Shogmaster
Sloppy seconds
Admit it. It's you leaking all this shit to MLiD. LOLOL"With AI" and "raw performance" are mutually exclusive
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[MLiD] Project Helix is 25 Percent Faster Than PS6
- Thread starter LectureMaster
- Start date
- Rumor Hardware
Loxus
Member
Well, i don't want to add that old Twitter beef about that time on Neogaf, so I just end it here.
Loxus
Member
Yep, that one time when MLiD leaks were coming true, they did it so people can discredit him. But it didn't work.
kevboard
Member
I mean... sure it can... but why do Nvidia PR like nonsense comparisons like that?
"if you don't use the 5090's features then the 4070 XT using all its features gets 5090 performance!"
that's the whole nonsense Nvidia did with the 5060 (or was it the 5060ti
)and you don't even need AI for that. FSR framegen without AI can already do that. and FSR frame gen's issue isn't the quality of the frames, it's the frame cadence being often completely fucked up. so they'll have to get that under control, especially in unlocked FPS scenarios.
I have yet to use FSR frame gen without it being a downgrade to not using it.
Shogmaster
Sloppy seconds
Dis rabbit hole goes deep! and full of doodoo....
Loxus
Member
I expect PS6 path traced games to be more demanding than Alan Wake 2, so if Mark Cerny is to be believed, PS6 RT performance in games can't be just a mere 3× increase over PS5. That isn't even enough for current PT games.I mean... sure it can... but why do Nvidia PR like nonsense comparisons like that?
"if you don't use the 5090's features then the 4070 XT using all its features gets 5090 performance!"
that's the whole nonsense Nvidia did with the 5060 (or was it the 5060ti
and you don't even need AI for that. FSR framegen without AI can already do that. and FSR frame gen's issue isn't the quality of the frames, it's the frame cadence being often completely fucked up. so they'll have to get that under control, especially in unlocked FPS scenarios.
I have yet to use FSR frame gen without it being a downgrade to not using it.
And Mark Cerny seems to be pushing PSSR hard, so naturally in included AI and frame gen.
Loxus
Member
That's because you don't follow the right people on Twitter to know.
But let's just keep this discussion about the consoles shall we.
I didn't say it would be only 3x?
kevboard
Member
having more RT perfomance is nice and all, but eventually you'll be bottlenecked by the shading capabilities.
and again, AI framegen isn't all that much better than normal framegen. sure it's cleaner, but that was never the issue with FSR3 framegen. FSR framegen lacks the stability of DLSS framegen, and that is not achieved by the use of machine learning.
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Shogmaster
Sloppy seconds
Whats Twitter?
Also, no BC on 3rd party Helix either makes them entirely pointless, or extremly essential if only THEY offer seamless Steam integration. DUN DUN DUUUUUUUN~
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twilo99
Member
Let us know if you ever find out
Shogmaster
Sloppy seconds
Is it a gay dating app?
I can see 36GB RAM for MS Helix and 48GB for 3rd party Helix to justify $500 surcharge.
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viveks86
Member
It won't be just 3x. That example based on AC shadows was heavily skewed against the PS6 because the base ps5 only does RTGI diffuse, so a lot of potential for acceleration is left on the table. I was tempted to dispute the numbers earlier, but I didn't want to be so pedantic to take away from the core message, which is that the scaling isn't 1:1.
The PS5 pro is already in the 2x to 3x territory in that game if you actually take into account RTGI specular and reflections running in parallel. There are separate slides for that which are often ignored. Many don't understand the context behind those slides properly and are jumping to conclusions filled with confirmation bias.
Here's a back of the envelope estimate for where the PS6 will land with 10x RT.
Path Tracing, which is well beyond just RTGI and reflections, easily takes up 60%, if not more, of the gpu frame budget. Just compare any 50 series card's performance on any PT game, with PT and without PT/RT ( ie raster only) and you can see that. Performance will be halved at least, or even 1/3rd.
So if the ray tracing (intersection + traversal) hardware provides 10x the power of ps5 base, it's totally conceivable that a path traced game runs around 6x (60% of 10x) faster on PS6.
If a path traced game can run at even 5 fps on the base ps5, it can run at 30 fps on the PS6 (assuming there are no other bottlenecks getting in the way, like VRAM).. Now throw in all the AI enhancements to reduce the PT load (like RR, NRC, NVC etc.), plus significant architectural improvements like SER, OMM, PTLAS, CLAS, DGF etc. and 60 fps is well within reach for a next gen game. It won't magically accelerate an already released game without code changes, but anything built from the ground up for next gen can achieve it.
Now apply those same AI enhancements to a 5090 as well at same base resolution and it will probably be in the 90 to 100 fps range on that card. Which is why it's a silly comparison as anything outside of apples to apples is muddying the water and giving fodder for platform warring instead of actually being insightful of where the future is headed. Given 9070xt raster, we should stick to the 5080 as an aspirational goal for equivalent PT performance, so that we aren't setting wrong expectations for everyone. Anything beyond that is gravy.
Like I said earlier, if ReSTIR PT is now getting 3x faster on last gen hardware (40 series was used in that research), we could potentially be looking at PT 60 fps becoming industry standard next gen. On freaking consoles! At that point, who even cares if the 5090 is further ahead?
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Shogmaster
Sloppy seconds
Magnus is AT2 only. 96 CU would be AT1.
SupremeJ
Member
Are you the 3rd leaker?
MCH2024 alt
DenchDeckard
Moderated wildly
So why you don't believe the PS6 with AI can't match the 5090 raw performance?
Or are you jealous of MLiD?
Or leak something new.
I'm getting really confused here. So you want to compare the overall performance of a ps6 using AI Vs a 5090 not running AI?
So are you saying the playstation is allowed to use upscalers, frame generation (it's gonna need that) to hit the same number in FPS as a 5090 while looking somewhat similar?
Because there is no way any reputable tech youtuber could be making that statement when saying the ps6 will perform like a 5090. That is just straight manipulating your audience and blatantly lieing through semantics and jargon.
We have seen the ps6 die shots. We have had discussions. It will not be close to a 5090. MLiD is a fraud shill, fanboy who has done this for years. He farms engagement from creating bullshit hype with AMD and Sony fans, because they flock to his videos.
Hes a bit of a knobhead.
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Shogmaster
Sloppy seconds
Naw Son. He is MY alt.
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Shogmaster
Sloppy seconds
I go to this site called Neogaf.
Jaguar Victory
Member
Good to see folks still arguing about this nonsense like litte kids. I just hope Sony doesn't moneyhat parity again. I don't want Europoor settings on my Xbox. 
Shogmaster
Sloppy seconds
These words mean something... *strokes chin*Good to see folks still arguing about this nonsense like litte kids. I just hope Sony doesn't moneyhat parity again. I don't want Europoor settings on my Xbox.
J Required
Banned
What do you mean by "with AI"? 5090 has also AI capabilities! You can compare them 1:1 if you want?!
vaibhavpisal
Member
I think Microsoft should allow partners to build and sell xbox certified PCs, that would be build using Helix as model.
They wont have to deal with distribution and service that way, if Helix is not available everywhere worldwide.
Manufacturers could also use standard components making repair easier, albeit at a higher price, I imagine.
They wont have to deal with distribution and service that way, if Helix is not available everywhere worldwide.
Manufacturers could also use standard components making repair easier, albeit at a higher price, I imagine.
Xion_Stellar
People should stop referencing data that makes me feel uncomfortable because games get ported to platforms I don't like
"Introducing the new Xbox Mark I (We refuse to get away from the Xbox 1 names) it now has Blast Processing!"
Shogmaster
Sloppy seconds
You'll need to pay 5 digits for that. Racing games won't use PT for a looooong ass time.
Be happy with max RT @4K @90fps+ on Forza Horizon 6 instead.
KungFucius
King Snowflake
I presume they also could release models that have higher specs. More ram, a higher CU APU. Or the bullshit ASUS does where they overengineer for maybe 10% gains over the base model with no OC but charge 2x. ROG Strix Helix.
That's why I opted for 1080p resolution. You still think 60 fps PT is impossible?
Bojji
Member
Take a look at this.
The 7900 XTX (with 96CUs) does 47fps, 9070XT (with 64 CUs) does 57fps, the 5090 does 119 fps, all without upscaling.
You are telling me that PS6 can't achieve 120 fps with better RT Cores and frame generation?
Look at the RT uplift in performance of the 9070XT with only 64CUs, which easily beats the 7900XTX with 96 CUs. RDNA5 Radiance Cores is said to be an even bigger uplift.
We have enough benchmarks out there, like come on guys, this is Tommy Fisher all over again.
In the same comparison 5090 would be 240fps with FG, what are we talking about?
And AW2 is AMD friendly it seems, try Indiana Jones or Wukong
Why you go to war with credible leaker like Kepler? To defend MLID? SMH...
vaibhavpisal
Member
Not sure about higher specs, but they surely can offer overclocked products.
PC manufacturers usually are not very creative when it comes to making anything other than a standard laptop / desktop. Maybe due to scale of manufacturing.
So remains to be seen if anything gets available at acceptable price point.
Shogmaster
Sloppy seconds
Envoronment is too big and goes by too fast plus all the cars near you. 360p maybe lol
dgrdsv
Member
5090 will likely be considerably ahead of PS6 in "Neural Rendering" tho.
sncvsrtoip
Member
It will be good if ps6 is 2x faster than pro, it will be dated on premiere. It is what it is, if you want highend console buy helix but still will be lagging behind latest geforces.
Shogmaster
Sloppy seconds
$PS6$ x 1.33 = $Helix$ x 3 = $RTX6090$
viveks86
Member
Ummm... F1 already did it a year ago for 4 digits...
It actually won't be surprising to see GT 8 path traced. The biggest element causing lag in the path tracing pipeline is GI as it needs to accumulate over several frames. And a big part of that lag gets cut down with RR and radiance caching. It could happen.
J Required
Banned
Salty Pickle
Member
Didn't apple do this before Jobs got back and killed it?
viveks86
Member
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Imtjnotu
Member
Mr.Allan
Member
I have 9070xt, had 7800xt. These are great cards. if you think that amd can somehow reduce tdp of 9070xt from 304w to 150w + cpu/ram/ssd/ etc you're delusional. There's a reason why 9070xt is at 300+w tdp. you can undervolt it but it will always crash on one game. It's not possible, currently, to have 9070xt performance under 200w. rdna5 won't change that. It will be ps4 all over with smokes and mirrors.
Bojji
Member
I like that in the time stamped fragment he talks with sense, that 10x increase RT is purely theoretical vs. most real world scenarios. So why he keeps talking about PS6 = 5090 in RT idiocy?
ResilientBanana
Member
Microsoft going third party to make Xbox's is the wrong direction. I'd rather buy a Steam Machine.
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adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
viveks86
Member
So much drama over a single joke about Spiderman at 720 fps. He is literally asking all his followers to tag Kepler with counter evidence
"Lying", "Unprofessional", "Attention Seeking", "Clownish", "Childish" etc.
Gotta say, I'm lovin' it!
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Bojji
Member
So much drama over a single joke about Spiderman at 720 fps. He is literally asking all his followers to tag Kepler with counter evidence
"Lying", "Unprofessional", "Attention Seeking", "Clownish", "Childish" etc.
Yeah, he ignores all the other stuff. I would like to see him explaining how in hell can ~4080 level GPU reach 5090 RT power in games.
