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Sandman is coming to Netflix on August 5, 2022

FunkMiller

Gold Member
Ok I see you missed the latter half of my post. I don't understand how, but you did.

Here's the latter half:

Please pay attention next time.
So atleast all the evil characters are left to be of a lighter skin tone and the sympathetic characters are being changed into darker skin tone. As stated I don't know the reasons behind such changes, but the reasons could be racist. Or maybe not. Maybe I'm looking too much into it.

So… you do think the reasons for changing the character’s race from white to black could be racist. You think Neil Gaiman could be racist because he made those changes.

I’m just trying work out how anyone can think swapping a white character for a black character is racist in a show with multiple white characters, starring a white character as the main protagonist.
 
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John Bilbo

Member
So… you do think the reasons for changing the character’s race from white to black could be racist. You think Neil Gaiman could be racist because he made those changes.
Yes, the reasons behind the castings of the characters could be racist. Also they could be sexist. But I think it would be safe to say that it takes more than one season of one show to safely make such claims.

At this point it is possible to view the changes that way, but there is no way to know for sure. That is why I wrote they seem a bit racist.

So what is your contribution to this discussion other than putting words in my mouth and saying I've lost it when you cannot read my whole messages?
 

John Bilbo

Member
I’m just trying work out how anyone can think swapping a white character for a black character is racist in a show with multiple white characters, starring a white character as the main protagonist.
That wasn't my argument. You know it, I know it, we all know it.
 

DKehoe

Gold Member
I’m only a few episodes in but it’s interesting seeing them rework things to have Corinthian be the big villain of the season. I guess it makes sense since they’re doing volumes 1 & 2 this season (or at least part of volume 2? Not sure how far in it gets) and it gives things a bit more of a traditional structure with an antagonist figure being present throughout.
 

John Bilbo

Member
Then what is your argument? I’m literally replying to the posts you are making.

How could casting a black actor be considered racist in any way? You say the reasons could be racist? What are those reasons?
chris jericho what GIF by CBC


They changed the skin tone of many of the sympathetic characters to darker ones and female while the skin tone of many of the evil characters remained light and male.

Jesus this was a waste of my time. It was disappointing discussing with you FunkMiller.
 

FunkMiller

Gold Member
I’m only a few episodes in but it’s interesting seeing them rework things to have Corinthian be the big villain of the season. I guess it makes sense since they’re doing volumes 1 & 2 this season (or at least part of volume 2? Not sure how far in it gets) and it gives things a bit more of a traditional structure with an antagonist figure being present throughout.

Yeah. It's a concession I can live with, although I don't like it that much. Sandman is extremely episodic, with the stories barely having any linking material after he gets his vestments back, so I guess they felt they needed some sort of throughline for the whole season.
 

FunkMiller

Gold Member
They changed the skin tone of many of the sympathetic characters to darker ones and female while the skin tone of many of the evil characters remained light and male.

Jesus this was a waste of my time. It was disappointing discussing with you FunkMiller.

Oh, so now it's race changes and gender changes. Right, gotcha.

Dude. You just don't like the fact that they race and gender swapped some characters in the show. But instead of just coming out and saying it (probably because you know how that would sound), you've decided to pitch it that Neil Gaiman could somehow seemingly be racist by changing white characters to black ones. The incredibly white Neil Gaiman, somehow racist against white people. In the series that stars a really pasty white dude as the main, sympathetic protagonist. With other white sympathetic characters like Hob Gadling, Hal Carter and Fiddler's Green in it as well.

The Rock Reaction GIF by WWE
 
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DKehoe

Gold Member
Yeah. It's a concession I can live with, although I don't like it that much. Sandman is extremely episodic, with the stories barely having any linking material after he gets his vestments back, so I guess they felt they needed some sort of throughline for the whole season.
Yeh, I get not wanting to do just Preludes and Nocturnes as the whole season because as much as I do love it you’re really ending things just at the point where he’s ready and back to full strength. And so I can get not wanting to have a whole season that’s just build up. So you want something that ties those two sections together. And while Corinthian isn’t really a threat to Dream in the comics as such I can understand why you’d pick him as your antagonist because “Dream vs a Nightmare” makes sense on a surface level as something to capture casual viewer’s interest. And obviously it helps that he has this really distinct look with his eyes and functions like a serial killer, something that’s always going to grab people’s attention.

I’m really curious to see how they handle the parts that are essentially a series of short stories with only tangential links to Dream and the overall plot.
 

FunkMiller

Gold Member
I’m really curious to see how they handle the parts that are essentially a series of short stories with only tangential links to Dream and the overall plot.

Me too. Are they going to do the cat story, for instance? All the Midsummer Night's Dream stuff? I get the feeling season two will feature a lot more changes.
 

John Bilbo

Member
Oh, so now it's race changes and gender changes. Right, gotcha.

Dude. You just don't like the fact that they race and gender swapped some characters in the show. But instead of just coming out and saying it (probably because you know how that would sound), you've decided to pitch it that Neil Gaiman could somehow seemingly be racist by changing white characters to black ones. The incredibly white Neil Gaiman, somehow racist against white people. In the series that stars a really pasty white dude as the main, sympathetic protagonist. With other white sympathetic characters like Hob Gadling and Fiddler's Green in it as well.

The Rock Reaction GIF by WWE
You really do have severe issues with reading comprehension AND attention. I wrote about skin tones and actors and actresses all along. I wrote about casting as a whole.

Also no matter how you try, you cannot read my or anyone elses' mind.

None the less, best of luck to you man.
 

DKehoe

Gold Member
Me too. Are they going to do the cat story, for instance? All the Midsummer Night's Dream stuff? I get the feeling season two will feature a lot more changes.
Midsummer Night’s Dream is kind of one of the iconic parts of the story, particularly since it won a World Fantasy Award. So it would feel odd to miss it. But I can also see it throwing a lot of people off and the executives wanting to keep things more streamlined.

Maybe they end up doing something like animated shorts released separately from the main season.
 
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AfricanKing

Member
chris jericho what GIF by CBC


They changed the skin tone of many of the sympathetic characters to darker ones and female while the skin tone of many of the evil characters remained light and male.

Jesus this was a waste of my time. It was disappointing discussing with you FunkMiller.

You have zero clue to what racism is my guy ..

Using your logic only white people can play the good guys .. god forbid a role depicting something good is giving to a person of colour.
 

jason10mm

Gold Member
I’m sure no one will give a shit, but I think I’ll be done with this site if this kind of nasty, pathetic homophobic shit is allowed to stay posted.
.
Just block him and move on.
f folks have issues with this Sandman adaptation, then it’s Neil Gaiman’s fault… and maybe Sandman isn’t for you. Go watch something a little more conservative.
Sounds to me like this isn't the Sandman adaption I want, so I'm gonna pass. Maybe pop in for the century skiping pub meet up ep, if they do that one.
 

FunkMiller

Gold Member
Just block him and move on.

Sounds to me like this isn't the Sandman adaption I want, so I'm gonna pass. Maybe pop in for the century skiping pub meet up ep, if they do that one.

Sound advice (y)

They do cover Hobb, and it's very well done. Probably the best episode of the whole thing, to be honest. The diner is toned down too much, and Gwendoline Christie isn't strong or imposing enough an actress to really do Lucifer justice.
 

Hugare

Member
But - I couldn't stand how much infected the show is with LGBT virus, literally every 20min. just had to have a gay romance/sex scene, I literally had to stop watching the show and take a break, if it wasn't for that I'd most likely binge watched the whole show in one sitting. Whoever dumbasses are in charge at Netflix need to realise that for normal people it's simply disgusting, and there's a limit of how much you can swallow, and this show greatly exceeds it within just first two episodes... Seriously, I can't recall anything even remotely comparable.

So either way, if there's gonna be another season I'll watch it as well, if not, I won't be missing anything.
Sad to see such blatant homophobia on this forum going unnoticed by the mods (or maybe just ignored?)

This goes way beyond "freedom of speech"

Disgusting shit
 

jdforge

Banned
Annoyingly the more I watch the less I like this.

Leading up to and after he gets his tools back the LGBTQ+ slant goes way too far to be anywhere near representative. It’s like the writers think everyone wants to and should engage in same sex activities.

Dreams also has the most annoying looking lower jaw/chin that I’ve ever seen on a person.
 

Tams

Gold Member
Sad to see such blatant homophobia on this forum going unnoticed by the mods (or maybe just ignored?)

This goes way beyond "freedom of speech"

Disgusting shit
Perhaps ZywyPL ZywyPL went a bit far there, but you can see why. The show pushes it far too hard for a show that's central premise is not anything to do with sex, let along LGBTQ+ (seriously, the acronym has gotten too much and should just be abandoned).
 

SJRB

Gold Member
Knowing absolutely nothing about the source material, having just finished the first episode and I'm not sure if it's cool or dumb as fuck.

Will stick around for Boyd Holbrook, that guy is awesome.
 

FunkMiller

Gold Member
Knowing absolutely nothing about the source material, having just finished the first episode and I'm not sure if it's cool or dumb as fuck.

Little of column A. Little of column B. Pretty much everything Neil Gaiman makes, to be honest. Super cool, super smart, and super fucking goofy all rolled into one.

And it’s absolutely true that Gaiman has deliberately altered the race and gender of many characters to be more inclusive.

Do any of the changes spoil the story of Sandman? Nope. Not at all. It’s a really decent adaptation. And I’ve read through most volumes multiple times. It’s not perfect, obviously… but it pretty much hits all the notes it should. I’m actually quite surprised.
 
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Started off strong and ended with a whimper. The resolution to both the Corinthian and the Vortex plots were as anti-climactic as they come...
The CG work was, yet again, uneven as hell, ranging from good to horrible.
The acting was mostly good, except for Oswald, whose voice just took me out of the experience whenever the raven would speak...It belongs in a kids' show, imo.
And why is almost everybody gay? I have not read the comic, but I imagine it being the case in the source material?
A bit disappointed, as I had expected more upon watching the first four episodes...but hey, it could have beem much worse.
 

Alx

Member
Only watched two episodes, I’m not too fond of the execution in general. The storytelling is too linear and grounded, there are too few scenes showing how dreams can be both confusing and making their own sense, something that the comics did well.
I don’t like the voice of Morpheus, and his sluggishness in everything he does (sure he’s weakened but that’s not how I would picture it). Also his skin tone is inconsistent, sometimes he’s white-pale like in the comics, and sometimes he has a human pinkish hue.
Otherwise the story is fine, but I’d rather read the comics again. Johanna Constantine seems interesting (loved Clara in Dr Who), Lucienne is fine. I’ll probably skip to the last episode to see « you know who ». Also the convention one, and the duel for the helmet of course.
Oh well, I guess I’ll watch it all…
 
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Wildebeest

Member
Two episodes in and my main criticism they inserted the Corinthian too early in the story and overused him. His scenes are even boring. You have scenes with Charles Dance, Caine and Abel, then this dickwad. It isn't a small thing as this is dark fantasy and the "monster of the week" is always Sandman himself.
 
Little of column A. Little of column B. Pretty much everything Neil Gaiman makes, to be honest. Super cool, super smart, and super fucking goofy all rolled into one.

And it’s absolutely true that Gaiman has deliberately altered the race and gender of many characters to be more inclusive.

Do any of the changes spoil the story of Sandman? Nope. Not at all. It’s a really decent adaptation. And I’ve read through most volumes multiple times. It’s not perfect, obviously… but it pretty much hits all the notes it should. I’m actually quite surprised.
I’m not sure what was super cool or super smart so far - 5 episodes in.
 

lifa-cobex

Member
Seven episodes in with a very vague memory of the comic.
Not too bad of a show. Diner scene was pretty cool. CGI is not too bad, casting and acting isn't too bad either.

Gay Typography GIF

I think every episode so far has at least one gay character in and multi racial couple.
It feels really forced.
It got to a point where I started guessing who was gonna bang who.
Guy walks into kitchen to talk to the chef in the in dinner scene. "yup, here we go"
Everyone is into everyone.

Not too impressed with the gender swaps. Bizarre but whatever.
Good to see some old British actors back on the screen.
Always pleased to see Stephen Fry.

Must admit though, It's becoming a bit of a drag. Very episodic stories wrapped together with the main villain not really being that interesting.
I don't think he was that big of a deal in the comics?
 
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BadBurger

Is 'That Pure Potato'
Well its netflix...its given.

It's one of the reasons I dropped my Netflix sub. They take great properties in obvious attempts to attract a sort of built-in fanbase, then make the most curious casting decisions.

Note: I haven't seen the show yet, merely seen trailers, leaked segments of the show, and all of the promotional material available to everyone

Examples here, as a fan of the comic and novel, are the four characters who are absolutely iconic in imagery:
  • Death: she made being a goth cool and interesting before goth was really even a thing in the broader zeitgeist. How does Netflix deal with the character? Race-swaps her and pretty much removes anything about her that made her so visually striking and iconic in the first place. Is she the same character wise where it matters? I guess I'll find out when I finally get the chance to watch this
  • Rose Walker: explained in excruciating detail as a young white woman with the physicality and demeanor of a dancer, but somehow still strangely older in a way beyond her years. Race-swapped with someone who I personally would not describe as such aside from being young and a woman
  • The Corinthian: they kept him the same, just updated the wardrobe and haircut. Edit: oh and they made him homosexual, which is whatever, but he's literally an escaped nightmare from the dreaming world. He was not a sexual being aside from appearing attractive to humans in order to lure them in - in a clearly kind of Ted Bundy serial killer way
  • Fiddler's Green
    : they seemed to go out of their way to find the exact right actor to portray this character from the books, and also even gave him the appropriate wardrobe
And finally they decided to cut corners and have Johanna Constantine also effectively portray John Constantine. Not a terrible decision, I get it, and there may have also been some licensing / IP issues there, but what a let down for us Constantine fans.
 
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So I was watching episode 5 and, apparently, deep down everyone can be gay - it’s a choice according to this show. And yes, the episodes do drag. And what’s the ruby’s powers?
 

Tieno

Member
I saw episode 2 and the Kain and Able story was adorable.
Never knew of The Sandman but thus far I'm intrigued, it's very out there.
 

SJRB

Gold Member
Who knew that everyone in the world was gay and in a multi racial relationship

Is that adapted 1:1 from the comic or is this Netflix being Netflix?

Kinda rolled my eyes when 20 minutes into the first episode the show is like "hey look, interracial gay couple! Look at this!"
 
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NeonGhost

uses 'M$' - What year is it? Not 2002.
Is that adapted 1:1 from the comic or is this Netflix being Netflix?

Kinda rolled my eyes when 20 minutes into the first episode the show is like "hey look, interracial gay couple! Look at this!"
Pretty much every character is race and gender swapped except for the main character
 

Chronicle

Member
Jesus F. Christ I go into the thread wanting to read some impressions and all I get is yet another whinefest about skin color this, racist that.
This. I came in here to see what this show was about and yet another cuck is in here crying about gender and skin colour. Give it up dude. Same as in The Bayman thread. A gang that's 85% white has people throwing tantrums. Brutal. They're not hidden messages. It's not a conspiracy. People of colour live on our societies. Let's share the fun.
 

jufonuk

not tag worthy
Pretty much every character is race and gender swapped except for the main character
I don’t care about this I just care if the show itself is good to watch. I do not know anything about the show. I’m going in blind. I just want a nice show to watch.

What’s the verdict ? Stream or pass.

I was willing to give cowboy bebop Netflix adaption a chance on its own merit, I’m gonna say it. It wasn’t that bad.
 
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Alx

Member
Very episodic stories wrapped together with the main villain not really being that interesting.
I don't think he was that big of a deal in the comics?
Reading the summary of the episodes, it seems that the big villain is
the Corinthian
?
In that case he wasn't a big deal in the comics indeed,
he only appears in the "cereal convention" story as a runaway nightmare and Morpheus is all "ok little dream, party's over, I'm destroying you because you're annoying and not that great of a nightmare after all".
He gets recreated in later stories as a perfectly obedient lackey and goes on errands for Morpheus along with Matthew.
 
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Kimahri

Banned
I don’t care about this I just care if the show itself is good to watch. I do not know anything about the show. I’m going in blind. I just want a nice show to watch.

What’s the verdict ? Stream or pass.

I was willing to give cowboy bebop Netflix adaption a chance on its own merit, I’m gonna say it. It wasn’t that bad.
It's good for the first half. Stop after episode 5. It's just drawn out and lacks focus after that.
 
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FunkMiller

Gold Member
Well its netflix...its given.
It's one of the reasons I dropped my Netflix sub. They take great properties in obvious attempts to attract a sort of built-in fanbase, then make the most curious casting decisions.
Is that adapted 1:1 from the comic or is this Netflix being Netflix?

Kinda rolled my eyes when 20 minutes into the first episode the show is like "hey look, interracial gay couple! Look at this!"

Every single change in race and gender was made or approved by Neil Gaiman. He exec produced this show, and wrote it.

Have to ask... Are any of you actually Neil Gaiman or Sandman fans? Because it doesn’t really sound like it. It feels like you’ve seen a few panels of the comic at some point, and seen that people look different in this adaptation.

Dunk on the show’s changes if you want, but realise you’re dunking on the guy who created the whole thing, at least.
 
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FunkMiller

Gold Member
It's good for the first half. Stop after episode 5. It's just drawn out and lacks focus after that.

The comic does this as well. It’s really a series of short stories without that much connective tissue after Morpheus is restored. Not surprised it feels like it has a lack of focus.
 
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FunkMiller

Gold Member
I don’t care about this I just care if the show itself is good to watch. I do not know anything about the show. I’m going in blind. I just want a nice show to watch.

What’s the verdict ? Stream or pass.

I was willing to give cowboy bebop Netflix adaption a chance on its own merit, I’m gonna say it. It wasn’t that bad.

Apart from the race and gender changes, it’s a pretty faithful adaptation. If you’re a fan of the comic then you’ll like it. If not, probably not.
 

Alx

Member
Dunk on the show’s changes if you want, but realise you’re dunking on the guy who created the whole thing, at least.

There may have been a missed opportunity there tbh. It's visible in the comics that the Endless appearance varies depending on who's watching them. Morpheus appears as a fire god to Martian Manhunter, a cat to Bubastis (or the cat population), a black man to Nada, ... there is a lot of room to explain a change in appearance, but in this case it breaks some of the consistency/symbolism of the comics. In their default appearance, almost all of the Endless appear with a milky-white skin (except for Destruction, who may be a special case, and maybe Destiny). They do have a very similar, sibling-like look (and one that is reminiscent of Gaiman's own look, so one could think it's "how they would appear to the author").
Maybe Gaiman approved that Death doesn't look like her brother in her default appearance, but it's a bit of a pity imo (still ready to change my mind once I've watched ep6).
(that only goes for the Endless, all other characters are ok to change any way they want, it doesn't really matter)

The comic does this as well. It’s really a series of short stories without that much connective tissue after Morpheus is restored. Not surprised it feels like it has a lack of focus.

Yeah and to be honest I usually prefer some of the random stories to the major arcs, those could feel unnecessary long and confusing. The ones with the Vortex or the Cuckoo especially I didn't like as much.
 
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Wildebeest

Member
Neil Gaiman isn't a god of TV adaptation. American Gods was actually just sort of bad, despite having money lavished on it, having a great cast, and being based on some pretty great novels. The plodding formulaic aspect of it, especially its tedious reworking of characters to make them recurring regulars with new sub-plots, brought it down. That's why when I see Corinthian showing up just so much and being a charisma vacuum sucking life out of the first two episodes, it is a big danger sign to me.
 

SJRB

Gold Member
Every single change in race and gender was made or approved by Neil Gaiman. He exec produced this show, and wrote it.

Have to ask... Are any of you actually Neil Gaiman or Sandman fans? Because it doesn’t really sound like it. It feels like you’ve seen a few panels of the comic at some point, and seen that people look different in this adaptation.

Dunk on the show’s changes if you want, but realise you’re dunking on the guy who created the whole thing, at least.

Like I said, I know absolutely nothing about the source material other than that it's a graphic novel. So I have no idea if the show is faithful or whatever, that's why I asked. I'll judge the show on its own merits alone.

I'm not dunking on anything, I'm just asking.
 

NahaNago

Member
Every single change in race and gender was made or approved by Neil Gaiman. He exec produced this show, and wrote it.

Have to ask... Are any of you actually Neil Gaiman or Sandman fans? Because it doesn’t really sound like it. It feels like you’ve seen a few panels of the comic at some point, and seen that people look different in this adaptation.

Dunk on the show’s changes if you want, but realise you’re dunking on the guy who created the whole thing, at least.
Like so what, it's 2022, I'd expect Neil Gaiman or any author/artist to race or gender swap characters for a tv show or movie. It doesn't mean you have to automatically like it just because the creator okayed the change. Plus like folks have said, it's netflix so this kind of stuff is to be expected.

I watched the first episode but it didn't completely grab me and the discussion here has turned me off to continue watching it.
 
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