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Am I so out of touch? No, it's the (industry) who is out of touch. Where are the gen II Battle Royale games?

Are "second wave" Battle Royale games on their way?

  • Yes, they're just going to take a bit more time. Think 2022-2024.

  • No, the Battle Royale revolution is nearing it's expiration date.


Results are only viewable after voting.

Men_in_Boxes

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2017 - Janky as **** PUBG exploded onto the scene and breaks Steam records.

2018 - Fortnite flies by PUBG to become the most successful Western console/PC game of all time.

2019 - Apex Legends single handedly saves Respawn Entertainment.

2020 - Warzone kills traditional CoD multiplayer.

During that four year stretch, the only Battle Royale to falter in the market is Ubisofts Hyper Scape. A Battle Royale designed for people who don't like Battle Royale games...shocking I know. The genre is seemingly teflon at this point with an absurd hit rate.

Now, in 2021, the industry is gearing up to release a floodgate of Battl...(record scratch)...4 player co-op games?

Back 4 Blood
Aliens Fireteam
Rainbow 6 Quarantine
Outriders
Overwatch 2
Gotham Knights
Diablo 4
Warhammer Darktide
Arrowhead Studios next PS5 game

Can anyone explain this? There was a time where I could understand the industry thinking 4 player co-op was the next big thing. Destiny was everywhere in 2015 and 2016. Does the industry just move slower than expected?

Shouldn't we be starting to see gen II Battle Royale games built from the ground up with not only next gen technology in mind, but the knowledge of what makes the genre work?

4 player co-op games seem to be more costly to make (long development cycles) and their market ceiling seems to be significantly lower than BR.

What am I missing?
 

MrMephistoX

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I think they missed the boat as soon as Fortnite started doing licensed characters personally. My only regret is that I want licensed takeovers: Snake Eyes is cool but I also want to see like a GI Joe pack with blue laser gun drops and drivable H.I.S.S tanks or at least do Storm Shadow too.
 
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TheStam

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I wonder if Battlefield 6 releases together with f2p Battle Royal.They must do a lot better than last time though.
 
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Ozzy Onya A2Z

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Whaaaat maaaaate?

Apex and WZ are the next gen. Here's the top 3 -
  • The pinging system, insanely valuable to cut through party chats, screechers, randies etc all while delivering useful information. The same goes for automated character chatter e.g. Wraith calls out someone looking/pinging at them.
  • Matchmaking regional support, do not consider this point lightly. The level of international support through their matchmaking and backend provides a quality of matches found in games like Apex that is nothing short of next gen.
  • Graphical support, the level of detail in WZ or Apex running 60-150 players and high FPS levels is also nothing short of next gen.
There are other additions such as re-join a match from a DC or fast boot up times that again are refinements that deliver a next gen feel. There isn't going to be this insane leap from last gen but a series of quality of life improvements. I can tell you playing a 65" 60-120fps shooter while chatting with 3-6 mates banging out game after game being found fast and without hiccups (for the most part) is what I enjoy from my next gen console/PC and these next gen level BR games.

Honestly the sheer design and development of Apex has curated so much from real world networking and population issues to in game content and constant tweaks to herald a game that, for me at least, is next gen.

One could reasonably argue Fortnite has evolved with next gen as well. PvE, PvP, custom creator and zeitgeist loot. It's difficult to position such GaaS type games in one standalone generation.

EDIT: Funny you mention 4 player coop. There is a backlash evolving within BR/arena/PvP games where players and parties are getting sick of being stomped or disadvantaged by online gaming. PvE/coop alleviates this is many ways while giving other PvP modes a break from the player searching rotation. The number one and two things I want from Halo Infinite are in fact BR and coop akin to Destiny. I know 343 said no BR but I'm feeling they'll have their own take on it as a mode anyhow.
 
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Inviusx

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You're forgetting about so many other failures in the genre OP. Especially traditional multiplayer games that added BR modes that also failed.

I think history shows that you can't just release a BR game and expect it to blow up because its BR. Especially in 2021 now that the novelty has worn off, people don't just want to play another BR, they expect it to be better than what they played before which will be tough considering Warzone and Apex are still going strong.

Its easier for them to just stick with what they know, third person coop shooters.
 

Men_in_Boxes

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Upon reflection:

Back 4 Blood probably starts development as soon as Evolve tanks. So that's probably in 2016.

Arrowhead Studios next game began development in 2015 according to their website.

Gotham Knights starts development after WB Montreal releases Arkham Origins in 2013.

People Can Fly (Outriders) last full game was 2013s Gears of War Judgement. They did do some work on porting Bulletstorm and Fortnite: Save the World in 2017 though.

Cold Iron Studios (Aliens Fireteam) was founded in 2015, which suggests that development of Fireteam started in earnest in 2016/2017.

Blizzard historically has taken forever with it's games so Diablo 4 has probably been in the oven a while.

Overwatch 2 and Rainbow Six Quarantine seem like IP boosters to very successful games.

I guess this wave of 4 player co-op games started well before Battle Royale made it's mark.
 

Men_in_Boxes

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You're forgetting about so many other failures in the genre OP. Especially traditional multiplayer games that added BR modes that also failed.

I think history shows that you can't just release a BR game and expect it to blow up because its BR. Especially in 2021 now that the novelty has worn off, people don't just want to play another BR, they expect it to be better than what they played before which will be tough considering Warzone and Apex are still going strong.

You're right. I didn't include other Battle Royale "failures" because most of the other BR games weren't true efforts IMO. Short dev cycles, tacked on modes, small dev teams etc...
 

Hestar69

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Battlefield 6 will have a BR mode (god I hope it doesnt suck this time like 5's)

PUBG 2 is being rumored to be announced this month and come out 2021

I'm sure some other games will try to come out with a BR mode. Hopefully a good one comes out and kills fortnite finally.
 

Inviusx

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You're right. I didn't include other Battle Royale "failures" because most of the other BR games weren't true efforts IMO. Short dev cycles, tacked on modes, small dev teams etc...

Thinking about next gen BRs though, what would you expect to see that we haven't already seen?

My initial thought is just more players, more dynamic environments, more things to do when you're on the map etc etc, but who knows?
 

Pietanic

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the simpsons adult GIF
 

Fbh

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I think with these new trend genres it's really hard to enter the market and make it big once there's already a bunch of massively successful established IP's.
Look at MOBAS, everyone and their grandma was trying to get a piece of the moba cake not too long ago but no one came even close to the popularity of LOL and Dota 2. You had some mild successes like Smite and that Blizzard one but nothing truly big
 
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The_Mike

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Battle royale to shooters are what wow were to mmos.

Dumbed down boring gameplay everyone wants to copy because they want a slice of that dough.
 

Men_in_Boxes

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Thinking about next gen BRs though, what would you expect to see that we haven't already seen?

My initial thought is just more players, more dynamic environments, more things to do when you're on the map etc etc, but who knows?

I think your suggestions are correct. We'll see all of those in wave 2.

Brenden Greene (the father of BR) said in an interview once that the single reason Battle Royale / PUBG exploded in popularity because it allowed players to play how they want.

I think that's the future of the genre. Gen II Battle Royale games will allow stealthy players to play stealthy, strategic players to play strategic, action players to play actioney, social players to play socially etc...
 
J

JeremyEtcetera

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Too difficult / costly to try and go up against the current popular BR games maybe?
This is one of the correct reasons. A publisher wouldn't want to spend time, money, a full dev team, and other resources on a BR shooter that hopefully has a whim of a chance to beat the Big 3 and have to be updated and worked on constantly so it doesn't instantly die.

Thinking about next gen BRs though, what would you expect to see that we haven't already seen?

My initial thought is just more players, more dynamic environments, more things to do when you're on the map etc etc, but who knows?

There's plenty of creative angles not traveled yet when it comes to the BR genre. Simply taking the guns away is already being more creative. Racing BR, Fighting Game BR, Smash BR, Megaman BR, RPG BR, JRPG BR, Horror BR, Jet Set Radio/Graffiti BR, Dodgeball BR, etc.
 

rodrigolfp

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To me, gens are waves of games, not games themselves. I view every Battle Royale game to this day as a Gen 1 BR.
So DayZ was on gen 1 alone for 5 years. BR didn't start with PUBG in 2017.
Thinking about next gen BRs though, what would you expect to see that we haven't already seen?

My initial thought is just more players, more dynamic environments, more things to do when you're on the map etc etc, but who knows?
That is almost DayZ.
 
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Men_in_Boxes

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Too difficult / costly to try and go up against the current popular BR games maybe?

I don't think that's it.

PUBG went up against H1Z1
Fortnite went up against PUBG.
Apex Legends went up against Fortnite.
Warzone went up against Apex Legends.

All 4 titles are still atop the food chain.
 

eastcoastkody

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I think what happened is BR exploded. Then other people tried. Then everyone was like, "ugh another BR....ur too late to the game. The trend is gonna die". So i think ppl held off thinking it was a fad and they would be johnny come lately's. And pretty much no good BR's came out again.

Ur forgetting Battlefield had a terrible one. And COD Black Ops 4 had a good one that nobody played.

I for one want a Destiny BR.

I tried Hyperscape, and it had some cool power-ups and the weapons were decent enough. But at least on console the aiming was completely broken. And the map sucks. Its just a big bland samey map where u just run around on rooftops
 

Ozzy Onya A2Z

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Battle royale to shooters are what wow were to mmos.

Dumbed down boring gameplay everyone wants to copy because they want a slice of that dough.
For COD I can agree with this; camping, twitchy gameplay.

For Fortnite I can agree with this; long walks, building becomes the game and hit and miss moment to moment play.

For Apex I do NOT agree with this; choose how you play e.g. hard and fast or slow and calculated. The systems at work by design in Apex are quite different and produce far better in game experiences/gameplay than other BRs out there. It's literally the only BR game I enjoy.
 
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Men_in_Boxes

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I think what happened is BR exploded. Then other people tried. Then everyone was like, "ugh another BR....ur too late to the game. The trend is gonna die". So i think ppl held off thinking it was a fad and they would be johnny come lately's. And pretty much no good BR's came out again.

That's not really true though.

The hit rate on legitimate Battle Royale games is better than any other genre in existence.

The only "honest effort" Battle Royale to fail is Hyper Scape, which removed much of what makes the genre fun. Every other high effort Battle Royale to release in the last 3 years has been a grand slam success.

We need to see two things before the BR "fad" peters out.

1. Current BR games need to lose popularity.
2. New BR games need to fail.

We really haven't seen either.
 
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eastcoastkody

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That's not really true though.

The hit rate on legitimate Battle Royale games is better than any other genre in existence.

The only "honest effort" Battle Royale to fail is Hyper Scape, which removed much of what makes the genre fun. Every other high effort Battle Royale to release in the last 3 years has been a grand slam success.

We need to see two things before the BR "fad" peters out.

1. Current BR games need to lose popularity.
2. New BR games need to fail.

We really haven't seen either.
i didn't say they were a fad. But that is the sentiment or at least it was, in a broad scope. That maybe too many of them were flooding the market all at once, seemingly. So i think that kept others from jumping on board. When in reality everyone should've jumped in immediately.

For COD I can agree with this; camping, twitchy gameplay.

For Fortnite I can agree with this; long walks, building becomes the game and hit and miss moment to moment play.

For Apex I do NOT agree with this; choose how you play e.g. hard and fast or slow and calculated. The systems are work by design in Apex are quite different and produce far better in game experiences/gameplay that other BRs out there. It's literally the only BR game I enjoy.

Apex Legends is not only the best BR. Its maybe my favorite online shooter just in general. I can tolerate Fortnite now, since i enjoy all the stupid skins and the shooting has gotten better (and its easy stupid fun because it has bots now). But Apex is top tier imo. PubG has never been good on console. COD Warzone is bleh. I did like Black Out tho
 

JimboJones

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I don't think that's it.

PUBG went up against H1Z1
Fortnite went up against PUBG.
Apex Legends went up against Fortnite.
Warzone went up against Apex Legends.

All 4 titles are still atop the food chain.
After PUBG the competition became EA, Activision and Epic, you mentioned Ubisoft tried too, I think the only publishers bigger or as big are console manufacturers but they are probably content hosting them vs competing against them, Valve doesn't seem interested.
Nintendo could come out with something wacky again like Tetris.
But who knows, probably something from an indie dev may end blowing up.
 

Men_in_Boxes

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For COD I can agree with this; camping, twitchy gameplay.

For Fortnite I can agree with this; long walks, building becomes the game and hit and miss moment to moment play.

For Apex I do NOT agree with this; choose how you play e.g. hard and fast or slow and calculated. The systems are work by design in Apex are quite different and produce far better in game experiences/gameplay that other BRs out there. It's literally the only BR game I enjoy.

I once tested a hypothesis because I'm a nerd.

I YouTubed "7 kill Fortnite Victory Royale" and "7 kill Apex Legends win".

I then watched both full matches and tried to measure "action time" vs "down time" in each game.

"Action time" was defined as the time between a player being seen/shot at, and when the conflict resolves itself (one team kills the other team).

"Down time" is when the player is looting or running while calm (not being targeted or chasing another enemy).

I chose 7 kills because I read somewhere that that number was the average kill count for a winner in Fortnite.

My memory is a bit hazey, but Fortnite had like 33 percent "action time" compared to like "18 percent "action time" in Apex Legends.

Fortnites engagements are significantly longer and more varied than any other Battle Royale because of the building and unique items.

I only did this once so it's not scientific but it seems to support my hypothesis that Fortnite has the most action of any BR.
 
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The_Mike

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For COD I can agree with this; camping, twitchy gameplay.

For Fortnite I can agree with this; long walks, building becomes the game and hit and miss moment to moment play.

For Apex I do NOT agree with this; choose how you play e.g. hard and fast or slow and calculated. The systems at work by design in Apex are quite different and produce far better in game experiences/gameplay than other BRs out there. It's literally the only BR game I enjoy.

Ah yeah, apex. The BR that killed off Titanfall.

I'm just the wrong guy to ask. Fps especially online gaming is my most favored genre and I really hate how BR has ruined the online fps community. It's so hard to find a decent online shooter cus everyone wants to be a boring walking Simulator where you run for ten minutes only to get shot in the head.
 

Men_in_Boxes

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i didn't say they were a fad. But that is the sentiment or at least it was, in a broad scope. That maybe too many of them were flooding the market all at once, seemingly. So i think that kept others from jumping on board. When in reality everyone should've jumped in immediately.

I don't think you can look at the market and genuinely say "Battle Royales are a fad". They've been dominant for 3 years running now.

I do think the genre has haters due to its overwhelming popularity and success, but when haters say it's a "fad" it's just wishful thinking from them.

The "too many BRs flooding the market" line has me thinking:



The OP has nine 4 player co-op shooters readying to release.

Where is this flood of Battle Royale games?
 

Jeeves

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I don't pay attention to the battle royales, but given how thoroughly Fortnite has permeated popular culture at this point, I wouldn't be surprised if it alone has over-saturated the public's interest in the genre.

My gut feeling is that when the Fortnite fanbase finally moves on, it won't be to another battle royale game.
 

LazyParrot

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Concurrent players.

Total players.

Pop culture penetration.

I know PUBG had/has a ton of success on phone but that seems to be a grey area.
Do you have a link? I thought Epic's policy is not to publish any information on player numbers aside from the total number of registered accounts. I know there have been exceptions for special events, but as far as I know they never published averages.
 

Men_in_Boxes

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Do you have a link? I thought Epic's policy is not to publish any information on player numbers aside from the total number of registered accounts. I know there have been exceptions for special events, but as far as I know they never published averages.


"In May 2020, Epic announced that Fortnite had a staggering 350 million registered accounts with players spending 3.3 billion hours in-game during the month of April 2020. They reiterated this same figure in August 2020 in a lawsuit with Epic. Of course, the worldwide situation may have helped both these numbers, but there’s no baulking at such impressive figures."

"It was reported in the lawsuit filings that 2.5 million of the roughly 25 million DAU for Fortnite played exclusively on iOS before the two companies’ legal battle began – Fortnite is now no longer available on iOS."

"Fortnite’s Marvel-themed season 4 finale didn’t just have players battling it out against a planet-sized super villain. It also broke a new record of the battle royale game. There were over 15.3 million concurrent players logged in, with another 3 million tuned in to watch the action happen on YouTube Gaming and Twitch, according to the company."

For reference, PUBGs concurrent player record on Steam is 3.4 million (vs 15.3 million on Fortnite). PUBG never made a big splash on XBox where Fortnite has held steady at the #1 overall spot since early 2018.
 

LazyParrot

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"In May 2020, Epic announced that Fortnite had a staggering 350 million registered accounts with players spending 3.3 billion hours in-game during the month of April 2020. They reiterated this same figure in August 2020 in a lawsuit with Epic. Of course, the worldwide situation may have helped both these numbers, but there’s no baulking at such impressive figures."

"It was reported in the lawsuit filings that 2.5 million of the roughly 25 million DAU for Fortnite played exclusively on iOS before the two companies’ legal battle began – Fortnite is now no longer available on iOS."

"Fortnite’s Marvel-themed season 4 finale didn’t just have players battling it out against a planet-sized super villain. It also broke a new record of the battle royale game. There were over 15.3 million concurrent players logged in, with another 3 million tuned in to watch the action happen on YouTube Gaming and Twitch, according to the company."

For reference, PUBGs concurrent player record on Steam is 3.4 million (vs 15.3 million on Fortnite). PUBG never made a big splash on XBox where Fortnite has held steady at the #1 overall spot since early 2018.
Thanks. I'm not sure how much sense it makes to compare PUBG's numbers on one platform (Steam) to Fortnite's on all platforms, though, especially once you include mobile versions. And once you do start to include mobile, Fortnite once again loses to PUBG, whose mobile version passed 700 million downloads and hit 65 million daily active users last year, and that's not even including numbers from China, which has become the game's biggest market.
 
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Men_in_Boxes

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Thanks. I'm not sure how much sense it makes to compare PUBG's numbers on one platform (Steam) to Fortnite's on all platforms, though, especially once you include mobile versions. And once you do start to include mobile, Fortnite once again loses to PUBG, whose mobile version passed 700 million downloads and hit 65 million daily active users last year, and that's not even including numbers from China, which has become the game's biggest market.

Phone/consoles/China are definitely grey areas.

The point is that both Battle Royale games have been uber successful.
 
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There's only so many of these games that can be sustainable at once, gamer's don't have unlimited time. Every time a new successful one comes out the harder it is for the next one.
 

Ozzy Onya A2Z

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I once tested a hypothesis because I'm a nerd.

I YouTubed "7 kill Fortnite Victory Royale" and "7 kill Apex Legends win".

I then watched both full matches and tried to measure "action time" vs "down time" in each game.

"Action time" was defined as the time between a player being seen/shot at, and when the conflict resolves itself (one team kills the other team).

"Down time" is when the player is looting or running while calm (not being targeted or chasing another enemy).

I chose 7 kills because I read somewhere that that number was the average kill count for a winner in Fortnite.

My memory is a bit hazey, but Fortnite had like 33 percent "action time" compared to like "18 percent "action time" in Apex Legends.

Fortnites engagements are significantly longer and more varied than any other Battle Royale because of the building and unique items.

I only did this once so it's not scientific but it seems to support my hypothesis that Fortnite has the most action of any BR.

BR is wildly varied based on what you choose to do and each game you play. Fortnite is generally a forced traversal or build battle where Apex is designed to focus down while having more options at your fingertips e.g. fight immediately, loot slowly, character movements/abilities (zip lines, jump pads, teleporters, grav lifts) and in built things to the maps such as balloon zips. Generally speaking Apex is geared towards solving many of the issues still present with other BR games like PUBG/Fortnite/WZ. You just have to experience and think about what Respawn have done. It's that gameplay affected by design and player/squad choice elements that set it apart which leads to my statement it is the next gen BR.

Ah yeah, apex. The BR that killed off Titanfall.

I'm just the wrong guy to ask. Fps especially online gaming is my most favored genre and I really hate how BR has ruined the online fps community. It's so hard to find a decent online shooter cus everyone wants to be a boring walking Simulator where you run for ten minutes only to get shot in the head.
A buddy I play Apex with very regularly says this all the time. We loved TF2 multi but he wishes for the TF1 implementation, we're both keen on a TF3 campaign and multi.

Same here with FPS being a fav. I hared all BR games but Apex is so much like Halo gameplay for me. Sure there's the loss of straight up small arena maps but I never enjoyed the MLG/HCS take on Halo anyway. Free range Halo or objective focused "default" Halo is my penultimate FPS e.g. light vehicles, asymmetrical maps.

There is a huge area of BR I'm waiting for a dev to really implement well, sort of hoping Infinite's take on BR is this, objective based BR. It brings map focus, tight fights, less looting and more action as well as rewarding teamwork and strategy. Objective based BR would also scale very well to things like Halo's BTB or larger armies fighting with smaller squads/leaders within based on parties/chats. To me this is the next evolution of BR, less 1-3 man stuff and introducing a larger management system for cohesion or dynamic story/world building. There's room for more innovation of matchmaking systems tied right into things like BR that bring back traditional FPS elements too e.g. outcomes of multiplayer games affect what places you can drop or mode/map selections during matchmaking based on your alignments or squad.

Overall if there was to be a "next gen" BR from where we are I'd like to see a reworking of the systems behind the scenes feeding right into gameplay, keep the single players/squads affecting things and great engagements but dynamically design your game and systems from a centralised world. Destiny was so close in areas like Dreaming City e.g. factions would fight in the main areas and intensity of bosses would scale and randomise. Throw in things like AI marines from TF2, redevelop matchmaking systems from shared real time data and push a management system in game to deliver a next gen BR. Done right it would certainly be a more "evolving" version of Destiny PvE content, current BR landscape and arena shooters like Halo of old.
 
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Battle Royale is here to stay. When it was out for the first 2 years I thought now every game will have it and it will burn out fast. I think BR became a staple of MP gaming now. Nobody cares about team deathmatch maps anymore. And Fortnite introduced changing the existing map seasonally. All of a sudden developers dont have to worry about making a massive new map every year, instead open up new areas in the existing map. Last night i played Warzone, theres new underground tunnels, bomb silos and a whole ship stranded on shore.
 
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Hulk_Smash

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Whaaaat maaaaate?

Apex and WZ are the next gen. Here's the top 3 -
  • The pinging system, insanely valuable to cut through party chats, screechers, randies etc all while delivering useful information. The same goes for automated character chatter e.g. Wraith calls out someone looking/pinging at them.
  • Matchmaking regional support, do not consider this point lightly. The level of international support through their matchmaking and backend provides a quality of matches found in games like Apex that is nothing short of next gen.
  • Graphical support, the level of detail in WZ or Apex running 60-150 players and high FPS levels is also nothing short of next gen.
There are other additions such as re-join a match from a DC or fast boot up times that again are refinements that deliver a next gen feel. There isn't going to be this insane leap from last gen but a series of quality of life improvements. I can tell you playing a 65" 60-120fps shooter while chatting with 3-6 mates banging out game after game being found fast and without hiccups (for the most part) is what I enjoy from my next gen console/PC and these next gen level BR games.

Honestly the sheer design and development of Apex has curated so much from real world networking and population issues to in game content and constant tweaks to herald a game that, for me at least, is next gen.

One could reasonably argue Fortnite has evolved with next gen as well. PvE, PvP, custom creator and zeitgeist loot. It's difficult to position such GaaS type games in one standalone generation.

EDIT: Funny you mention 4 player coop. There is a backlash evolving within BR/arena/PvP games where players and parties are getting sick of being stomped or disadvantaged by online gaming. PvE/coop alleviates this is many ways while giving other PvP modes a break from the player searching rotation. The number one and two things I want from Halo Infinite are in fact BR and coop akin to Destiny. I know 343 said no BR but I'm feeling they'll have their own take on it as a mode anyhow.
I agree. I’ve been playing BR games since the beginning and it always ends up the same: game starts out with everyone on even footing, sweats start playing it non-stop and get really good, staying ahead of the meta, game is ruined for casuals like myself who just want to relax with some buds.

I’m tired of always feeling like I have to be hopped up on Red Bull just to compete. So, I uninstalled CoD and am now back to playing coop games on Steam.
 
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CitizenZ

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A few things:

1. I think it was 2016, 2 yrs after Fortnite reveal, someone wrote into the Giantbombcast and said Fortnite will never come out and was only a "Tech demo". Reminder it was released as a zombie/ building horde mode game demo in 2017, 3 yrs after cover story on GI.
2. 100 million players logging in monthly to WZ so why change the formula?
3. Respawn was fine without Apex, but it defiantly brought them back to into the FPS discussion, though their talent has never really been a question.

Also here is a tip on when to expect the next big BR, and based on simple history, it will not come from a AAA studio but again from 1-3 sweaty dudes coding their asses off.
 
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