JeloSWE
Member
I'm aware of how SFS works, how would that make it an issue, it would rather make it even more performant.
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Forza Horizon 5 Next Gen performance targets revealed. RT only utilized in Forzavista
- Thread starter Snowdonhoffen
- Start date
I have a funny feeling both these games are gonna focus on different things for visuals.....and its gonna lead to some wild threads....
That is ok turn 10 will have fm8 ready to go sometime next year to compare to gt7 apples to apples. Should be fun to see how each approach the challenges. Both are damn good at their jobs should be a heavy weight showdown.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
nah. It will look the same. GT7 is native 4k 60 fps with ray traced reflections. It's a cross gen game that is designed to run at 1080p 60 fps on base consoles with no RT. Thats why it is able to run at 4x the resolution on the PS5 with GPU overhead for RT reflections.
Looks like they were able to add 3D trees for the PS5 version which is the biggest upgrade you are gonna get. Forza is native 4k 30 fps with no RT and their rendering budget is literally half that of GT7 which lets them push more photorealistic open world.
Neither game is pushing destruction which is saving a lot of the GPU resources which would typically calculate those physics. I suspect the fully next gen versions of these franchises will not be targeting native 4k anything.
The real upgrades will come with GT8, Forza 8 and Horizon 6 if they ever make one. And if they decide to target native 4k 60 fps for those as well then you wont see any real upgrades.
Reindeer
Member
I'm not sure destruction will ever be a priority for a game like Forza Horizon. It would be cool to see crazy destruction physics though. Imagine Wreckfest with next gen graphics and physics, should absolutely bonkers.
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I love for Microsoft to bring in a studio who could use the next gen forza tech engine in a car combat game or something like the old burn out games. God damn that would be hot as hell.
01011001
Banned
if developers use the feature without drastically increasing texture resolution.
also my point wasn't that it would be an issue, what I mean is that in that case RAM would be one of the limiting factors that would result in lower res textures being used in reflections.
so as soon as SFS will be used, RAM will become more of a factor when developers choose which asset versions will be visible in reflections
No, it's a cubemap. Notice there is no reflection of the roof fin, no reflection of the car or brake light in the spare tyre at the back. You won't get reflections of cars behind you either.Hmmm thats kinda odd that they say that because i could have sworn i spotted RT during the demo?
Is this not RT?
Bo_Hazem
Banned
It means 50% in both Y and X axis. 1080p is 25% of 4K:
Simply put, it's 8.29MP vs 2.1MP.
Stop talking about things being open world. Nothing about a game being open world limits RT reflections. If anything 60-120fps racers will have a harder time doing it than 30fps ones.
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JeloSWE
Member
I don't think RAM is such a big issue. Say you place a mirror on a road, the texture you have loaded in GPU RAM to render the road around the mirror could easily be used when rendering the the roads reflection in the mirror, however, to speed up the the reflection rendering part so you can finish the frame inside your 30/60fps budget, they use lower quality shaders, lower polygon meshes and lower res textures. 16GB RAM is quite a lot, you can fit an abundance of textures, and they are also stored in a natively supported compressed format directly on the GPU, eg BC7 etc to reduce foot print. But I still agree that SFS can take thing even further but the main cause for low quality in reflections is the time it takes to reder the reflections.
Neo_game
Member
IMO it is pointless to compare the game which are WIP. GT7 was probably pre alpha and will not release this year. FH5 seems more polished ATM but since 4K 30fps is confirmed for SX they were probably showing the PC gameplay with max settings at 4K 60fps. Moreover I think comparison between two does not make sense. GT7 and FM is the one to be compared as we can have gamepaly for same cars running on same tracks.
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JeloSWE
Member
If we talk AREA, then yes, 1080 takes up a quarter of the area of 4K but when talking about RESOLUTION, halving or doubling, you do it on the horizontal and vertical axis. 3840 * 50% x 2160 * 50% = 1920 x 1080It means 50% in both Y and X axis. 1080p is 25% of 4K:
Simply put, it's 8.29MP vs 2.1MP.
So if you have an image that is 100 x 100 px. If I ask you to make it half height, you'd make it it 100 x 50 px. If I then ask you to half it's width as well you'd make it 50 x 50 px. Thus this is half resolution, not quarter. When you talk resolutions you can always reduce or increase them in each axis independently, you don't count the area in pixels.
The take away is that one need to be clear if they are talking about AREA and amount of pixels OR resolution.
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01011001
Banned
it depends on who you ask here, even games are not consistent when it comes to that.
some games even mix it up depending on if you scale the resolution down or use super sampling options.
in Ryse on PC for example, the percentage slider for resolution is the actual percentage of both axis combined. so 25% of 4K would result in a 1080p internal res.
but the super sampling option use 2x to describe both axis separately. so 2x super sampling of 1080p is 4K
most games use the percentage slider to mean how many pixels are being rendered, so in Fortnite, Ryse and most games I know, 25% of 4K is 1080p
and I honestly think it makes a whole lot more sense... calling 1080p half of 4K makes zero sense
and when you go to 1440p, which is literally called WQHD (Wide Quad High Definition) or QHD (Quad HD), it's even literally in the name, as it is 4x of 720p (HD)
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Elbow Identity Shallow
Member
If we're talking about resolution then you have to use both axis.
DaleinCalgary
Member
Screw Rt, just give me 60 fps
CrustyBritches
Gold Member
This is a strange discussion. 1080p is factually 1/4 of 2160p. Checkerboard rendering uses half-horizontal resolution, so "4K Checkerboard" would be 1920x2160, or half the res of 3840x2160.
JeloSWE
Member
Interesting, I think it makes sense as in understanding the cost of rendering as having 25% pixels to render is literarily a quadrupling of rendering power (more or less) for the user.
When talking about resolutions as in image dimension and rendering resolutions, then you need to talk about width and height in percentages, not amount of pixels.
Also 4K and the incorrectly used 2K are just marketing terms to be used along side HD, Full HD and Ultra HD etc.
Ture 4K = 4096
Ture 2K = 2048
Video 4K = 3840
Video 2K = 1440p ????? <- this is sooooo fucked up.
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buenoblue
Member
For me raytracing is not worth the performance hit and I don't think these consoles have the power to do it justice anyway. Ratchet ps5 looks so much better to me in performance mode without raytracing. The resolution and effects hit is so noticable whereas the reflections still look great without rt.
The obsession with life like reflections and shadows doesn't really make sense to me. In movies and tv they light every scene so as not to have real shadows because it looks bad if everything is dark. Same with reflections, they are minimized and even removed with cgi to make the shot better. I much prefer a more stylized and authered composition of a scene in a game.
The fact that Forza 5 looks astounding is testiment that RT is not nessecceray to make a great looking game. Game visuals have always been about using tricks and faking stuff to make it seem better than it actually is to save on processing budgets. These consoles are not able to deliver 4k 60fps with max settings and RT so as I said the cutbacks in resolution and effects is not worth it.
I've also seen in this thread and many other threads that some people swear a game has RT reflections because the reflections seem great. This shows that cheaper techniques can give great results, and that faking it is still probably the best option with the power available. Do non RT reflections and shadows look perfect? No, but they don't have to be. The fact that Forza 5 looks like one of the best looking games ever made is a testament to this.
The obsession with life like reflections and shadows doesn't really make sense to me. In movies and tv they light every scene so as not to have real shadows because it looks bad if everything is dark. Same with reflections, they are minimized and even removed with cgi to make the shot better. I much prefer a more stylized and authered composition of a scene in a game.
The fact that Forza 5 looks astounding is testiment that RT is not nessecceray to make a great looking game. Game visuals have always been about using tricks and faking stuff to make it seem better than it actually is to save on processing budgets. These consoles are not able to deliver 4k 60fps with max settings and RT so as I said the cutbacks in resolution and effects is not worth it.
I've also seen in this thread and many other threads that some people swear a game has RT reflections because the reflections seem great. This shows that cheaper techniques can give great results, and that faking it is still probably the best option with the power available. Do non RT reflections and shadows look perfect? No, but they don't have to be. The fact that Forza 5 looks like one of the best looking games ever made is a testament to this.
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Imtjnotu
Member
Tell me you're rich with out actually telling me you're rich
Something_something
Neo Member
The game looks great. Some people are talking about the lack of RT, but bearing in mind that there's only RT lite present on console games so far, it is to be expected.
The PS5 and XsX cannot even match a 2060S's raytracing performance, so let's not pretend one can enjoy the "full" RT suite anywhere but on PC.
The PS5 and XsX cannot even match a 2060S's raytracing performance, so let's not pretend one can enjoy the "full" RT suite anywhere but on PC.
Mr. PlayStation
Member
Wasn’t photo mode XSX biggest strengths for showing Ray tracing with higher frame rates? I mean didn’t digital foundry point out that the game Control has better frame rates when using photo mode with ray tracing turned on. So yeah perhaps those extra CUs have always been planned for photo mode ray tracing.
CityHunter1981
Member
I do not think the addition of ray tracing is possible in this game without sacrificing a ton of other stuff. This is a racing game where when at full speed driving the hardware will be pushed to its limits even without ray tracing. In other many other games you cannot move at this speed and therefore there is still some juice left for ray tracing.
DaGwaphics
Member
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DonJuanSchlong
Banned
To be fair there's alot more going on in Forza than GT7. Like ALOT more. Night and day difference between the two. Motorsport is Much better comparison, which undoubtedly will have raytracing in modes outside of forzavista.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
So much for me wanting to see Forza Motorsport 8.
DonJuanSchlong
Banned
I was on the boat on which I'd like to have first, and I eventually sided with horizon over motorsport. I generally play that series more, but it would have been fucking sick of both released around the same time!
DaGwaphics
Member
Absolutely. Especially in gaming, the total number of pixels per frame can have such a huge impact on performance that calling 2m pixels half of 8m would just be disingenuous.
Silent Viper
Banned
Environment not good for RT. No neon lights or anything. Even if they add RT, you will not see it during race when racing on mountain roads. You know what i mean
Silent Viper
Banned
M
Also Which open world game supports RT on any consoles ?
Mexico environment isnt suited for RT.
Also Which open world game supports RT on any consoles ?
Snowdonhoffen
Member
Watch Dogs Legion and both Spider-Man games. Not sure if there's another one.
l2ounD
Member
For sure, if only there where something shiny and reflective on screen as well, itll be perfect for RT.
You should check the previous page.
But I wonder if they can sneak RT into photomode, the RT in vista mode looks sweet. And hope they update the avatar people to not look so creepy in photos
Silent Viper
Banned
Oh yeah now i remember. Both got pretty low quality RT when compared to Cyberpunk and Metro on PC. Console RT is always bad and it ends up wasting resources. Rather focus on high fidelity and frame rate than RT.
But i get your point. Forza 5 environment not suited for RT and it will not wow. Its all desert and mountains mostly.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Sure, no water there, cars are completely matte (windshield included) and would never reflect the environment nor each other, light does not bounce in Mexico and light sources are never occluded (RT for lighting and ambient occlusion is somehow not needed in Mexico either), etc…
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Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Says you… not being as good as what an RTX 3090 can push through does not mean bad. Both the quality and performance RT modes in Spider-man and Ratchet are actually quite good quality, result certainly is. Play them sometimes
.
mansoor1980
Gold Member
they should at least add ray traced reflection on the cars during gameplay
ZywyPL
Banned
Video 2K is 1080p (1920x1080 instead of cinematic 2048x1080), but PC guys very often (incorrectly) refer to 2560x1440p as 2K, while 2.5K is more appropriate term, as per the 2560 horizontal pixels.
assurdum
Banned
Listen who talked. The Carmak of the nothing. You won't discuss about it for 3 pages if you were sure about tech stuff. I haven't any problem to admit when I was wrong differently to you. Most of your replies were about ask to Dictator, I won I'm right you are wrong loser, your english sucks, and when I asked to you what tech issue could cause CBR, ask to the others, ask to otherswell according to mr. graphics engineerassurdum over here quarter res CBR reflections look awful and therefor this can't be true.
I agree that this looks great and is enough... I really think he doesn't understand what is said in the video, or the article he linked.
I really thought I'm going crazy over here reading his responses... holy shit man.
but the reflections you think are blocky vs. the ones you think aren't don't really look different in the second pic you don't see any close up reflections. if you only compare the reflections near the front of the car, you don't really see a difference in quality to the first pic.
also what you see there is not the resolution of the reflections being blocky. RT reflections almost never actually reflect the higher quality versions of assets but usually render lower LOD models. because you have to remember that all the things rendered in the reflections need to be in RAM, actually reflecting high detail models would mean you can't cull anything off camera and the RAM and GPU usage would go throgh the roof.
this is the reason why in Watch Dogs for example, distant objects are not rendered and a basic reflection map is shown. Spider-Man on the other hand draws all the way to the horizon, but the models are extremely low detail
(I couldn't find a better image of Watch_Dogs for now)
Watch Dogs has higher quality models and textures in the reflections, while having a limited ray distance
while Spider-Man has very low quality models and textures in the reflections, while having endless ray distance
2 different approaches (I like the one in Spider-Man better since it suits an open world game better imo), but even in Watch Dogs the assets seen in reflections are not as high detail as assets outisde of them.
so in short, the leafs of that tree look blocky in the reflection not because of the render resolution of the reflections but because the tree is reflected as a lower detail model.
Ratchet & Clank tho is in fact extremely impressive, it has a pretty long (maybe infinite) ray distance and pretty high quality assets are reflected. it being not open world helps here a lot.
. Stop at least to give lesson of graphic tech because what you say it's very banal and known to almost everyone.
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Rea
Member
According to the game director of HZ FW, they do use RT in the game, but not for reflections.
Team Andromeda
Member
Did you watch the show?. The Series consoles were referenced like 6 times in the demonstration. I think it's pretty clear that it's Series X graphics on show.
Negotiator101
Member
Kenpachii
Member
Pretty much
Kenpachii
Member
Bernd Lauert
Banned
The concern trolling around no RT and photo mode is doubly funny once you realize that GT7 RT is something like 720p native and that 95% of R&C screenshots I see around the forum are from photo mode I also award an extra point for the "invisible RT" in Forbidden West.
FH5 is the best looking car game by far, with or without RT.
I also award an extra point for the "invisible RT" in Forbidden West.FH5 is the best looking car game by far, with or without RT.
supernova8
Banned
I'm probably just being cynical but do you reckon he said "ray tracing in forza vista" instead of "ray tracing in photo mode" so that this little detail would be conveniently hidden for the (judging by this thread alone) many people who have no idea what "forza vista" is?
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