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After 60 Hades Runs, I can safely say Returnal is a bad Roguelike.

I haven't played Hades but I'm not so sure every upgrade being good should be a positive compare to Returnal. One of the best parts about Returnal is that most things that you can pick up have a risk reward element to it, and you have to make those decisions on the fly as you play, and those decisions are unique to each run. A parasite that might have a perfect positive and zero implication negative In one run might be the total opposite in another playthrough.

Honestly, true risk/reward decisions are one of the biggest things missing from gaming these days, because it feels like every single game is just buff buff buff and never forces you to strategically think and consider tradeoffs.
 

Spukc

always chasing the next thrill
Thanks another sane person on neogaf

Hades really writes the fucking BOOK on how to design a good roguelike.
ITEMS ITEMS ITEMS.

returnal was a flawed but still ok roguelike and NOT in a million years worth 80 euro's
 
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marjo

Member
Although a very different kind of game, Slay The Spire is my favorite rogue like .

Runs can feel very different, even when using the same character, depending on the card and artifact options you're provided, forcing you to think both strategically and tactically at every decision point.
 

Plantoid

Member
You should've compared it to something else, returnal is ps exclusive and therefore cannot be inferior to a multiplat

On topic: didn't play returnal, but hades is excellent, put 40-50hours in it
 

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
I'm sorry, what now?

Because Returnal wasn't developed in 8 months.

Because they're two games by two different devs who aren't even in the same country.

Quite how did you realistically envisage the Returnal devs to take anything from the Hades devs during development?

What a bizzare comment!
I've played enough Destiny to see that small changes to systems, in game currency and RNG can be made within months. It's fairly common in GaaS games to repurpose currency to offer better progression.

Here is what they could've learned from Hades:

Extra lives - In Hades, you can upgrade your extra lives with currency you earned in the last run. Up to 3 extra lives. In returnal, rng dictates if you get even one extra life because the currency is tied to each run. Simply offering a shop at the start of the run is not a big thing that would take years.

Removing health from the loot pool - this is another bizarre decision that limited your upgrade options because there is no way you would never buy Any upgrades over the heath upgrades. By making health a permenant upgrade like Hades, you open up new build possibilities.

Removing malfunctions from the game until the end game- Hades has negative modifiers too but they are much better implemented since you pick them at the start and thus they don't end up diluting the loot pool in the game. 50% of the chests in returnal are malfunctions which makes no sense.


These are all things that can be easily implemented. This has been done in other games DLCs with just 3 months of dev time.
 

Men_in_Boxes

Snake Oil Salesman
I'm on my 18th Hades run.

It's starting to bore me.

The art, dialogue, and voice acting are top notch but it all starts to feel the same rather quickly.

Kinda hope SuperGiant Games makes a more traditional RPG next.
 
Hades is top of its class for sure, same tier as Issac, Gungeon, and RoR.
Returnal is excellent, but the run lengths keep it from goat status.
 

Kokoloko85

Member
You do carry on your currency in Returnal.
And maybe not much but there is a 2nd ending and extra house segments. You keep your key items, just not your guns and perks.
And more lore that gets unlocked
 

MrLove

Banned
Hades after 30min uninstalled, boring gameplay and not worth it even for 1$ in gamepass for me. Returnal can only be better
 
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Con-Z-epT

Live from NeoGAF, it's Friday Night!
You do carry on your currency in Returnal.
And maybe not much but there is a 2nd ending and extra house segments. You keep your key items, just not your guns and perks.
And more lore that gets unlocked
The monolith in the beginning which is used to unlock artifacts and consumables also counts as permanent progression. Sure not that much compared to Hades but it was completely ignored by the OP.
 

Fake

Member
The story is FAR better in returnal. It's actually mature, and extremely well told.

I know this is a bait, but can someone explain to me whadafuck this even mean? Are we have some 'mature storytelling' standart that should be follow?

Is putting IRL bs into a game called mature?
 

bender

What time is it?
I love GregK and I love almost everything about SuperGiant games except for playing them. Hades is no exception. I got bored with the game after about 10 runs.

I'd actually say something similar to Housemarque if it weren't for Nex Machina, which is great. I do agree that Returnal is a bad Roguelike. Runs take far too long and the bright idea to reset a run in the middle of a game for story reasons was ridiculous. I did manage to finish the game though, unlike Hades.

I think I've come to the conclusion that Roguelite is just a boring game design. You are essentially taking a game that should last an hour or three and the artificially increasing the length by incorporating an economy and permanent upgrade system that let you progress through an unfair difficulty curve.
 
Ehh... not necessarily. Maybe it's because I'm new to Rogue-likes, but I like both of them. I think they offer two very different experiences even though they're supposed to be in the same genre, or whatever. Like someone said, I don't think Hades being fantastic diminishes my feelings toward Returnal. I think they're such different games that they kinda just stand on their own.

I believe I am 20 or so runs in. I get murdered, HARD, in the 4th area. I'm still trying to figure out how to navigate it. The weird thing is I'm not frustrated by it, it's weird. It was the same with Returnal.
 
Roguelikes are a shell of a game. They really only gained popularity as indies because they were priced as indies. You get a handful of stages and that's it. Compared to a full campaign in a traditional action game you get about 1/2 to 1/3rd the content. Traditionally these have sold for 1/2 to 1/3rd the price of a normal action game.

They make some sense for indies since they are clearly smaller, less capable studios and are trying to pad out a short game. It's slightly forgivable for that reason.

However, it still results in a less enjoyable experience than a traditional action game. Instead of carefully balancing the difficulty to perfection like in a top tier action game, they purposefully destroy the balance of the game. You have to replay the same small amount of content over and over and either memorize things and improve, or get aided by progression systems in roguelites until you hit the actual difficulty level they balanced for after 20-40 hours. That whole time you're just replaying a tiny handful of stages though. Half the time the balance is still busted through randomization of stages and power-ups.

Selling any roguelike for full price AAA is unforgiveable. It's a shell of a game, and a worse experience, but priced at the maximum.
 
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Con-Z-epT

Live from NeoGAF, it's Friday Night!
I know this is a bait, but can someone explain to me whadafuck this even mean? Are we have some 'mature storytelling' standart that should be follow?

Is putting IRL bs into a game called mature?
I think what he meant to say is that in comparison to Hades which actually tries to be funny and lighthearted Returnal tried to be more serious and darker in tone.

Not to judge here on my own i just tried to interpret.
 

Fake

Member
I think what he meant to say is that in comparison to Hades which actually tries to be funny and lighthearted Returnal tried to be more serious and darker in tone.

Not to judge here on my own i just tried to interpret.

I don't think this is what he means. He could say 'Returnal feels more mature to me', instead he said 'it's actually mature', implying that Hades isn't.

I should left that bait into limbo anw.
 

Vol5

Member
Returnal isn't as good as Hades imo, but does that make it a bad Roguelike? Hardly. I really enjoyed it, especially the bullet-hell bosses.
 

MDSLKTR

Member
One is a great rogue game, the other is a great adventure game. Hades is too button mashy for my tastes and the levels tileset cheapen the experience.
Returnal endgame (basically getting the platinum) is trash but everything else was ace. I'll go with Returnal because the atmosphere is unlike anything else I've played.
 

reksveks

Member
You are pretty much forced to make every run harder after you beat the game. Before you can start a run, a menu pops up asking you to put negative modifiers on. Every single time you beat the game with that weapon, it increases the number of modifiers by 1. Keeps the game challenging and different. For example, one modifier makes the bosses gain new powers. One boss gets a chariot while another gets two sisters to come and help her.
Yeah, I enjoy that part of the loop. Restarted the game on xbox, I forgot how many runs I did on the Switch.
 

junguler

Banned
i can't compare these two games fairly as they are very different in what they are and what they set out to do, the rougelike label is just to let you know what you are in for if you want to buy them and has lost any meaning beyond that imo, it's just too broad of a term and needs to be broken down to smaller sections to give us more freedom in describing different games within it.
 

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
Returnal endgame (basically getting the platinum) is trash but everything else was ace. I'll go with Returnal because the atmosphere is unlike anything else I've played.
Yeah, I love the core combat in Returnal. It isnt button mashy. It's challenging, and I really wanted to keep playing it, but lack of depth and progression just killed any desire I had to sit through 2 hour runs. The reason for posting this thread isnt clear from my OP, but I want these features implemented so I can go back and play it over and over again.
 
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M.W.

Member
Returnal is a piece of shit game.

fight-me-bring-it-on.gif
 

Heimdall_Xtreme

Jim Ryan Fanclub's #1 Member
To start off, I loved Returnal. It had some fantastic combat mechanics, incredible atmosphere and is easily my runner up for GOTY as of now.

However, playing Hades over the last few weeks has made me realize just how flawed Returnal is when it comes to rougelikes, and it's infuriating that Hades came out almost 8 months before Returnal because Returnal took nothing from it.

Hades has a better end game. Better build variety. Better weapon variety. More depth. Better storytelling. More unlocks. Way better sense of progression. And best of all, the game saves whenever you enter a new room or die so you dont have to leave the game in rest mode and you cant save scum.

- Better Storytelling
Beating Hades does not mean you have seen the ending. The game continues to offer new story bits and dialogue every single time you beat the game. I am 60 runs in and still finding new dialogue. The story is also very well written by Greg Kasavin who should be well known to any of the Gamespot oldies here. I cannot tell wtf Returnal was about. I cant even tell you who the main character is and wtf those flashbacks were. I dont mind vague David Lynch stories, but there is a time and a place, and this is not it. If you fuck up a run, it's a waste because the story does not move an inch.

- Incredible Depth
I am 60 runs in and I havent unlocked everything yet. I am missing weapons. Weapon Upgrades. Companions who help out in battles. There is a whole secondary upgrade system I havent even touched yet. There are 10 different gods who offer different upgrade paths ingame so every run feels entirely different even if you take the same weapon over and over again. And they dont limit you to five upgrades per run like Returnal does. I can carry almost 30 boons at once. There is no penalty for taking every upgrade. In fact, they encourage it by offering you damage buffs for taking upgrades from multiple gods.

- Better Progression
This was my biggest gripe with Returnal at launch and something they didnt even bother fixing. There is just one progression system in Returnal. Your weapon perks. Nothing else. Hades lets you carry over 5 different currencies that let you upgrade 40 different skills, and 4 weapon perks per weapon. No run feels like a waste of two hours because you are always getting stronger. More attack power, more health, better RNG percentage, more spells, more everything.

It's frustrating that not only did they not learn from this amazing game, they also havent updated the game at all since release. Zero post launch support.
This friend knows what he's talking about.

Now guys you understand why Returnal is just a ordinary game? The difference is that Jim Ryan wants us to believe that it is a stellar game when it is not.
 
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reksveks

Member
Yeah, I love the core combat in Returnal. It isnt button mashy. It's challenging, and I really wanted to keep playing it, but lack of depth and progression just killed any desire I had to sit through 2 hour runs. The reason for posting this thread isnt clear from my OP, but I want these features implemented so I can go back and play it over and over again.
You are sounding a bit like a certain Jeff Grubb
 
I love Dead Cells, if Hades is anything like that I would love it also.
Both are great. But, I definitely liked Dead Cells more. Mostly for the same reason I prefer Returnal - the moment to moment gameplay is top notch and consistently fun.

Hades claim to fame is more about having a typical style RPG story and dialog that progresses, even though you're playing a rougelike.
 

JLB

Banned
Didnt know Kasavian was behind the game. It explain ma the fantastic writing and character development of the game.
 

Poppyseed

Member
Returnal was a better game than Hades IMO. You just like to constantly crap on PS stuff. It's so blatant and extremely tiresome.

The story is FAR better in returnal. It's actually mature, and extremely well told. Similar to Silent Hill 2 in execution. You're wrong here. Hades is a comic book.

Who cares about weapon upgrade comparison? Returnal is more about getting good. It took me 40 some odd hours to complete my first entire run through of Returnal. Then I beat the entire game in one sitting from beginning to end without dying once. This was because of how much better I got at the game, which was much more satisfying to me than learning to use all the weapons in Hades.

Again on the progression. The progression should be within you. If you feel like you "wasted" your time because you died ... you're missing the point. BTW, I never had a run two hours long in Returnal that didn't result in some kind of gain (each Biome only takes about an hour to beat at MOST, and that's if you are slow), so you are either really bad at the game or not being entirely honest here to try and make a point.

Why should Returnal "learn" from Hades? It's entirely it's own thing. I'm glad it was different in the way it was. Why would I want Hades in a Sci Fi wrapper? I'll take the fresh, extremely well executed and fantastic experience that was Returnal every day of the week. I thought Hades was fantastic too, but I preferred Returnal.

And I'm certainly not gonna go out and take a dump on one at the expense of another.
I love Hades and I love Returnal. I’m glad Returnal isn’t like Hades for the same reasons. Returnal is fantastic, - an absolute GotY contender for me.
 
To start off, I loved Returnal. It had some fantastic combat mechanics, incredible atmosphere and is easily my runner up for GOTY as of now.

However, playing Hades over the last few weeks has made me realize just how flawed Returnal is when it comes to rougelikes, and it's infuriating that Hades came out almost 8 months before Returnal because Returnal took nothing from it.

Hades has a better end game. Better build variety. Better weapon variety. More depth. Better storytelling. More unlocks. Way better sense of progression. And best of all, the game saves whenever you enter a new room or die so you dont have to leave the game in rest mode and you cant save scum.

- Better Storytelling
Beating Hades does not mean you have seen the ending. The game continues to offer new story bits and dialogue every single time you beat the game. I am 60 runs in and still finding new dialogue. The story is also very well written by Greg Kasavin who should be well known to any of the Gamespot oldies here. I cannot tell wtf Returnal was about. I cant even tell you who the main character is and wtf those flashbacks were. I dont mind vague David Lynch stories, but there is a time and a place, and this is not it. If you fuck up a run, it's a waste because the story does not move an inch.

- Incredible Depth
I am 60 runs in and I havent unlocked everything yet. I am missing weapons. Weapon Upgrades. Companions who help out in battles. There is a whole secondary upgrade system I havent even touched yet. There are 10 different gods who offer different upgrade paths ingame so every run feels entirely different even if you take the same weapon over and over again. And they dont limit you to five upgrades per run like Returnal does. I can carry almost 30 boons at once. There is no penalty for taking every upgrade. In fact, they encourage it by offering you damage buffs for taking upgrades from multiple gods.

- Better Progression
This was my biggest gripe with Returnal at launch and something they didnt even bother fixing. There is just one progression system in Returnal. Your weapon perks. Nothing else. Hades lets you carry over 5 different currencies that let you upgrade 40 different skills, and 4 weapon perks per weapon. No run feels like a waste of two hours because you are always getting stronger. More attack power, more health, better RNG percentage, more spells, more everything.

It's frustrating that not only did they not learn from this amazing game, they also havent updated the game at all since release. Zero post launch support.
One game being better don't make another one in the same genre "bad". You contradict yourself saying Returnal is so far your GOTY and calling it bad in what it essentially is. That makes no sense. Also, that's like your opinion, man. They are also very different from each other. It happens you liked what Hades does in general better than its rogue-like equivalent in Returnal, it seems.

Returnal wasn't made in 1 year, what do you mean Housemarque didn't take notes from Hades? It's not like they can alter their gameplay systems on a whim like flipping a switch and without overhauling critical parts of the gameplay and balance. Once again, the games share a genre, but that's about it, one is a 3rd person shooter the other one is not and that's only where the differences begin, it's not like you're comparing Tekken to Guilty Gear, more like comparing Ratchet and Clank to Metroid.
 
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SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
One game being better don't make another one in the same genre "bad". You contradict yourself saying Returnal is so far your GOTY and calling it bad in what it essentially is. That makes no sense. Also, that's like your opinion, man. They are also very different from each other. It happens you liked what Hades does in general better than its rogue-like equivalent in Returnal, it seems.

Returnal wasn't made in 1 year, what do you mean Housemarque didn't take notes from Hades? It's not like they can alter their gameplay systems on a whim like flipping a switch and without overhauling critical parts of the gameplay and balance. Once again, the games share a genre, but that's about it, one is a 3rd person shooter the other one is not and that's only where the differences begin, it's not like you're comparing Tekken to Guilty Gear, more like comparing Ratchet and Clank to Metroid.
I didnt call the game bad. I said it's a bad rougelike.
 

jaysius

Banned
Hades is one of the most overrated games in the past I don’t know how many years. The boss design is so lazy they have to resort to throwing trash mobs at you to pad out the weak mechanics.

The game becomes more of a bullet hell in the 2nd stage.

Not having shortcuts is a shitty oversight.
 
Yeah, I love the core combat in Returnal. It isnt button mashy. It's challenging, and I really wanted to keep playing it, but lack of depth and progression just killed any desire I had to sit through 2 hour runs. The reason for posting this thread isnt clear from my OP, but I want these features implemented so I can go back and play it over and over again.

The way you spoke so authoritatively in your first message I would have sworn you actually beat Returnal. I’m sorry but I have found the exact inverse of what you’re saying to be true.

The production value and controls of Returnal are so far ahead of Hades that I almost think they aren’t comparable. I beat Returnal and played Hades out of curiosity. It was such a low budget indie experience I couldn’t enjoy it and uninstalled after a few hours.

I’ll get back to it eventually. However, it sounds like you’re more disappointed that you weren’t able to defeat Returnal than anything else. It’s simply not for the masses due to it’s difficulty and imo a lot of gamers that regard it so highly are treating it as somewhat of a rite of passage.
 

ethomaz

Banned
I didnt call the game bad. I said it's a bad rougelike.
I don't think that is true at all.

Returnal feels like a very good Roguelike game.
It just not like Hades.

There are different types of Roguelike games... you are just focusing in say Hades is a better Roguelike when it is not... it is just different.
Most if not all key features of Roguelike games are implemented very well in both Hades and Returnal.
 
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