking ahead though there is a lot on the table past Vulkan 1.2. Items still being evaluated by the Vulkan Working Group include machine learning, more ray-tracing beyond the NVIDIA extension previously introduced, video encode/decode, variable rate shading, and mesh shaders. Vulkan video encode/decode was one of the items I asked about with recall it previously being on the table for 2020 -- it's still in the works but nothing new to share today.


From January 15, 2020, Vulkan API is late!
Of course it supports.... DXR 1.1 has everything developed in DXR 1.0 lol

Yeap Vulkan is waiting RDNA 2.0 from AMD to implement these features for AMD... it is already has everything implemented for nVidia.
Same for OpenGL.

And they were not late ;)



The beta drivers to supporting Ray-tracing to all vendors are already shipped.
Yes it supports Ray-tracing to AMD with all GCN cards, RDNA and RDNA 2.0 with hardware acceleration.
It is from early March.
* nVidia was already supported via extension now it is generic to any GPU vendor.

You need to update your sources.

BTW a bit comparison.



It offer more features than DXR 1.1.
Better yet you can use MS's HLSL with Vulkan Ray-tracking.

For these that are interested you can read more here:
 
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rnlval

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Scroll down to the end of the page in that patent and look at the list of cited patents and the companies associated with them. They are all patents for similar things but different implementations. SMH
X1X already has "Variable Rate Shading" like feature. https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2017-the-scorpio-engine-in-depth

Andrew Goossen tells us that the GPU supports extensions that allow depth and ID buffers to be efficiently rendered at full native resolution, while colour buffers can be rendered at half resolution with full pixel shader efficiency. Based on conversations last year with Mark Cerny, there is some commonality in approach here with some of the aspects of PlayStation 4 Pro's design, but we can expect some variation in customisations - despite both working with AMD, we're reliably informed that neither Sony or Microsoft are at all aware of each other's designs before they are publicly unveiled.
------
 

SonGoku

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Microsoft and AMD worked closely on the development of the DirectX 12 Ultimate feature set to ensure a great experience with AMD RDNA 2 architecture”
– Bryan Langley, Graphics Group Program Manager, Microsoft
Yeah man that's just how it goes. AMD/Nvidia work with MS to shape the next DX API and viceversa to define standard set of features to include in their upcoming GPU architectures.
MS does not have involvement in the development of AMD/NVIDIA micro architectures however.

Remember DX10.1? AMD had more hw features than nvidia back then but DX wasn't fully exploiting those because they'd leave out a majority of the market (nvidia), that's why its important for GPU manufacturers work with MS to include the features that will be used and not waste any silicon in features that won't be used.
 

Tripolygon

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Your argument doesn't prove independent RDNA 2 R&D from MS


1. Turing RTX already supports DXR Tier 1.1.

2. https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=vulkan-12-release&num=1
Date, January 15, 2020

Having no big surprises out of Vulkan 1.2 is part of The Khronos Group's intent with first routing new functionality through extensions in point releases in order to garner greater developer feedback from all parties involved. Looking ahead though there is a lot on the table past Vulkan 1.2. Items still being evaluated by the Vulkan Working Group include machine learning, more ray-tracing beyond the NVIDIA extension previously introduced, video encode/decode, variable rate shading, and mesh shaders. Vulkan video encode/decode was one of the items I asked about with recall it previously being on the table for 2020 -- it's still in the works but nothing new to share today.


From January 15, 2020, Vulkan API is late!
Here's a thought, the first game that used Mesh Shading was a Vulkan game. Just because they are evaluating something does not mean it is not supported. People are free to add extensions to Vulkan to support hardware features, the Vulkan group then evaluates if they want to adapt those features and make them non vendor specific and put them "officially" which means proper documentation and making sure it works on Intel, AMD and Nvidia hardware.
 

ethomaz

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I forget to post that.
The blue bar are the main supporters of Vulkan... Sony is there ;)

 
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rnlval

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Of course it supports.... DXR 1.1 has everything developed in DXR 1.0 lol

Yeap Vulkan is waiting RDNA 2.0 from AMD to implement these features for AMD... it is already has everything implemented for nVidia.
Same for OpenGL.

And they were not late ;)



The beta drivers to supporting Ray-tracing to all vendors are already shipped.
Yes it supports Ray-tracing to AMD with all GCN cards, RDNA and RDNA 2.0 with hardware acceleration.
It is from early March.
* nVidia was already supported via extension now it is generic to any GPU vendor.

You need to update your sources.

BTW a bit comparison.



It offer more features than DXR 1.1.
Red herring argument. That announcement was after January 15, 2020 i.e. sometime in early March 2020
 

Tripolygon

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Wrong, for Xbox One X, AMD and MS worked together for an early VRS like solution instead of Sony's checkerboard solution in PS4 Pro!
Are you daft or something. You posted a Microsoft patent, in the same Microsoft patent, Microsoft says look at other companies doing something similar (patents cited) but ours is a different implementation. Intel, AMD, Nvidia, Sony, Qualcom, Samsung and the list goes on and on all have different implementations of Variable Rate Shading that is why Microsoft themselves cite them in their own patent.

But no you are mistaken, Xbox One X does not have VRS. What you quoted is not what VRS is. It is literally how games are made where certain buffers and passes are rendered at different resolutions.
 
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rnlval

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Yeah man that's just how it goes. AMD/Nvidia work with MS to shape the next DX API and viceversa to define standard set of features to include in their upcoming GPU architectures.
MS does not have involvement in the development of AMD/NVIDIA micro architectures however.

Remember DX10.1? AMD had more hw features than nvidia back then but DX wasn't fully exploiting those because they'd leave out a majority of the market (nvidia), that's why its important for GPU manufacturers work with MS to include the features that will be used and not waste any silicon in features that won't be used.
You missed MS's large scale game software profiling given to AMD during X1X R&D phase. Many MS 1st party games are powered by Unreal Engine 4.
 

rnlval

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Are you daft or something. You posted a Microsoft patent, in the same Microsoft patent, Microsft says look at other companies doing something similar (patents cited) but ours is a different implementation.
Red herring.

X1X already has "Variable Rate Shading" like feature. https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2017-the-scorpio-engine-in-depth

Andrew Goossen tells us that the GPU supports extensions that allow depth and ID buffers to be efficiently rendered at full native resolution, while colour buffers can be rendered at half resolution with full pixel shader efficiency. Based on conversations last year with Mark Cerny, there is some commonality in approach here with some of the aspects of PlayStation 4 Pro's design, but we can expect some variation in customisations - despite both working with AMD, we're reliably informed that neither Sony or Microsoft are at all aware of each other's designs before they are publicly unveiled.
------
That's during X1X's R&D.

Deal with it.
 

Tripolygon

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Red herring.

X1X already has "Variable Rate Shading" like feature. https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2017-the-scorpio-engine-in-depth

Andrew Goossen tells us that the GPU supports extensions that allow depth and ID buffers to be efficiently rendered at full native resolution, while colour buffers can be rendered at half resolution with full pixel shader efficiency. Based on conversations last year with Mark Cerny, there is some commonality in approach here with some of the aspects of PlayStation 4 Pro's design, but we can expect some variation in customisations - despite both working with AMD, we're reliably informed that neither Sony or Microsoft are at all aware of each other's designs before they are publicly unveiled.
------
That's during X1X's R&D.

Deal with it.
Xbox One X does not support VRS. You people are just unbelievable. Different passes in graphics engines are rendered at different resolution, that is why you can select a different resolution for your shadow and effects etc etc.
 
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rnlval

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Yeah man that's just how it goes. AMD/Nvidia work with MS to shape the next DX API and viceversa to define standard set of features to include in their upcoming GPU architectures.
MS does not have involvement in the development of AMD/NVIDIA micro architectures however.

Remember DX10.1? AMD had more hw features than nvidia back then but DX wasn't fully exploiting those because they'd leave out a majority of the market (nvidia), that's why its important for GPU manufacturers work with MS to include the features that will be used and not waste any silicon in features that won't be used.
The argument: ethomaz ethomaz claims Microsoft has nothing to do with RDNA 2. LOL

From https://www.anandtech.com/show/14579/all-ryzen-qa-with-amd-ceo-dr-lisa-su
David Wang, AMD: We started RDNA before the Sony engagement. I think RDNA is revolutionary, and it is very flexible in terms of being able to be customized for different types of workloads.
RDNA was designed before the Sony engagement, hence debunking pro-Sony news articles such as https://segmentnext.com/2018/06/13/amd-navi-sony-playstation-5/
 
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rnlval

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Xbox One X does not support VRS. You people are just unbelievable. Different passes in graphics engines are rendered at different resolution, that is why you can select a different resolution for your shadow and effects etc etc.
Notice the word "like". Depth buffers (geometry) are in native resolution while color buffers are in different resolutions.
 

SonGoku

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You missed MS's large scale game software profiling given to AMD during X1X R&D phase. Many MS 1st party games are powered by Unreal Engine 4.
This is great but doesn't contradict what i said:
MS & NVIDIA/AMD work together to shape DX and define features to include in their new architectures
MS however is not involved in the development of AMD/NVIDIA micro-architectures
The argument: ethomaz ethomaz ethomaz ethomaz claims Microsoft has nothing to do with RDNA 2. LOL
They work together to define features for Turing/RDNA2 and shape DX but MS is not involved in the actual micro architecture design beyond that.
 
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rnlval

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Dude AMD already changed the waves in RDNA and it was for better power efficiency.
Nothing related to Shader Model 6's wave32 in MS API (GCN supports Shader Model 6's wave32 btw),
It is not related to RDNA 2.0.

You are confusing again software with hardware.

The Shader Model 6's wave32 is software and not related with how the hardware to waves inside the workload.


Notice "based on that hardware's own wavefront/warp width which is concealed". There's a direct relationship between software and hardware.
 
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rnlval

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This is great but doesn't contradict what i said:
MS & NVIDIA/AMD work together to shape DX and define features to include in their new architectures
MS however is not involved in the development of AMD/NVIDIA micro-architectures

They work together to define features for Turing/RDNA2 and shape DX but MS is not involved in the actual micro architecture design beyond that.
The argument: ethomaz ethomaz claims Microsoft has nothing to do with RDNA 2. LOL
 

LazyParrot

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RDNA was designed before the Sony engagement, hence debunking pro-Sony news articles such as https://segmentnext.com/2018/06/13/amd-navi-sony-playstation-5/
To me that just reads like the development process started before Sony got involved. Nowhere do they say that it finished before Sony had a chance to influence the design. Lisa Su even says that they included optimizations made at Sony's request right before that quote you posted:
Lisa Su: We certainly have done very specific optimizations for Sony. They are a very deep partner with us on semi-custom, and there are optimizations there.
 

rnlval

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To me that just reads like the development process started before Sony got involved. Nowhere do they say that it finished before Sony had a chance to influence the design. Lisa Su even says that they included optimizations made at Sony's request right before that quote you posted:
The trigger argument is : ethomaz ethomaz claims Microsoft has nothing to do with RDNA 2.