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After 60 Hades Runs, I can safely say Returnal is a bad Roguelike.

Yoboman

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Thanks for reminding me.

Greg Kasavin is a legend in this industry. Perhaps the best game reviewer of all time and a superstar Indie Developer. What a treasure. Gamespot is a shadow of the site it once was without him at the helm.
He gave MGS3 an 8.7. Which was way off. But I remember Kojima saying that specific review is what led to the game finally getting a 3D camera which is cool
 

SlimySnake

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The way you spoke so authoritatively in your first message I would have sworn you actually beat Returnal. I’m sorry but I have found the exact inverse of what you’re saying to be true.

The production value and controls of Returnal are so far ahead of Hades that I almost think they aren’t comparable. I beat Returnal and played Hades out of curiosity. It was such a low budget indie experience I couldn’t enjoy it and uninstalled after a few hours.

I’ll get back to it eventually. However, it sounds like you’re more disappointed that you weren’t able to defeat Returnal than anything else. It’s simply not for the masses due to it’s difficulty and imo a lot of gamers that regard it so highly are treating it as somewhat of a rite of passage.
huh. Where did i say i couldn't beat returnal?

I beat the final boss four times.
 
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SlimySnake

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He gave MGS3 an 8.7. Which was way off. But I remember Kojima saying that specific review is what led to the game finally getting a 3D camera which is cool
he was just compensating for giving mgs2 a 9.6 in full sneaking gear lol
 

kyoji

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Returnal was a better game than Hades IMO. You just like to constantly crap on PS stuff. It's so blatant and extremely tiresome.

The story is FAR better in returnal. It's actually mature, and extremely well told. Similar to Silent Hill 2 in execution. You're wrong here. Hades is a comic book.

Who cares about weapon upgrade comparison? Returnal is more about getting good. It took me 40 some odd hours to complete my first entire run through of Returnal. Then I beat the entire game in one sitting from beginning to end without dying once. This was because of how much better I got at the game, which was much more satisfying to me than learning to use all the weapons in Hades.

Again on the progression. The progression should be within you. If you feel like you "wasted" your time because you died ... you're missing the point. BTW, I never had a run two hours long in Returnal that didn't result in some kind of gain (each Biome only takes about an hour to beat at MOST, and that's if you are slow), so you are either really bad at the game or not being entirely honest here to try and make a point.

Why should Returnal "learn" from Hades? It's entirely it's own thing. I'm glad it was different in the way it was. Why would I want Hades in a Sci Fi wrapper? I'll take the fresh, extremely well executed and fantastic experience that was Returnal every day of the week. I thought Hades was fantastic too, but I preferred Returnal.

And I'm certainly not gonna go out and take a dump on one at the expense of another.
SlimySnake SlimySnake i get that you have an opinion but this is part of mine ^ 💯💯

I hope you arent so dellusional that you think yours is a common take either theres plenty who think otherwise after completing both games. My biggest take away from your post is why does returnal have to be exactly the rougelike formula? Doesnt this create the copy pasta effect? And yet you same lot will come on here complain about things not being different or innovative enough.

Returnal is alot of things that pulls from various genres, to compare it or even expect it to be a carbon copy roguelike just shows you have no imagination at all. Just because it has certain elements from a genre does not mean it has to follow the rules, and thats apart of what makes it so fantastic, but im not trying to convince you otherwise. When the awards start to go out at years end from various gaming sites there will be alot of coping going around, you already see it happening now.
 
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Yeah, I love the core combat in Returnal. It isnt button mashy. It's challenging, and I really wanted to keep playing it, but lack of depth and progression just killed any desire I had to sit through 2 hour runs. The reason for posting this thread isnt clear from my OP, but I want these features implemented so I can go back and play it over and over again.

My bad. However, the emboldened statements led me to believe that you couldn’t hack it. I don’t understand why you beat the last boss in Returnal four times if you didn’t really enjoy it. Are you simply saying that you think Hades has more replay value?
 
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huh. Where did i say i couldn't beat returnal?

I beat the final boss four times.
Too late to edit my post.

But WTF? You beat Returnal four times but you wanted to keep playing it? What am I missing here? I beat the game one time and got the platinum in the end game. I guess I won’t know what you’re complaining about until I actually get more deeply into Hades.
 

V4skunk

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To start off, I loved Returnal. It had some fantastic combat mechanics, incredible atmosphere and is easily my runner up for GOTY as of now.

However, playing Hades over the last few weeks has made me realize just how flawed Returnal is when it comes to rougelikes, and it's infuriating that Hades came out almost 8 months before Returnal because Returnal took nothing from it.

Hades has a better end game. Better build variety. Better weapon variety. More depth. Better storytelling. More unlocks. Way better sense of progression. And best of all, the game saves whenever you enter a new room or die so you dont have to leave the game in rest mode and you cant save scum.

- Better Storytelling
Beating Hades does not mean you have seen the ending. The game continues to offer new story bits and dialogue every single time you beat the game. I am 60 runs in and still finding new dialogue. The story is also very well written by Greg Kasavin who should be well known to any of the Gamespot oldies here. I cannot tell wtf Returnal was about. I cant even tell you who the main character is and wtf those flashbacks were. I dont mind vague David Lynch stories, but there is a time and a place, and this is not it. If you fuck up a run, it's a waste because the story does not move an inch.

- Incredible Depth
I am 60 runs in and I havent unlocked everything yet. I am missing weapons. Weapon Upgrades. Companions who help out in battles. There is a whole secondary upgrade system I havent even touched yet. There are 10 different gods who offer different upgrade paths ingame so every run feels entirely different even if you take the same weapon over and over again. And they dont limit you to five upgrades per run like Returnal does. I can carry almost 30 boons at once. There is no penalty for taking every upgrade. In fact, they encourage it by offering you damage buffs for taking upgrades from multiple gods.

- Better Progression
This was my biggest gripe with Returnal at launch and something they didnt even bother fixing. There is just one progression system in Returnal. Your weapon perks. Nothing else. Hades lets you carry over 5 different currencies that let you upgrade 40 different skills, and 4 weapon perks per weapon. No run feels like a waste of two hours because you are always getting stronger. More attack power, more health, better RNG percentage, more spells, more everything.

It's frustrating that not only did they not learn from this amazing game, they also havent updated the game at all since release. Zero post launch support.
Binding of Isaac Repentance smokes them both.
 
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I didnt call the game bad. I said it's a bad rougelike.
Same thing. Contradictory. Doesn't make sense a game is both good and bad at the core of what it is at the same time. If it's bad at what it does, then how come you think it's good. I can't make sense of that. Very different games. I don't have anything else to add here. Take care.

PS. Read something above and had to come back to this. So you didn't beat Returnal? You should have said so in the OP, I wouldn't have wasted my time responding.
 
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SlimySnake

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My bad. However, the emboldened statements led me to believe that you couldn’t hack it. I don’t understand why you beat the last boss in Returnal four times if you didn’t really enjoy it. Are you simply saying that you think Hades has more replay value?
Too late to edit my post.

But WTF? You beat Returnal four times but you wanted to keep playing it? What am I missing here? I beat the game one time and got the platinum in the end game. I guess I won’t know what you’re complaining about until I actually get more deeply into Hades.
This is not that hard guys. I said it's a bad rougelike. The entire point of rougelikes is to replay them over and over. Beating a rougelike is only the beginning. The end game is literally what matters. This is especially true for Hades because you literally dont see the real ending until you beat the game for the 10th time. So the story continues after the first ending and moves ahead with each successful run. Even after the final ending there are several other storylines for other characters to complete. Side quests that result in new weapons, upgrades and companions. That's what a good rougelike does.

Returnal is NOT an action adventure game. Returnal cannot be judged as a metroidvania or a linear action adventure like Uncharted that you beat once and call it a day. It's a game that is meant to be played over and over again.
 

iHaunter

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To start off, I loved Returnal. It had some fantastic combat mechanics, incredible atmosphere and is easily my runner up for GOTY as of now.

However, playing Hades over the last few weeks has made me realize just how flawed Returnal is when it comes to rougelikes, and it's infuriating that Hades came out almost 8 months before Returnal because Returnal took nothing from it.

Hades has a better end game. Better build variety. Better weapon variety. More depth. Better storytelling. More unlocks. Way better sense of progression. And best of all, the game saves whenever you enter a new room or die so you dont have to leave the game in rest mode and you cant save scum.

- Better Storytelling
Beating Hades does not mean you have seen the ending. The game continues to offer new story bits and dialogue every single time you beat the game. I am 60 runs in and still finding new dialogue. The story is also very well written by Greg Kasavin who should be well known to any of the Gamespot oldies here. I cannot tell wtf Returnal was about. I cant even tell you who the main character is and wtf those flashbacks were. I dont mind vague David Lynch stories, but there is a time and a place, and this is not it. If you fuck up a run, it's a waste because the story does not move an inch.

- Incredible Depth
I am 60 runs in and I havent unlocked everything yet. I am missing weapons. Weapon Upgrades. Companions who help out in battles. There is a whole secondary upgrade system I havent even touched yet. There are 10 different gods who offer different upgrade paths ingame so every run feels entirely different even if you take the same weapon over and over again. And they dont limit you to five upgrades per run like Returnal does. I can carry almost 30 boons at once. There is no penalty for taking every upgrade. In fact, they encourage it by offering you damage buffs for taking upgrades from multiple gods.

- Better Progression
This was my biggest gripe with Returnal at launch and something they didnt even bother fixing. There is just one progression system in Returnal. Your weapon perks. Nothing else. Hades lets you carry over 5 different currencies that let you upgrade 40 different skills, and 4 weapon perks per weapon. No run feels like a waste of two hours because you are always getting stronger. More attack power, more health, better RNG percentage, more spells, more everything.

It's frustrating that not only did they not learn from this amazing game, they also havent updated the game at all since release. Zero post launch support.
I liked Returnal far more than Hades personally. It may need a different genre though, because it's definitely not a Rogue-like/lite. It feels different.

I played Hades for maybe 12 hours, I really could not like it at all.
 
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SlimySnake

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Same thing. Contradictory. Doesn't make sense a game is both good and bad at the core of what it is at the same time. If it's bad at what it does, then how come you think it's good. I can't make sense of that. Very different games. I don't have anything else to add here. Take care.

PS. Read something above and had to come back to this. So you didn't beat Returnal? You should have said so in the OP, I wouldn't have wasted my time responding.
Read better.
 

Chukhopops

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Pact of punishment is your answer here. Plenty of variety becomes available once you finish your first run and then it's down to how much difficulty you're willing to take.

There's also plenty of build variety. Each weapon aspect needs to be catered for differently and there are a ton of lengendary/duo boons to hunt down, some of which are game changers. If you're selecting the same boons over and over then that's on you, literally everything is viable in this game as long as you intelligently plan for it.

SlimySnake SlimySnake conpletely agreed BTW, said similar things in other returnal threads. While that game has great gameplay mechanics, as a rouguelike it really isn't up to standard.
I disagree about the boons, a lot of them are simple damage increases or status effects on each move type (your cast does X, your special does X, etc). Duo boons are more interesting but are rare occurences, outside of them only a couple really change the way you play fundamentally (like the one giving you life on hit but reducing health by 70%).

Even leaving the boons aside, there are no alternate routes, barely any variation between bosses, only a couple enemy types per level, etc.

The game is just one or two expansions away from being S-tier but right now Dead Cells, Isaac, Enter the gungeon, Risk of Rain and Risk of Rain 2 are better roguelites imo.
 

Balducci30

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Really didn’t like the returnal style - don’t plan on playing Hades as a result. Anything even close to that I don’t understand why people would want to play, it just isn’t fun for me at all. But to each their own
 

SlimySnake

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I have no idea why, but the terms "roguelike" and "roguelight" always make me cringe.

 
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This is not that hard guys. I said it's a bad rougelike. The entire point of rougelikes is to replay them over and over. Beating a rougelike is only the beginning. The end game is literally what matters. This is especially true for Hades because you literally dont see the real ending until you beat the game for the 10th time. So the story continues after the first ending and moves ahead with each successful run. Even after the final ending there are several other storylines for other characters to complete. Side quests that result in new weapons, upgrades and companions. That's what a good rougelike does.

Returnal is NOT an action adventure game. Returnal cannot be judged as a metroidvania or a linear action adventure like Uncharted that you beat once and call it a day. It's a game that is meant to be played over and over again.
Yes, some of your statements are hard to understand.

To be fair, I’ve heard the devs say they wanted the game to have infinite replay. I knew that wasn’t going to happen. However, what do you mean you can’t beat it once like Uncharted and call it a day? If that’s how I want to play it I simply don’t see the point of playing Returnal over and over again once I’ve completed it.

From what I’m gathering they are simply two separate approaches in the same genre. At the end of the day you simply prefer the approach of Hades and that’s fine.
 
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JustN82

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I've gotten to the point in Hades where I'm doing heat runs with all weapons and still love the game. I can also admit that I really miss playing Returnal. Once I got the platinum trophy I totally put it down. I do miss getting lost on that alien planet for an hour or two a day while hearing some of those scores playing.
 

SlimySnake

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SlimySnake SlimySnake i get that you have an opinion but this is part of mine ^ 💯💯

I hope you arent so dellusional that you think yours is a common take either theres plenty who think otherwise after completing both games.
I am baffled by this comment. I have no idea why you think I believe this is a common take nor do I think that people might feel differently from me. If I didnt want to hear different takes I would not have made this thread. If I thought this was a common take and a hundred threads had already been created comparing Hades and Returnal, I would not have posted this thread.

My biggest take away from your post is why does returnal have to be exactly the rougelike formula? Doesnt this create the copy pasta effect? And yet you same lot will come on here complain about things not being different or innovative enough.

Returnal is alot of things that pulls from various genres, to compare it or even expect it to be a carbon copy roguelike just shows you have no imagination at all. Just because it has certain elements from a genre does not mean it has to follow the rules, and thats apart of what makes it so fantastic, but im not trying to convince you otherwise. When the awards start to go out at years end from various gaming sites there will be alot of coping going around, you already see it happening now.

I said this earlier, but Returnal is a rougelike. It's sold as a rougelike. It's not meant to be an action adventure game like Uncharted. It's not an open world game like Horizon and Tsushima. It's not a GaaS game like Destiny. Or a Multiplayer game like Battlefield. It is and will be compared with other rougelikes. One of which just launched on consoles three weeks ago.

Anthem came out a few years after Destiny. It's a GaaS game that was compared with destiny. It lacked a raid which Destiny had pretty much made standard over the years. Even their DLCs included raids. It lacked any meaningful end game content. No end game strikes, no nightfalls, and they basically made you play the same three coop missions over and over again to get loot.

So if Anthem can be compared to Destiny and other GaaS games then Returnal can be compared to Hades. It's shortcomings should be discussed. Doesnt mean it has to be copy pasta. The fact that it is already a third person shooter means it's not a copy paste job. It's different. It's far more challenging. All I am asking is for it to be deeper. It's progression needs to be more fleshed out. Right now, the only progress you make is on weapon perks which themselves are not guaranteed to proc on your next run after you spend the entire run grinding for it.

I played FTL for 200 hours. After I beat the game for the first time, they unlocked ten different ships. Each ship had 2-3 layouts with different weapons and crew. The game was tailored to be replayed. That's what rougelikes are meant to do. Focus on the end game so that when you beat the game in a few hours, the real value comes from mastering it and seeing what other things the game has to offer.
 
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GHG

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I disagree about the boons, a lot of them are simple damage increases or status effects on each move type (your cast does X, your special does X, etc). Duo boons are more interesting but are rare occurences, outside of them only a couple really change the way you play fundamentally (like the one giving you life on hit but reducing health by 70%).

Even leaving the boons aside, there are no alternate routes, barely any variation between bosses, only a couple enemy types per level, etc.

The game is just one or two expansions away from being S-tier but right now Dead Cells, Isaac, Enter the gungeon, Risk of Rain and Risk of Rain 2 are better roguelites imo.

I'm not sure how much you've messed around with what's available during endgame (after you beat hades once) but it's sounding to me like you haven't.

I get a duo boon pretty much every run now, you've just got to look at the codex and plan around it based on what the game throws your way in terms of the first few god doors. Same goes for the legendary boons after you've fully upgraded the mirror. I've done over 100 runs and still not managed to mess around with all the boons available in the game. Chasing boon combinations that you think will have nice synergy with the weapon (and aspect) you're playing with is what makes this game. It's diablo-lite.

Calling the boons "stat boosters" is laughable, the only stat boosting boons come from the gates of chaos and pretty much every other boon (even the basic and special attack ones) come with some sort of perk that can be built around.

The "boon" you mentioned is actually a hammer artifact and only available as a modification for the sword. There are plenty of weapon aspects to unlock, each of which requires a different play style for that weapon in order to be effective.

Plenty of boss variety and enemy combination modifiers available via the pact of punishment. The game leave it up to you as to how much end game variety (and difficulty) you do or don't get. If you just run out with the default setups all the time then yeh, you're gonna get the same thing over and over again.
 
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Ogbert

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Returnal is not a rogue like.

There is zero build variation of consequence. There is next to zero carry over or reward mechanic for slowly developing your character (again, of consequence).

It’s an arcade game with a few traits to pursue. The malignancy mechanic is absolutely bloody awful.

Amazing mechanics. Bad game design.
 

Aion002

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Really didn’t like the returnal style - don’t plan on playing Hades as a result. Anything even close to that I don’t understand why people would want to play, it just isn’t fun for me at all. But to each their own
It's kinda like the old arcades type of game: Insert a coin and try to finish it or get as far as you can.

The main difference is that you have unlimited coins and get some upgrades per run, while every stage is a little different, making it more challenging and fun.

The main thing is the gameplay, if you like it and enjoys the challenge you will have fun, otherwise no one's can make you like this type of game.

Anyway, Returnal is a game inspired by roguelike, while Hades is a roguelike classic type of game. Comparing both is kinda futile.
 
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To start off, I loved Returnal. It had some fantastic combat mechanics, incredible atmosphere and is easily my runner up for GOTY as of now.

However, playing Hades over the last few weeks has made me realize just how flawed Returnal is when it comes to rougelikes, and it's infuriating that Hades came out almost 8 months before Returnal because Returnal took nothing from it.

Hades has a better end game. Better build variety. Better weapon variety. More depth. Better storytelling. More unlocks. Way better sense of progression. And best of all, the game saves whenever you enter a new room or die so you dont have to leave the game in rest mode and you cant save scum.

- Better Storytelling
Beating Hades does not mean you have seen the ending. The game continues to offer new story bits and dialogue every single time you beat the game. I am 60 runs in and still finding new dialogue. The story is also very well written by Greg Kasavin who should be well known to any of the Gamespot oldies here. I cannot tell wtf Returnal was about. I cant even tell you who the main character is and wtf those flashbacks were. I dont mind vague David Lynch stories, but there is a time and a place, and this is not it. If you fuck up a run, it's a waste because the story does not move an inch.

- Incredible Depth
I am 60 runs in and I havent unlocked everything yet. I am missing weapons. Weapon Upgrades. Companions who help out in battles. There is a whole secondary upgrade system I havent even touched yet. There are 10 different gods who offer different upgrade paths ingame so every run feels entirely different even if you take the same weapon over and over again. And they dont limit you to five upgrades per run like Returnal does. I can carry almost 30 boons at once. There is no penalty for taking every upgrade. In fact, they encourage it by offering you damage buffs for taking upgrades from multiple gods.

- Better Progression
This was my biggest gripe with Returnal at launch and something they didnt even bother fixing. There is just one progression system in Returnal. Your weapon perks. Nothing else. Hades lets you carry over 5 different currencies that let you upgrade 40 different skills, and 4 weapon perks per weapon. No run feels like a waste of two hours because you are always getting stronger. More attack power, more health, better RNG percentage, more spells, more everything.

It's frustrating that not only did they not learn from this amazing game, they also havent updated the game at all since release. Zero post launch support.

I agree. I still like Returnal better though. It’s more fun to “play”. Has better controls/feedback. Has better atmosphere, and in general is just more my kind of vibe.

Returnal tried to be different in that it provides more risk (thus more negative builds), but the balance feels off.

Hades strikes the right balance in making most choices positive, with the chaos risk system not being overly negative.

it also strikes a better balance of not feeling like a run is a waste of time. There’s far more persistent rewards and things to unlock and upgrade. Hades feels like a game that embraces the fact that it wants you to die a lot. Returnal just demands more perfection and caution, but dying is more of a deflating experience whereas in Hades dying is a new opportunity to buff you character with the loot you just won from your previous attempt
 

kyoji

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I am baffled by this comment. I have no idea why you think I believe this is a common take nor do I think that people might feel differently from me. If I didnt want to hear different takes I would not have made this thread. If I thought this was a common take and a hundred threads had already been created comparing Hades and Returnal, I would not have posted this thread.



I said this earlier, but Returnal is a rougelike. It's sold as a rougelike. It's not meant to be an action adventure game like Uncharted. It's not an open world game like Horizon and Tsushima. It's not a GaaS game like Destiny. Or a Multiplayer game like Battlefield. It is and will be compared with other rougelikes. One of which just launched on consoles three weeks ago.

Anthem came out a few years after Destiny. It's a GaaS game that was compared with destiny. It lacked a raid which Destiny had pretty much made standard over the years. Even their DLCs included raids. It lacked any meaningful end game content. No end game strikes, no nightfalls, and they basically made you play the same three coop missions over and over again to get loot.

So if Anthem can be compared to Destiny and other GaaS games then Returnal can be compared to Hades. It's shortcomings should be discussed. Doesnt mean it has to be copy pasta. The fact that it is already a third person shooter means it's not a copy paste job. It's different. It's far more challenging. All I am asking is for it to be deeper. It's progression needs to be more fleshed out. Right now, the only progress you make is on weapon perks which themselves are not guaranteed to proc on your next run after you spend the entire run grinding for it.

I played FTL for 200 hours. After I beat the game for the first time, they unlocked ten different ships. Each ship had 2-3 layouts with different weapons and crew. The game was tailored to be replayed. That's what rougelikes are meant to do. Focus on the end game so that when you beat the game in a few hours, the real value comes from mastering it and seeing what other things the game has to offer.
Mikael Haveri said:



In general, what happens when you play more and more, it opens more pathways for you to choose to take and build your strategy. So for example, after you’ve defeated the first boss [for the first time], the portal to the next biome opens and stays open for your next sessions. Doing that, you can always go back to the boss, gear up, get a lot of health upgrades, level up your character and proficiency and weapons. All these things add up to making the run ahead of you that bit easier.
It’s sort of catering to a lot of different tastes. The rogue-like name may be intimidating, but in the end, it’s a third person shooter with a lot of cool variety.
 

SlimySnake

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I disagree about the boons, a lot of them are simple damage increases or status effects on each move type (your cast does X, your special does X, etc). Duo boons are more interesting but are rare occurences, outside of them only a couple really change the way you play fundamentally (like the one giving you life on hit but reducing health by 70%).

Even leaving the boons aside, there are no alternate routes, barely any variation between bosses, only a couple enemy types per level, etc.

The game is just one or two expansions away from being S-tier but right now Dead Cells, Isaac, Enter the gungeon, Risk of Rain and Risk of Rain 2 are better roguelites imo.

I'm not sure how much you've messed around with what's available during endgame (after you beat hades once) but it's sounding to me like you haven't.

I get a duo boon pretty much every run now, you've just got to look at the codex and plan around it based on what the game throws your way in terms of the first few god doors. Same goes for the legendary boons after you've fully upgraded the mirror. I've done over 100 runs and still not managed to mess around with all the boons available in the game. Chasing boon combinations that you think will have nice synergy with the weapon (and aspect) you're playing with is what makes this game. It's diablo-lite.

Calling the boons "stat boosters" is laughable, the only stat boosting boons come from the gates of chaos and pretty much every other boon (even the basic and special attack ones) come with some sort of perk that can be built around.

The "boon" you mentioned is actually a hammer artifact and only available as a modification for the sword. There are plenty of weapon aspects to unlock, each of which requires a different play style for that weapon in order to be effective.

Plenty of boss variety and enemy combination modifiers available via the pact of punishment. The game leave it up to you as to how much end game variety (and difficulty) you do or don't get. If you just run out with the default setups all the time then yeh, you're gonna get the same thing over and over again.
Yep. I get what Chukhoppa is trying to say. At the end of the day, your goal is to get the max DPS for the final boss after all, but in my experience, the boon system keeps thing fresh and different on every run. For example, last night, I unlocked the final aspect of the gloves. It maims people, they do double damage to you. I had no intention of completing the run so i chose a random keepsake to upgrade and started a run just so I can reset the conversations back in the hub.

Well, one thing led to another and all of a sudden I found myself with an incredible build with deflect on my attack, knock on my special, almost 20% extra dodge, water splash damage perks, wall damage perks and some sick artemis crits that made killing everyone so much fun I saw it through. And this happens all the time. The other day, my rail gun turned into a killing machine thanks to some random boons from Ares, Zeus and Artemis without even planning. I did not take any keepsakes so the build organically came together despite a lack of planning to play a certain way.
 
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jdforge

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Jul 20, 2004
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It’s odd because the main flaw of Hades is that it lacks run variety and after a while feels a bit same-ish (same bosses, not a lot of room layouts, etc.). It lacks the crazy factor that other games offer.

How hot did you run?
 
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Rykan

Member
Jul 26, 2021
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I'll give Returnal a try the moment they add a mid run save so I can quit the game. There's no reason not to have it and I simply won't consider buying the game until it's there.
 

bitbydeath

Member
Nov 25, 2015
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Binding of Isaac Repentance smokes them both.
Came here to see if anyone would compare it against the best. I don’t like Hades art style. Still waiting for Repentance to come to consoles.
 
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amigastar

Member
May 14, 2018
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Still have Hades in my Game Library but haven't played it for too long. Maybe i should give it another shot.
 

Men_in_Boxes

Banned
May 31, 2020
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He gave MGS3 an 8.7. Which was way off. But I remember Kojima saying that specific review is what led to the game finally getting a 3D camera which is cool

I tried to look this up. I think it was Jeff Gerstmann who gave MGS an 8.5. He should probably be cancelled for that.
 

CitizenZ

Member
Jan 14, 2021
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Addicted to Hades currently. Never liked a single roguelike like I do this game.

I just had the same epiphany with Tainted Grail. I have tried probably 10 of the most highly rated CB games and this one hooked me in like no other.
 

Velius

Member
Dec 22, 2016
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No shit. Sony fans had to grab onto something at launch because of the news that GoW and Horizon 2 will be PS4 games, so they made Returnal out to be the second coming of Jesus. Unless you hate religion then it's like a party with Satan
 
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Tschumi

Gold Member
Jul 4, 2020
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Plays a game 60 times.

Tells us he likes this game a lot.

Where's my bagel...
 
Aug 24, 2021
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I've gotten to the point in Hades where I'm doing heat runs with all weapons and still love the game. I can also admit that I really miss playing Returnal. Once I got the platinum trophy I totally put it down. I do miss getting lost on that alien planet for an hour or two a day while hearisome of those scores playing.

I’m like yourself…once I get that platinum I’m done. This is across the board for me.
Returnal is less roguelike and more arcade. If you stop thinking it like a roguelike in the same vein as dead cells and hades, you’ll enjoy the game.
Dead accurate!!!

No shit. Sony fans had to grab onto something at launch because of the news that GoW and Horizon 2 will be PS4 games, so they made Returnal out to be the second coming of Jesus. Unless you hate religion then it's like a party with Satan

You’re CLUELESS!!
 
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TexMex

Member
Aug 30, 2019
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Hades is the better game. But Hades existing and being better does not make Returnal bad. They’re both great.
 

Hugare

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Sep 8, 2019
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Apples and oranges. I love them both.

Hades is much more "friendly", in every way. Story, gameplay, progression ...

Returnal is much more unforgiving, and thats fine. Its part of the experience, but its a more demanding game to get into.

I preffer Returnal's gameplay, by a lot.
 
Aug 24, 2021
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Hades is the better game. But Hades existing and being better does not make Returnal bad. They’re both great.
It’s probably the better rogue-like. As far as moment to moment gameplay Returnal is far superior. I honestly couldn’t get into Hades not based on it’s own mechanics but because I was expecting something like Returnal. The truth is that they are so different that comparing the two is a disservice to each.
 
Mar 7, 2017
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I've played enough Destiny to see that small changes to systems, in game currency and RNG can be made within months. It's fairly common in GaaS games to repurpose currency to offer better progression.

Here is what they could've learned from Hades:

Extra lives - In Hades, you can upgrade your extra lives with currency you earned in the last run. Up to 3 extra lives. In returnal, rng dictates if you get even one extra life because the currency is tied to each run. Simply offering a shop at the start of the run is not a big thing that would take years.

Removing health from the loot pool - this is another bizarre decision that limited your upgrade options because there is no way you would never buy Any upgrades over the heath upgrades. By making health a permenant upgrade like Hades, you open up new build possibilities.

Removing malfunctions from the game until the end game- Hades has negative modifiers too but they are much better implemented since you pick them at the start and thus they don't end up diluting the loot pool in the game. 50% of the chests in returnal are malfunctions which makes no sense.


These are all things that can be easily implemented. This has been done in other games DLCs with just 3 months of dev time.
You don't know what their existing dev project timeline looked like, so you're making some pretty sweeping unsafe assumptions.

Destiny is a finished game whose core design and mechanics were designed, polished, and set in stone literal years ago. It took them years to mature their dev pipeline to be able to deliver updates on the current 3 monthly cadence and even then they have issues and sometimes have to delay updates (Witch Queen is a good example).

You can't take anything about ease of development of certain perceptively "small" changes away from the current Destiny update cadence and extrapolate that to a completely different dev, with a completely different dev tool and production pipeline, working on their first major AAA game pre-release. That's extremely poor reasoning.

Housemarque has never made a game as big as Returnal before and 8 months to release of their first big AAA game they would have been content complete and well into polishing and playtesting required to meet their intended ship date. Don't forget, they have to go gold months before release to issue the code to Sony for certification and printing of the physical copies.

I think you're both wildly overestimating the capability of a dev like Housemarque to make small changes late in development, as well as wilding underestimating the amount of work that has to be done on a finished game prior to launch in an 8-month window.
 

Jaysen

Member
Mar 19, 2021
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It only took me 25 Hades runs to be completely bored of it. It took me 180 hours before I was bored of Returnal. Returnal is a better game and a better rogue IMO.
 

jigglet

Member
May 18, 2020
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That's some pretty high praise. Is Hades on Switch any good? Or should I stick with the high framerate versions?