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Sony appreciates "the CMA’s focus on protecting gamers" as it welcomes the announcement to further investigate the Activision acquisition

Markio128

Member
Except the PS3 lost something like 10b when all was said and done

You said that PS was never subsidized by Sony the way Xbox was from MS.

Ps1 and PS2 profits were eaten in the first 2 years and Sony continued to subsidize it well past that. They had to sell real estate and almost all thier assets during 08 and 09 to keep the company open.

People were talking about Japan government subsidizing them just because the insurance division couldn't fail.

Either way it makes little difference, but let's not pretend PlayStation was standing on its big boy feet pulling all the weight.

Claiming it's unfair for MS to subsidize Xbox, while Sony subsidized PS is plain hipocraxy.
I’m not claiming it is unfair at all. I only claimed that Sony and Nintendo are trying to run a profitable business model - to counter the upset the previous posters had with the increase in game prices. Sony obviously learned a lot from the PS3 disaster, which helped them tremendously in making the PS4 a success.
 

Kagey K

Banned
I’m not claiming it is unfair at all. I only claimed that Sony and Nintendo are trying to run a profitable business model - to counter the upset the previous posters had with the increase in game prices. Sony obviously learned a lot from the PS3 disaster, which helped them tremendously in making the PS4 a success.
Who says MS isn't running a profitable model as well?

They obviously learned from the 360.
 
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Markio128

Member
Whi says MS isn't running a profitable model as well?
Not me, but what I don’t think is fair is to criticise other business models. I want Sony to succeed purely because I love their games and I certainly don’t want MS or Nintendo to fail either because competition brings out the best in others. What I don’t want to see though is competition being killed off.

Edit: I’m still bitter about Dreamcast 😂
 
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Three

Member
Jez Corden at it again:

"I'm often accused of having Xbox bias for wanting this deal to go through — but the truth is pretty simple for me, this has nothing to do with Xbox. I barely play Call of Duty, for me, I couldn't care less if Call of Duty went exclusive to PlayStation forever. My biases lie only in what is good for Activision's developers, the games they make, and the people who play those games. It's my belief that games like Diablo Immortal would be far less user-hostile under Microsoft."

gif-closing-door.gif

The "this is for the greater good, not business" crowd has reached insane levels.
 
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Kagey K

Banned
Jez Corden at it again:

"I'm often accused of having Xbox bias for wanting this deal to go through — but the truth is pretty simple for me, this has nothing to do with Xbox. I barely play Call of Duty, for me, I couldn't care less if Call of Duty went exclusive to PlayStation forever. My biases lie only in what is good for Activision's developers, the games they make, and the people who play those games. It's my belief that games like Diablo Immortal would be far less user-hostile under Microsoft."

gif-closing-door.gif

The "this is for the greater good not business" crowd has reached insane levels.
He's not wrong even if you don't like to hear it.
 

drganon

Member
Jez Corden at it again:

"I'm often accused of having Xbox bias for wanting this deal to go through — but the truth is pretty simple for me, this has nothing to do with Xbox. I barely play Call of Duty, for me, I couldn't care less if Call of Duty went exclusive to PlayStation forever. My biases lie only in what is good for Activision's developers, the games they make, and the people who play those games. It's my belief that games like Diablo Immortal would be far less user-hostile under Microsoft."

gif-closing-door.gif

The "this is for the greater good, not business" crowd has reached insane levels.
Jez gets paid in xbox gift cards.
 

Mohonky

Member
Sega secured 6 weeks timed exclusivity for Tomb Raider 1 on Saturn in Europe. Didn't see anyone talking about taste of your own medicine back then when Tomb Raider 2 got cancelled for Sega. That was mainly because sega saturn barely sold anything too.
Yeh Sony actually bought 6 month exclusivity for Prince of Persia Sands of Time and I think Beyond Good and Evil back in the day in PAL territories only.

Completely bullahit
 

01011001

Banned
Yeh Sony actually bought 6 month exclusivity for Prince of Persia Sands of Time and I think Beyond Good and Evil back in the day in PAL territories only.

Completely bullahit

they also had a few months exclusivity on GTA San Andreas I think... fucking weird shit
 

Kagey K

Banned
You honestly think they would lower microtransactions in mobile games like Candy Crush and Diablo Immortal?

Based on what exactly? You think they hate money? Have you seen the microtransactions in Gears and Halo?
You obviously misunderstood my post. And then took.it off on another tangent.

It's fine, you do.you.
 

Kagey K

Banned
The hell are you talking about? I was talking Jez' quote about Diablo Immortal. Why did you reply to me then?
So one sentence out of multiple paragraphs was your take away?

He didn't even say it would change, just be less hostile.

Wtf.
 
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CeeJay

Member
Respectfully, I disagree on the basis of the perspective I outlined in post #475.

I feel like you're looking perhaps too narrowly, at a product level when I feel the crucial difference is overall commercial strategy. GamePass/Xcloud represents an attempt to establish a new commercial order for the industry, one in which MS cloud technology and storefronts are the nexus through which everything passes.

I don't fault MS for their ambition in the least, business is business. But my considered opinion is that it'll result in a far less appealing scene than we have today. I don't feel like the rise of streaming services has improved music, tv, or movies as artforms and I believe due to the economics it'll impact games far more than any of those other mediums.

My only real "problem" with Xbox is that I feel like they've underperformed on content generation since around the mid-point of the 360 era. Which is why I bring it up as a possible point of concern should they become market-leader.



The value of PSVR2 is that it lends support and visibility to the overall VR-entertainment market. It should help VR grow as its existence encourages more developers to try their hand at an exciting and new technology.




The problem with this argument is that its predicated on the idea that user-numbers are the thing that matters. When to me its all about the quality and variety of the content.

Look at the size of the mobile market and the insane amount of revenue it generates. In 2022 mobile is 51% of the total gaming market by revenue, but is that dominance reflected in the quality and variety of the product?

I really don't think it is.

My overriding concern is that the market and economic forces that shaped today's mobile scene will come to bear equally forcefully when the "traditional" gaming market becomes almost totally digitally distributed and operating via online storefronts.
We have both been using the term "grow the industry" and I just assumed that we were using the term synonymously when after reading this reply that this might not be the case. So, can we first determine whether we are both using the same definition? I will try to be as objective as possible and try to avoid putting any spin on this whatsoever, I hope that in good faith you can do the same.

So, I Googled;

"what does the term growing the industry mean?"

The result comes up as "growth industry", copy and pasted below un-edited.

A growth industry is that sector of an economy which experiences a higher-than-average growth rate as compared to other sectors. Growth industries are often new or pioneer industries that did not exist in the past. Their growth is a result of demand for new products or services offered by companies in the field.

This is around about how I understood it and was using the term. The industry is growing if there is a significant increase in revenue driven by higher demand, (now this is possibly where we may fork) and this higher demand can come from an increase in engagement of existing customers or from an increase in the number of customers. Now if we are talking about industry wide this doesn't mean poaching customers from other competitors. To qualify as industry growth these numbers would have to come from outside existing customer numbers. do we agree so far?

Above is industry agnostic but here are a few thoughts of mine (again trying to keep it objective) from this relating specifically to the games industry;

An increase in customers in the games industry means widening the appeal to people who were previously uninterested or previously excluded. They may have been previously uninterested because the types of experiences didn't appeal and they may have previously been uninterested or excluded due to the financial cost or lack of availability. There are many reasons why this could be the case. The nub of this though is about bringing in new people. Are we still in agreement?

So, how to do that and again i'll try and keep it broad.

Lower barriers to entry
making current products and services more accessible/appealing
increase appeal to a wider range of demographics
new experiences
expanding into untapped territories/markets

Are there any i've missed?

Now, I am not going to elaborate on these points any further in this post as that is adding bias and subjectivity that we can disagree about, I just wanted to try and set some common ground to move forward from. AGAIN, I have tried to be as objective and bias free as possible here and if in your reply you continue the whole Sony = good / Microsoft = bad routine then we are done.
 

Neofire

Member
"Jim and company did this to themselves"

Fucking how? Exactly what could they do to stop ABK from being purchased by Microsoft?
You should really be ashamed of how emotional you got in your reply. Where did I say Sony could have stopped the buy out?

Sony and Jim Ryan did this shit to themselves by relying on so heavily on 3rd party games like CoD. There is a reason these companies have entire market strategy departments to have contingencies for scenarios like this and the way Sony is making a ruckus about it they were caught looking stupid with this announcement.

I expect MS to do exactly the same they did with Bethesda and start pulling future games to only Xbox/PC and a part of me doesn't blame them. Maybe this move will open Sony's eyes that they should be worried about their own ecosystem and instead of trying play this imaginary kumbaya all games on all platforms MS is speaking about but doing the opposite.
 
He's not wrong even if you don't like to hear it.
He is wrong. Halo is plenty user-hostile with the insane pricing on armour packs, like too many games nowadays. COD has been Pay to Win for years and Diablo 4 is already stuffed with MTX (apparently). Microsoft (or any other company) won't reverse or remove those revenue streams

And if he doesn't care for the games, he should know what a disaster this will be for gambling protections and the reversal of predatory MTX. Not to mention how it will be open season for streaming store fronts once this deal goes through.

If you think the splintering of content across Netflix, hulu, amazon, HBO and Disney was bad, gaming will be following suit
 

Neofire

Member
Final Fantasy exclusive deal is temporary?
You know exactly what he means and last I checked the Xbox has almost every modern final fantasy game except 14(which is completely NS's fault for their policies) and 16 which I'm sure MS will grease the wheel and get it on the Xbox too like they did 15.
 

GHG

Gold Member
Just like Phil, he said whe are not done with buying developers (and publishers)....

He's bluffing.

The best case scenario for them is that Sony goes out there and does another acquisition (or at the very least attempts one and that becomes public) while this deal is under investigation.

I have no doubts Microsoft will go on another major buying spree if the Activision deal goes through but them making further purchases while it's under investigation doesn't help their case.
 
I'm not sure what you're getting at moose, are you saying Sony doesnt monayhat games or am i missreading you?.
My point was that they all have moneyhatted games, moneyhatted dlc, got exclusivity deals etc. Ninetndo was ridiculous with it in the Snes days.
Just like MS in the 360 days....
 

KingT731

Member
It's not that simple. Being the market leader with the significantly larger user base, Sony can purchase exclusivity at amuch lower cost. It's like this, if a game is predicted to sell 70% on PlayStation and 30% on Xbox, Microsoft would have to pay enough to cover that 70% loss, while PlayStation would only need to account for the 30% loss.

This is what a true unfair advantage looks like, one that actually does harm gamers. This is what Sony is afraid to lose and they are sad hypocrites who are actively harming gamers with their price gouging and strong arm keep away contracts.
Nobody in their right mind would do as you suggest. That would, in most cases, be the first line of business..."I'm expected to make $x & your platform is expected to account for x% based on our estimates/budget/marketing costs etc." Now do you be "fair" and ignore your own financial requirements? Absolutely not and you would negotiate compensation.
 

S0ULZB0URNE

Member
It's different but buying years of exclusivity is even more annoying than a company being absorbed. When Insomniac makes a game, I know it's a Sony product now. When Square reveals a game, it may or may not come to Xbox so Xbox-only gamers are hopeful until exclusivity is revealed. It's more annoying that way in my opinion. At least now, when Diablo 5 is announced, most will know it's a MS product and is most likely not coming to PS5 instead of MS paying for 2 years of exclusivity. You're just on the blue side so you see it differently. I own both so it doesn't matter as much. It still matters since I sub to Game Pass but I'd fork over the money for D5 the same way I am buying GoW Ragnarok and the next Naughty Dog game. You can keep complaining but companies buy companies. A lot of people want Spiderman on Xbox but no one is going back and forth about how it isn't fair that Sony owns Insomniac. We don't even know if this deal is going through for sure.
I find buying a company to be smart but worse.

I am not on either side.
Sony usually offers a better product 🤷‍♂️ so they get more love but don't get it twisted I game on multiple devices including Series X.

The Spider-Man example is comically bad 🤫

Who has a history of putting multiple IP they own on platforms they don't? Sony and MS and not anything alike in this regard.
Both MS and Sony.
Out of all platform holders only one increased game prices and more recently their hardware/console prices. You know. for the gamers.
So now we spin platform holders? Who raised the price 1st?(hint it wasn't Sony)
Also who owns the $70 COD?
Before you respond saying MS don't own it yet... Let me ask you a question...

If this deal gets approved is MS going to drop the $70 price of COD?

We know the answer but I look forward to your response 😉
 
Sony is really shook huh. Better to be silent and make plans behind the scenes. You bought fucking Bungie for god sake.
What are you talking about? So you are sugesting buying a developer aka Bungie (that demands that all theyr games will be multiplatform and Sony agreed to that, so all new games from Bungie are coming to Xbox) And buying complete publishers and all the franchises of the publishers and keeping games from another platform is the same? O, boy......
 

GHG

Gold Member
I think that any declaration Sony gives about the acquisition right now, might be used against them later. It would be better to shut up.

It's the opposite actually, right now everything Microsoft say can be used against them by the regulators. Sony are not the ones being investigated, they have nothing to lose in this scenario. If they don't oppose it the deal just goes through, so they will firmly be in hail Mary mode while they can.

For Sony the best case scenario is that Microsoft's lawyers are like SenjutsuSage SenjutsuSage and Jez Corden. Which I doubt but stranger things have happened.
 
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Corndog

Banned
What are you talking about? So you are sugesting buying a developer aka Bungie (that demands that all theyr games will be multiplatform and Sony agreed to that, so all new games from Bungie are coming to Xbox) And buying complete publishers and all the franchises of the publishers and keeping games from another platform is the same? O, boy......
Do you really thing bungie is not going to make an exclusive game in the future? You are being naive.

Edit: read the wording. Future games currently in development will be multiplat. It doesn’t say anything about future games they haven’t started on yet.
https://www.ign.com/articles/bungie-future-games-not-playstation-exclusives
 
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geary

Member
It's the opposite actually, right now everything Microsoft say can be used against them by the regulators. Sony are not the ones being investigated, they have nothing to lose in this scenario. If they don't oppose it the deal just goes through, so they will firmly be in hail Mary mode while they can.

For Sony the best case scenario is that Microsoft's lawyers are like SenjutsuSage SenjutsuSage and Jez Corden. Which I doubt but stranger things have happened.
Right now, PS have a preferential contract with Activision vs Xbox, where they have marketing rights and exclusivity on some features. The new contract of 3 years MS have offered might not have these clauses and Sony coming out and saying that the offer was subpar, might not look good.

How would have look like if MS would have come into media few years ago and say that the Activation contract offer was subpar due to not having marketing rights and exclusive features?

Now, probably will keep some features and marketing rights of the new COD to themselves. Sony cannot argue that, and come in the media to whine why don't get the same contract as before. This would not look good at all.

The problem Sony has now is that they wont have the same bargaining power when will discuss new contracts, and that's what's hurting them.
 
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GHG

Gold Member
Right now, PS have a preferential contract with Activision vs Xbox, where they have marketing rights and exclusivity on some features. The new contract of 3 years MS have offered might not have these clauses and Sony coming out and saying that the offer was subpar, might not look good.

How would have look like if MS would have come into media few years ago and say that the Activation contract offer was subpar due to not having marketing rights and exclusive features?

Now, probably will keep some features and marketing rights of the new COD to themselves. Sony cannot argue that, and come in the media to whine why don't get the same contract as before. This would not look good at all.

Honestly, I don't think they care about the long term relationship with Microsoft or what happens to CoD after the existing deal, but that's just me.

If they did they certainly wouldn't be saying the things they are regarding the acquisition and they would quietly take whatever deal Microsoft are offering them. They can see that Microsoft are attempting a power play on them at the moment via financial dominance and they are simply refusing to come to the table. What Microsoft are currently offering them is akin to a pity deal, accepting it without a fight would be weak.
 
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Banjo64

cumsessed
Right now, PS have a preferential contract with Activision vs Xbox, where they have marketing rights and exclusivity on some features. The new contract of 3 years MS have offered might not have these clauses and Sony coming out and saying that the offer was subpar, might not look good.
That’s not within the remit of the regulators AFAIK.

They are looking at whether MS owning Acti (alongside their cloud infrastructure, existing first party, subscription service and brand recognition on the gaming space) could reduce competition in the market and prevent future entrants in to the space.
 

geary

Member
MS offered another 3 years of COD on PS with a certain contract. PS came out and said the contract was supar.
 
Entirely wrong, according to the CEO of Microsoft gaming. No need to make things up.
And you believe Phil Spencer, the CEO of Microsoft gaming? The same Phil that has been been a liar and a flipflopper on so many questions that where ask? In one interview he said something and a few month later in an other interview about the same question he said something completly different?
Phil said GP is sustanable, thats not the same as making profit on GP.
 

GHG

Gold Member
Not stopping MS from publishing their own Spider-Man game.

They were also offered the opportunity by Marvel. They could even go to DC and work something out if they really wanted their own superhero game.

The same way there's nothing stopping them from approaching square and partnering with them to remake FF VIII for example (I'd buy it, in fact if buy it multiple times).

All the petty false equivalences come down to is the fact that these guys feel entitled to having every game on the one box (or rather, the one subscription service) they purchased because a certain man said "exclusives are bad".

It's gone from "I'm not interested in those games" to "why can't we have those games 😭" very quickly. Quite telling really.

I'd love to see Microsoft attempting to use those specific examples (among others that have been brought up in recent weeks) as counter arguments to the regulators but can't see it unfortunately. They wouldn't be so stupid.
 
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Clear

CliffyB's Cock Holster
We have both been using the term "grow the industry" and I just assumed that we were using the term synonymously when after reading this reply that this might not be the case. So, can we first determine whether we are both using the same definition? I will try to be as objective as possible and try to avoid putting any spin on this whatsoever, I hope that in good faith you can do the same.

So, I Googled;

"what does the term growing the industry mean?"

The result comes up as "growth industry", copy and pasted below un-edited.



This is around about how I understood it and was using the term. The industry is growing if there is a significant increase in revenue driven by higher demand, (now this is possibly where we may fork) and this higher demand can come from an increase in engagement of existing customers or from an increase in the number of customers. Now if we are talking about industry wide this doesn't mean poaching customers from other competitors. To qualify as industry growth these numbers would have to come from outside existing customer numbers. do we agree so far?

I agree totally that what you wrote is a legitimate formulation of what constitutes growth, but I'd argue that as we're essentially talking about art/entertainment there's more to it than simple economic metrics. The cultural aspect is very important for sustainability and depth/breadth of audience enthusiasm in non-essential goods.

Above is industry agnostic but here are a few thoughts of mine (again trying to keep it objective) from this relating specifically to the games industry;

An increase in customers in the games industry means widening the appeal to people who were previously uninterested or previously excluded. They may have been previously uninterested because the types of experiences didn't appeal and they may have previously been uninterested or excluded due to the financial cost or lack of availability. There are many reasons why this could be the case. The nub of this though is about bringing in new people. Are we still in agreement?

So, how to do that and again i'll try and keep it broad.

Lower barriers to entry
making current products and services more accessible/appealing
increase appeal to a wider range of demographics
new experiences
expanding into untapped territories/markets

Are there any i've missed?

As someone who's been gaming since the 1970's I'd counter that gaming has always had relatively low-barriers to entry. I don't believe its ever been prohibitively expensive, and in fact I suspect that when inflation and income levels are factored in its at worst remained fairly static cost-wise over the decades. Its hard to quantify because the market's always been multi-dimensional, and obviously technology has greatly broadened the range of gaming devices available.

Your other points I agree are all positives, although there's a lot of wiggle-room on their exact meaning! Which is where I feel we're not on the same page exactly.

For example, I feel like your opinion is that services like Gamepass are a net positive for both the industry and the audience, and your belief is rooted (at least in part) in the factors listed above.

I don't find that take (if indeed, it is where you stand) to be ignorant or unreasonable, I just disagree with the position.

Now, I am not going to elaborate on these points any further in this post as that is adding bias and subjectivity that we can disagree about, I just wanted to try and set some common ground to move forward from. AGAIN, I have tried to be as objective and bias free as possible here and if in your reply you continue the whole Sony = good / Microsoft = bad routine then we are done.

I don't think subjectivity is avoidable to be truthful. I try and support my arguments with objective observations, but ultimately the cumulative picture is always going to be a subjective take because we're trying to predict future outcomes! No crystal ball here, all I can do is look at past and present performance and try and extrapolate forwards.

I'm not, and never have tried to make an argument that Sony are "good" and MS are "bad". As I wrote in an earlier post I don't fault MS in the slightest for their chosen strategy, taking a radically disruptive approach is the right move for them.

I just happen to believe that a number of elements of their business plan are not broadly beneficial to the industry and gaming culture generally. These are things I've believed for years, and are not reactionary to the fact that MS is employing them.

For example I've always believed massive corporate consolidation is bad because when you have so many eggs in the same basket it becomes more about maintaining the integrity of the basket than items contained within. Similarly "a-la-carte" services have always concerned me because I feel like they cheapen the perceived value of the product, its an effect I've seen many times over the years going back to 80's when I saw what happened with people in the "warez" scene. Abundance blunts enthusiasm, it doesn't sharpen it.
 

DenchDeckard

Moderated wildly
So, if this does go through....is the offering soured with Sony. I can totally see MS being a dick with them on COD after this which is understandable all things considered but no one can expect Sony to just take this laying down. They have to fight this thing tooth and nail.

I just want it to be over one way or another, but now thanks to it going public...theres major damage. Whichever way it goes its going to be insufferable dealing with the "winning" sides craziest fans. Either side.
 
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