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[Umbasaborne]

Im not clued in on game development at all, but it seems ridiculous that many studios are now only able to get out one title per console generation, why are games taking so much longer to make now? Crunch is obviously an industry wide problem, but can things like asset creation become automated to make the process faster? It took 343 six years to make a new halo game, and its still not finished, bungie was pumping a new content complete game out every two to three years. Rockstar used to release several big new games per generation, now we get one, if we are lucky. I mean they are still releasing gta v two consoles later!! I think this shit sucks tbh. It makes me wonder how the hell ubisoft have managed to pump out multiple big releases recently, same with activision and call of duty. But if you look
at the output from a company like ea, they have gone from releasing 8-10 games a year to 2-3 a year in the last decade alone.

 

[onnextflix5]

Games are more complex and wages are just to high now. AI software will huge in a few years time, its the only thing that's is gonna help.

 

[Umbasaborne]

Games are more complex and wages are just to high now. AI software will huge in a few years time, its the only thing that's is gonna help.

I get that games are complex, but one game per generation, or in some cases entire series missing a generation like bioshock, elder scrolls, or gta, cant be sustainable

 

[ksdixon]

Establish baseline gameplay engine for an IP.

• Main PS Studio Team concentrate on Single Player Game, then support with DLC story chapters/standalone short games, like Infamous First Light after release.
• Support Team concentrate on MP on their own time, release as standalone game purchase, like GOT Legends. Support as GAAS with content updates.

Neither development route has to automatically take time away from the other. Team 1 moves onto another game, Team 2 supports something else, and PC port houses takeover, releasing the single player and MP as 'seperate games'; or more likely PC will recieve the eventual GOTY/Director's Cut edition that'll probably be in the works for PS5 too etc. But you could blow that idea out and apply it to all game IPs. That could be one cross section doing it for Uncharted, and another cross section is over here applying that template to TLOU projects.

It'd save SSD space too. I'd love to have just TLOU Factions MP installed, rather than the whole entire TLOU1 game.

 

[The Cockatrice]

Ask Ubisoft.

 

[SLB1904]

Establish baseline gameplay engine for an IP.

• Main PS Studio Team concentrate on Single Player Game, then support with DLC story chapters/standalone short games, like Infamous First Light after release.
• Support Team concentrate on MP on their own time, release as standalone game purchase, like GOT Legends. Support as GAAS with content updates.

Neither development route has to automatically take time away from the other. Team 1 moves onto another game, Team 2 supports something else, and PC port houses takeover, releasing the single player and MP as 'seperate games'; or more likely PC will recieve the eventual GOTY/Director's Cut edition that'll probably be in the works for PS5 too etc.

It'd save SSD space too. I'd love to have just TLOU Factions MP installed, rather than the whole entire TLOU1 game.

You got all figure out. You should be head of a studio

 

[brian0057]

When you have "dynamic horse testicles" you know you can shave off things here and there to reduce costs and development time.
This is why I laugh at the people that get their knickers in a twist at the mere thought of reusing assets.

 

[Punished Miku]

Nintendo saw this problem in 2006 and went with the Wii. The solution has always been there. Decrease excess spending on graphics, and focus on selling the product through good game design.

There is an incredible lack of imagination in movies, and games in general right now. Reboots, franchises that never end, budgets keep ballooning to compensate. As the budgets expand, experimentation decreases to reduce risk. (Ex: Deus Ex ----> Marvel (sure bet) ------> sold to Embracer)

Don't get me wrong, I like a good looking next-gen game as much as the next guy; but it clearly has downsides and trade-offs associated with it.

The solution is there, but companies just don't want to do it.

 

[ksdixon]

You got all figure out. You should be head of a studio

haha, my sarcasm detector is broken, but thanks. plenty of ideas for how to better serve SP and MP communities.

 

[SLB1904]

haha, my sarcasm detector is broken, but thanks. plenty of ideas for how to better serve SP and MP communities.

The flaw on your analogy is not everything goes according to plan, some games get rebooted in middle development, some mechanics work some doesn't. I mean we have tons of documentaries about game development out there.

 

[Kev Kev]

i think devs are too concerned with shiny graphics and ultra performance, while simultaneously thinking they need to make the game some kind of AAA cinematic infused masterpiece. by the end the game feel bloated and pached together, and often times just plain broken (how many of these bloated games release with tons of bug and glitches?).

i think games development needs to go back to making less graphics heavy, less bloated games, that are so fun to play that youre not concerned about graphics and peak performance and you just want to replay it over and over, finding and doing side things you maybe skipped or missed the first time around.

all of that, and we havent even talked about the amount of DLC, expansions, skins, and other extras they will work on for years after the game releases. dont forget to add up all the time theyll have to spend fixing the bug and gliches with updates and patches, which should have been done before release. smh. its a mess.

edit: just to clarify... performance > graphics. so if they focus less on graphicsthey could focus more on performance. still tho, not everything needs to be 5,000 fps lol

 

[Roxkis_ii]

I think the scope of games have gotten so much bigger then before. Episodic games will likely help get more content out the door.

 

[Rykan]

I get that games are complex, but one game per generation, or in some cases entire series missing a generation like bioshock, elder scrolls, or gta, cant be sustainable

Yes it can be sustainable, because developers not releasing a franchise in an entire generation doesn't mean that its developers being unproductive. Bethesda released two very successful games (yes I know one of 'em sucked) and a remaster. Rockstar released RDR2 and the rerelease of GTA V on PS4/Xone is probably the single best selling game on both systems. GTA Online has been under continued development as well. The developer of Bioshock was disbanded after the last game because the director wanted to downscale.

 

[nominedomine]

Find your niche and stick to what you are good at and iterate over that. Don't try to chase trends. Whenever studios get too ambitious or try to make massive changes it tends to go poorly.

There are also so many soulless cookie cutter games where it feels like the devs felt like they had to do something but had no inspiration and then just started copying other games, adding anything they could think off without much thought behind it.

Also, please stop making everything open world, there has to be other ways to make AAA games.

 

[Yoboman]

I dunno somebody needs to find out Insomniacs witchcraft

 

[JackMcGunns]

i think devs are too concerned with shiny graphics and ultra performance, while simultaneously thinking they need to make the game some kind of AAA cinematic infused masterpiece. by the end the game feel bloated and pached together, and often times just plain broken (how many of these bloated games release with tons of bug and glitches?).

i think games development needs to go back to making less graphics heavy, less bloated games, that are so fun to play that youre not concerned about graphics and peak performance and you just want to replay it over and over, finding and doing side things you maybe skipped or missed the first time around.

all of that, and we havent even talked about the amount of DLC, expansions, skins, and other extras they will work on for years after the game releases. dont forget to add up all the time theyll have to spend fixing the bug and gliches with updates and patches, which should have been done before release. smh. its a mess.

edit: just to clarify... performance > graphics. so if they focus less on graphicsthey could focus more on performance. still tho, not everything needs to be 5,000 fps lol

Craig would like to have a word with you. No one looked at Halo Infinites open world and gameplay and said wow, so much potential, they said HA HA HA look at this brutes face underneath his helmet!

 

[Punished Miku]

Craig would like to have a word with you. No one looked at Halo Infinites open world and gameplay and said wow, so much potential, they said HA HA HA look at this brutes face underneath his helmet!

Art design still needs to be solid.

 

[Aion002]

A few things:

A fuck ton of people working on the game (brute forcing shit usually works...).

Competent people in charge. (Yeah... Right.. Like that's possible...)

Cutting corners by reusing assets and mechanics. (Assassin's Creed and CoD for example).

Releasing unfinished games and fixing it along the launch or even months later (almost every game does that these days).

And the main thing... The games are not innovative... Like at all. Just compare any CoD or Assassin's Creed...

 

[ksdixon]

The flaw on your analogy is not everything goes according to plan, some games get rebooted in middle development, some mechanics work some doesn't. I mean we have tons of documentaries about game development out there.

Fair point, but it doesn't diminish the half-steps Sony take.

You can't release Uncharted Remasters without the MP modes, then shutter the PS3 MP with the justification that not enough people play it. You've already cut into the potential userbase, by only serving the people who're only interested in the Single Player. Yeah, PS3 is old hardware only slowed-down by time, but people can't play UC MP if no longer able-to. Just bring them forward to a modern PC/PS platform, and let them breath on their own right, not shackled to a single player game release, or console hardware. I hope after all that paragraph what I wrote is correct, I don't play UC MP myself so it's 2nd hand knowledge/memory.

MP games should be treated as GAAS with content drops, even if they give previous games' mp maps and game modes, make the old game literally obsolete, and standardize the player base on this new MP standalone game which is independant of mainline game releases, dlc scheduals for that etc; and just keep it evergreen with content updates etc. Allow it to keep a series in people's thoughts, but allow the single player games to maybe take a break if they've been rotated-in too much already. Allow the main story team to turn around and insert a new IP into the rotation etc.

 

[Reizo Ryuu]

You'd be surprised how many incompetent people are in charge/managing these projects, there's a lot of nepotism in the games industry, just like the rest of the entertainment industry.

Also wages aren't really high either, it's only the people at the top that make good money, and even then only people with a real passion for games stick around since the working conditions, benefits and pay are just better elsewhere.

 

[Kokoloko85]

Now days Im not sure. Insomniac seem to have a pretty good system with releasing games.

PS3/360 era we got alot of AAA games fast:
Halo 3, Reach, ODT etc
Gears 1-3
Uncharted 1-3+ TLOU
Resistance 1-3
Infamous, 1,2 2nd Son

 

[GermanZepp]

Make arcade games and arena FPS great again

 

[Elysion]

I‘ve asked myself that as well. I‘ve long wondered if a development process like this would be beneficial:

-Develop a game from start to finish with very simplified graphics (PS2 level at most). All gameplay elements are
in place, including physics and animations, but the assets, lighting etc. are very primitive. The first year or two of
development should be dedicated entirely to implementing the gameplay systems. And I don‘t mean a ‚vertical
slice‘, I mean the whole game should be finished, just with very simple graphics.

-Once the raw gameplay is done, put it into a proper graphics engine with proper current-gen assets, whether
UE5 or an internally developed engine. The second half of development would be dedicated mostly to making
the game look good. While this is being done, a team of play-testers is continuously playing the earlier ‚raw’
version of the game, to improve minor gameplay elements and things like pacing etc. These improvements will
be implemented into the ‚pretty‘ version of the game during the second half of development.

-Meanwhile, during the second half of development, the first team which developed the ‚raw‘ version of the
game, is already working on the raw version of the next game, which the technical team will then put into the
proper engine too once their work on the previous game is finished.

I have no idea if a process like this is practical or even possible, since I don‘t know a lot about game development. But to me it seems reasonable that it would be easier to make a game with PS2 level graphics, where developers can focus entirely on gameplay, which can then be turned into a proper current-gen game, while the raw version of the next game is already in development. But as I said, I barely know anything about game development, so it‘s possible that there‘s something I‘m missing.

 

[Magic Carpet]

Movies usually spent most of the time in preproduction planning everything out beforehand. Then spent just a few months on actual filming.
Do any games work this way?

 

[Punished Miku]

I‘ve asked myself that as well. I‘ve long wondered if a development process like this would be beneficial:

-Develop a game from start to finish with very simplified graphics (PS2 level at most). All gameplay elements are
in place, including physics and animations, but the assets, lighting etc. are very primitive. The first year or two of
development should be dedicated entirely to implementing the gameplay systems. And I don‘t mean a ‚vertical
slice‘, I mean the whole game should be finished, just with very simple graphics.

-Once the raw gameplay is done, put it into a proper graphics engine with proper current-gen assets, whether
UE5 or an internally developed engine. The second half of development would be dedicated mostly to making
the game look good. While this is being done, a team of play-testers is continuously playing the earlier ‚raw’
version of the game, to improve minor gameplay elements and things like pacing etc. These improvements will
be implemented into the ‚pretty‘ version of the game during the second half of development.

-Meanwhile, during the second half of development, the first team which developed the ‚raw‘ version of the
game, is already working on the raw version of the next game, which the technical team will then put into the
proper engine too once their work on the previous game is finished.

I have no idea if a process like this is practical or even possible, since I don‘t know a lot about game development. But to me it seems reasonable that it would be easier to make a game with PS2 level graphics, where developers can focus entirely on gameplay, which can then be turned into a proper current-gen game, while the raw version of the next game is already in development. But as I said, I barely know anything about game development, so it‘s possible that there‘s something I‘m missing.

Nintendo does a mini-version of this sometimes. They don't make the entire game in primitive form, but they seem to lock down most of the gameplay very early - without even deciding what IP they're using first.



It always blows my mind when you see stuff like Final Fantasy XV where they're trying to get the core gameplay loop to work at the very end.

 

[schaft0620]

What a great question and I bet if you find the answer is yes that it was more than 3 years ago or a sequel built on top of a prior game.

I know there are reports of negativity at Insomniac but Spider-Man was made in 3-4 years. Spider-Man MM was made in under 3 years.

 

[AJUMP23]

Is this an Unreal Engine 5 commercial?

 

[Reizo Ryuu]

I have no idea if a process like this is practical or even possible

It's not only practical, a lot of development is done this way already, otherwise you wind up with entire teams sitting around doing nothing.

 

[Beer Baelly]

Nintendo saw this problem in 2006 and went with the Wii. The solution has always been there. Decrease excess spending on graphics, and focus on selling the product through good game design.

There is an incredible lack of imagination in movies, and games in general right now. Reboots, franchises that never end, budgets keep ballooning to compensate. As the budgets expand, experimentation decreases to reduce risk. (Ex: Deus Ex ----> Marvel (sure bet) ------> sold to Embracer)

Don't get me wrong, I like a good looking next-gen game as much as the next guy; but it clearly has downsides and trade-offs associated with it.

The solution is there, but companies just don't want to do it.

Why do we have to wait 5 years for BotW2 then

 

[Punished Miku]

Why do we have to wait 5 years for BotW2 then

They probably take their time when they see that it's still selling. And Zelda is always one of the only series they take a very long time developing like other companies' AAA games.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Death Stranding.

 

[Elysion]

It's not only practical, a lot of development is done this way already, otherwise you wind up with entire teams sitting around doing nothing.

Really? I was under the impression that developers usually do a ‚vertical slice‘ of a game, using an early version of their engine, and then build the rest of the game by implementing gameplay and graphics at the same time. When studios show behind the scenes stuff from during development, and they show snippets from earlier, unfinished versions of the game, what‘s shown usually already has high-def assets, just with less effects. I don‘t think Rockstar for example has an early, fully playable version of RDR2 with PS2 level graphics somewhere in their vault.

What I‘m talking about is essentially a separation of the development process between gameplay on one hand, and graphics and art on the other. Let one team make an entire game, from start to finish, with primitive graphics and assets, without much of an art direction, and another team then uses this raw game and gives it proper current gen graphics by creating proper assets, implementing lighting and effects, as well as proper art direction. There would still be an overall game director who is in charge of both halves of development, but for the most part the people who create the raw gameplay version of the game don‘t really have to care about any technical aspects.

 

[rob305]

UE5 is supposed to help with that since a lot of components in games that would require a lot of work and resources in the past can now be streamlined and work "out of the box"

 

[Umbasaborne]

Nintendo does a mini-version of this sometimes. They don't make the entire game in primitive form, but they seem to lock down most of the gameplay very early - without even deciding what IP they're using first.



It always blows my mind when you see stuff like Final Fantasy XV where they're trying to get the core gameplay loop to work at the very end.

Yeah nintendo is kind of the prime example of this, i mean they can take a while to get games out too, just look at zelda, but for the most part their pipe line is very efficient

 

[Umbasaborne]

What a great question and I bet if you find the answer is yes that it was more than 3 years ago or a sequel built on top of a prior game.

I know there are reports of negativity at Insomniac but Spider-Man was made in 3-4 years. Spider-Man MM was made in under 3 years.

Insomniac really are the gold standard, and i think thats because they scope their projects appropriately

 

[Ladioss]

AAA game dev is only a matter of scale. Crunch is almost always caused by fuzzy game design, mismanagement and/or executives meddling : feature creep, project reboot, hype-driven refactoring, etc

 

[Reizo Ryuu]

Really? I was under the impression that developers usually do a ‚vertical slice‘ of a game

Not really, a vertical slice can be a waste of time/resources; it's generally only done by big studios if they need to pitch something for budget or want to present their new product but don't really have anything in a presentable state yet.

using an early version of their engine

The version of the engine is always the latest available at the time.

and then build the rest of the game by implementing gameplay and graphics at the same time

It's not really possible to do anything in game development "at the same time", because everything takes a different amount of time. The game designers do all of their work with prototyping, this could be done in completely different software, or even with paper. All of this is documented for the programmers to implement in the engine. They then work with the programmers to get the core loop working as good as possible before implementing other, tertiary gameplay elements; depending on the scope of the game, those elements might be handled by other designers.
The encounter/level designers will block out progression, and the artists will make some basic assets/animations, all of this together allows the game designers to keep testing/tweaking/iterating on the gameplay elements.

A good example for this is bayonetta, where they got the core of the game down in a month:


Meanwhile on the other side you'll have the art/sound/narrative teams doing their work, and then each designated milestone essentially bringing most of the work together so part of the game can be played in a more "complete" state, but generally the progression and programming is far ahead of the content creation.

 

[FutureMD]

I get that games are complex, but one game per generation, or in some cases entire series missing a generation like bioshock, elder scrolls, or gta, cant be sustainable

Elder scrolls and GTA are 100% because people keep rebuying the same old sh*t so they have no reason to release new versions.

 

[MilkyJoe]

For starters do we need games that are 50 hours long?

 

[Majima Everywhere System]

I think the people left in games development aren't going to kill themselves anymore. They are more willing to embrace delays, which really impact corporate overlords more than fans.

They are aware you can't make a game with just a group of passionate people in a few years, even with tools, due to what games are now. It has to be a technology product that has no soul, or you need to apply to a team that is at peak power level.

I think they gave in to all this, and decided it was OK. They would accept making 1 game that is an evolving platform, and just check out at 5. Their bosses wanted it anyway, and this was the handshake.

If you want a story, it'll be in indie, or books, or tv.

 

[Haggard]

For starters do we need games that are 50 hours long?

to give people a lot of chances to buy cosmetic extras

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

Adopt the Insomniac model

20-25 hours for a SP game
Focused
Not overly bloated

Horizon was a great game covered up in a lot of bloat that wasted dev time

 

[Calling 911 Melts Beams]

if a aaa game can be made in 5 years working 40 hour weeks they could get the game done in 2.5 years working 80 hour weeks or just over a year working 160 hour weeks

developers are just lazy

 

[kyliethicc]

No. Naughty Dog crunch for a reason. Make great games quickly.

 

[LazyParrot]

I get that games are complex, but one game per generation, or in some cases entire series missing a generation like bioshock, elder scrolls, or gta, cant be sustainable

Those are some pretty awful examples. Irrational games folded after Bioshock Infinite and both Elder Scrolls and GTA are excellent examples of how this sort of release schedule can be sustainable. You don't need to make a new game if people are still lining up to buy the latest re-release of the last one a decade after the original release. And that's ignoring that both Bethesda and Rockstar have other successful games that would have allowed them to get through last gen without going broke even if they hadn't decided to re-release GTA V and Skyrim over and over again.

 

[6502]

Stop making them so big?

20 hour campaigns are fine. Instead of being cheap on costumes etc monitise the extra content as add on packs. Do not bloat the main game. Keep prices low.

Only the very best games of certain genres should be demanding 40 hours of your time. Do we really want 20 mins of travel between locations?

 

[nkarafo]

AAA game are too expensive because they are trying so much to make them like movies. So in the end, they pay for producing a game and a CGI movie.

Don't hire too many (or too popular) voice actors and writers. Reduce the cinematics/cutscenes/fmvs and spoken dialogue.

 

[MiguelItUp]

AAA game dev is only a matter of scale. Crunch is almost always caused by fuzzy game design, mismanagement and/or executives meddling : feature creep, project reboot, hype-driven refactoring, etc

Yup, number of employees involved, total cost of development, etc.

Crunch is something that's deep rooted in game / software design workflows, and I think it's something that some just continue to use because it "works for them." I think the only way those things will change are if devs that crunch are willing to change up their work flow to counter crunch. Some are able to "lessen" the crunch load, but, not many are able to completely rid the studio of it. Be it cause they are choosing not to cause they don't want to change workflows, or cause they've worked fine with it.

The last two studios I worked for were like, "Here comes crunch", or would make comments about how some folks should prepare for it, etc. Not like they were excited about it, but because it was inevitable and part of the process.

 

[RoboFu]

This is simple to answer as its the same issue in almost any big software development.

- HIRE SKILLED EMPLOYEES WHO KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING.
This is the key issue. Your managers need to know how to properly estimate project budgets and timelines. Everyone needs to know their part and know exactly how much input they can exercise. For example .. were you hired to create and design a character or just to design a character based off someone elses predetermined concept? If you work with outside companies make sure you have someone on staff that really knows whats involved with the 3rd party tasks. DO NOT BE VAGUE WITH THIRD PARTY ASKS. Have a comprehensive list of the tasks you want performed.

- Get rid of all outside consultant firms only hire internal consunltants for projects.
consultant firms are shadey, they don't get paid by your success they get paid by the hour. Their main adjective is to draw out whatever process they are involved in.

- Be practical. This goes back to the first statement.
You can have idea group moments but you need to be practical about what you promise and can deliver.

 

[onnextflix5]

Why do we have to wait 5 years for BotW2 then

Its a very big game, and the team is relatively small.