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2021 Game Developer Awards - Hades beats TLOU2

01011001

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GDC was delayed this year due to covid. These awards are typically handed out in early March.

  • Best Audio: Hades (Supergiant Games)
  • Best Debut: Phasmophobia (Kinetic Games)
  • Best Design: Hades (Supergiant Games)
  • Best Mobile Game: Genshin Impact (miHoYo)
  • Innovation Award: Dreams (Media Molecule / Sony Interactive Entertainment)
  • Best Narrative: The Last of Us Part II (Naughty Dog / Sony Interactive Entertainment)
  • Best Technology: Microsoft Flight Simulator (Asobo Studio / Xbox Game Studios)
  • Best Visual Art: Ghost of Tsushima (Sucker Punch Productions / Sony Interactive Entertainment)
  • Best VR/AR Game: Half-Life: Alyx (Valve)
  • Audience Award: Ghost of Tsushima (Sucker Punch Productions / Sony Interactive Entertainment)
  • Game of the Year: Hades (Supergiant Games)
  • Pioneer Award: Tom Fulp (creator of Newgrounds)
  • Lifetime Achievement Award: Laralyn McWilliams (28 year industry veteran, creative director of MMO Free Realms)
Curious to see the industry pick Hades over TLOU2 (D.I.C.E awards also chose Hades). Critics and fans picked TLOU2 almost unanimously.

From game of the year tracker:
  • The Last of Us Part II- 305
    • Media Outlets: 197 | Readers' Choice: 108
  • Ghost of Tsushima - 65
    • Media Outlets: 54 | Readers' Choice: 11
  • Hades - 64
    • Media Outlets: 60 | Readers' Choice: 4
I wonder if Naughty Dog will look at this reception from their peers and make some changes. They did win Best Narrative so clearly the devs dont think the story was the problem.

P.S Great to see Flight Sim win best tech. Easily the most technically advanced game ever made. I have no idea why gaf is so dismissive of this game's tech features.

Source: https://www.ign.com/articles/hades-game-of-the-year-2021-game-developers-choice-awards

Naughty Dog are terrible game designers, so of course they lose against a good game. Narrative and fancy graphics is all they have going for them

Terrible take. lol

no absolutely correct take.
 
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ManaByte

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Terrible take. lol

Im Right Told You So GIF by DeRay Davis
 

01011001

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So they played the game and thought it was the best narrative.

So, they're correct by saying it was the better story than all the games last year? :messenger_smirking:

I mean, there weren't many games with good stories last year... so I guess so yes... Story is among the least important things in a game so like, of course most game designers that actually are game designers will not write a freaking hollywood movie and then build a game around that. they will look for interesting gameplay ideas or gamedesign concepts and then just write a story around that, mostly a bit barebones and not that elaborate.

I didn't finish TLOU2 so I can't comment on how good or bad the story is... I couldn't stand the game past like 2h... I gave it a chance but ultimately this is such a slog to play that I stopped
 
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DForce

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I mean, there weren't many games with good stories last year... so I guess so yes... Story is among the least important things in a game so like, of course most game designers that actually are game designers will not write a freakign hollywood movie and then build a game around that. they will look for interesting gameplay ideas or gamedesign concepts and then just write a story around that, mostly a bit barebones and not that elaborate.
Spider-Man, Final Fantasy VII Remake, Ghost of Tsushima, Assassins Creed, Cyberpunk.

But your comment is filled with excuses and no... story is one of the most important things. You can't build world and its characters without a story.
 
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01011001

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Spider-Man, Final Fantasy VII Remake, Ghost of Tsushima, Assassins Creed, Cyberpunk.

But your comment is filled with excuses and no... story is one of the most important things. You can't build world and its characters without a story.

Spider-Man didn't have any overly interesting story... neither did Tsushima or Assassin's Creed... and certainly not Cyberpunk? like, wtf? you couldn't make a more generic story that the ones in these games.
FF7 was most likely not even considered because the story isn't really new, and it also is honestly not that crazy good.

story is not important. you can make an absolutely genius game without or with almost no story.
one of the best games of last gen, The Witness has almost no story, especially during most of the time you play the game... it has this mysterious atmosphere sure but there is no real narrative going on.

Dark Souls 3 or Bloodborne have almost no narrative happening outside of your gameplay... Lore =/= Narrative btw. these are 2 separate things. and DS3 and Bloodborne are among the best game ever made.

Story/Narrative is extremely unimportant. Sure some genres rely more on a narrative than others but many simply don't at all. or are you gonna tell me that the narrative in Super Mario 64 is absolutely amazing? no it isn't... neither is the narrative in Mario World, Ocarina of Time, or in Wind Waker, or in Mario galaxy... these are still some of the highest rated games ever, some of the most beloved games ever and they did not need a story to be that, they certainly had characters that are charming and a world that is charming, but these things can exist without a strong narrative... Mario 64 has no narrative outside of "Bowser has peach, get peach!", Wind Waker's narrative is basically "OH NO MY SISTER! oh shit Tetra is Zelda! let's kill Ganon!"

TLDR: so no, story is not important at all, many of the best games out there have little to no story and most genres work that way without any issue... Tetris says hello
 
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kyliethicc

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Hades wins GOTY from developers who actually play videogames, TLOU2 gets awards from games journalists who don't play games.
You know your same argument is that:

"game devs who actually play video games" picked the real 2019 GOTY ... Untitled Goose Game...

but "games journalists who don't play games" picked the fake 2019 GOTY ... Sekiro.

lol

Game Awards 2019 - Sekiro wins GOTY.
"OMG yes game journalists are great! real gamers!"

Game Awards 2020 - TLOU2 wins GOTY.
"OMG no game journalists are idiots! fake gaymers!"


im salty rooster teeth GIF by Achievement Hunter
 

SLB1904

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Naughty Dog are terrible game designers, so of course they lose against a good game. Narrative and fancy graphics is all they have going for them



no absolutely correct take.
Salt detected lol
Spider-Man didn't have any overly interesting story... neither did Tsushima or Assassin's Creed... and certainly not Cyberpunk? like, wtf? you couldn't make a more generic story that the ones in these games.
FF7 was most likely not even considered because the story isn't really new, and it also is honestly not that crazy good.

story is not important. you can make an absolutely genius game without or with almost no story.
one of the best games of last gen, The Witness has almost no story, especially during most of the time you play the game... it has this mysterious atmosphere sure but there is no real narrative going on.

Dark Souls 3 or Bloodborne have almost no narrative happening outside of your gameplay... Lore =/= Narrative btw. these are 2 separate things. and DS3 and Bloodborne are among the best game ever made.

Story/Narrative is extremely unimportant. Sure some genres rely more on a narrative than others but many simply don't at all. or are you gonna tell me that the narrative in Super Mario 64 is absolutely amazing? no it isn't... neither is the narrative in Mario World, Ocarina of Time, or in Wind Waker, or in Mario galaxy... these are still some of the highest rated games ever, some of the most beloved games ever and they did not need a story to be that, they certainly had characters that are charming and a world that is charming, but these things can exist without a strong narrative... Mario 64 has no narrative outside of "Bowser has peach, get peach!", Wind Waker's narrative is basically "OH NO MY SISTER! oh shit Tetra is Zelda! let's kill Ganon!"

TLDR: so no, story is not important at all, many of the best games out there have little to no story and most genres work that way without any issue... Tetris says hello

Oh shut up already. Go find any 3rd person shooter that come close to tlous 2 gameplay. Just one. Why that fuck you bring archaic games like Mario's 64 and zelda. Like back then they had any technology or even the talent to write a decent story.
The 90s gaming were 90% trash or even more.
 
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01011001

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Salty xbot detected lol

yes because I hate a studio from Sony I am an Xbot... that Xbot that is currently playing Ratchet on PS5 (yeah I finally got a PS5 after using weird tricks with adding it to the wishlist n shit on Amazon to fucking be fast enough to actually get it in the cart and buy it...) and is about to platinum it... yeah... that Xbot who constantly shits on 343 Industries... you know, an Xbox studio...
sorry that you need that us vs them narrative to rationalize that people can think Naughty Dog are a shit developer, when that's simply how it is :)
 
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Both the games mentioned in the title are absolutely amazing for me.
I'm not quite sure where the "Hades beats TLOU2" heading comes from though? I don't follow this stuff to be honest but is there a "This game was better than all the others" category that isn't listed for some reason or is it that just that it won more awards?
Is so then a "Hades beats Ghost of Tsushima" would make morse sense as that won two and The Last of Us II only won one.
Perhaps more importantly than that, is Free Realms still a thing? Not heard of that game for absolutely years.
 

DForce

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Spider-Man didn't have any overly interesting story... neither did Tsushima or Assassin's Creed... and certainly not Cyberpunk? like, wtf? you couldn't make a more generic story that the ones in these games.
FF7 was most likely not even considered because the story isn't really new, and it also is honestly not that crazy good.

That's your opinion. You said there weren't many good stories last year and many people would disagree.

story is not important. you can make an absolutely genius game without or with almost no story.
one of the best games of last gen, The Witness has almost no story, especially during most of the time you play the game... it has this mysterious atmosphere sure but there is no real narrative going on.

Dark Souls 3 or Bloodborne have almost no narrative happening outside of your gameplay... Lore =/= Narrative btw. these are 2 separate things. and DS3 and Bloodborne are among the best game ever made.

Story/Narrative is extremely unimportant. Sure some genres rely more on a narrative than others but many simply don't at all. or are you gonna tell me that the narrative in Super Mario 64 is absolutely amazing? no it isn't... neither is the narrative in Ocarina of Time, or in Wind Waker, or in Mario galaxy... these are still some of the highest rated games ever, some of the most beloved games ever and they did not need a story to be that, they certainly had characters that are charming and a world that is charming, but these things can exist without a strong narrative... Mario 64 has no narrative outside of "Bowser has peach, get peach!", Wind Waker's narrative is basically "OH NO MY SISTER! oh shit Tetra is Zelda! let's kill Ganon!"

TLDR: so no, story is not important at all, many of the best games out there have little to no story and most genres work that way without any issue... Tetris says hello

This is completely false.

There are games that don't require a story such as Tetris, but many of the games you just mentioned has a story behind. It doesn't matter if YOU think its irrelevant, but its a fact that they designed the characters in Bloodborne, Mario and Zelda behind a story.

Who is Mario?

A Plumber. This is why there are pipes in every single Mario game. Being a plumber goes into his character design and world design.

Where is Mario?

The Mushroom kingdom. In this Kingdom, you have residents, including the main antagonist in Browser/King Koopa and the Princess of the Mushroom Kingdom in Princess Peach.



You said the story is the least important thing, yet developers are creating worlds and characters BASED on the story they created.
 

01011001

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No it's because you are chatting shit.
[Media]Have a seat. Talking about gameplay. No one touches naughty dog period.

you actually think this video shows any interesting gameplay concepts or anything that is special? I know that the analog aiming in that game isn't all that great, and I know that the basic character controls aren't that great either... so there's that. but of course if you want generic shooty shooty hidey hidey in bush then this is amazing!

like how low are the standards for interesting gameplay these days?
 

SLB1904

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you actually think this video shows any interesting gameplay concepts or anything that is special? I know that the analog aiming in that game isn't all that great, and I know that the basic character controls aren't that great either... so there's that. but of course if you want generic shooty shooty hidey hidey in bush then this is amazing!

like how low are the standards for interesting gameplay these days?
Lmfao. Why wasting my time.

It's like talking to a brick.

Go do some research. Trying to argue about shit you know nothing about
 

Dream-Knife

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Hades was pretty good, but maybe it isn't the genre for me. I never beat it as it was just too repetitive.

Really the same could be said for GOT.
 

01011001

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That's your opinion. You said there weren't many good stories last year and many people would disagree.



This is completely false.

There are games that don't require a story such as Tetris, but many of the games you just mentioned has a story behind. It doesn't matter if YOU think its irrelevant, but its a fact that they designed the characters in Bloodborne, Mario and Zelda behind a story.

Who is Mario?

A Plumber. This is why there are pipes in every single Mario game. Being a plumber goes into his character design and world design.

Where is Mario?

The Mushroom kingdom. In this Kingdom, you have residents, including the main antagonist in Browser/King Koopa and the Princess of the Mushroom Kingdom in Princess Peach.



You said the story is the least important thing, yet developers are creating worlds and characters BASED on the story they created.

ok, let me rephrase that, the quality of the narrative is absolutely not important for 99% of games out there. and the quality of the narrative in most games is pretty shit when compared to other mediums that tell stories... even the best of them.

and Mario going into a castle to rescue peach for the 500th time isn't a high quality narrative or anything that takes any skill to make. so it is THE LEAST IMPORTANT aspect of a video game... even graphics are more important because graphics also includes artdesign which directly influences the readability of your environment and therefore directly influences gameplay. the graphics need to convey the correct feedback to you, like do I do damage?, can I jump there?, is this enemy killable by using this tactic/weapon? that's all influenced by graphics so they are more important.

then the controls, they are among the most important things, even seemingly simple control schemes like in Tetris can be fucked by bad controls (ubisoft knows this lol)

leveldesign is obviously very important, that speaks for itself I think

well designed game mechanics of course also goes without saying.

but story? you literally don't need it or can just slap the good old damsel in distress in there and be done with it, works for many games... or big evil dude needs to be killed, also generic but works for many games.
 
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SLB1904

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I mean, its a better game.
It really isn't. Whatever metric you want to use the last of us 2 destroys. I'm pretty majority of the people didn't finish that game. It's not because is hard it's because there is so many times you can fight the boring bosses. Where you just spam dodge and shield attack.
 

01011001

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Lmfao. Why wasting my time.

It's like talking to a brick.

Go do some research. Trying to argue about shit you know nothing about

do research? what the fuck? research about generic 3rd person shooter mechanics? tell me what is special about the GAMEPLAY of TLOU2... what does it do that no other game did... what does it better than other games? I can't tell you 1 thing. not even remotely. but hey the animations are great, yay? but not always great in a gameplay sense, because often the visual feedback you get from your character movement is inconsistent, which is suboptimal as your visual feedback for the same action should be consistent to give a sense of control over the character that feels, well, consistent... but there are many context sensitive animation variants and weird animation AI that changes animations a bit too drastically on the fly, which is suboptimal
 
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SLB1904

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but not always great in a gameplay sense, because often the visual feedback you get from your character movement is inconsistent, which is suboptimal.
That fuck you talking about?

Alright you need to start show some examples, because it's clear you are making shit up
 
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01011001

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That fuck you talking about?

the animations of your character in TLOU2 are not consistent but heavily modified by an animation AI, meaning the visual feedback of your controller inputs is not reliable. this makes the game feel less precise to play, a good counter example, vaguely in the same genre, would be MGS5 where the visual feedback of your character is extremely consistent and precise so you always feel in control.

in TLOU2 not even simple things like doing a melee attack has consistent animations (which is sadly something that plagues many western AAA games, even Tsushima has this issue where it is arguably a worse type of game for this to happen)
 
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DForce

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ok, let me rephrase that, the quality of the narrative is absolutely not important for 99% of games out there. and the quality of the narrative in most games is pretty shit when compared to other mediums that tell stories... even the best of them.

That's your personal opinion.

and Mario going into a castle to rescue peach for the 500th time isn't a high quality narrative or anything that takes any skill to make. so it is THE LEAST IMPORTANT aspect of a video game... even graphics are more important because graphics also includes artdesign which directly influences the readability of your environment and therefore directly influences gameplay. the graphics need to convey the correct feedback to you, like do I do damage?, can I jump there?, is this enemy killable by using this tactic/weapon? that's all influenced by graphics so they are more important.

then the controls, they are among the most important things, even seemingly simple control schemes like in Tetris can be fucked by bad controls (ubisoft knows this lol)

leveldesign is obviously very important, that speaks for itself I think

well designed game mechanics of course also goes without saying.

but story? you literally don't need it or can just slap the good old damsel in distress in there and be done with it, works for many games... or big evil dude needs to be killed, also generic but works for many games.
This doesn't change the fact that a story went behind these character designs. It's also the reason why many people love a lot of characters out there. Most of the memorable video game characters out there has a background story and it's attached to a beloved franchise.


So facts prove that it is important... not to all games, but in most cases, it is, especially in a game with a story.
 

SLB1904

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in TLOU2 not even simple things like doing a melee attack has consistent animations (which is sadly something that plagues many western AAA games, even Tsushima has this issue where it is arguably a worse type of game for this to happen)
Thank you for this. I'm glad to shut u up.
Let's go
[Media]
[Media]
Every dumb argument you have I have counter for you. You know why?
Because I played the game. I know what I'm talking about. You know shit
 

01011001

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That's your personal opinion.


This doesn't change the fact that a story went behind these character designs. It's also the reason why many people love a lot of characters out there. Most of the memorable video game characters out there has a background story and it's attached to a beloved franchise.


So facts prove that it is important... not to all games, but in most cases, it is, especially in a game with a story.

well again, narrative =/= lore

Mario being a plumber is almost never actually brought up in any of the games... I don't even think it is brought up at all in any Mario game... maybe in a throwaway sentence somewhere? dunno.
but that is the background lore of the world, not the narrative of the game. the narrative of the game is "big bad lizard stole love interest, now get love interest back!" ... that is not a strong narrative and not award worthy at all. it is as simple as it gets.

you can make almost any genre of game with a very simple throwaway narrative... like I could not tell you what any of the Splinter Cell games is about because it is such an uninteresting story... "terrorists are out and about and we gonna get them!" I guess... and that's totally enough for a Splinter Cell game... like, who the hell actually remembers what happens in any of them? literally all I remember is that in Pandora Tomorrow, the words Pandora Tomorrow is a code that the terrorists use to signal to delay some terror attack or something? not even sure.

generally speaking, a good game is still good even if you skip all the cutscenes and just play through the game without any narrative... I know this because that's how I played through most games as a kid... only after getting older did I even start watching any cutscenes in videogames... so there is your proof right there from my personal experience that almost no game actually needs a narrative to be a good game. MGS2 certainly didn't, because my first 5 playthroughs of that were with all cutscenes skipped lol.

even the general atmosphere of a game is way more important than the story... THPS 1+2 is a good example of that, or Jet Set Radio... who the fuck even is Beat?`I know he has cool 90s sunglasses and dances in the menu... and of course he is skating and spraying graffiti... but I mean that's just a generic punk kid character with some decent artdesign giving him the vibes that fit the vibes of the game... there's no real narrative there outside of him defending the turf of his gang
 

longdi

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Looking forward to trying Hades on gamepass

Hopefully it's not just more overhyped indie trash

Yap that's my beef with indie games, always cheering for the underdogs, but budget is budget, and small teams usually are content limited.

Thank god we have Gamepass now :messenger_smiling_with_eyes: :messenger_ok: , it allows me to try many indie games and hopefully Hades live up to its hype.
 

SLB1904

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Sigh, I’ve said it so many times but I got to say it once again everytime I see TLOU2 wins a best narrative award. It’s proves no one in charge of these awards played 13 Sentinels. That game destroyed this in narrative by an insanely large margin and yet it keeps getting ignored. Such a shame.
People probably didn't play it. Expected tbh
 

purvispisgah

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Hades is as good a game as I've ever played. So polished, such an excellent use of classic roguelike systems, and a very interesting and gameplay driven story.

Been a fan of Supergiant since the beginning, but this game is at another level.
 
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01011001

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Thank you for this. I'm glad to shut u up.
Let's go
[Media]
[Media]
Every dumb argument you have I have counter for you. You know why?
Because I played the game. I know what I'm talking about. You know shit

this is terrible, the visual feedback here is absolutely muddied and not at all satisfying. that dodge move in the first clip is barely even recognizable as one, giving you really bad feedback. also the whole close quater combat system in this game is such a joke it's ridiculous lol. you literally spam attack until you see one of the many really badly animated attacks and then you hit the didge button, followed by more attack spamming until a canned animation plays for a finisher.

then the knife attacks, notice how none of them have any consistency, there are just a bunch of different attack animations they filmed, that all do the same thing and are just thrown in there at random. there is no consistent combo there or anything, it's just attack spam until canned animation to grab the bat.

then next, the kick in the air is barely even visibly a kick, again bad visual feedback, I am not even sure if it was an attack or if the player simply jumped on the head of the enemy? and then of course followed by canned finisher animation

next we see yet another 4 attacks combo with inconsistent animations, followed by yet another canned finisher animation

then a stealth attack where she pushes the enemy againg the wall (sand bags in this case) something many stealth games did way before TLOU2

....and all in all I see similarities to Assassins's Creed 2 here if I look at all of this. it's actually pretty much the same, except for the canned finishing moves where you grab the enemy weapon I guess... that's on other games but not AC2, so that's different.
but all in all it's the same, semi random attack animations during combos followed by a finisher... tho AC2 had cooler counter attack finishers (like countering with the dual hidden blades and then ramming them up the enemies throat) and the animations in general are better timed in AC2

for real, if you actually think there is anything shown here that is special I think you are either blinded by fanboyism towards this game or you haven't played many games. this is not even very good... let alone anything special
random attack animations is not a good thing you know... that is not only inconsistent visual feedback but also not very immersive as you never feel in control of your character, you are just suggesting an action and the character then does random shit you didn't even really plan to do, or at the very least the way the character attacks is so inconsistent that you never really get a feel for how she attacks.
 
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SLB1904

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Better
 
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DForce

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well again, narrative =/= lore

You can't have lore without a story.

Mario being a plumber is almost never actually brought up in any of the games... I don't even think it is brought up at all in any Mario game... maybe in a throwaway sentence somewhere? dunno.
but that is the background lore of the world, not the narrative of the game. the narrative of the game is "big bad lizard stole love interest, now get love interest back!" ... that is not a strong narrative and not award worthy at all. it is as simple as it gets.

Being brought up is not the point. Being a plumber and designing a world based on the mushroom kingdom is actually based on a story they created. It doesn't matter if its barely brought up.

you can make almost any genre of game with a very simple throwaway narrative... like I could not tell you what any of the Splinter Cell games is about because it is such an uninteresting story... "terrorists are out and about and we gonna get them!" I guess... and that's totally enough for a Splinter Cell game... like, who the hell actually remembers what happens in any of them? literally all I remember is that in Pandora Tomorrow, the words Pandora Tomorrow is a code that the terrorists use to signal to delay some terror attack or something? not even sure.

generally speaking, a good game is still good even if you skip all the cutscenes and just play through the game without any narrative... I know this because that's how I played through most games as a kid... only after getting older did I even start watching any cutscenes in videogames... so there is your proof right there from my personal experience that almost no game actually needs a narrative to be a good game. MGS2 certainly didn't, because my first 5 playthroughs of that were with all cutscenes skipped lol.

even the general atmosphere of a game is way more important than the story... THPS 1+2 is a good example of that, or Jet Set Radio... who the fuck even is Beat?`I know he has cool 90s sunglasses and dances in the menu... and of course he is skating and spraying graffiti... but I mean that's just a generic punk kid character with some decent artdesign giving him the vibes that fit the vibes of the game... there's no real narrative there outside of him defending the turf of his gang

It doesn't matter if you feel its a throwaway or not. Fact show that its important and it goes into their design in just about the majority of video games. Without the story they created, then you don't get those characters.

There's no denying this.
 

ZehDon

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... Who is Mario?

A Plumber. This is why there are pipes in every single Mario game. Being a plumber goes into his character design and world design.

Where is Mario?

The Mushroom kingdom. In this Kingdom, you have residents, including the main antagonist in Browser/King Koopa and the Princess of the Mushroom Kingdom in Princess Peach.

You said the story is the least important thing, yet developers are creating worlds and characters BASED on the story they created.
I get what you're trying to say, but this isn't the best example.

The pipes actually existed from the arcade game, and Mario's profession was added in there to make them thematically consistent. This was back Mario when was still called 'Jumpman', before his name and profession were cemented for the arcade game. His workman overalls were mostly a carry over from the Donkey Kong arcade game, where they were used because it assisted with clarifying the animation of his arms and legs with the low pixel count. The hat was added because Nintendo couldn't animate his hair. The mushroom kingdom itself was written up after the original NES game was designed as a way to explain those designs - and it's changed quite a bit from game to game. This ad hoc approach actually creates lots of contradictions in the games', which lead to some gnarly end results if taken logically. So, the story came a distant, distant, distant second.

Another counter-example would be the original Doom, where the story initially dictated the early design of the levels, being more realistic and base-like in construction. This was determined to be pretty terrible to play, so they threw them out and just made whatever they wanted as long as it was fun, ignoring the story and world-logic entirely. The connective tissue was slapped together from the original 'Doom Bible' later as a way to explain everything, if anyone actually cared enough to read it.

Story is so dramatically unimportant to the success of a game that in two of the most important games of all time, story was ignored and added as an after thought. If your gameplay is good, you don't really need a story - it can absolutely be added in as an after thought and no one will care. With that said, in modern games, story is given a lot more weight, and it actually takes precedence over the gameplay for some developers - which is why we endure dozens of hours of non-interactive cutscenes and walking segments where the player can do nothing more than hold forward and listen to dialogue. Gamers have preferences and the medium is big enough to accommodate them all - but we shouldn't pretend Nintendo dreamed up 'The Epic of the Mushroom Kingdom' and used it to drive the development of Super Mario Bros. Mario himself was named after Nintendo's warehouse's landlord because they were behind on rent; the story was and is utterly irrelevant.
 
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DForce

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I get what you're trying to say, but this isn't the best example.

The pipes actually existed from the arcade game, and Mario's profession was added in there to make them thematically consistent. This was back Mario when was still called 'Jumpman', before his name and profession were cemented for the arcade game. His workman overalls were mostly a carry over from the Donkey Kong arcade game, where they were used because it assisted with clarifying the animation of his arms and legs with the low pixel count. The hat was added because Nintendo couldn't animate his hair. The mushroom kingdom itself was written up after the original NES game was designed as a way to explain those designs - and it's changed quite a bit from game to game. This ad hoc approach actually creates lots of contradictions in the games', which lead to some gnarly end results if taken logically. So, the story came a distant, distant, distant second.

Another counter-example would be the original Doom, where the story initially dictated the early design of the levels, being more realistic and base-like in construction. This was determined to be pretty terrible to play, so they threw them out and just made whatever they wanted as long as it was fun, ignoring the story and world-logic entirely. The connective tissue was slapped together from the original 'Doom Bible' later as a way to explain everything, if anyone actually cared enough to read it.

Story is so dramatically unimportant to the success of a game that in two of the most important games of all time, story was ignored and added as an after thought. If your gameplay is good, you don't really need a story - it can absolutely be added in as an after thought and no one will care. With that said, in modern games, story is given a lot more weight, and it actually takes precedence over the gameplay for some developers - which is why we endure dozens of hours of non-interactive cutscenes and walking segments where the player can do nothing more than hold forward and listen to dialogue. Gamers have preferences and the medium is big enough to accommodate them all - but we shouldn't pretend Nintendo dreamed up 'The Epic of the Mushroom Kingdom' and used it to drive the development of Super Mario Bros. Mario himself was named after Nintendo's warehouse's landlord because they were behind on rent; the story was and is utterly irrelevant.

You basically said a lot of things that were completely wrong. lol

It doesn't matter if you ignore the story, that doesn't change the fact that developers are designing their characters based on the story they created.

Bloodborne's story will be ignored by probably 99% of the people who played the game, but that doesn't mean they didn't create the world and characters without it. Take Bloodborne's story, but make it into zombies in a modern day setting then people are going to feel differently about the world that they're playing it. YOU as a game feels its irrelevant in a lot of cases, but to people actually creating their vision, its not.


Now you're saying, "these things existed before Mario" and that still doesn't change anything. I'm an artist and I know many artist while working in this field. You're rarely going to find an artist who designs characters without thinking of some kind of story for that a character.


Miyamoto wanted to created a game based on Popeye, but since they couldn't get the rights to those characters, he went with different ones.

Question: Talk about how Mario became a character in the first place. Originally, he wasn't a plumber, correct?

Answer:
If you look at the technology we have now we obviously have a bigger screen and there is a lot more space and you can do a lot more detailed artwork. But if you go back to (1981's) Donkey Kong, it was a 16-by-16 (inch) screen area. The character I came up with to fit that best was this small little guy with a big nose and a mustache, the characteristics that would stand out in that medium. We created the game design first and then we put the characters in to fit that. With Donkey Kong, we have this gorilla who grabs this gal and runs away with her and you have to go chase the gorilla down to save the lady. And the game's stage was a construction site, so we made him into basically a carpenter. …. With (1983's) Mario Bros., we brought in Luigi and a lot of the game was played underground so we made him to fit that setting and, we decided he could be a plumber. The scenario dictates his role.

A kid can play a Nintendo game for years without knowing the story of a Mario game, but if it appeals to him and a story is behind those characters and world design, then yes, a story is important. When you think of a story, you're think if a narrative that's being told to you while you're playing a video game when that is the most basic concept there is.


I'm sure if you ask any artist about a character he signed, he will give you a story behind that character.
 
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GDC was delayed this year due to covid. These awards are typically handed out in early March.

  • Best Audio: Hades (Supergiant Games)
  • Best Debut: Phasmophobia (Kinetic Games)
  • Best Design: Hades (Supergiant Games)
  • Best Mobile Game: Genshin Impact (miHoYo)
  • Innovation Award: Dreams (Media Molecule / Sony Interactive Entertainment)
  • Best Narrative: The Last of Us Part II (Naughty Dog / Sony Interactive Entertainment)
  • Best Technology: Microsoft Flight Simulator (Asobo Studio / Xbox Game Studios)
  • Best Visual Art: Ghost of Tsushima (Sucker Punch Productions / Sony Interactive Entertainment)
  • Best VR/AR Game: Half-Life: Alyx (Valve)
  • Audience Award: Ghost of Tsushima (Sucker Punch Productions / Sony Interactive Entertainment)
  • Game of the Year: Hades (Supergiant Games)
  • Pioneer Award: Tom Fulp (creator of Newgrounds)
  • Lifetime Achievement Award: Laralyn McWilliams (28 year industry veteran, creative director of MMO Free Realms)
Curious to see the industry pick Hades over TLOU2 (D.I.C.E awards also chose Hades). Critics and fans picked TLOU2 almost unanimously.

From game of the year tracker:
  • The Last of Us Part II - 305
    • Media Outlets: 197 | Readers' Choice: 108
  • Ghost of Tsushima - 65
    • Media Outlets: 54 | Readers' Choice: 11
  • Hades - 64
    • Media Outlets: 60 | Readers' Choice: 4
I wonder if Naughty Dog will look at this reception from their peers and make some changes. They did win Best Narrative so clearly the devs dont think the story was the problem.

P.S Great to see Flight Sim win best tech. Easily the most technically advanced game ever made. I have no idea why gaf is so dismissive of this game's tech features.

Source: https://www.ign.com/articles/hades-game-of-the-year-2021-game-developers-choice-awards
Take that Jim fucking Ryan
 

ZehDon

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You basically said a lot of things that were completely wrong. lol
No, literally every thing I posted and explained in my post was 100% factual.

It doesn't matter if you ignore the story, that doesn't change the fact that developers are designing their characters based on the story they created.
I explained that the story was created to explain the characters after the characters were created - the characters were not created out of the story. This statement is completely wrong in the example you used.

Now you're saying, "these things existed before Mario" and that still doesn't change anything...
Your point is "the story comes first, then the characters are created out of it." Now you're saying saying "Ok, sure, but the characters existing before the story doesn't change anything". This doesn't make any sense.

I'm sure if you ask any artist about a character he signed, he will give you a story behind that character.
I provided two examples where the artists themselves have explained at length that the story was made up after the characters were created. The two examples I have provided are two of the most important games ever made, whose characters have become a part of pop culture at large.

Sorry, but you're wrong and demonstrably so.
 

DForce

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No, literally every thing I posted and explained in my post was 100% factual.

You didn't. You just shared info that things existed before the game Mario was created and missed the point.

I explained that the story was created to explain the characters after the characters were created - the characters were not created out of the story. This statement is completely wrong in the example you used.

By Miyamoto's own account, Mario's profession was chosen to fit with the game design: since Donkey Kong takes place on a construction site, Mario was made into a carpenter; and when he appeared again in Mario Bros., it was decided that he should be a plumber, because a lot of the game is situated in underground settings. Mario's character design, particularly his large nose, draws on western influences; once he became a plumber, Miyamoto decided to "put him in New York" and make him Italian, lightheartedly attributing Mario's nationality to his mustache. Other sources have Mario's profession chosen to be carpenter in an effort to depict the character as an ordinary hard worker, making it easier for players to identify with him. After a colleague suggested that Mario more closely resembled a plumber, Miyamoto changed Mario's profession accordingly and developed Mario Bros., featuring the character in the sewers of New York City.

Your point is "the story comes first, then the characters are created out of it." Now you're saying saying "Ok, sure, but the characters existing before the story doesn't change anything". This doesn't make any sense.

I just shared you an article how Donkey Kong was designed and the story behind creating the game. They wanted a New York setting and Mario was a carpenter.

It's word for word right there, and all you're doing is ignoring it by saying, "No, I just shared you factual information" when the designer is telling you an entirely different story.

I provided two examples where the artists themselves have explained at length that the story was made up after the characters were created. The two examples I have provided are two of the most important games ever made, whose characters have become a part of pop culture at large.

Sorry, but you're wrong and demonstrably so.

You didn't. You just twisted what was actually said.

If you actually looked up the wiki article, then you would've seen this.

For the first time, story came first and gameplay was designed around it. Miyamoto based his plot on the Popeye love triangle, a license Nintendo pursued and lost. Very quickly, a giant gorilla subbed for Bluto while Popeye the Sailor-Man became Jumpman, a carpenter leaping barrels and scaling his construction site to rescue "Lady." Miyamoto wanted a linear progression through different stages. His four-man programming team didn't want to code the same game four times. It was foolish, like redesigning a chess board every five moves.


No matter what you do to try to spin it, Mario started off as a carpenter in New York. That was his original story. The fact that I'm telling you this means there's a story behind the design of the game. People can create things within a game and give them stories later, but it still doesn't change how Mario/Jumpman was created. Pipes came from the underground concept of the sewers and the Mario Bros were clearing it.

That is a story.

It continues.

...Except Mario's occupation didn't sit right. A colleague told Miyamoto that his little sprite looked more like a plumber.

Accordingly, Miyamoto put Mario in a crab/turtle/firefly-infested sewer for his third outing. Further inspiration came from Joust, an early co-op game where players worked together or, alternatively, wiped each other out. For Player two, Miyamoto adapted his catch-all character again, swapping Mario's color palette to create an identical "brother."
Everything points to a story being created behind the design of the character and the world that they're in. It doesn't matter if they started creating a world and didn't know what it was at the time. A tree is a tree in a world is basically short story, It progresses from there and the end result is the world of the mushroom kingdom and Mario is saving a princess from King Koopa.
 
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SLB1904

I'm a massive child who is on perm notice for crying about plastic boxes.
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Opinions vary.
How can you have an opinion of something without knowing anything about it? That's what I'm getting at.
You can say 2+2 is 5 just because is your opinion still makes you wrong.
 

Whitecrow

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Thank you for this. I'm glad to shut u up.
Let's go
[Media]
[Media]
Every dumb argument you have I have counter for you. You know why?
Because I played the game. I know what I'm talking about. You know shit
Lets not give females female traits, but lets crank up gore up to 11.
Thats what happens when you have just enough neurons to not shit yourself.
 

Gaelyon

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Well TLOU2 will be fine. I mean it got the most "Game of the year" award than any video games of the entire endustry since the beginning of award history, by FAR. And it's not an opinion, it's just a fact.

Hades seem a great game (i intent to play it next month when it'll be on the PS store), but why this narrative on opposing these two games, which are so totally different in every way ?
 

DenchDeckard

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If i'm going to inject trash into my veins then I at least want it to have high production values

Ah I think what's changed In many ways, I always played games for excellent gameplay..something hades and last of us 2 nails tbh...I could just do without so much melodramatic netflix tv show cutscene focus. It's a shame that's where most of the budget goes nowadays.
 
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EruditeHobo

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I wonder if Naughty Dog will look at this reception from their peers and make some changes.

How much "change" -- and in which direction -- do you think is merited by a product selected for hundreds of GOTY honors?

Most of them are actually irrelevant, if you bothered to check, but you didnt. At least 100 of them. Just to inflate the number.

I don't understand. We should dismiss the number 300 because of your assertion/personal opinion that 100 of them are "irrelevant"? Leaving the number at... a mere 200? That is the silver bullet to the idea that many GOTY honors might have some meaning and speak to the quality of the game itself?

It's a great game that some people don't like... same as it was the last time there was a new tortured topic shoehorning in shade for TLOU2. People that don't like it often really don't like it. There remains little evidence that there's all that many of them. A great example of the vocal minority, in real time.
 

Whitecrow

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This is legitimately one of the worst takes I've ever seen. How can you possibly think this?
I think he means (maybe) that a lot of games dont need good narattive in order to get credit for it. Is enough by having some and having a popular studio behind them.

To a certain point I could agree with that.

But when a game focuses on narrative and gets it right is the best thing ever.
 
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