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About the Ending of The Last of Us Part II [Spoilers]

BluRayHiDef

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Ellie doesn't kill Abby at the end because upon experiencing flashbacks of Joel and thinking about what he meant to her, she realizes what Abby's father must have meant to Abby.

Joel killed Abby's father, which drove Abby to kill Joel; as much as Ellie misses Joel, she understands why Abby killed him and accepts it.
 

Ulysses 31

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There's still the issue in the way Abby killed Joel, beating him to death like that with a golf club and in front of her warrants a response.

During the Abby section she gets rescued from hanging and disembowelment and she goes to great length to return the favor, with Joel and Tommy who she owes her life to, it never seems to cross her mind.
 
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Shantae

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Don't know if mods will keep this thread around since we already have a spoiler thread, but Abby really should have gotten killed. She was irredeemable from inception, or at the very least in execution. She killed Joel in front of a begging Ellie, and we're supposed to sympathize with this bitch that is mad because her own father got killed? Instead of being angry with Joel, maybe show some humanity and empathize with Ellie who is begging you NOT to kill her father.
 

Jon Neu

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Ellie doesn't kill Abby at the end because upon experiencing flashbacks of Joel and thinking about what he meant to her, she realizes what Abby's father must have meant to Abby.

Joel killed Abby's father, which drove Abby to kill Joel; as much as Ellie misses Joel, she understands why Abby killed him and accepts it.

That’s the most stupid shit ever.

This stranger who brutally murdered my surrogate father and that she is a total psycho had suffered too, I will leave her be and stop suddenly to be a total psycho myself so we can have this profound subverting your expectations ending.

Well, kill yourself then, because you have killed hundreds and hundreds of people who had family, friends and so on.
 
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Ulysses 31

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Don't know if mods will keep this thread around since we already have a spoiler thread, but Abby really should have gotten killed. She was irredeemable from inception, or at the very least in execution. She killed Joel in front of a begging Ellie, and we're supposed to sympathize with this bitch that is mad because her own father got killed? Instead of being angry with Joel, maybe show some humanity and empathize with Ellie who is begging you NOT to kill her father.
Abby was willing to kill a pregnant Dina in front of her as well and only stops because of Lev.
 

BluRayHiDef

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Don't know if mods will keep this thread around since we already have a spoiler thread, but Abby really should have gotten killed. She was irredeemable from inception, or at the very least in execution. She killed Joel in front of a begging Ellie, and we're supposed to sympathize with this bitch that is mad because her own father got killed? Instead of being angry with Joel, maybe show some humanity and empathize with Ellie who is begging you NOT to kill her father.
I can't post in that thread.
 

BluRayHiDef

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Don't know if mods will keep this thread around since we already have a spoiler thread, but Abby really should have gotten killed. She was irredeemable from inception, or at the very least in execution. She killed Joel in front of a begging Ellie, and we're supposed to sympathize with this bitch that is mad because her own father got killed? Instead of being angry with Joel, maybe show some humanity and empathize with Ellie who is begging you NOT to kill her father.

Wow, so she's supposed to just accept that Joel killed her father? Wouldn't you want revenge if someone killed your loved one (may that never happen)?
 

Shantae

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Wow, so she's supposed to just accept that Joel killed her father? Wouldn't you want revenge if someone killed your loved one (may that never happen)?
You're missing the point of what I'm saying. Getting revenge is one thing, but ignoring the pleas of someone who is basically in the same position as you are, she's going to do that to someone else also? She acts all surprised later on when Ellie just didn't walk away either when she came after her.

You ignored the word I said also, why didn't she feel any EMPATHY with Ellie being right there. Sure, if she had come across Joel and he was just on his own, I can understand her going through with it, but she had Joel's pleading surrogate daughter there. You would think that might trigger some emotion in her, because she realizes that she's going through the same pain. That type of complexity is clearly beyond the idiot writers of this game.

Joel was the type of character who might have not killed her father if the pleas of his own daughter were right there. That's why Joel and Ellie are infinitely more likable, and why everyone hates Abby. Abby was selfish, and didn't even consider anyone else's feelings but her own. That's why she's unlikable, and unrelate-able, no matter how much they force the player to play as her.
 
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captainraincoat

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The game itself is great from a gameplay and graphics point of view but the story is total shit

Let’s take a loved character from the first game with a deep established relationship and kill him off in brutal fashion....it then forces you to play as that character and really gives you fuck all reasons to be sympathetic towards her except for a short chapter in a zoo which does nothing to embed the relationship of the character motivation to kill someone in that fashion.

It’s a shit story period and you can see why the sudden sjw smokescreen went up as people are pissed off
 

BluRayHiDef

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Would you show not an ounce of gratitude when someone saves your life 10-15 min before? Would that not factor into your decision making?

That doesn't change that he killed her father. She's been angry about that fact for five years and can't let her anger go.
 

Ulysses 31

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That doesn't change that he killed her father. She's been angry about that fact for five years and can't let her anger go.
Would show that Joel's not some mindless killer and that perhaps he had a reason for doing what he did.

She shows gratitude to others who saved her, but with Joel that's all null and void?
 
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Shantae

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Would show that Joel's not some mindless killer and that perhaps he had a reason for doing what he did.

She shows gratitude to others who saved her, but with Joel that's all null and void?
Again, these writers are hacks. They wanted the story to go where they wanted it to go, regardless of the complexity of human emotion or thought processes. Joel was going to die, and they just filled in the blanks on how he got there.
 

captainraincoat

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That doesn't change that he killed her father. She's been angry about that fact for five years and can't let her anger go.
It doesn’t explore that however...it does not show how she went from young girl to she hulk.....you get no context around her obsession to kill Joel....just a quick chapter in a zoo which does fuck all

The dog had more character build up than she did
 

BluRayHiDef

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It doesn’t explore that however...it does not show how she went from young girl to she hulk.....you get no context around her obsession to kill Joel....just a quick chapter in a zoo which does fuck all

The dog had more character build up than she did
I don't think that there needs to be a deep exploration of why someone would be hellbent on exacting revenge against the person who killed their father. The father-daughter relation suffices as an explaination.
 

SirKicksalot

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dude what if revenge bad lmao

What's being missed here is that revenge is not an all-or-nothing option. Ellie doesn't have to go eye-for-eye to get her catharsis. IRL a successful revenge is not a cycle specifically because it gets the point across, the point being "don't fuck with me".

In the end she makes the choice the game says is correct but she's worse off than before. Great thematic coherence bro. At this point the theme is perverted into "don't ever act upon blind impulse", which makes sense in isolation but not as the grand moral of the previous 20 hours that were leading up to another moral.

The ending only makes sense if the player already believes what the ending tries to say - revenge is bad and the cycle is inevitable.

Also TLOU2 was written backwards because the whole point of Abby's appearance throughout the game is to lead into a shocking visual moment that acts as a deterrent to what the game forces you to do.
 
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Ulysses 31

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I don't think that there needs to be a deep exploration of why someone would be hellbent on exacting revenge against the person who killed their father. The father-daughter relation suffices as an explaination.
There does need to be an explanation for Abby's willingness to take a bullet, and miss any opportunity for revenge, from her faction's leader to protected someone who saved her and with Joel who saved her she remains so brutal.
 

BluRayHiDef

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dude what if revenge bad lmao

What's being missed here is that revenge is not an all-or-nothing option. Ellie doesn't have to go eye-for-eye to get her catharsis. IRL a successful revenge is not a cycle specifically because it gets the point across, the point being "don't fuck with me".

In the end she makes the choice the game says is correct but she's worse off than before. Great thematic coherence bro. At this point the theme is perverted into "don't ever act upon blind impulse", which makes sense in isolation but not as the grand moral of the previous 20 hours that were leading up to another moral.

Ellie still exacts some form of revenge, however.

The purpose of revenge is for one party to inflict pain and suffering on another party for transgressions that the latter has committed against the former, and most people consider death as the ultimate form of pain and suffering. However, there is no pain and suffering in death, as death is just non-existence. In actuality, the ultimate form of pain and suffering is life - that is to say, life after having lost loved ones. Hence, many of the killings that Ellie commits in order to find Abby comprise the very revenge that she seeks to exact against Abby because they are the killings of Abby's loved ones.
 
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plasmawave

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Don't know if mods will keep this thread around since we already have a spoiler thread, but Abby really should have gotten killed. She was irredeemable from inception, or at the very least in execution. She killed Joel in front of a begging Ellie, and we're supposed to sympathize with this bitch that is mad because her own father got killed? Instead of being angry with Joel, maybe show some humanity and empathize with Ellie who is begging you NOT to kill her father.
Gee, maybe, you know, that's the theme of the game???
 

toker818

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This game has a lot of unlikable characters Dina, Jesse, mel, Owen, lev and of course the shemale also its really annoying with all its flashbacks and flash forwards in the end I hated everyone including ellie
 
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BluRayHiDef

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This game has a lot of unlikable characters Dina, Jesse, mel, Owen, lev and of course the shemale also its really annoying with all its flashbacks and flash forwards in the end I hated everyone including ellie
What's the problem with Dina? I like her; she's a headstrong but laidback character. I don't see the issue with her.
 

Halo is Dead

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That ending is garbage. She literally held a knife up to Lev's throat and said "no fight me, you brought him into this" and minutes later she just gives up. You would at least have a point if she had flashbacks of her brutally killing all of her friends and realizing she is just a fucked up monster but Druckman thinks he is some kind of genius for subverting our expectations. She even gave up her relationship with Dina to get revenge and your are telling me she magically felt empathy for Abby? lol no
 
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Jon Neu

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What's the problem with Dina? I like her; she's a headstrong but laidback character. I don't see the issue with her.

She has zero charisma and it’s a clear token ugly lesbian to make people like Anita Sarkeesian feel good because diversity and real women™.

When they slept together and the camera points to her hairy armpits and her smug face, I almost threw up.

And it’s funny, because the girl they modelled Dina after it’s kind of cute and sexy, but the game version it’s so hard to look at.

Again, Anita commands that videogames should be filled with ugly slob looking women and Cuckmann’s delivers her dreams.

Feminism!
 

Bryank75

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The fact that Abby was willing to give up Ellies life for a cure but when it was her fathers life that was taken...... she shows herself to be the ultimate hypocrite.

She is utterly irredeemable and I really feel that the story is very transparent with how it works so so hard to try and make you like her or empathize some way.

It's a shame..because the gameplay, graphics, sound and level design are incredible... it is a 95+ game until you consider the story and dialogue.

The story is a huge step down from the first game... I don't understand why there is all this shitty teenage romance story crap shoved in here. It was not part of the first game.
 
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BluRayHiDef

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She has zero charisma and it’s a clear token ugly lesbian to make people like Anita Sarkeesian feel good because diversity and real women™.

When they slept together and the camera points to her hairy armpits and her smug face, I almost threw up.

And it’s funny, because the girl they modelled Dina after it’s kind of cute and sexy, but the game version it’s so hard to look at.

Again, Anita commands that videogames should be filled with ugly slob looking women and Cuckmann’s delivers her dreams.

Feminism!

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder; I think that Dina is attractive (and that she's got the cakes :messenger_winking:). There's nothing wrong with women having hairy armpits. Hair naturally grows from their armpits, so why are you bothered by it? Furthermore, it doesn't seem to me that shaving would be a priority in a post-apocalyptic world.
 

BluRayHiDef

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The fact that Abby was willing to give up Ellies life for a cure but when it was her fathers life that was taken...... she shows herself to be the ultimate hypocrite.

She is utterly irredeemable and I really feel that the story is very transparent with how it works so so hard to try and make you like her or empathize some way.

It's a shame..because the gameplay, graphics, sound and level design are incredible... it is a 95+ game until you consider the story and dialogue.

The story is a huge step down from the first game... I don't understand why there is all this shitty teenage romance story crap shoved in here. It was not part of the first game.

I don't think that Abby is a hypocrite for thinking that it was moral to sacrifice Ellie in order to manufacture a cure; there's a saying: The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. What's moral? Allowing one person to live while humanity is plagued by a horrible, mutagenic virus? Or sacrificing that one person in order to save all of humanity? Abby more than likely saw the purpose of Ellie's sacrifice as noble. Therefore, in addition to the pain that she feels due to the loss of her father in and of itself, she probably also feels that what Joel did doomed humanity and was selfish.

As for the "teenage" romance, it originated in Left Behind and is a part of Ellie's character. Would you be bothered if it were strictly heterosexual teenage romance?
 
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Bryank75

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I don't think that Abby is a hypocrite for thinking that it was moral to sacrifice Ellie in order to manufacture a cure; there's a saying: The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. What's moral? Allowing one person to live while humanity is plagued by a horrible, mutagenic virus? Or sacrificing that one person in order to save all of humanity? Abby more than likely saw the purpose of Ellie's sacrifice as noble. Therefore, in addition to the pain that she feels due to the loss of her father in and of itself, she probably also feels that what Joel did doomed humanity and was selfish.

As for the "teenage" romance, it originated in Left Behind and is a part of Ellie's character. Would you be bothered if it were strictly heterosexual teenage romance?
Left Behind is backstory.... I have not even played it.
I just mean that the first game had zero romance nonsense.... and I have no problem with some of that, if it is relevant.
It doesn't even make sense the way Abby doesn't want Owen until he is with someone else... and then she has to get in there between a pregnant woman and her partner. She is just a terrible character.... that's just my opinion.

The problem is that the story hinges almost completely on you getting to like Abby and if you don't it all falls down like a house of cards.... checkmate!

I enjoy actually playing the game very much by the way.... I have a digital copy and a special edition. It's only one element that I have an issue.
 
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Whitecrow

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I don't think that Abby is a hypocrite for thinking that it was moral to sacrifice Ellie in order to manufacture a cure; there's a saying: The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. What's moral? Allowing one person to live while humanity is plagued by a horrible, mutagenic virus? Or sacrificing that one person in order to save all of humanity? Abby more than likely saw the purpose of Ellie's sacrifice as noble. Therefore, in addition to the pain that she feels due to the loss of her father in and of itself, she probably also feels that what Joel did doomed humanity and was selfish.

As for the "teenage" romance, it originated in Left Behind and is a part of Ellie's character. Would you be bothered if it were strictly heterosexual teenage romance?
Abby wanting Joel dead makes sense.

How the game told that story is garbage.
 

Ulysses 31

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Abby wanting Joel dead makes sense.

How the game told that story is garbage.
Does it make sense that she wants to help those who saved her but with Joel that's not even a consideration?

Or is it the game's way of saying that Abby is not a person of conscience and principle?
 
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BluRayHiDef

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Does it make sense that she wants to help those who saved her but with Joel that's not even a consideration?

In her mind, Joel killing her father outweighs Joel helping her. Her logic is simple and understandable, in my opinion.
 

Ulysses 31

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In her mind, Joel killing her father outweighs Joel helping her. Her logic is simple and understandable, in my opinion.
She's willing to lay her life down several times for others who saved her, Joel saving her should've given her a moment of pause or at least acknowledgement that Joel saved her.
 

BluRayHiDef

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She's willing to lay her life down several times for others who saved her, Joel saving her should've given her a moment of pause or at least acknowledgement that Joel saved her.

Well, in her judgment, that doesn't change or outweigh that Joel killed her father and doomed humanity. His bad deed outweighs his good one, in her opinion.
 

Ulysses 31

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Well, in her judgment, that doesn't change or outweigh that Joel killed her father and doomed humanity. His bad deed outweighs his good one, in her opinion.
I know that her hatred for Joel outweighs everything else but with her backstory, which shows that she can be a lot better than how she's behaving, it just makes her a lot less likable.
 

Madflavor

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The ending was honestly everything I hoped it would be.

When Joel was slowly dying and thought Ellie was dead, I loved seeing him get on his horse for one last ride as he pursues Abby's group with that wonderful country song playing in the background. Then when he confronts her group we see Ellie return wounded, and Joel and Ellie make their escape. I loved it when Joel told Ellie he'll hold them off, and Ellie said "I love you dad" before they split up. We got a great fistfight between Joel and Abby, but Joel is old and dying so naturally he loses, but he dies looking at the sunrise and Ellie makes her escape. It was a beautiful sendoff.

I was still a bit afraid the game would end there, but thank god we got a whole playable section with Ellie and her family on their farm. I got so pumped when Tommy arrived with the location of Abby's group. My god what an amazing sequence that was. Tommy gets wounded and tells Ellie to keep going, and then we get this awesome fucking final battle with Ellie tearing through Abby's group one by one until she finally gets to Abby herself. The music while this was all happening was so badass too:

I loved how in the end when Ellie returned to her family having killed Abby, it leaves you with the question. Revenge was satisfying, but was it worth it? Will this ever come back to haunt Ellie? Just like the first TLoU I walked away from a moral victory, but questioned if it was the right one. Fantastic fucking game. Naughty Dog did it again!
 

RedVIper

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I don't see why people keep saying the message of the game is that revenge is bad, seems like the exact opposite.

Abby kills joe to avenge her father and totally gets away with it, no consequences, revenge is good and you should do it.

Feels like the Arya story where she just kills the entire Walder Frey's family and totally gets away with it, no consequences.
 
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Ulysses 31

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We are at an impasse. Let's just agree to disagree.
What are we at an impasse about? You disagree that's she's not likable from what we know of Abby when we see the first Joel kill?

You argue that she's likable at the final fight with Ellie?

I'm pointing out what's either a character inconsistency in the writing or the game showing that she's not a person of principle.
 

deriks

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Doesn't pay off, not for the character and not for the player

The first one you question if you do like Joel did or not. Now the game kinda tries, but fall short because Ellie looses everything to go for the kill, then she doesn't. What the fuck?
 

Ulysses 31

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Doesn't pay off, not for the character and not for the player

The first one you question if you do like Joel did or not. Now the game kinda tries, but fall short because Ellie looses everything to go for the kill, then she doesn't. What the fuck?
Another sucky thing is, we don't know if Joel even knows why he's getting beaten to death by someone who he saved earlier. :lollipop_confounded: :lollipop_confounded: :lollipop_confounded:
 
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I don't see why people keep saying the message of the game is that revenge is bad, seems like the exact opposite.
You're giving the game too much credit. I don't think it even has a message. Stuff just happens as Druckmann desperately tries to get some kind of reaction from the player. Seems he was willing to sacrifice everything he had built in the previous game to do so. I wonder when people will learn this approach to telling a story doesn't work.
 

RedVIper

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You're giving the game too much credit. I don't think it even has a message. Stuff just happens as Druckmann desperately tries to get some kind of reaction from the player. Seems he was willing to sacrifice everything he had built in the previous game to do so. I wonder when people will learn this approach to telling a story doesn't work.

I was also kidding. Just pointing out that the game contradicts it's own message.
 

plasmawave

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I don't see why people keep saying the message of the game is that revenge is bad, seems like the exact opposite.

Abby kills joe to avenge her father and totally gets away with it, no consequences, revenge is good and you should do it.

Feels like the Arya story where she just kills the entire Walder Frey's family and totally gets away with it, no consequences.
Except for all the dead friends?
 
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captainraincoat

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Dina and the relationship was never really the problem with this game..it was executed perfectly and you sort of felt a little sad at how quickly they killed off some of the main characters in this love circle

i think the elephant in the room is this game is now part of the same club that tries to insert social justice politics to either drum up publicity or to put up a screen protecting it from crap design choices
and those choices in this game are how it told its story.