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[MLiD] Project Helix is 25 Percent Faster Than PS6

Microsoft DNA is software. Sony's DNA is hardware.

Doesn't matter how much 'faster' their console is, Sony's engineers are different gravy - their consoles always perform better in the end.
 
Mate, you don't just count two separate sets of cores as one cluster in a big.little configuration, you treat them as separate sets. Devs probably won't be caught optimising for two sets of cores either considering the latency penalty. One set(probably the smaller one) will be used to run the OS and background tasks, so the bigger cluster will be reserved for games. Same holds true for the other console. It's not 11 vs 10 (because 8 + 3 & 8+2), it's 8 vs 8 once again. And MLiD has been hopping between either 30 GB or 40 GB for the PS6 and he made it clear it wasn't final yet.

Full Zen 6 cores will run the same code faster than Zen 6 C.

PS6 will constrain next gen game development confirmed.

PS5 and PS6 handheld will.

One is costing 600 bucks at most…the other 1000 so yeah

No way in hell PS6 will be 600 with memory and NAND prices we have.

Not really, as a whole PS5 has been performing on part or better in most games. Especially with Ray Tracing, which was supposedly the Xbox Series X advantage on paper, but that never played out.

Not true. XSX was lately outperforming PS5 in most heavy games (both were trading blows through the whole gen). I'm not sure about RT but at launch Village was dropping frames on PS5 while being 60fps stable on SX with RT.
 
That's what your attitude towards him reveals when it bothers you when someone agrees with him even when he definitely is right 🤷

In a rational world, your concern should be directed at the person who claims something untrue in order to fabricate a narrative, but you prefer to go against the one who questions it for the reason we all know. 🙇
Because we all know why Adam annoys so many of you here...It's certainly not because of his attitude and behavior (which is generally healthy and respectful and much better than that of many who go around calling others "Shills" for not agreeing with them), it has more to do with his preferences. 😉🤷

You literally defending him. LOL That's a first sign. OK
 
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They need hardware powerful enough to basically brute force unoptimized games to run at higher frames with better visuals.

The Microsoft product won't be enough, but we could see an OEM provide something a bit more exciting in terms of hardware.
 
Helix will not be optimized as it is just PC. So the extra power would be wasted and you wouldn't see any difference. I say that as a PC gamer. 25% increase is barely anything consider that was roughly what Series X was to PS5. But the real result just isn't visible.

Look at it this way, back in the old days console wars are about being two or three times more powerful to affect what games you could make. Being just 25% stronger is laughable for what you are paying.
 
I just have to realize what kind of nonsense this guy is writing.

If I followed his logic, the console would have to be 25% more powerful than a 5090 if the PS6 already reaches 5090-level performance.🤣😂

Now, imagine what an APU with better 5090 performance would even look like. You can't achieve that with even the smallest nanometer process or architectural change. Utter, unrealistic nonsense.
 
You are forgetting that current Xbox (and maybe X1 as well?) is running custom Windows and there is no sign of overhead, API is very low level etc.



Based on memory prices, 600$ for PS6 looks like science fiction.

Current Xbox is a console and runs ownSKU of games . Next Xbox will be a PC with Windows and ability to install other stores, mods etc, and will run Windows version of games programmed for a myriad configurations. Forget the low level specialized API.
 
Current Xbox is a console and runs ownSKU of games . Next Xbox will be a PC with Windows and ability to install other stores, mods etc, and will run Windows version of games programmed for a myriad configurations. Forget the low level specialized API.

DX12 already is low level api. And we even have separate apps on GamePass PC (that can even be the same with console versions, just with different settings available).

We don't really know how Helix will operate, but for sure not like typical PC. Games will come with precompiled shaders similar to steam deck because you have one hardware config, MS already was talking about adding something like this to DirectX.
 
Current Xbox is a console and runs ownSKU of games . Next Xbox will be a PC with Windows and ability to install other stores, mods etc, and will run Windows version of games programmed for a myriad configurations. Forget the low level specialized API.

someone just managed to install linux on a PS5 and is already running GTA5 with raytraying at 50+fps.

all with community made drivers for hardware that doesn't fully comply with official AMD drivers.
and of course running through proton translation as well.

just sayin... I think you overestimate how different console and PC games are these days.
the way he can now play GTA5 on PS5 is arguably superior than the official port that locks you to 30fps with RT
 
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someone just managed to install linux on a PS5 and is already running GTA5 with raytraying at 50+fps.

all with community made drivers for hardware that doesn't fully comply with official AMD drivers.
and of course running through proton translation as well.

just sayin... I think you overestimate how different console and PC games are these days.
the way he can now play GTA5 on PS5 is arguably superior than the official port that locks you to 30fps with RT

Linux isn't that Windows garbage.
 
Microsoft DNA is software. Sony's DNA is hardware.

Doesn't matter how much 'faster' their console is, Sony's engineers are different gravy - their consoles always perform better in the end.
PS2 and PS3 aren't good hardwares, they're difficult to program due to complex architecture, especially the PS3.

PS4 and PS5 are fine and PS1 was a remarkable hardware for the time, easy to program and with impressive 3D capabilities.

Sony not always get right.
 
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Microsoft DNA is software. Sony's DNA is hardware.

Doesn't matter how much 'faster' their console is, Sony's engineers are different gravy - their consoles always perform better in the end.

lol.
those engineers had to be on holiday during the conception of the PS3 then... what a pos
 
I just have to realize what kind of nonsense this guy is writing.

If I followed his logic, the console would have to be 25% more powerful than a 5090 if the PS6 already reaches 5090-level performance.🤣😂

Now, imagine what an APU with better 5090 performance would even look like. You can't achieve that with even the smallest nanometer process or architectural change. Utter, unrealistic nonsense.

At the same time, it makes sense that whatever hardware a Playstation currently has, there can be another contemporary one that is 25% faster.
 
Oh shit .. I have a laptop that I also cant upgrade almost nothing...no one told me it was also a console...those fuckers.
Listen, is not that hard.
your laptop is the opposite of a console obv. Your laptop brand makes dozens of laptop models with hundreds of different hardware combinations with different CPUs, GPUs, RAM configurations, you name it.
No dev can optimize for "a laptop" because there's no single fixed target. It's philosophically and practically the exact opposite of what makes something a console.
so then the the ROG ally, Leigon Go, and MSI claw arent pc handhelds. they are consoles right?
Honestly? More console than PC, yes.
They have fixed, well-defined hardware specs and nothing stops a dev from optimizing for a ROG Ally or Legion Go exactly like they would for a PS5 or Switch 2.
The hardware target is there. Devs just don't bother because the market isn't there yet, not because they technically can't.

Steam Machine is even more of a console: fixed hardware + a custom OS that Valve will tailor specifically for it. At that point it's basically a console with less walled garden than Sony or Nintendo.

So yeah, the line between "PC handheld" and "console" is way blurrier than people think. Helix is a console, period.
 
- If these two consoles go on sale for over $800, Sony will likely still sell more than Microsoft but probably not in high volumes at least initially. The PS6 effectively becomes the PS5 Super Pro.

- Would some of the rumoured 25% advantage of Helix be offset by Windows/ OS overhead? Since Helix runs PC games, developers might not justify releasing an Xbox (console mode) version at all.

Thoughts?
 
The OG XBSX was more powerful than the OG PS5 and it still got regularly trumped in the face-offs by the weakling... the definition of insanity comes to mind.
 
Besides the bandwidth starvation my biggest disappointment is we'll be stuck on 8 cores for three generations already. If you told me back in 2013 that the PS6 would launch with 8 cores i would consider it a joke.

I was hoping we'll at least see a jump to 12 cores or even 16 cores. That devs would get the hang of multithreading to create more impressive interactive worlds
 
Did I miss something?

One is going to be a traditional console while the other is going to be a PC with a "console" mode, but still very much a PC.
 
Listen, is not that hard.
your laptop is the opposite of a console obv. Your laptop brand makes dozens of laptop models with hundreds of different hardware combinations with different CPUs, GPUs, RAM configurations, you name it.
No dev can optimize for "a laptop" because there's no single fixed target. It's philosophically and practically the exact opposite of what makes something a console.

Honestly? More console than PC, yes.
They have fixed, well-defined hardware specs and nothing stops a dev from optimizing for a ROG Ally or Legion Go exactly like they would for a PS5 or Switch 2.
The hardware target is there. Devs just don't bother because the market isn't there yet, not because they technically can't.

Steam Machine is even more of a console: fixed hardware + a custom OS that Valve will tailor specifically for it. At that point it's basically a console with less walled garden than Sony or Nintendo.

So yeah, the line between "PC handheld" and "console" is way blurrier than people think. Helix is a console, period.
If you keep moving goal posts nothing is hard fam ...
 
Omg, I need to know the price of this thing now!
nervous spongebob squarepants GIF



And you think that these will not be trading blows given the state some games release on PC?
You can forget about 1000$ price...this will be a 1500$ console....
 



With Microsoft having recently taken the first steps towards officially unveiling its next-generation Xbox, a new report by Moore's Law is Dead has offered more details about the differences in hardware between Project Helix and Sony's PS6. One of the biggest differences between the PS6's AMD Orion and Project Helix's AMD Magnus chips is their die size. While the former is believed to come in at 280 mm-squared in area, fabricated on TSMC's 3 nm process, the latter will seemingly have a much larger die, coming in at 408 mm-squared thanks to its combination of a 144 mm-squared SoC (system on a chip) and 264 mm-squared GPU. This also means that Project Helix will end up being more expensive than the PS6, since its chip is pricier to manufacture.

Another difference is how the compute units between Magnus and Orion have been set up. PS6 will seemingly run on 54 RDNA 5 compute units for its graphics, and 8 Zen 6c cores paired with 2 Zen 6 low-power cores dedicated to handling the operating system. This was, according to Moore's Law is Dead, reportedly gives a 20 percent boost in CPU power available for running games, when compared to the PS5's CPU which didn't have dedicated cores for the OS. Project Helix's Magnus, on the other hand, doesn't seem to have low-power cores. Rather, its CPU consists of up to 3 Zen 6 cores paired with 8 Zen 6c cores, while its GPU will have 68 RDNA 5 compute units.

Ultimately, the CPU powering Project Helix is noted as being more powerful thanks to its inclusion of Zen 6 cores, compared to the PS6's Zen 6c cores. However, the difference isn't expected to be too large between the two consoles when it comes to overall performance.

As for the GPU, Sony is reportedly targeting clock speeds of 3 GHz, which will result in performance of around 40 TFLOPS (trillion floating point operations per second). It is theorized to be capable of triple the rasterization performance of PS5, and up to 12 times the ray tracing performance. The Magnus chip powering Project Helix, however, is expected to be around 25 percent faster than the PS6 on paper. However, how this will play out in practice remains to be seen.

As for when these consoles might actually come out, Moore's Law is Dead expressed a belief that Sony is unlikely to actually delay the PS6. He noted that, while there are logistical issues that might drive up the cost right now owing to memory shortages and skyrocketing RAM prices, the company has dealt with similar issues just a few years ago, when the pandemic-induced lockdown caused similar problems with supply chains. To that end, he expects Sony to stick with its planned 2027 launch window, or maybe even push the console back to early 2028. However, a delay to 2029 is noted as being unlikely since it would cost the company more to disrupt its plans than it would to eat the inflated costs and launch the console as previously planned.

the wolf of wall street idgaf GIF

I mean it's no more a real xbox, can be even 4x more powerful, its almost completely pointless to compare to the ps6 specs.
 
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Full Zen 6 cores will run the same code faster than Zen 6 C.
It depends on whether Zen 6 will clock higher in Magnus than Zen 6C in PS6 and how much faster it would be. I do not think PS5 was held back by a completely redesigned FPU / VFPU pipeline in Zen 2 for example. Now Zen 6 LP sure, but that is for the OS.
 
Besides the bandwidth starvation my biggest disappointment is we'll be stuck on 8 cores for three generations already. If you told me back in 2013 that the PS6 would launch with 8 cores i would consider it a joke.

I was hoping we'll at least see a jump to 12 cores or even 16 cores. That devs would get the hang of multithreading to create more impressive interactive worlds
But 8 is an improvement from 6.5 cores in PS5. From 13 threads to 16 threads available to developers. And the thread will be much more potent with Zen 6. The vast majority of PS5 games were GPU limited, not CPU limited.
- If these two consoles go on sale for over $800, Sony will likely still sell more than Microsoft but probably not in high volumes at least initially. The PS6 effectively becomes the PS5 Super Pro.

- Would some of the rumoured 25% advantage of Helix be offset by Windows/ OS overhead? Since Helix runs PC games, developers might not justify releasing an Xbox (console mode) version at all.

Thoughts?
This but more importantly what SneakersSO said about Helix.

theres no Xbox Helix build target, its just a UWP build
MS about it:
developers can build once

There are going to be some innefficiencies added on top with that system.
 
But 8 is an improvement from 6.5 cores in PS5. From 13 threads to 16 threads available to developers. And the thread will be much more potent with Zen 6. The vast majority of PS5 games were GPU limited, not CPU limited.

This but more importantly what SneakersSO said about Helix.


MS about it:


There are going to be some innefficiencies added on top with that system.
Thanks mate. I missed that. So potentially could mean API overhead and less control over system level optimisations?
 
Hardware is not the issue, Xbox series X is more powerful and yet fails.

They are gonna burry a console in an AI TV PC'ish box that will fail on release.

They should try saving the current gen, or at least change the narrative, not focus a new machine with the same lack of software.
 
Xbox has a bad strategy imo. Helix should be the pro version of their next Xbox. They should release two consoles, a base and a pro. The base console would cost around 600€ and the pro around 1000€. This would satisfy everybody.
Their strategy this gen was not bad per se but the series S was just too weak and the series X not powerful enough.
Still, what matters is the GAMES.
 
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Why would someone throw that much money to get something that's just 25% faster than the new Sony console? Just add some more and get a PC, which will be 250% faster and last two generations.
 
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Helix will not be optimized as it is just PC. So the extra power would be wasted and you wouldn't see any difference. I say that as a PC gamer. 25% increase is barely anything consider that was roughly what Series X was to PS5. But the real result just isn't visible.
They are, especially with Unreal 5 games. It's more about if a developer takes the time to use the console power, sadly with PS being the lead platform for years, you don't see many 3rd party really making full use of the system, same goes for some of Xbox In-House teams mind.

Hopefully, with Xbox going early that might help it lead development on a few 3rd party games and also IF Xbox gets its tools in order
 
They are, especially with Unreal 5 games. It's more about if a developer takes the time to use the console power, sadly with PS being the lead platform for years, you don't see many 3rd party really making full use of the system, same goes for some of Xbox In-House teams mind.

Hopefully, with Xbox going early that might help it lead development on a few 3rd party games and also IF Xbox gets its tools in order
What are you on about? It is PC hardware, so you get NO lead development at all. You have no hope, zero. Xbox has to pay the price of getting every PC port by losing custom 3rd party games. This is because they were going to have many games skipping the Nexbox if it was a conventional console. That is the PC tax all PC gamers pay. Badly made ports.
 
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