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News Spoilers All The Last of Us 2 leaks/spoilers in here and nowhere else.

Aug 28, 2019
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Are you dense? Tommy said he was from Jackson. How dose that make any sense to let him live TO GO BACK TO JACKSON along with ANOTHER WITNESS who clearly cared about Joel? Dude that is exactly why in every crime movie ever AND in real life the leave no witnesses.

In real life all criminals leave no witnesses? What? You must be missing the part where these characters aren't meant to be morally repugnant, moustache-twirlingly evil characters and recognized their revenge is for nothing if they become as bad as him.
 

Halo is Dead

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In real life all criminals leave no witnesses? What? You must be missing the part where these characters aren't meant to be morally repugnant, moustache-twirlingly evil characters and recognized their revenge is for nothing if they become as bad as him.
We at least you put a decent defense. His defense made no sense. But excuse me when I question their moral superiority when they beat a man to death with a golf club slowly. "You don't get to rush this" -Abby
 

EDMIX

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In real life all criminals leave no witnesses? What? You must be missing the part where these characters aren't meant to be morally repugnant, moustache-twirlingly evil characters and recognized their revenge is for nothing if they become as bad as him.

Agreed.

Its easier to just let it be Joel and move on, then to kill so many that the whole town wants revenge and causes a war with WLF.

WLF already fighting the scars doesn't actually need that trouble.

Add on top that the characters don't see themselves that way, it makes 100% complete sense why they don't kill Ellie and Tommy. Simply many who didn't even play the game have made up their minds and didn't even fully see WHY such a option was chosen.

So when they kill all of them and Jackson then takes up arms to hunt down WLF, what happens when Issac finds out about this petty revenge mission that now has him fighting ANOTHER GROUP on TOP of the scars cause Abby and Owen's stupidity? From Abby and Owens perspective, it could mean them even getting killed by Issac if he feels its worth it to let them die to protect all of WLF and have enough resources to fight the Scars, but someone would have to actually play the whole game to know that much to fully understand why Owen makes those statements during those scenes.
 
Aug 28, 2019
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We at least you put a decent defense. His defense made no sense. But excuse me when I question their moral superiority when they beat a man to death with a golf club slowly. "You don't get to rush this" -Abby

You're meant to question their moral superiority, in the same way you're meant to question Joel's and finally Ellie's. No one is RIGHT to seek revenge in the game, Joel wasn't right to kill the surgeon when he could have pulled a gun and made them give her up, heck even taking her from there wasn't necessarily right, I could see Joel forcing them to awaken her and let her know the risks but Joel wouldn't do that because he didn't want her to choose this.
 

Valentino

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I saw this on comment on youtube regarding Joel being so laid back around the WLF - and it makes sense...

When people say "that's out of character for Joel he doesn't trust anyone"..............how would you rewrite it? Would you have just added a scene of him whispering to Tommy "i'm not sure about these people".....................because the way it went: they had just saved Abby, taken shelter at HER recommended hideout.......and there's a dozen infected on the front door (more than the ones set on fire) and a blizzard. You think he's gonna jump out that window with Tommy when they aint lookin? It's either risk a bunch of people you don't know or risk infected and a blizzard.....

All the characters have changed somehow in the sequel, but naturally I feel.
 

Strategize

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I saw this on comment on youtube regarding Joel being so laid back around the WLF - and it makes sense...



All the characters have changed somehow in the sequel, but naturally I feel.
I mean duh. I literally put that together the very first time I saw it because they literally talk about it in the scene, they had to go there. The only thing that's "lucky" with that sequence is the fact that the patrol Abby was looking for just so happened to be Joel and Tommy. No one's really "out of character".

What's happening is because people don't like a certain plot point, they can't just not like it, they have to create reasons as to why it's "objectively bad" or whatever. Notice how no one cares about the fact that Joel somehow survives falling on a pipe in the first game and somehow survives without proper care for like weeks because they result is something they like.
 
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ZZZZ

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Agreed.

Its easier to just let it be Joel and move on, then to kill so many that the whole town wants revenge and causes a war with WLF.
If you leave no witness, how do they know it's the WLF that killed them?

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Notice how no one cares about the fact that Joel somehow survives falling on a pipe in the first game and somehow survives without proper care for like weeks because they result is something they like.
I care, i think it's the worst part of the game, it's just there for shock value and takes a lot of the immersion out of the game. If you don't plan on killing Joel, don't let him get impaled by a pipe, he should have died in less than a minute there.
 
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Strategize

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I care, i think it's the worst part of the game, it's just there for shock value and takes a lot of the immersion out of the game. If you don't plan on killing Joel, don't let him get impaled by a pipe, he should have died in less than a minute there.
Yeah there's you and a handful of others, most people don't care and just like it as an excuse to play as Ellie for a bit. Compare that to all the people almost purposely misinterpreting the Joel sequence in this game because they have confirmation bias.
 
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bishopcruz

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Beat the game off of a gamefly rental, gonna send it back. This may be one of the most frustrating games I have ever played. It is a narrative mess, and absolute mish mash of ideas and themes, with moments of genuine narrative brilliance. Those moments are all lost behind a game that is both too long for the basic plot beats that it drives home, while simultaneously being too short for the story that needed to be told to be satisfying.

Opening

The opening seems like it was cut together by a 1990s music video editor on meth. We cut between:
1. Prevously on the Last of Us and the guitar intro
2. Ellie in Jackson, four years later, but after the actual intro to these characters, which will be in 25 hours
3. Abby later that night, waking up before a blizzard and running from zombies
4. Ellie's tutorial section, in the hours before Abby wakes up
5. Abby again in real time, saves by Joel leading to the golf game
6. Ellie again, who has somehow been caught up to by Jessie despite the vanishing blizzard. Running into Abby and crew.

That is six major cuts, several of them out of order, no good introduction to any new characters, practically no Joel, the person who we are about to lose, and all done in the name of making Joel's death SHOCKING. Joel is killed by people we don't know, is backed up by people we don't know., and it is hard to get any feel narratively for what is happening. The entire situation is our contrivance. The goal was a reenactment of Caddyshack, and every bit of plot timing and story was twisted to get it to happen.

Why are Joel and Tommy so far ahead of everyone else? We know that just the night before Ellie and Joel had a conversation about forgiveness, they set up a movie night even. They were scheduled to go out of patrol, as Jessie said, so why did Joel and Tommy go out on their own first. The game seems to hint that they had been out for a while, but that CANNOT be the case. Doesn't matter, we need Joel there to save Abby to die. Why are Tommy and Joel unarmed when meeting the wolves? HOW does Tommy not see Abby pull out a SHOTGUN in plain view?

And all of that is almost forgiven by the just amazing performance of Ashley Johnson as she begs Abby not to kill Joel. It is HEARTBREAKING, it is haunting, and it is enraging. It's jut a shame that it is also lazy and let;s be honest predictable (you want to shock the Audience? Have Joel survive this game, no one would have seen that coming.)

Act 1 - Seattle (Elly)
I wish I could say that the pacing and editing work better as the game goes on. they don't. Everyone in Elly's group has a severe case of the stupids. Tommy runs off on his own (though canonically, by himself he would have done better than Ellie, chew on that one) and Ellie and Dina ride cross country to catch him ASAP on ONE HORSE! Maria must not give a fuck about Tommy because a single person riding on one horse is going to make FAR better time than a pair going double. Tommy could have been there DAYS head of them, if not longer. Either way we get to Seattle, Day 1, and it is gorgeous. Dina is fine, a little bland but exploring the city is nice at first, it gets old fast, and honestly the open world section does nothing but slow down pacing when we should get a feel for what is happening in the city.

And what is happening is nothing, but we will get to that later. Day 1 is a mess, nothing of value actually happens story wise. We have a few nice moments between Ellie and Dina, but I do not understand what happens day 1 that requires that much narrative space. The wolves are fairly generic as enemies, though all th artifacts that talk about them paint them in a very scary light, one that more or less gets ignored when we play as them as Abby. Anyhow, Dina gets sick, one of Abby's friends dies, whee.

Day 2 is the height of the gameplay with Ellie. It's not amazing, but it does have the best pacing and moves forward towards an acceptable climax. Story wise nothing of note happens other than Jessie showing up, which again is done solely to have that "You think I'd let you do this on your own." scene as there is NO good story reason he didn't just leave with Ellie and Dina in the first place. Hell, had they just brought Tommy along too, all of Seattle could have been handled in about a day and that time used for more interesting locations and stories, but I digress. The day ends with another strong scene, Ellie and Nora. The scene taken on its own is powerful, showing just how much Ellie is losing herself and understanding what she is willing to do to gain closure. In actual context it kind of fails. Nora means nothing to us at this point, and it is hard to feel for Ellie going dark when there are piles of bodies left behind her everywhere she goes. Just watch the scene and ignore the context, you'll be better for it.

I should talk about the flashbacks here. These are generally good to amazing. Starting at amazing, going to good, then the last one was just pain. This is THE revelation we have been waiting for. The scene where the Lie comes out. And what is it, about a minute and a half long. Insane. We NEEDED a longer conversation there. More had to be said, bring out both arguments. Have Ellie angry but also a little relieved in not being dead but unable to say it because she is angry. ANYTHING. What a missed opportunity. Museum was amazing, and the other one was fine, and I am almost certain it was meant to be a tutorial for Ellie at some point in development. It had that feel to it.

Day 3 - The worst day of the game. A few mediocre combat arenas, a rushed change of heart for Ellie, that both comes out of nowhere and yet is the most predictable thing yet. And then the Aquarium, an amazing set that is used for fuck all. The act climaxes on a wet fart with the deaths of Owen and Mel. We needed a whole day for this? We also have the miraculous disappearing reappearing storm. But more on that later. And I am trying to avoid nitpicking here, I really am. But the leftover map is the most contrived bit of plot in a game filled with contrivances. The taking o stupid pills continues, not even the barest precautions taken to secure their hidden base in ENEMY TERRETORY with two factions at war all around you who are both shoot on sight. Oh yeah, and leave the lights on. BRILLIANT. Anyhow, Abby smash, then flashback.

Act 2 Seattle (Abby)
Abby's day one is better in that it isn't supremely slow. But it does introduce us to the narrative coneit of TLoU2, the humanization of Abby. I'll state this up front I find this to be an almost complete failure, not only because she killed Joel, but because it is handled horribly. I can think of three times that I felt any sort of sympathy for Abby, one on day 3, and two in the epilogue. That is not good.

Abby's flashbacks mirror Ellie's cue "It's like Poetry, it rhymes.". The problem is that I'm sorry Doctor Jerry, the final "Decision" at the end of TLoU1 was always the weakest bit of plot in that game. It didn't matter much back then because the ending didn't hinge on the Fireflies being right, it hinged on being a situation in which Joel would kill for her, consequences be damned, and one in which he would lie to her. That is all it needed to do. Now in the sequel, we need to feel that Dr. Jerry was a good guy, or at least not a bad one, but sorry, he is planning on murdering a 14 year old girl on the off chance of providing a cure. Sorry, this will not work. Save all the Zebras you want guy, you still deserved the scalpel in the neck, the world is a better place with you not in it. I understand Abby's pain, but it isn't enough to even come close to feeling justified. The other flashbacks are about how much she Luuuuuurves Owen, but honestly while he is my favorite wolf, he's about as interesting as carboard.

We then move on to her Day 1. It's fine. Mel going out on the front lines is the dumbest shit ever, Manny is a tool, as are most of the Wolves. Somehow she Mel and Manny are ambushed SECONDS outside of their base, and no one comes to provide backup? No wonder the wolves have lost the city, they suck! It you can allow the people you are at war with to have DOZENS of foot soldiers and cavalry spitting distance from the ENTRANCE to your base, you need to fix that shit. Either way, we eventually find out that Owen has gone Awol, and Abby to the rescue. In what takes all together too long she makes her way across Seattle, is captured, then saved by Yara and Lev. Inoffensive but ultimately bland characters. Lev doesn't even HAVE the personality of cardboard, and Yara has no personality outside of "protective older sister" After that it's time for drunk Owen. He whines, and they talk about everything BUT the horrific murder that set him on his downward spiral, because that might be revealing about character.

After the worst sex scene this side of Ride to Hell: Retribution the day thankfully ends.

Day 2 is Abby's weakest. Hope you like wandering through boring building after boring building. On the bright side, it has a boss fight. And yeah, that's the entire bright side. Mel is back, she somehow went AWOL and by herself with no trouble at all despite being preggers as fuck. And that is about it. It really is a waste of a day. What drives me nuts is that with Tommy and Ellie on a rampage we should be getting more of a feel for how what they are doing is affecting Abby and crew, have some clue that their sins are coming back to bite them in the ass, but we don't get that at all until day 3, and even then it is almost completely forgotten till the end.

I will take a moment to single out Owen, the only member of the wolves who seems to have a conscience. He is tired of the killing, the horrible shit we know via log entires that the wolves have to do, Joel's death appears to have been a turning point for him, but we can't capitalize or dwell on that, because that would require actual dialog between characters, and we can't have that. The ENTIRE hospital quest was nothing but filler, hell Day 2 just had no real reason to exist. It isn't like Abby finds Nora dead. Her being at the hospital changed nothing, meant nothing. Are we sensing a theme here?

Day 3 - The day of the unchecked stupidity. Welp, Lev is an idiot. So we have to save him. People die. The end.

Oh right, more. Soooo. we run into Manny, he dies because Tommy learned how to IDKFA. Mel calls Abby a piece of shit, and I agree with her, but have no idea why she said it now and how it was supposed to have an impact. Owen is mopey and sad, so business as per us. Abby decides NOT to warn the love of her life and his baby mama that there is a crazed Texan on the loose out for their blood. Not like they can just take a five minute detour into the aquarium... oh wait. Anyway, some great action during these scenes on Scar Island, Yara and Issac die. Who is Issac, the single most wasted character this side of Joel. He just kinda exists to spout cliche evil commander speak, and get shot.

Ok sidebar. Yeah we have all heard the jokes that Abby is large, AND SHE IS, but what the fuck do the scars feed their people? Those sledgehammer weilders make Abby look tiny, and there are dozens of them? One as a boss fight? Ok sure whatever, but a veritable army of goliaths than can crack walnuts with their rock hard buttocks? FUCK THAT!

So Abby loses her gear and escapes with Lev, saving him for the THIRD fucking time in as many days, but whatever. She gets back to the aquarium, and Owen Mel and Alice are dead. And she is broken.

Ok all jokes aside. Know how I mentioned I actually felt empathy for Abby at three different points? This was the first. I mean story wise again, it was a mess, but the acting and direction sell that scene. Everything she cares about is dead, Lev is the only person she has left, and it is devastating. Imagine how effective it might have been if the aftermath of them killing Joel was a theme that was discussed more than just in passing. Imagine of Abby had felt actual guilt for how it went down. Maybe she sees Ellie in her sleep, crying for Joel's life, maybe she tries to lie to herself, and say its ok. Maybe different people in the wolves feel differently. I think all of these ideas ARE in the game, but they aren't executed. But that is the problem with all of Seattle.

So we get to the fight. The one that every single fucking person lost on purpose at least once. The fight was an amazing concept, stalking Ellie as she unts you at the same time. doding her traps and trying desperately to gain the upper hand. Or it would have been if it didn't end up being, grab bottle auto aim at her head, beat the young girl into the pavement. Repeat two more times.

The climax, if you can call it that, of Seattle lands like a juicy fart. We had a chance for Abby to reflect on her actions, see how everything led to this, how her friends are dead, in part because of her. How this girl is just like her, how everyone suffers. Nah fuck that, instead, let's have Lev's puppy dog eyes stop Abby from murdering a pregnant woman. The end.

Looking back at Seattle
So yeah, Seattle sucks. It sucks hard and it sucks long. We do have brief pockets of fun gameplay and the scenes I have mentioned above, but Abby's time in Seattle barely needed to exist, and Ellie's time there absolutely didn't need to exist. Honestly, remove Seattle from the narrative for Ellie, and what changes. Jessie is alive, and Tommy is less fucked up. Ellie isn't haunted byt the events of Seattle, she is haunted by the death of Joel, which she was before. Nothing changed. The revenge narrative just got more and more muddled. If Seattle was going to be a thing for Ellie, then it needed to be 1 to 2 days at most. Day 1 could have been about an actual hour of content, maybe two, Day 2 was fine as it was, and Day 3... well that actually needed a climax of some sort for Ellie.

Abby needs Seattle, her entire story revolves around it, but even then Ellie plays such a small role in it, if you killed her friends in other ways not a lot would change going into the endgame. LEv and Yara were fine ideas, but Abby becomes attached way too quickly, eventually being able to murder her own comrades without a second thought. She ends in a decent place story wise but how she got there was not worth the trip. And she, and her crew never actually got interesting or likable. Too many characters, not enough actual drama.

The endgame, aka the best part of TLoU2
So now we move on to the most controversial part of the game, the endgame. I will say this, taken on its own. I think it works well. Far better than I expected it to. Ellie is broken, she is unable to move on and give herself closure. She is living a happy life on a farm that seems like it exists only to lure out hunters to steal their shit, but it is just a sham. She loves JJ and Dina, but she can't move on. People say they don't get why Ellie made the choice she did. She never had another choice. She was BROKEN. It's sad and it's powerful, and it has nothing to actually do with the rest of the game.

So again, do a thought experiment. Cut the story at Joel's grave, then cut to the Epilogue. What changes? What have we learned about Ellie in Seattle that is evident here? Nothing, in fact all of her actual character development is handled better in about 10 minutes of this epilogue on the farm than in 10 fucking hours running down one way corridors in Seattle. Hell, just say Jessie died, and Tommy lost an eye from the beatings of the wolves and it even would make perfect story sense. The ending shows just how pointless the last 20 hours have been.

We also get the introduction to Dina and Jessie, 25 hours too late. I am a fan of non linear storytelling but this was just awful. The scene has NO REASON to be here. And it is clearly designed to be at the beginning of the story. Or do you think Naughty Dog is in the habits of showing part of their endings as the first real reveal of the game? Great scene, but needed to be back where it belonged in the goddamed intro.

Moving on, Ellie leaves, Dina gives an ultimatum, and again an actual conversation would be interesting here, so fuck that, we're moving on. We see Abby and Lev explore, then our hero, Fat Geralt comes in and elevates the ending to amazing.

Santa barbara is awesome. It, more than any other location, felt like Last of Us 1. Smaller, but well designed fun to explore and gank people in. A narrative told not through a ton of journals, but by the layout of the town. You learn more about these rattlers in under an hour than you did about the WLF in the first day. Ellie is full on Girl on Fire, and it is glorious. She is acting like the smart and capable person we know she is. One side note, literally, the second place I felt empathy for Abby was finding one of the letters she writes to Owen. You can tell how deeply it affected her. Again,, it would have been nice to see this more in the actual game, but I'll takes what I can get. And seeing Abby broken, I get my third actual bit of empathy for her. Karma is a bitch, but you almost feel it might be enough.

Anyhow, the final showdown is a straight rip off of Kojima, and it's glorious. I mean, Abby should be dead halfway across the shore from all the cuts she has, but whatever. It's desperate, it is brutal and you can see every bit of complex emotion on Ellie's face. If the rest of the game was this high quality in its storytelling, it would be my game of the year most likely. But it isn't. The scene is almost completely ruinged buy the one second flash of Jeol with his guitar. IF you wanted to do flashes, why not show the flashes of all the people Ellie has murdered? SHow how tired she is of the death, show her looking at Lev, show lev begging for her to stop so she sees herself. Show ANYTHING.

But even with that, I can't say I didn't feel that I kind of understood her stopping. In that scene, in that desperation, in that moment, she felt empty, and I did too. It worked more or less as intended. But that's the problem. The ending worked. even as she gets home and has the best flashback in the game, the best acting of Troy Baker's career is in just a half dozen or so lines, and it is touching, and heartbreaking. It's beautiful. But the journey to get there was so uneven that the game as a whole still fails. And it's a damn shame.

Final thoughts
I understand why some people like the game, even love it. The highs are exceptionally high. The only performances that have come close to this are late game Death stranding, and those didn't have the actual writing to back them up. If LoTU was paced better, it would have been a masterpiece. If Seattle had a reason to exist narratively, if the emotional journey of Ellie was a journey and not just a half dozen pit stops, this would have been something special. But it's not. 90% of this story is either nonsensical or worse unnecessary. Taken on their own the dozen or so amazing scenes can be shown as effective storytelling. But a game is more than the sum of its parts. And sometimes, it is even less.

I wish TLoU2 was a better game than it was, but all we are left with is unfulfilled potential.

TL;DR TLoU2 is a mess. It is at the same time the most impressive narrative I have seen and the worst. Ending is the best part. But the game is 90% filler.
 
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PanzerAzel

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Oct 31, 2019
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I saw this on comment on youtube regarding Joel being so laid back around the WLF - and it makes sense...

When people say "that's out of character for Joel he doesn't trust anyone"..............how would you rewrite it? Would you have just added a scene of him whispering to Tommy "i'm not sure about these people".....................because the way it went: they had just saved Abby, taken shelter at HER recommended hideout.......and there's a dozen infected on the front door (more than the ones set on fire) and a blizzard. You think he's gonna jump out that window with Tommy when they aint lookin? It's either risk a bunch of people you don't know or risk infected and a blizzard.....

All the characters have changed somehow in the sequel, but naturally I feel.

I could answer that comment's question and tell you exactly how I'd re-write it, and it wouldn't at all be difficult to do. It's very simple, actually: have Abby and her crew save Joel and Tommy instead of vice versa. That would've immediately created a situation where:

1) Joel and Tommy, having seen the good intentions of complete strangers put forth to risk themselves to save their lives, would've been far more likely to have dropped their guard instead of presuming innocuous intent of them simply from THEIR good intent.

2) also have placed them in a situation where they didn't have a say as to whether they were surrounded and at a great disadvantage, they simply would've been at this group's mercy by nature of being rescued.

This would've been far more plausible, and it would've remained consistent with the previous characterization of Joel and Tommy. You remember....the guy who ran over a seemingly helpless man in the street, and the other who held Ellie and Joel at gunpoint for being even near his gate? But no, instead they willingly walk into a situation for which they knew absolutely nothing about, surrounded by armed strangers in a merciless, "I got mine" world, introduce themselves, and further (and more ludicrously) immediately invite them back to their settlement, potentially placing many others' lives and their refuge at risk by exposing it and giving these people an inside look at its defenses, resources, and numbers. An offer, btw, that was made before they even knew everyone's name.

If anyone thinks that's good, consistent writing......well......you do you. To me, it's fucking terrible writing, laughably so.
 
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Umbral

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I saw this on comment on youtube regarding Joel being so laid back around the WLF - and it makes sense...



All the characters have changed somehow in the sequel, but naturally I feel.

I think they could have just given us more than 3 minutes playing as Joel and during that time demonstrate that he has softened and/or is getting sloppy.
 

ZZZZ

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ZZZZ

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Here's a fan translation of a Korean Film Critic talking about the game.


The game drew a conclusion that most people would hate. It made people who played the last game feel dirty. The problem is why ND and Neil Druckmann made this decision. Before answering that question, this has to be pointed out: Neil Druckmann's attitude.

The attitude where he tries to teach the user base, acting like what was mentioned above were his intentions after all. There seems to be some of you who are upset about these parts as well.

However, it's really understandable that Neil Druckmann shows such an attitude, because the cat's out of the bag already. From his perspective, if he apologizes now, what difference does that make? So there's only one thing left.

"I'm right. You're wrong."

"You attack me, then you're narrowminded."

So what caused him to make this decision? Because he's a SJW who's crazy about the PC culture? I don't believe so, because, to be honest, the problems this game has is not about PC but rather about mockeries and insults it shows to the user base. The answer is quite simple: TLOU was too exceptional and well-received.

TLOU was a masterpiece with the perfect ending. The depth of the story is unmeasurably deep, but they made it without a sequel in mind. Now, ND has to make a sequel. What should they do?

Neil Druckmann and co couldn't come up with a way to overcome TLOU. They couldn't come up with a better work than that. There’s a time limit, and they have to make a sequel. So Neil Druckmann chooses the worst decision imaginable.

"If I can't overcome TLOU, let's deny it altogether."

Yeah, so Neil Druckmann denied the bond between Joel and Ellie. He denied the ending from TLOU. He denied Joel's decision. He dumbed down Joel, who was clever, afraid of people more than the infected, and killed him off with a golf club to the head. All because he couldn't come up with a character better than Joel. The utter defeat and inferiority complex he must have felt for being unable to come up with a character better than Joel led to the current situation. So he spat on Joel, because he wanted to vent out his frustration against the fans who loved his previous work. So he beat up Ellie like that.

He couldn't do all that alone, so he forced the players to be his accomplice.

For Abby, an uninteresting character he created for his sequel, he shamefully borrowed the user's hands to defeat Ellie, and denied the first game to turn Ellie into a loser.

The creative ceiling for Neil Druckmann is Abby. Just look at her. No charms whatsoever despite being a new character. The story has no charms either. I can feel the shock and despair he must have felt after writing this story. As a result, he attacked you.

"TLOU? It's nothing. You're stupid to call such a work a masterpiece."

"Abby's right. Abby's the real protagonist."

Something like that.

Of course, his creativity is too shallow that "the real protagonist" ended up being just a female-version of another Joel-wannabe. The frustration and inferiority complex he felt led him to set up Abby as someone who's polar opposite to Ellie. An uninteresting character like her could be created because she had to be stronger than Ellie while being different from her. She's just Ellie's antithesis.

You've just witnessed the end of a writer who found his ceiling, which he tried to overcome in a twisted way and miserably failed.

This is like a suicidal move to a writer. Look at Abby, who'd ever love her? Why isn't she lovely you might ask. That's because Neil Druckmann himself doesn't love her. How'd a character be interesting, if she was created solely to bash Joel's skull and overcome Ellie? Uncharted 4 was well made but the story itself was just another Hollywood action film. In my opinion, the plots Neil Druckmann comes up with are below average. TLOU was a great work beyond his abilities and he ended up destroying it with his own hands. Without the sequel he would've been honored as one of the greatests, now all that's left is a medal in mental gymnastics.

I don't want to see his tweets nor his interviews; they aren’t worth my time. I've seen the likes of him in my field of work already. What's sad is no one tried to stop him while he was showing a twisted desire of this level. If he had a good friend, could all this have been prevented?

Edit: Link to video
 
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Valentino

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I could answer that comment's question and tell you exactly how I'd re-write it, and it wouldn't at all be difficult to do. It's very simple, actually: have Abby and her crew save Joel and Tommy instead of vice versa. That would've immediately created a situation where:

1) Joel and Tommy, having seen the good intentions of complete strangers put forth to risk themselves to save their lives, would've been far more likely to have dropped their guard instead of presuming innocuous intent of them simply from THEIR good intent.

2) also have placed them in a situation where they didn't have a say as to whether they were surrounded and at a great disadvantage, they simply would've been at this group's mercy by nature of being rescued.

This would've been far more plausible, and it would've remained consistent with the previous characterization of Joel and Tommy. You remember....the guy who ran over a seemingly helpless man in the street, and the other who held Ellie and Joel at gunpoint for being even near his gate? But no, instead they willingly walk into a situation for which they knew absolutely nothing about, surrounded by armed strangers in a merciless, "I got mine" world, introduce themselves, and further (and more ludicrously) immediately invite them back to their settlement, potentially placing many others' lives and their refuge at risk by exposing it and giving these people an inside look at its defenses, resources, and numbers. An offer, btw, that was made before they even knew everyone's name.

If anyone thinks that's good, consistent writing......well......you do you. To me, it's fucking terrible writing, laughably so.

Some fair and understandable scenarios.
However, I think everyone's forgetting the set up.........they are over run with infected.
If Joel and Tommy save Abby - the infected are still present. I don't see why Joel and Tommy wouldn't help if they saw a screaming woman being overun with infected. Apart from the WLF jacket she wore which could raise questions upon further inspection, she could still have possibly been from Jackson - so they helped. Just because Joel doesn't trust anyone I think it's a stretch to assume every single action he takes is solely on his "I don't trust this person" outlook. That scene just didn't warrant any questioning who Abby was at that moment in time. But at least they got Abby to take some infected down.
Game scenario: Joel and Tommy save Abby - she turns a shotgun on Joel - "WTF"
Your scenario: WLF save Joel and Tommy - Abby turns gun on Joel - "WTF"
Both work in the situation of being over run with infected............but saving someone for them to shoot you in the leg hits way harder. That plot choice was done for a reason. Otherwise they could have just written the WLF infiltrating Jackson camp and killing Joel. But that's a build up. What we got was surprising and shocking for anyone who didn't look at spoilers (honestly don't know why anyone would do that)

So this entire scenario doesn't even compare to Joel running over an 'injured' man on the streets in the first game, because Joel has been in that situation before and knows what will happen.
So they didn't "walk" into this situation - Joel, Tommy and Abby were all in the same boat. they are overrun, there's a storm, Abby says she's got a place - what do you do? There's no way out of either situation. They helped each other.

That whole set up never made me think "Joel wouldn't do that!"............. I know Joel from one flippin game and I didn't write the character and no the ins and outs of his character come part 2. Which is why I get confused people thinking they've got his character down to a T


I'm sure they still point guns at anyone coming close to Jackson too.
 
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scalman

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Saw 2 dogs with 2 enemies close to each other, dropped molotov on them, all burned and screamed , no problem with that action.
hate that area with dogs, i would hate game it it would be more of those , good that its not.
 
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Steve.1981

Unconfirmed Member
I watched his initial playthrough and I thought he was going to rip this game apart.

Interesting take.

That was another fair, well considered analysis of the game. From a huge fan of the studio, who made the now infamous "Naughty Dog Agenda" video quite some time before all of the part 2 controversy blew up.
 
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Steve.1981

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Anyone read this theory about the end?

That's really cool, if true.

I played the game twice & never noticed. Maybe because both times I was just too busy wondering why a right handed guitarist would even try to play full chords with 2 fingers missing on their left hand.
 
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Jon Neu

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So Owen's character only wants an eye for an eye for several reasons. He doesn't want the ENTIRE FUCKING TOWN OF JACKSON looking for revenge for them killing a bunch of people, making it 1 person cause doubt and allows the town to weight in if such a personal conflict is WORTH the whole town going to war. (This is actually questioned many times in letters based on FEDRA fighting WLF, fighting SCARS etc)

Thank you for pointing out how DUMB the game is, even if that wasn’t your intention.

Yes, Owen doesn’t want any problems with the people of Jackson, he has a child on the way, you know?

That’s why they are going to let them go back to Jackson; the brother and the surrogate daughter of the man they tortured to death while the girl was shouting she was going to kill them all. The girl and the brother who have seen our faces, we are sending them back to Jackson. They are SMART soldiers with HEARTS.

It’s not like they can kill both the brother and the girl and nobody then will ever know who killed them. They could easily feed their corpses to the infected and literally all their problems would have dissapeared.

But no, the plot requires for Ellie and Tommy to be alive, so let’s make the characters DUMB.
 
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Its strange to me that a lot of people who claim to love the first game so much seem to have very little understanding of its characters and their motivations. Its like all they recall is a good feeling they had, saving Ellie from the Fireflies by murdering the shit out of everyone.

It goes without saying that is not reflective of what TLOU was all about.

Ellie's defining characteristic is her survivor's guilt. Even before it was really nailed down and fleshed out in Left Behind (the name being kinda on-the-nose!) its a running thread throughout the game. Its the root of her "it can't all have been for nothing" thoughts near the end of the story.

Thinking about Joel's lie in that context, you realize this is a big fucking thing for Ellie as a character.

In the sequel you see her discover the truth in spite of Joel's best intentions because in the end he did more than "save" Ellie in Salt Lake City, he single-handedly destroyed the Fireflies and that's a hard thing to hide.

We see the start of this at the end of the long flashback at the end of her Seattle Day 1. After the long, lovely trip through the dinosaurs and the imaginary launch sequence in the capsule, the action moves to the second building and a dark walk-through sequence with slogans emblazoned on walls, leading to the corpse of the disillusioned Firefly.

This is a very important sequence. Long story short though it echoes Ellie "it can't all have been for nothing" whilst driving home the point that the Firelies are no more and "There is no light".

Its pretty chilly stuff, especially as it suggests that without victory, there can be no absolution for crimes committed in the name of that cause. Only double damnation.

But anyway, the point is that when Ellie eventually discovers the truth about what happened... its an utterly brutal existential blow to her. Her reaction to hate Joel for the next 2 years is entirely understandable.

No matter how much you like Joel as a character or agree with his decision to save her, this is the absolutely the right response from Ellie dramatically based on what we know of her from the first game. Its uncomfortable and downbeat but its right.

And this is I guess the problem a lot of people have with TLOU2. It makes sense from Ellie's perspective, but from Joel's... not so much.

That long museum cut-scene is a perfect microcosm of this. The first half is how Joel (and his fans) want it to be, the second half is the grim reality.
 
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bishopcruz

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Its strange to me that a lot of people who claim to love the first game so much seem to have very little understanding of its characters and their motivations. Its like all they recall is a good feeling they had, saving Ellie from the Fireflies by murdering the shit out of everyone.

It goes without saying that is not reflective of what TLOU was all about.

Ellie's defining characteristic is her survivor's guilt. Even before it was really nailed down and fleshed out in Left Behind (the name being kinda on-the-nose!) its a running thread throughout the game. Its the root of her "it can't all have been for nothing" thoughts near the end of the story.

Thinking about Joel's lie in that context, you realize this is a big fucking thing for Ellie as a character.

In the sequel you see her discover the truth in spite of Joel's best intentions because in the end he did more than "save" Ellie in Salt Lake City, he single-handedly destroyed the Fireflies and that's a hard thing to hide.

We see the start of this at the end of the long flashback at the end of her Seattle Day 1. After the long, lovely trip through the dinosaurs and the imaginary launch sequence in the capsule, the action moves to the second building and a dark walk-through sequence with slogans emblazoned on walls, leading to the corpse of the disillusioned Firefly.

This is a very important sequence. Long story short though it echoes Ellie "it can't all have been for nothing" whilst driving home the point that the Firelies are no more and "There is no light".

Its pretty chilly stuff, especially as it suggests that without victory, there can be no absolution for crimes committed in the name of that cause. Only double damnation.

But anyway, the point is that when Ellie eventually discovers the truth about what happened... its an utterly brutal existential blow to her. Her reaction to hate Joel for the next 2 years is entirely understandable.

No matter how much you like Joel as a character or agree with his decision to save her, this is the absolutely the right response from Ellie dramatically based on what we know of her from the first game. Its uncomfortable and downbeat but its right.

And this is I guess the problem a lot of people have with TLOU2. It makes sense from Ellie's perspective, but from Joel's... not so much.

That long museum cut-scene is a perfect microcosm of this. The first half is how Joel (and his fans) want it to be, the second half is the grim reality.

Ellie's reaction was never the problem. He lied to her for years and she is pissed. I think it could have been handled better, and the scene where the lie was revealed was kinda a wet fart. Way too short, and needed a lot more of a conversation providing her with context. Honestly, I think it and the museum sequence should have opened the game. Cut from the firefly logo to two years later and do the Ellie zombie tutorial section in the hospital. Then have the talk that Joel has with Tommy happen more with Ellie. The scene doesn't need much, just maybe another minute or so, but as it is it just feels so truncated.
 
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Steve.1981

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Its strange to me that a lot of people who claim to love the first game so much seem to have very little understanding of its characters and their motivations. Its like all they recall is a good feeling they had, saving Ellie from the Fireflies by murdering the shit out of everyone.

It goes without saying that is not reflective of what TLOU was all about.

Ellie's defining characteristic is her survivor's guilt. Even before it was really nailed down and fleshed out in Left Behind (the name being kinda on-the-nose!) its a running thread throughout the game. Its the root of her "it can't all have been for nothing" thoughts near the end of the story.

Thinking about Joel's lie in that context, you realize this is a big fucking thing for Ellie as a character.

In the sequel you see her discover the truth in spite of Joel's best intentions because in the end he did more than "save" Ellie in Salt Lake City, he single-handedly destroyed the Fireflies and that's a hard thing to hide.

We see the start of this at the end of the long flashback at the end of her Seattle Day 1. After the long, lovely trip through the dinosaurs and the imaginary launch sequence in the capsule, the action moves to the second building and a dark walk-through sequence with slogans emblazoned on walls, leading to the corpse of the disillusioned Firefly.

This is a very important sequence. Long story short though it echoes Ellie "it can't all have been for nothing" whilst driving home the point that the Firelies are no more and "There is no light".

Its pretty chilly stuff, especially as it suggests that without victory, there can be no absolution for crimes committed in the name of that cause. Only double damnation.

But anyway, the point is that when Ellie eventually discovers the truth about what happened... its an utterly brutal existential blow to her. Her reaction to hate Joel for the next 2 years is entirely understandable.

No matter how much you like Joel as a character or agree with his decision to save her, this is the absolutely the right response from Ellie dramatically based on what we know of her from the first game. Its uncomfortable and downbeat but its right.

And this is I guess the problem a lot of people have with TLOU2. It makes sense from Ellie's perspective, but from Joel's... not so much.

That long museum cut-scene is a perfect microcosm of this. The first half is how Joel (and his fans) want it to be, the second half is the grim reality.

As one of those people who claims to love the first game, I can tell you that I actually like the flashback scenes with Joel & Ellie. It makes sense to me that Ellie behaves like an angry teenager, shouting "You ruined my life/death! I hate you!!" While Joel behaves like the loving, protective father that he is. He doesn't want to cause her any hurt & when she's lashing out at him, he takes it. He still protects her instinctively. Then later when she's calmed down a bit he tells her simply, "I'd do it again" because he loves her & that's all there is to it. It's good stuff that stays true to the characters at the end of part 1. Took me a while to see it though.

The Fireflies though? I'm not as impressed with how part 2 portrays them. I felt like I was meant to see them as some noble, organised group that were a kind of inspiration, or something along those lines. That's not how I remember them in part 1. I remember incompetent domestic terrorists who were almost completely wiped out before Joel even met Ellie. I remember monsters who were ready to murder a child in a desperate Hail Mary. I feel like part 2 really wanted to make them into something they never were, for some reason.
 
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Woggleman

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THat sex scene was anti-climactic. I expected some big hardcore porn and it was a big nothing burger. It was very tame.
 
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THat sex scene was anti-climactic. I expected some big hardcore porn and it was a big nothing burger. It was very tame.
Compared to real porn for sure.

But for a video game, seeing a flat chested she-man get rammed up the ass is pretty eye popping.
 
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bishopcruz

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THat sex scene was anti-climactic. I expected some big hardcore porn and it was a big nothing burger. It was very tame.
I dunno. I found it hilarious. That was the most awkward sex scene I have seen this side of BloodRayne the movie. Out of fucking nowhere. It was just awful.
 

PanzerAzel

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Some fair and understandable scenarios.
However, I think everyone's forgetting the set up.........they are over run with infected.
If Joel and Tommy save Abby - the infected are still present. I don't see why Joel and Tommy wouldn't help if they saw a screaming woman being overun with infected. Apart from the WLF jacket she wore which could raise questions upon further inspection, she could still have possibly been from Jackson - so they helped. Just because Joel doesn't trust anyone I think it's a stretch to assume every single action he takes is solely on his "I don't trust this person" outlook. That scene just didn't warrant any questioning who Abby was at that moment in time. But at least they got Abby to take some infected down.
Game scenario: Joel and Tommy save Abby - she turns a shotgun on Joel - "WTF"
Your scenario: WLF save Joel and Tommy - Abby turns gun on Joel - "WTF"
Both work in the situation of being over run with infected............but saving someone for them to shoot you in the leg hits way harder. That plot choice was done for a reason. Otherwise they could have just written the WLF infiltrating Jackson camp and killing Joel. But that's a build up. What we got was surprising and shocking for anyone who didn't look at spoilers (honestly don't know why anyone would do that)

So this entire scenario doesn't even compare to Joel running over an 'injured' man on the streets in the first game, because Joel has been in that situation before and knows what will happen.
So they didn't "walk" into this situation - Joel, Tommy and Abby were all in the same boat. they are overrun, there's a storm, Abby says she's got a place - what do you do? There's no way out of either situation. They helped each other.

That whole set up never made me think "Joel wouldn't do that!"............. I know Joel from one flippin game and I didn't write the character and no the ins and outs of his character come part 2. Which is why I get confused people thinking they've got his character down to a T
We know what we have to work with. Rescuing Abby I've no problem with, agreeing to go with her to be outnumbered in a situation they've no idea of what it entails is what is a far stretch. I think Joel and Tommy are willing to open themselves up, but they are also very discretionary in what situations they allow themselves to get into. That's how they've survived.

What hit people harder was inconsistent characterization. I know the choice was done for a reason, but it was flawed in its execution in ignoring and/or dismissing a major aspect of character continuity in the process for nothing more than expediency of plot impetus. Joel and Tommy 100% willingly walked into a situation they knew nothing about in a merciless world where they've lived through experiences to teach them as much, and they fully understood how desperate and two-faced people could get to survive because they played that very role. They're not naive, trusting dopes as they were portrayed to be.

Aside, it's not necessary to operate in this context, a re-write is a re-write. The scene should've begun when Joel, Tommy, Abby and her crew ran behind the fence and they Molotov'd the hoarde. Great, Abby's crew rescued them, all's grand.
As one of those people who claims to love the first game, I can tell you that I actually like the flashback scenes with Joel & Ellie. It makes sense to me that Ellie behaves like an angry teenager, shouting "You ruined my life/death! I hate you!!"
Considering the gravitas of the lie and the implications it held, this should've gutted Ellie to the core. There are things that are so heavy that they transcend anger to immense sorrow, resignation, depression, and a deep contemplation that takes time to grasp. I could understand her being initially angry, but the scene where she's still snappy to Joel like some upset teenager years past his admittance of his lie fully failed to convey the gravity of their conflict, the ramifications of the lie, or the process of Ellie's grief in the acceptance of it. Ellie would be mourning her loss very deeply, not still holding some infantile, petty grudge and snapping out at Joel like a daughter who's been grounded from attending the prom. I think realistically, she'd be very sad, wary, and reserved around Joel. She'd be hurt. Anger has its time and place, but it's typically a very superficial, immediate, and impulsive emotional response that soon fades into a much deeper reflection and process of coping with loss that such a immense revelation would cause, and I found myself rolling my eyes at the scene Joel defended her and Dina.
 
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PanzerAzel

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Ellie's reaction was never the problem. He lied to her for years and she is pissed. I think it could have been handled better, and the scene where the lie was revealed was kinda a wet fart. Way too short, and needed a lot more of a conversation providing her with context. Honestly, I think it and the museum sequence should have opened the game. Cut from the firefly logo to two years later and do the Ellie zombie tutorial section in the hospital. Then have the talk that Joel has with Tommy happen more with Ellie. The scene doesn't need much, just maybe another minute or so, but as it is it just feels so truncated.
I don’t know, I think a much more effective way to reveal the lie would’ve been similar to the telling of it: have Joel tell her, show Ellie for a moment leaving her reaction largely in ambiguity, cut to black, and let the audience’s imagination take over. That’d be a bit too predictable though, considering they’ve already done it once.

The under-capitalization of the lie feels like one of the largest missed home runs in narrative gaming history. It could’ve, and should’ve, played a central role in this story. It would’ve forced Ellie to confront the stages of grief and created conflict in her feelings towards Joel, which could’ve been intertwined in a revenge plot. Along with Marlene, who I thought Ellie was close to and looked as as sort of a surrogate mother after her real one died, yet not a word spoken about her.
 

bishopcruz

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The under-capitalization of the lie feels like one of the largest missed home runs in narrative gaming history. It could’ve, and should’ve, played a central role in this story. It would’ve forced Ellie to confront the stages of grief and created conflict in her feelings towards Joel, which could’ve been intertwined in a revenge plot. Along with Marlene, who I thought Ellie was close to and looked as as sort of a surrogate mother after her real one died, yet not a word spoken about her.
Apparently in canon Marlene wasn't all that close to Ellie, she watched over her from afar, and did care about her, but being Queen Firefly always came first. I think she only met Marlene like a year before the first game, I could be wrong there though. Like I said, I think her being pissed about the lie just fits her character. She has survivor's guilt and has ever since she was bit. She wants her life to mean something, but doesn't understand that it already does. She doesn't have perspective yet.
 
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bakedpony

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Loved the game, definitely will be awhile before something else moves me like that.

I just dont't get what all the SJW nonsense drama is all about. Yes there are gay and bi characters, yes the cast is diverse with a lot of Asians (cool for me!). Is it because of Lev? I really didnt't find anything that had AGENDAS being shoved my throat.

Abby's half is the better half surprisingly gameplay wise.
 
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Steve.1981

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Considering the gravitas of the lie and the implications it held, this should've gutted Ellie to the core. There are things that are so heavy that they transcend anger to immense sorrow, resignation, depression, and a deep contemplation that takes time to grasp. I could understand her being initially angry, but the scene where she's still snappy to Joel like some upset teenager years past his admittance of his lie fully failed to convey the gravity of their conflict, the ramifications of the lie, or the process of Ellie's grief in the acceptance of it. Ellie would be mourning her loss very deeply, not still holding some infantile, petty grudge and snapping out at Joel like a daughter who's been grounded from attending the prom. I think realistically, she'd be very sad, wary, and reserved around Joel. She'd be hurt. Anger has its time and place, but it's typically a very superficial, immediate, and impulsive emotional response that soon fades into a much deeper reflection and process of coping with loss that such a immense revelation would cause, and I found myself rolling my eyes at the scene Joel defended her and Dina.

I think I get what you're saying, where you're coming from.

As an example, on first view I felt that line from Ellie at the end, when Joel said "I would save your life again if I had the chance" & she replied "I don't know if I can ever forgive that..." was a little bit ridiculous, but I've made my peace with it now. I just look at what I think is the meaning behind that scene now. She was getting over her anger & resentment. Deep down she knew that she wanted to reconcile with Joel. Same with the scene at the party. I think they wanted to show Ellie still keeping Joel at a distance there, but feeling guilty about it because she could see that he's just her dad. Nothing more. What dad would let their child be killed, for any reason, if they could stop it. She told him to stay with her in one of part 1's best scenes. She told him she needed him & would only feel less safe without him.

I've said it a couple of times now. The game had good ideas, but messed up in it's execution of a lot of them.
 

Jon Neu

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In real life all criminals leave no witnesses? What? You must be missing the part where these characters aren't meant to be morally repugnant, moustache-twirlingly evil characters and recognized their revenge is for nothing if they become as bad as him.

Hahahahaha what?

They are soldiers who kill and torture people on a daily basis, they are soldiers who willingly pertain to an organisation that kills children and they know it. They are soldiers who went into a quest to murder this man and then get out and get back to their lives without being noticed. They are soldiers who live their lives on the basis of: it's either them or us to rationalize make all kinds of fucked up things.

The lives of some strangers they just met should mean nothing to them, especially when let them live means all their lives and their organization are in serious danger (fun fact: they all get murdered for it). And Owen has a baby coming, but he somehow cares more about being "good" to some strangers that are screaming their deaths than his survival and the survival of his wife and unborn baby.

It's just retarded writing 101.
 
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Zimmy68

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I finished the game on Monday.
I really liked it but understand the criticism. I fall in line with what Angry Joe says but would give it 8/10.
The writing was the real issue, and the biggest problem I had with it was the zero remorse by Abby and her crew.
Abby didn't earn anything from me. I don't understand why it was OK to torture Joel when all he did was save Ellie.

Don't feel bad for Druckmann, he wanted all this attention.

But I have to give a huge kudos to the game for a couple of things...
I have been playing since release and it was odd that there hasn't been any patches (except the day one).
And New Game Plus ready to go on day one. 99% of the time, that is patched in much later.
 
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Valentino

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We know what we have to work with. Rescuing Abby I've no problem with, agreeing to go with her to be outnumbered in a situation they've no idea of what it entails is what is a far stretch. I think Joel and Tommy are willing to open themselves up, but they are also very discretionary in what situations they allow themselves to get into. That's how they've survived.

What hit people harder was inconsistent characterization. I know the choice was done for a reason, but it was flawed in its execution in ignoring and/or dismissing a major aspect of character continuity in the process for nothing more than expediency of plot impetus. Joel and Tommy 100% willingly walked into a situation they knew nothing about in a merciless world where they've lived through experiences to teach them as much, and they fully understood how desperate and two-faced people could get to survive because they played that very role. They're not naive, trusting dopes as they were portrayed to be.

Gods honest truth, the first time I played it, It didn't ring in my head "oh Joel, what are you doing? This isn't what you'r character would do"............. I know Joel from one game, a game which he had much development, but I only know him from the first game circumstances. Everyone is settled in Jackson - there's even a note in the hotel flashback scene (finding strings chapter) which drives this home:

Sorry if our patrol overwhelmed you yesterday, we don't run in to new people too often, I understand why you might have been nervous to follow us to Jackson. But it really is a nice place.................................................... My boys are different people here. Before Jackson, we were so focused on staying alive, I didn't like who they were becoming, they started acting like the people we were running away from. These days they're on roofs fixing holes, digging trenches. Hard work, but they come home every night excited about building this place up. They've got community. A reason to be accountable....... "

I'm on my second playthrough now - and I still didn't question his choice. We're talking about deep characters with established traits and realistic emotions and feelings...... but it's still a fictional character. It's still a polygon character being written by another human being on what they think this written character would do, would say, would act, how they'd evolve and change. But I guess I could have someone argue "No that's just poor writing and an oversight on his character" .................. but after 6 years of living in Jackson and well I guess getting older, Joel seemed softer to me anyway.

edit: Okay so I just went back to that level, I'm sorry, I don't buy that it's inconstant characterisation or even an oversight. They are overrun badly with infected. And they take a massive risk either way - getting back to Jackson - risky, getting to the lodge with Abby - risky. Trust or not, there's only 2 choices, and choosing to ditch Abby and go back to Jackson sounds true to Joel's character right? Because, "he doesn't trust people, he knows better"
Keep in mind, there are just people trying to survive. Not everyone is in factions. They saw a lone woman on her own being attacked by infected.

Joel - "That (door) ain't gonna hold, we gotta go back"
Tommy - "We ain't gonna outrun them all the way to Jackson, we need to barricade that door"
Joel - "Tommy we can not stay here"
Tommy - "The horses ain't making it all that way!"
Abby - "My friends! My friends are in a mansion just north of here. It's fenced in. The perimeters are secure"

Sounds like Joel wants to get back to Jackson. But they wont make it. So.....what's the options?

That's enough for me. I can't figure out why everyone needs more characterisation to understand why they go along with Abby.

People saying it would have made more sense for Abby to save Joel and Tommy because it would give them a reason to trust Abby and her group is ridiculous. Joel and Tommy chose to save her. "Merciless world" or not, you wouldn't think saving a lone stranger would lead them to shooting a gun at your leg.

I dunno, we could go back and forth dissecting how a character should act, or be or how things should have been told :messenger_grinning_sweat:
 
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Jon Neu

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But I have to give a huge kudos to the game for a couple of things...
I have been playing since release and it was odd that there hasn't been any patches (except the day one).
And New Game Plus ready to go on day one. 99% of the time, that is patched in much later.

I guess it's easier to have all of that when you ship without a multiplayer.

Also, I really loved the Uncharted 4 "cheats" such as bullet time, infinite ammo, choosing any weapon and things like that. I would have loved to have those options in this game too after finish it.
 

Eiknarf

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I guess it's easier to have all of that when you ship without a multiplayer.

Also, I really loved the Uncharted 4 "cheats" such as bullet time, infinite ammo, choosing any weapon and things like that. I would have loved to have those options in this game too after finish it.
Wait WHAT?
Uncharted 4 has bullet time??? How do I do it?
 

Sethbacca

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If by a small chance Abby is back in the third you think she will have the same body at the end or will she bulk up once she meets up with the fireflies?

It feels like they've set her up for a spin off series like they did with Lost Legacy. It seems to me like the Joel/Ellie story is done unless they make the sequel about them going to capture Ellie for experimentation or something.
 

Woggleman

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If they make a spin off Lev should be immune and the newly formed fireflies want to do the same thing that they did to Ellie which would ironically put her in the same position as Joel.
 

Keihart

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Here's a fan translation of a Korean Film Critic talking about the game.


The game drew a conclusion that most people would hate. It made people who played the last game feel dirty. The problem is why ND and Neil Druckmann made this decision. Before answering that question, this has to be pointed out: Neil Druckmann's attitude.

The attitude where he tries to teach the user base, acting like what was mentioned above were his intentions after all. There seems to be some of you who are upset about these parts as well.

However, it's really understandable that Neil Druckmann shows such an attitude, because the cat's out of the bag already. From his perspective, if he apologizes now, what difference does that make? So there's only one thing left.

"I'm right. You're wrong."

"You attack me, then you're narrowminded."

So what caused him to make this decision? Because he's a SJW who's crazy about the PC culture? I don't believe so, because, to be honest, the problems this game has is not about PC but rather about mockeries and insults it shows to the user base. The answer is quite simple: TLOU was too exceptional and well-received.

TLOU was a masterpiece with the perfect ending. The depth of the story is unmeasurably deep, but they made it without a sequel in mind. Now, ND has to make a sequel. What should they do?

Neil Druckmann and co couldn't come up with a way to overcome TLOU. They couldn't come up with a better work than that. There’s a time limit, and they have to make a sequel. So Neil Druckmann chooses the worst decision imaginable.

"If I can't overcome TLOU, let's deny it altogether."

Yeah, so Neil Druckmann denied the bond between Joel and Ellie. He denied the ending from TLOU. He denied Joel's decision. He dumbed down Joel, who was clever, afraid of people more than the infected, and killed him off with a golf club to the head. All because he couldn't come up with a character better than Joel. The utter defeat and inferiority complex he must have felt for being unable to come up with a character better than Joel led to the current situation. So he spat on Joel, because he wanted to vent out his frustration against the fans who loved his previous work. So he beat up Ellie like that.

He couldn't do all that alone, so he forced the players to be his accomplice.

For Abby, an uninteresting character he created for his sequel, he shamefully borrowed the user's hands to defeat Ellie, and denied the first game to turn Ellie into a loser.

The creative ceiling for Neil Druckmann is Abby. Just look at her. No charms whatsoever despite being a new character. The story has no charms either. I can feel the shock and despair he must have felt after writing this story. As a result, he attacked you.

"TLOU? It's nothing. You're stupid to call such a work a masterpiece."

"Abby's right. Abby's the real protagonist."

Something like that.

Of course, his creativity is too shallow that "the real protagonist" ended up being just a female-version of another Joel-wannabe. The frustration and inferiority complex he felt led him to set up Abby as someone who's polar opposite to Ellie. An uninteresting character like her could be created because she had to be stronger than Ellie while being different from her. She's just Ellie's antithesis.

You've just witnessed the end of a writer who found his ceiling, which he tried to overcome in a twisted way and miserably failed.

This is like a suicidal move to a writer. Look at Abby, who'd ever love her? Why isn't she lovely you might ask. That's because Neil Druckmann himself doesn't love her. How'd a character be interesting, if she was created solely to bash Joel's skull and overcome Ellie? Uncharted 4 was well made but the story itself was just another Hollywood action film. In my opinion, the plots Neil Druckmann comes up with are below average. TLOU was a great work beyond his abilities and he ended up destroying it with his own hands. Without the sequel he would've been honored as one of the greatests, now all that's left is a medal in mental gymnastics.

I don't want to see his tweets nor his interviews; they aren’t worth my time. I've seen the likes of him in my field of work already. What's sad is no one tried to stop him while he was showing a twisted desire of this level. If he had a good friend, could all this have been prevented?

Edit: Link to video
This read crazy and butthurt, wow.
The game it's very much about Joel and Ellie mostly, even Abby it's just there to contextualize Ellie's feelings.
 
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Keihart

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I guess it's easier to have all of that when you ship without a multiplayer.

Also, I really loved the Uncharted 4 "cheats" such as bullet time, infinite ammo, choosing any weapon and things like that. I would have loved to have those options in this game too after finish it.
Bruh....you can activate bullet time before even finishing TLoU2...
 
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bishopcruz

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This read crazy and butthurt, wow.
The game it's very much about Joel and Ellie mostly, even Abby it's just there to contextualize Ellie's feelings.

Not really, in fact looking at what has a lasting impact, Ellie just exists to push Abby's story forward. You could cut all of Seatlle, have Jessie killed in the opening, and cut to the farm and nothing changes. You can't say the same for Abby. Without Owen dying in particular she doesn't really have an impetus to the endgame. Though I suppose that is a bit of a stretch too. Abby and Ellie barely interact with each other at all. What a waste of time the bulk of this game is.
 
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Keihart

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Not really, in fact looking at what has a lasting impact, Ellie just exists to push Abby's story forward. You could cut all of Seatlle, have Jessie killed in the opening, and cut to the farm and nothing changes. You can't say the same for Abby. Without Owen dying in particular she doesn't really have an impetus to the endgame. Though I suppose that is a bit of a stretch too. Abby and Ellie barely interact with each other at all. What a waste of time the bulk of this game is.
This shit it's not rocket science but so many people seem to be blind to the obvious points made by the game. The WHOLE game it's about the last night before Joel dies. Everything that happens helps Ellie frame her conflict and come to terms with it. The world in TLoU1 and 2 it's only a background, both games are very much focused on the characters of Ellie and Joel.
Abby sections of the game are very much only there to make the player understand what Ellie can't until the end so the final scene it's framed correctly as something futile.