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After 60 Hades Runs, I can safely say Returnal is a bad Roguelike.

Kagero

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I agree with everything OP is saying but I prefer shooting over hack n slash, so Returnal wins for me. Totally different types of games IMO. It's like saying DMC is better than Gears of War.
 
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drotahorror

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Returnal was amazing and I love modern roguelikes/lites but yeah, Returnal was not a good roguelike. Great game, but awful when it comes to roguelike mechanics. Your gun is basically your build, there is no deviation or change up that makes your runs very impactful.

I agree with everything OP is saying but I prefer shooting over hack n slash, so Returnal wins for me. Totally different types of games IMO. It's like saying DMC is better than Gears of War.

Returnal was billed as a roguelike by the developers and should be compared as such. It's a great arcade sci-fi TPS, but a bad roguelike.
 
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partime

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I want to like Returnal, but can’t get past the 2nd boss. I’ve tried so many times, it’s so frustrating building up your character, getting health packs, but taking the shortcut to the boss (giving up respawn) only to die again!

At least with Hades I was able to rage quit once when the final boss regenerated his health.
 

SlimySnake

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You don't know what their existing dev project timeline looked like, so you're making some pretty sweeping unsafe assumptions.

Destiny is a finished game whose core design and mechanics were designed, polished, and set in stone literal years ago. It took them years to mature their dev pipeline to be able to deliver updates on the current 3 monthly cadence and even then they have issues and sometimes have to delay updates (Witch Queen is a good example).

You can't take anything about ease of development of certain perceptively "small" changes away from the current Destiny update cadence and extrapolate that to a completely different dev, with a completely different dev tool and production pipeline, working on their first major AAA game pre-release. That's extremely poor reasoning.

Housemarque has never made a game as big as Returnal before and 8 months to release of their first big AAA game they would have been content complete and well into polishing and playtesting required to meet their intended ship date. Don't forget, they have to go gold months before release to issue the code to Sony for certification and printing of the physical copies.

I think you're both wildly overestimating the capability of a dev like Housemarque to make small changes late in development, as well as wilding underestimating the amount of work that has to be done on a finished game prior to launch in an 8-month window.
Fine. It's been three months. Zero improvements to the end game. They need to get moving. There is lots to improve to make the end game better and they have Hades as a blueprint on exactly what makes rougelikes so good.
 

Bo_Hazem

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Not sure about Hades, but Overall I don't like reliability. So Returnal would be the one for me, although beaten it once within the first 11 hours which is a bit short to my liking. It was unique though, that's what I like about it.

Hades? I don't think I'll buy a 20min game. I don't have time for repeating the same shit again and again.
 
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Freeman76

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Hades is good but for me Returnal is just on an entirely different level. It had me sucked into it for so long, i did everything i could in that. Hades just doesnt have the same appeal at all for me.
 
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Fine. It's been three months. Zero improvements to the end game. They need to get moving. There is lots to improve to make the end game better and they have Hades as a blueprint on exactly what makes rougelikes so good.

In game dev terms, three months is nothing.
 

Yamisan

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Love Hades but its barely a rogue game. Its extremely even on the hardest settings. Probably the easiest game people call roguelike.
 
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Yamisan

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I love returnal but I agree in many ways. There's no real micro progression and runs can feel wasted while Hades feels like every run,no matter how poor will offer something to advance your skill set or story.
Thats because Hades is a Roguelite, it makes the player stronger every failed run making the game easier so that anyone can beat it. Its a baby rogue game
 

lh032

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i saw from other reddit post, they said returnal is better than hades as hades relies on even more RNG.
 
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I want to like Returnal, but can’t get past the 2nd boss. I’ve tried so many times, it’s so frustrating building up your character, getting health packs, but taking the shortcut to the boss (giving up respawn) only to die again!

At least with Hades I was able to rage quit once when the final boss regenerated his health.
I want to like Returnal, but can’t get past the 2nd boss. I’ve tried so many times, it’s so frustrating building up your character, getting health packs, but taking the shortcut to the boss (giving up respawn) only to die again!

At least with Hades I was able to rage quit once when the final boss regenerated his health.
Go on youtube brother and watch at least 2 different boss guides on the boss of second biome. Watch over and over until you memorize the pattern.

If it makes you feel better it took me forever to beat returnal. I literally treated it like an arcader. Also, even though I stocked up on items (Astronaut, full health bar, etc) I still only barely beat some of the bosses when it finally happened. Good luck.
 

Men_in_Boxes

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Theseus needs his own game. I skip most dialogue in the game but never when Theseus has the spotlight.
 

DenchDeckard

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Its very true, unlike you I've actually put a lot of time in the game since release day on the Switch. Its the easiest Roguelite ever made.

What's easy? You don't think you've got more powered up and better at the game from the time invested?

Easy to move the story on, easy to collect every possible gift to unlock all the conversations with every character? Easy to master all the weapons and offer the blood upgrades to improve the weapons? Easy to collect all the gems and diamonds to fully upgrade the various rooms etc?

What does returnal offer that is close to any of this? It's a bit harder because you don't have upgrades that you can keep for future runs? So you due from a shit randomly generated run and waste an hour or so because you gained absolutely nothing from that run that you can use for future attempts?

What is a good not easy roguelike?

It's a lot of questions but I'm interested because I've not played too many rogue likes but I know what an effing Inceedibley designed game is and one of them is Hades.
 

GHG

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Its very true, unlike you I've actually put a lot of time in the game since release day on the Switch. Its the easiest Roguelite ever made.

Show us your max heat runs.

We'll wait.
 

strange headache

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Hades was really good, but when it comes to item and gameplay variety, Binding of Isaac is still the absolute best roguelike.
 
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bajouras

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What's easy? You don't think you've got more powered up and better at the game from the time invested?

Easy to move the story on, easy to collect every possible gift to unlock all the conversations with every character? Easy to master all the weapons and offer the blood upgrades to improve the weapons? Easy to collect all the gems and diamonds to fully upgrade the various rooms etc?

What does returnal offer that is close to any of this? It's a bit harder because you don't have upgrades that you can keep for future runs? So you due from a shit randomly generated run and waste an hour or so because you gained absolutely nothing from that run that you can use for future attempts?

What is a good not easy roguelike?

It's a lot of questions but I'm interested because I've not played too many rogue likes but I know what an effing Inceedibley designed game is and one of them is Hades.

It is an easy roguelike comparing to games like Enter The Gungeon or even binding of isaac.
But the difficulty ties into other problems I'll get onto later.

For instance, I killed Hades' final boss in my 3rd or 4th run of the game. And I felt that all I had to do was spam my dash arround to get through the game. (even tho it might have not been like that, it felt that way).

Now lets take Enter the gungeon. I needed like 8 runs just to get past the first boss. The game is just more methodical and has less room for error. Its not like it lacks action. Its just that if you use the "dash" (its actually a roll) in ETG you have to comit to it. Its not spammable, at least not as much imo.

Now this ties into my main problem with the game. Sure you can get loads of weapon and perk combos. Sure you have loads of wonderfull dialog to listen to. But hell, why do I have to kill the same 4 bosses everytime. Sure in enter the gungeon you also have only 10 bosses or so to cycle through, but if the game is harder, you'll see thr same content less often.

Conclusion: I find that Hades is too forgiving and that makes me not like it as a roguelike.

Also, Returnal can also get quite easy with the right weapon. Like really broken easy.
 

edbrat

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Hades was easily my GotY last year and I'm still waiting for something to better Returnal this year, both games just feel so good. I love the way you get better run after run, comparing how I play now to my first run of returnal or after beating Hades a few times is some top-tier shit. Hades respects the player's time and really spoon feeds you that progression vibe so it works for non-roguelike obsessives. Returnal is more challenging and I can see how it will lose people along the way because it can be frustrating and learning what all the stuff does on that planet takes time, but so much about it blows me away from the sound design and atmosphere to the narrative and gameplay, and I still cannot stop playing it and I still have to work out how to succeed with the harder to use weapons. Saying it's bad compared to Hades just strikes me as a false dichotomoy, fine if it's your preference but they are both wonderfully well constructed games. The argument that Returnal is overhyped because of some PS5 game drought this year is laughable but not unexpected given the state of other consoles first party outputs, there is a ridiculous amount of choice these days and Returnal didn't even sell that well for a 1st party exclusive. It was never going to, what with being a reasonably challenging game in a niche genre but that's fine there are plenty of ubisoft type GaaS generic shitheaps with bonus monthly "skins" to get on with if you wish.
 

DenchDeckard

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It is an easy roguelike comparing to games like Enter The Gungeon or even binding of isaac.
But the difficulty ties into other problems I'll get onto later.

For instance, I killed Hades' final boss in my 3rd or 4th run of the game. And I felt that all I had to do was spam my dash arround to get through the game. (even tho it might have not been like that, it felt that way).

Now lets take Enter the gungeon. I needed like 8 runs just to get past the first boss. The game is just more methodical and has less room for error. Its not like it lacks action. Its just that if you use the "dash" (its actually a roll) in ETG you have to comit to it. Its not spammable, at least not as much imo.

Now this ties into my main problem with the game. Sure you can get loads of weapon and perk combos. Sure you have loads of wonderfull dialog to listen to. But hell, why do I have to kill the same 4 bosses everytime. Sure in enter the gungeon you also have only 10 bosses or so to cycle through, but if the game is harder, you'll see thr same content less often.

Conclusion: I find that Hades is too forgiving and that makes me not like it as a roguelike.

Also, Returnal can also get quite easy with the right weapon. Like really broken easy.

I'm a pretty good gamer but you must be genuinely a lot better than me. Hats off to you dude. I've still not even gotten to hades and I've lost count of how many runs I've done. I'll get there though haha.

I've got Enter the gungeon I should give it a proper go.
 
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bajouras

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I'm a pretty good gamer but you must be genuinely a lot better than me. Hats off to you dude. I've still not even gotten to hades and I've lost count of how many runs I've done. I'll get there though haha.

I've got Enter the gungeon I should give it a proper go.
Do it, its a lovely game!
Sometimes difficulty has to do with the type of gameplay. For instance, Enter the gungeon looks more like a bullet hell and that might not be for everyone's taste. So, it took a bit, but eventualy it just clicked and it made me feel like a badass.
Now if I take another hard game like dark souls, I suck hard at it.
 

balt1kr1s

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I will say straight away that I love roguelikes/lites games.
Played around 51 hours of Hades , killed both hidden bosses, killed Hades himself on extreme measures 4 (hard difficulty for bosses) and had more than enough to be fair.
This game gives you an amazing first impressions for 15-20 hours or until you finish it for the firdt time, but the more you play with pact of punishment the more you start to get bored. It’s cool to have that many options with weapons and their aspects but gameplay really doesn’t change much and rooms with enemies are way too similar, bosses are really easy except Hades who is a massive hp tank with 3 lives on extreme measures. Dialogues are really impressive but have no impact really with quite disappointing story conclusion to be fair.
So yeah, good little game but can’t agree on being some kind of goat, sorry but no chance, binding of Isaac is a king when it comes to variety of literally everything and Dead Cells nailed difficulty perfectly (and 2d pixel combat).

Returnal played 80+ hours and got platinum, enjoyed it tremendously.
It doesn’t have any expanded progression systems but it really does not need them.
Production value is just exceptional for rogue game, it’s AAA after all.
Gameplay is perfectly executed with dualsense and 3D audio - amazing immersion.
Biomes themselves, rooms and their interconnections are designed so well! You don’t mind dying and dying, especially when you meet all those amazing enemies, I really could not get enough of getting into last underwater biome.
Story, music and general atmosphere great as fuck.
But what it makes as good rogue game for me? Sense of danger, you are with constant feeling that you might die any moment within seconds or lose massive chunk of hp just to die few moments later, so you have to start over again. (Which is what Hades really lacks).

So yeah, Hades is good, but Returnal is the one which stole my heart this year when it comes to roguelikes.

Cant wait for Deathloop! Prey Mooncrash and Returnal gave me a lot of hope and have shown how big budget changes this genre in a good way (in my opinion)
 
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ethomaz

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What is a "Roguelike?


... yes I am that lazy.
No problem... most in this thread including the OP seems to lack understand of what is a Roguelike game.

Roguelike are the definition for games that have similar game mechanics than the very old Rogue game for UNIX from 1980... that game was strong based in the tabletop RPG Dungeons & Dragons.
The goal behind Rogue was to adventure in a dungeon with several levels, fighting monsters, acquitting gears and treasures.

But the key point that gives the Roguelike name was that your death was a permdeath, in others words when you die you reset your game loop to zero... so each new life (play thought) gives you random/different path, challenges, rewards, etc. There is no need to say Roguelike original vision has no save or checkpoints... you died that adventure you should start a new one.

Returnal is more Roguelike than Hades.

Actually Hades is called a Roguelite... and that includes games like The Binding of Isaac or Rogue Legacy... in these games you have a more light form of the "genre" where you can save, carry progress after death, etc.

In simple terms Roguelites games like Hades facilitates your post death... so they are more friendly to the player but they go against the key features of Roguelike games.

Edit - Colored to not get confusion at reading Roguelike and Roguelite.
 
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ZywyPL

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Without progression I'd never finish Hades even once, most likely I'd drop it within first 10 runs. I just cannot imagine dying and replaying the game over and over again, with exact same weapon, same story/cut-scenes/dialogues, same everything, it just doesn't make any sense.

Returnal IMO shouldn't be a rougelike at all to begin with, but a typical action TPS instead, with a deep story, equipment variety, and world exploration. Whenever I see the game I cannot fight the feeling that this should've been the Prometheus game, with the action taking place right after the end credits, where Elizabeth Shaw lands/crashes on an unknown world and tires to find a way back. But I guess Housemarque weren't ready to step out of their comfort zone yet.
 
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ethomaz

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Without progression I'd never finish Hades even once, most likely I'd drop it within first 10 runs. I just cannot imagine dying and replaying the game over and over again, with exact same weapon, same story/cut-scenes/dialogues, same everything, it just doesn't make any sense.

Returnal IMO shouldn't be a rougelike at all to begin with, but a typical action TPS instead, with a deep story, equipment variety, and world exploration. Whenever I see the game I cannot fight the feeling that this should've been the Prometheus game, with the action taking place right after the end credits, where Elizabeth Shaw lands/crashes on an unknown world and tires to find a way back. But I guess Housemarque weren't ready to step out of their comfort zone yet.
But that what Roguelike is.
You lose everything but the good thing is that the new life is different from the previous one… different story, different path, different dialog, different weapons, different itens, different rewards, etc.

Everything different.

That is what made Roguelike games cool.

Said that while Returnal is still a Roguelite like Hades but it incorporated more Roguelike features than Hades.
 
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DenchDeckard

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Not sure about Hades, but Overall I don't like reliability. So Returnal would be the one for me, although beaten it once within the first 11 hours which is a but short to my liking. It was unique though, that's what I like about it.

Hades? I don't think I'll buy a 20min game. I don't have time for repeating the same shit again and again.

This still blows my mind. Did you "complete it" as in made it through the first set of biomes and then got spat back out or did you make it through it all.

I'm now at the part where I have to collect some bits to get the real ending. What a game. Took me way more runs than your few.

...I suck!
 
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Bo_Hazem

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This still blows my mind. Did you "complete it" as in made it through the first set of biomes and then got spat back out or did you make it through it all.

I'm now at the part where I have to collect some bits to get the real ending. What a game. Took me way more runs than your few.

...I suck!

I first died in the beginning where you get that black and red monster because I was at critical health and he shat some acid so when I passed through him after killing him I died. Then died at the first challenge room as entered by mistake as thought it was the main mission. After that only died twice in one run that I used the reconstructor to comeback again without losing anything in the second biome and the 5th biome, so that run was around 8 hours with all possible side missions and killing all bosses except the challenge rooms (golden gates).
 

Con-Z-epT

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But I guess Housemarque weren't ready to step out of their comfort zone yet.
Housemarque went above and beyond their comfort zone with more ambition than ever for this game. You are just projecting your own desire into a game that didn't fit your average consumption.
 
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Not sure about Hades, but Overall I don't like reliability. So Returnal would be the one for me, although beaten it once within the first 11 hours which is a bit short to my liking. It was unique though, that's what I like about it.

Hades? I don't think I'll buy a 20min game. I don't have time for repeating the same shit again and again.
20 min? 🤭 Lets see you beat it in 20mins bruh
 

Rivet

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I preferred Returnal. I didn't like Hades 2D graphics (maybe because of the art style), I didn't care much for the story either (not a big fan of Americans constantly giving us Europeans new takes about our own Greek mythology, I thought the same about the first 3 GoW for what it's worth, GoW 2018 at least made some efforts). And I find the combat a bit repetitive after a while. 2D makes the rooms feel a bit samey. There's a certain lack of challenge on the long run too due to them constantly giving you more bonuses. Still a great game.

On the other hand, I cared about Returnal psychological horror story, graphics and sounds were obviously more impressive (with the bonus of 3D sound), and 3D allowed for more changes in rooms and biomes. Plus it had outdoors. Game also felt a bit more intense (which is increased by haptics) and challenging. Music was superior too and perfectly in sync with the story.

I disagree with the lack of progression too, it's just hidden in the vending machine near the ship which unlocks new and more powerful artefacts and items for future playthroughs. It's just the system is not well explained, so people wrongly think there's no progression, but there is a big progression, because later items are a lot more powerful than the first ones, and they drop in game in later runs if you unlock them once.

Both rated very well, but I would basically reverse rating between Returnal and Hades. Indies are generally rated higher compared to AAA so it makes sense though.

Returnal felt more unique, Hades felt like a great indie 2D game, or a great 2D rogue lite, but in both cases we already played dozens of those.
 
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Rivet

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Uh oh. You just criticized a Sony exclusive. That's a big no-no 'round these parts.

I don' t give a fuck If Nintendo, Ubi Soft or MS made the game, I just preferred that game. People have different taste, go figure.
 
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